cRPG
cRPG => Announcements => Topic started by: chadz on February 24, 2011, 03:07:10 am
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We have a new rule regarding admins + democracy (check out the subforum)
We've been thinking for some time how to make a fair compromise between players and admins.
We hereby present you the admin aBooze Forum.
These are the rules, they are STRICT, you might get warned, muted or banned for ignoring them!
A. Nomination Phase
The Nomination Phase looks like this: you accuse an admin of abuse. You have to state the reason. Do this by posting a new thread with the name of the admin in the thread title.
B. Nomination Phase, Part 2
Now you need people sharing your opinion on the abusing admin. You have to get 15 unique posters in here that share the dislike of the adminning action of above mentioned admin. They dont have to state a reason, it might help though. NO spam, NO chitter, also NO defending. Purely stating that you dislike an admin. The only exception is the accused admin - he may post 1! post on his defense. No discussing of the topic.
C. Voting phase
When 15 posts are reached, a public, anonymous vote will be started, that will run for 72 hours. After that time, admin status will be removed if 50% or more voted on removing him.
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It's a pretty cool addition, Chadrick.
The only problem is, the game now features playground politics like it never held before.
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Sounds good, I only hope I am doing a decent job and I cannot wait to see who goes onto the scaffold first,
also, cant it be abused by random assholes.. being assholes and just saying he dislikes the admin
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Sounds good, I only hope I am doing a decent job and I cannot wait to see who goes onto the scaffold first,
Well, it applies to EU only, so you have nothing to worry about. :D
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Hmm. So, I have a hypothetical scenario.
What if somebody thought that cRPG players had suffered under the tyranny of the EU admins for so long that they had become scared, too scared to use this amazing new system to criticise their evil government?
What if that one brave individual decided to encourage people out of their fear by doing nomination phase part one for everyone?
So (entirely hypothetically), would that (hypothetical) individual be in (hypothetical) danger of a (hypothetical) mute/ban if they (hypothetically) made a nomination thread for every single EU admin, including (hypothetically) chadz him/herself?
I'm just asking because someone who isn't me really wants to do that, and PM'd me with their concerns, which I am posting here.
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So (entirely hypothetically), would that (hypothetical) individual be in (hypothetical) danger of a (hypothetical) mute/ban if they (hypothetically) made a nomination thread for every single EU admin, including (hypothetically) chadz him/herself?
No (hypotetically).
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Its a conspiracy!
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I think this is a good thing.. very democratic coming from an eastern block game designer.. :-)
(live in poland studying at a polish university.. power abuse and zero power-criticism is so bad i ashamed on polands behalf.. )
Power should always be scrutinized, and this will keep us on our toes.
15 negative replies is actually a lot, so I dunno if they will ever be able to overthrow an admin though.. perhaps the only problem would be that some strong clans might get together and overthrow someone etc.. we'll see how this turns out :-)
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I think this is a brilliant idea, but I also think it will do just about nothing but backfire.
The majority of people who post on the forums are the people who have strong (even biased) opinions formed about just about every player.
I don't see these posts or votes staying fair or level headed enough to be anything more than an anti-popularity contest.
Nevermind, just saw it was an EU only thing. I'm not up on any of the euro stuff that goes on.
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Test case prepared. Lets see how this works.
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I dont believe there are a lot of abusive NA admins right?
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All I see right now is trolling. Way to go.
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Seems like real fun.
Also seems like this is better than strateguss... ok chadz, well done, now I give you my first awesome point
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I bet all admins who get a thread will get voted out. There are simply too many trolls in this community to implement a system like this.
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This is like a test... to see who remains not yet muted after a couple of days...
SO MANY WARNINGS TO HAND OUT T_T
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How about we can vote to perma-ban the people who start the threads?
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This is like a test... to see who remains not yet muted after a couple of days...
SO MANY WARNINGS TO HAND OUT T_T
Honestly, I don't think I've ever had so much fun playing a game before. It's amazing how many people are too stupid to read rules before they post.
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I offer any admin under charge to help him with his Apologia Post.
I can review, write and give general critique.
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I offer any admin under charge to help him with his Apologia Post.
I can review, write and give general critique.
Perhaps you don't get it, this isn't fun & games. Removal of administrative powers comes regardless of apologies.
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Perhaps you don't get it, this isn't fun & games. Removal of administrative powers comes regardless of apologies.
Because you are of inferior intellect you clearly do not know the difference between apologia and apology.
Not my problem! Try google it :D
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Because you are of inferior intellect you clearly do not know the difference between apologia and apology.
Not my problem! Try google it :D
Hmm thanks I just learned something, the more you know I suppose!
I had known of religious apologists but I did not know it stemmed from this
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Because you are of inferior intellect you clearly do not know the difference between apologia and apology.
Not my problem! Try google it :D
D'awww, that's cute :3
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Perhaps you don't get it, this isn't fun & games. Removal of administrative powers comes regardless of apologies.
Some sixteen year olds think they know everything!
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Oh my god, now there's two of those gay avatars (though one of them is edited :mrgreen: )! :shock:
Every time I see one of Balton's avatars I have the feeling... that I would have... to take a shower. Just for having seen this. :?
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So being admin is about being popular now? :shock:
This doesnt work: we have trolls, even among the mercs, who just +1 for the fun of it.
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I've handed out dozens of warnings already to people not abiding by the board rules... Seriously, READ THE RULES BEFORE POSTING THERE.
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yeah i will become troll admin than :)
but i promise to be good troll admin
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I've handed out dozens of warnings already to people not abiding by the board rules... Seriously, READ THE RULES BEFORE POSTING THERE.
Ya i guess I was one of those people
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I have a question in my mind:
Is it ok, that admins can vote against other admins ?
Don't forget to take also into account, that if (hypothetically :D)
- I am in like Shogunate, I have enough member, to vote out an admin (its conspiracy theory I know)
- I make 15 registration, then I can vote out any admin.
So, the rules need some refinement.
My ideas, think about it:
A) There are a very few über admins (chadz, cmpxchg, etc.), who can insta-kick admins
B) There are reliable players, who are mostly independent from each other.
- To kick out an admin, the 15 player long hate-list have to contain at least 2 reliable players.
- When an admin is about to kick out, other admins have to answer this yes-no question:
"Do the list have at least 2 reliable players?". We don't need a fix list of reliable players,
admins can recognize them, and with this step we include some control into the process.
Again: the question is not "Who are reliable players on this list?", but we ask only yes-no.
- If ~50% of admins accept the list, then über admins have the right to remove the admins.
- ofc., A) point can be used anytime during the process.
I think this little complexity is acceptable, because it wont happen in every week (hopefully)
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I have a question in my mind:
Is it ok, that admins can vote against other admins ?
Don't forget to take also into account, that if (hypothetically :D)
- I am in like Shogunate, I have enough member, to vote out an admin (its conspiracy theory I know)
- I make 15 registration, then I can vote out any admin.
So, the rules need some refinement.
My ideas, think about it:
A) There are a very few über admins (chadz, cmpxchg, etc.), who can insta-kick admins
B) There are reliable players, who are mostly independent from each other.
- To kick out an admin, the 15 player long hate-list have to contain at least 2 reliable players.
- When an admin is about to kick out, other admins have to answer this yes-no question:
"Do the list have at least 2 reliable players?". We don't need a fix list of reliable players,
admins can recognize them, and with this step we include some control into the process.
Again: the question is not "Who are reliable players on this list?", but we ask only yes-no.
- If ~50% of admins accept the list, then über admins have the right to remove the admins.
- ofc., A) point can be used anytime during the process.
I think this little complexity is acceptable, because it wont happen in every week (hopefully)
There's only one weak spot in that system... Admins can support each other to never say there are reliable players. Maybe it's better if players vote for a limited number reliable players, that could fire admins in the same fashion as every player can currently.
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Thatswhy I have included the "über admin" option.
The problem is that its not easy to maintain a vote for reliable players.
Yes, maybe we need the following hierarchy (from strongest to weakest):
1) über admins
2) reliable players (ofc they cant make own decisions, they are only affected in the previously mentioned process.
3) common admins
4) players
and we need to make a fixed list of both admins and reliable players.
EDIT:
But damn.. how to make that reliable player list.
I mean, imho there are obvious names:
Phyrex, Tommy, KenDo, Phazh, (!!Bjord NOT!!) etc. who are serious players, I personally trust their word.
Actually, lets say guy A makes this list by collecting other's tips,
but !!guy A himself have to know the players on the list!!
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- I make 15 registration, then I can vote out any admin.
No. Try reading the op again.
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The whole idea of voting out admins is flawed and should be removed, since most admins are part of clans and stuff ingame(which is another big no-no to admining, i know, sorry.) it becomes too personal people use there opinions to base judgement from.
You should make senior admins to monitor the newer admins and help them see what there doing right or wrong, the senior admins need to be hand picked by chadz, be people he trusts to be fair with the rules he places on the servers. As of right now all thats forming is a rift between players and admins and sooner or later all admins will be voted on and and probably voted to be removed, most the people that will be checking the threads will be people with a grudge against an admin.
You'll never have everyone happy with an admin democratically selected or not, there will always be those against and those for, the problem is those that are against are normally more vocal about it.
Just a note: I'm not an admin, not a friend to anyone that is an admin and not part of any clan, these are my points of view on the subject.
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- I make 15 registration, then I can vote out any admin.
> get found out by IP or otherwise
> have your cRPG vault permanently wiped
> ???
> worth it
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This system is plainly flawed. The admin should be allowed unlimited defensive posts. One post in defense is a joke. Unlimited users are allowed to post their hateful anti admin posts subsequent to any defense post by the admin in question. As it is, the system allows for unlimited anti admin posts, no pro admin amicus posts to show that the anti admin posts might be false or misleading, and only one single admin defense post which undoubtably will be followed by many anti admin posts that the admin can not address.
Solution:
Unlimited Admin defense posts.
Pro admin posts by other users to counter the anti admin users. 3/4's majority required for a removal.
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The admin can edit their first post. Allowing pro-admin users to "counter" would turn the whole thread into a big mess. And if you allow that, then everyone needs to have unlimited posts. Your suggested system is a lot more flawed.
Edit: and posting that in the wooki thread will get you warned/muted and the post deleted.
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The admin can edit their first post. Allowing pro-admin users to "counter" would turn the whole thread into a big mess. And if you allow that, then everyone needs to have unlimited posts. Your suggested system is a lot more flawed.
Edit: and posting that in the wooki thread will get you warned/muted and the post deleted.
Hell, I could get any admin i want removed right now with this system. The thread would be a big mess. And it should. This is messy stuff. In this system you just edit out most evidence against the abuse in question. Editing posts doesn't work so well as you might think. People used to reading forums read from the bottom. They may never read the admins post again to see if it is edited. Also, editing a pre post to address post ones is counter inuitive and may be ignored or not really understood.
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How exactly would you go about removing any admin right now? You understand that getting those 15 votes isn't enough, right?
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all it takes is a nomination. There are hundreds of trolls here. It's like if i walked around with a petition to legalize throwing manure at others. I'm sure i could get 15 people to sign it.
Look at Balton's threads. He has already nominated 2 admins and is well on his way to getting 15 for PTX. Then it goes to polls. Internet polls? The option that usually wins those is always something like "bewbs". Definitely needs like 75% of votes for removal, 50% is not hard to get.
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Yeah, so? The real voting begins after the 15 +1s have been gathered.
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This thread makes me cry.
Physically
Mentally
Spiritually.
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unfortunately, the 15 +1 WILL be gathered. do you really think there arent 15 butt hurt kids out there pissed off at PTX because he ACTUALLY DID HIS JOB, and they deserved to be banned? just look at the banned threads. Most of them are rediculous, and those guys deserved to be booted. I have heard better and more logically presented arguments from convicted criminals who were clearly guilty. Just read any of the completely illogical posts by Grey in his hillarious read from last week when he was banned for being racist.
Most of these retards actually believe they were wronged.
Opening up the admins to a public forum for voting just creates a whole new host of problems. these admin issues should just be settled privately and quietly with moderators and the victims. Democracy clearly doesnt work in situations like this. Even the US doesnt let the public vote on removal of officials. It is settled behind closed doors by a panel of appointed officers who sole job is the research of that particular issue.
edit: this is like letting prisoners vote on whether to get the judge and lawers who sent him to prison fired. patently rediculous.
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"Even the US.." is a rather shitty argument. If anything, if the US does it then any organization that wants to be effective should do the opposite.
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We should elect some kind of "council of elders" with seasoned players, known by the community for their participation, which means their forum activity. I know this sounds stupid on the first glance, but I think you can check very well if someone is suited (or not) for an elder role by simply looking at the posts he is writing. Only few people with many posts are constantly trolling. All the rest is pretty interested in participating in the community life, so you can assume they would make good elders.
THOSE are the people who should vote if an admin gets demoted or not, and not some random "omfg lmao +1 for aboooooooooze!!!!!11111" internet retards, which seem to reproduce expontentially in any part/aspect of the internet. :?
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"Even the US.." is a rather shitty argument. If anything, if the US does it then any organization that wants to be effective should do the opposite.
Troll less, and maybe I would care what you have to say.
If you bothered to read the context of the statement instead of stopping after those three words, you would understand the subtext of what was printed in my statement. Namely that pure democracy for the sake of public opinion is just anarchy and chaos. Even Plato thought democracy was a joke, and insisted that a head of state was needed, because by and large.... People are stupid.
And the United States, which touts our liberal democracy as a voice of the people, isn't even stupid enough to poll the public as to whether we should remove an official from office. The last say is always within a panel that is hand selected for the purpose of investigation. end of story.
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What makes you think I care about you caring?
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I don'Ät like the thing I can't support an admin, I made such a post , it got deleted and since them I'm being watched.
For supporting an admin.
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We need a "how to remove a moderator", too :mrgreen:
No, really, if it really happened the way you described it, it's a shame. Okay, perhaps your post didn't belong there for some reason, and perhaps they decided to keep those threads clean and clear, but it's no reason to put you on "watched". :?
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Board rules are what they are. Breaking them earns you a 25% warn and your post deleted.
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I don'Ät like the thing I can't support an admin, I made such a post , it got deleted and since them I'm being watched.
For supporting an admin.
This is so true.
It's fine though, no need to worry any longer, for I am going to set up the International Society for the Protection from Cruelty to Admins (ISPCA).
For just £10 a week, you can stop people from treating game-admins with contempt.
For just £15 a week, you can stop one admin from being nominated for a whole year!
For just £40 a week, you can get the admin abooze sub-forum locked.
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This system is total crap, at first it supports a whole shitload of accusations wheter justified and true, or not. Second you cannot defend admins, and everyone is watched nwo because the system is like Stasi, and you cannot expect the cRPG community to be serious about all that stupid troll admin polls.
Greets Quirian
the watched!
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Board rules are what they are. Breaking them earns you a 25% warn and your post deleted.
So why did I get 30 percent for:
January 31, 2011, 07:05:49 posting disgustingly vulgar image +30
Not that this is interesting anymore :(
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When is wookie's poll starting ?
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So why did I get 30 percent for:
Not that this is interesting anymore :(
???
By board, i mean the admin abuse board.
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???
By board, i mean the admin abuse board.
ptx, you don't have to take their anger and contempt! We at the ISPCA protect helpless, abused admins/moderators like yourself.
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ptx, you don't have to take their anger and contempt! We at the ISPCA protect helpless, abused admins/moderators like yourself.
I can has join ISPCA?
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I can has join ISPCA?
Yes, for only the small price of £25 a week.
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Okay, thx for making some things clearer to me ptx. Still the admin thingy is stupid.
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I think posters like Balton should be banned from posting on that board. He makes up 50% of the topics made on that section of the forum and it is clear that he makes them out of rage because he was banned for being a douche.
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I think posters like Balton should be banned from posting on that board. He makes up 50% of the topics made on that section of the forum and it is clear that he makes them out of rage because he was banned for being a douche.
First time I agree with Trippinz
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Hey, if you wanna support me or wooki, you could say why you support me here:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2530.60.html
Also, the more people on the servers who vote, the easier it is to outvote the ragers, so make ur friends vote. If enough non-ragers vote, Ill easily get a majority of no-voters. :)
And remember to vote!
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visitors can't see pics , please register or login
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Hey, if you wanna support me or wooki, you could say why you support me here:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2530.60.html
Also, the more people on the servers who vote, the easier it is to outvote the ragers, so make ur friends vote. If enough non-ragers vote, Ill easily get a majority of no-voters. :)
And remember to vote!
You're going down Lily, down in flames.
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You're going down Lily, down in flames.
And rise again in the flames of a Phoenix! :mrgreen:
Lilith has more supporters then naysayers I think.
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I suggest adding a timelimit for B.Nomination phase, part2, otherwise after a couple of days/weeks any admin that gets a thread will eventually get the 20 posts required for the poll.
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I suggest adding a timelimit for B.Nomination phase, part2, otherwise after a couple of days/weeks any admin that gets a thread will eventually get the 20 posts required for the poll.
I suggest 1 week. Additionally, Admins should have an immunity of 3 or 6 months after a failed poll/post count if they retain their positions.
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I suggest 1 week. Additionally, Admins should have an immunity of 3 or 6 months after a failed poll/post count if they retain their positions.
However such immunity could be misused ;)
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However such immunity could be misused ;)
And at the next cycle after it ends, they would burn merrily and be removed.
Immunity in my opinion is needed to keep an irrate troll (or group) from repeating instantly a petition and cluttering up the forum with useless topics in an important area. Even a 1 month immunity would work I think.
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It's a shame Lillith will stand tall after this and Chewbacca (even though i voted yes) will fall.
THIS IS ALL RIGGED DAMMIT! :o
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I would assume this doesn't depend on their capabiliies as admins at all, but only on their person. And as Wookie is a troll, and didn't use to take common players serious, he will now pay for it.
I don't know if this is good or bad, as on one hand of course admins should only be judged in their administration, on the other hand admins should always serve as models. :?
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I nominate to remove all admins. Reason is there is certain someone who would like to share CRUCIAL information, but they can't under threat of ban. When there are no more admins, He will come and we will build a temple.
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I nominate to remove all admins. Reason is there is certain someone who would like to share CRUCIAL information, but they can't under threat of ban. When there are no more admins, He will come and we will build a temple.
Like u and me xd
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ahg, pokey stick joker, how i miss him...
yuhmaz, plz talk to erdogan so he finances c_rpg for bannerlord?