Author Topic: We Are Reverting  (Read 36001 times)

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Offline Rico

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We Are Reverting
« on: March 21, 2016, 10:23:31 pm »
+47
After taking playtesting and community feedback into consideration, we would like to announce that the recent changes to ranged will be reverted. The pinnacle of un-balance is the discovery that the current War Composite Bow (previous Horn Bow) with its 23c and 6 requirement deals the same damage as the Arbalest if used with a STR archery build corresponding to meta. Compare reload time, slots, upkeep and tier, and it becomes evident that something is very wrong here. The only people who currently play crossbow do so out of style or because they are unaware of the fact that archery is strictly more powerful in the current balance, not because they face fair trade-offs compared to archers.

The new balance creates more problems than it solves. The old crossbow system used 4WM for Hunting Crossbow, 5WM for Light Crossbow, 6WM for Crossbow, 7WM for Heavy Crossbow and 8WM for Arbalest of WPF investment into crossbow to get the most narrow crosshair size possible. None of the crossbows were pin-point accurate. This transparent increase of requirements used to be sophisticated and easy to understand; the absence of pin-point accuracy retained a certain player-skill requirement to use crossbows over large distances, and fairness. This system has been abolished with the change of damage and accuracy values on crossbows. Currently, you dump around 125 wpf into crossbow, and you can use any of them with pin-point accuracy. This is plain bullshit and not offset by increased STR requirements.

The already cancerous STR archer meta is further promoted by the increase of bow requirements. If you increase the requirement of a bow, you buff it. Keep in mind that you can skill up to 4 PD more than the requirement to get 14% bonus damage per PD. With PD increasing accuracy since the Tydeus Era, there is no reason not to always skill PD exceeding the bow requirement you are using by 4. With 7 PD requirement bows available, every archer skills 11 PD to max out damage on all bows, and won't face any malus other than the opportunity cost of not having more athletics. This opportunity cost is not very high since the weight on quivers makes kiting impossible in the first place. 7 PD requirement bows and PD increasing accuracy are pure madness. The result is an archer who hits as hard as an Arbalest user with similar accuracy, but at 6 or 7 times the rate of fire.

Although we highly appreciate the work Raylin has put into contributing to cRPG and would like to emphasize that the majority of the new items since revival patch were made thanks to his tireless efforts, we realized that it is not economic to keep working with his balance patch. cRPG is facing a difficult crisis due to the broken compiler and unavailable devs, and especially at a time like this, we cannot let internal politics undermine the progress of the mod. Permanently compromising balance to express gratitude for the outstanding work he has done in the past is no option.

The balance experiment has been an excellent attempt to improve the mod and provided important new perspectives on which changes are possible, but given the current state on the servers and the community's reactions, we have to put it ad acta as a failed experiment. Instead of breaking a somewhat functional balance in one swoop and dedicating resources to progressively making the unbalanced state balanced again, we go back to what we had before and make minor adjustments where needed.

We would like to discuss these minor adjustments with you.

(1) Since the change of the leveling system, no STR-requirements have been adjusted. Nightingale and me are working on this right now. High-agility builds with fast weapons threaten to break animations and make combat less enjoyable. Increasing requirements is one way to avoid this. In the past, STR used to be your ticket for using heavy armor. This is no longer the case. But it will be again. We are looking forward to your input once the STR-requirements patch is online. Right now, point (1) is more of an announcement than an invitation to discuss; but we'll have the discussion later.

(2) Fast-paced combat makes the game interesting, but high levels and weapon speed stats only work with correct sweetspots in the animations. We observed that many players block based on expectation instead of observation, since the window of observation is short and the relative position of the enemy gives away the most likely attack direction. In other words, blocks tend to be preemptive instead of reactive, because as soon as you actually observe the attack direction, you are most likely already hit. New players do not have any expectation, which makes the learning curve unnecessarily steep for them. Experienced players will notice difficulties to keep up the pace in combats with weapons of slightly varying speed, such as MW Crusader Sword vs Iberian Mace. Go to duel and try it. The Crusader Sword seems infinitely faster due to the interaction between the slightly higher speed and the early sweetspots.

A possible remedy is going back to the pre Tydeus-era sweetspots, meaning that most attacks connect with the enemy's body later in the animation than right now. As a result, the animation is as fast as before, but it won't seem anymore like you have been hit way too early, before you had the time to get the block up, although you identified the attack direction correctly. The old sweetspots have the downside that some attacks tend to bounce off armor if you have the incorrect positioning and speed bonus. Take onehanded as an example: The leftswing and overhead stayed the same. The pre-Tydeus rightswing was a slow, strong and wide attack that received the highest damage if it connected late in the animation, like it still is in Native. Now, the rightswing is exactly like the leftswing; a fast, near instantly connecting hit. Same for the stab. The pre-Tydeus stab used to be higher damage (all stabbing swords had more damage than they have now), but it took time to build up. There was a short delay in preparing the stab and executing the part of the animation that connected with the enemy's body, meaning that stabs used to be best when they hit the target late. Now they are connecting instantly and never bouncing off the armor even though you are standing way too close to the enemy. The element of strategic timing (as well as the very rewarding holding of the left mouse button for higher damage) in the rightswing and stab have been overwritten and now underlie the same spam mechanics as the rest of the combat. Post-Tydeuus, you are trying to hit the enemy faster than he can react, instead of provoking him into reacting with the wrong block direction.

Since sweetspots and combat animations are a very controversial topic and subjective to bias, it is an absolute necessity to discuss this topic before implementing anything at all. What are your opinions on the topic? Is there anything that needs to be clarified before you want to answer?

Edit: grammar
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 11:21:01 pm by Rico »
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Offline Utrakil

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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2016, 10:42:41 pm »
+6
A big thank you for one of the best "devblogs" I have seen for a long time.
It's nice to get some insight in what you guys are thinking and planning.


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Offline sF_Guardian

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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2016, 10:52:06 pm »
-6
Why the fuck would you revert x-bow into its op state? X-bows are perfectly fine in the current state, just archery is op.
I mean seriously, at least keep the STR requirements at the current level.
No sane person will want those fuckin agi arbalest runners back that take 90% of your health with one shot.
I'd actually go as far as accusing you of making decisions guided by selfish reasons here Rico.

And please, please dont revert the melee combat, it's really not that hard to block attacks and old 1H right swing was shitty imo.

P.S. Please move this to general discussion so people actually read it.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 11:06:27 pm by sF_Guardian »
I don't want to give a feedback to molly neither i want to ban him,I wanted to give advise high authorities to take his admin rights.Panos you monkey wrench where would u put this topic enlighten me you cancer fuck.

Offline Rico

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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2016, 11:07:53 pm »
+6
I mean seriously, at least keep the STR requirements at the current level.
Yeah, that's part of adjusting STR requirements to the new levels. No 15/33 15/36 Arbalest runners intended.

Why the fuck would you revert x-bow into its op state? X-bows are perfectly fine in the current state, just archery is op.
They are all too accurate and their stats are too similar, meaning they don't have the different roles they had in the past.

The OPness of the past state was already declining with increased levels and armor looms for everyone but constant xbow damage values. If it was intended to keep crossbows in their previous strong position, the MW Arbalest + MW Steel Bolts damage would have been increased from 100 to around 110 to reflect increased levels and the vast presence of armor looms. Most players loom their weapons first, but after hundreds of giveaways, flashsales, and the long grinding time this mod is around, it is safe to assume that 90%+ of the active population have at least one fully loomed heavy armor set. The time where 100 damage hit a level 31 character in unloomed armor are over; now it's 100 damage with reduced armor penetration attributes, a level 37+ character and a fully loomed set in an ironflesh meta.

As I said above, the STR requirements will still reflect the level patch. But the remaining stats will be reverted, primarily to regain the WM requirement curve, the non-pinpoint accuracy and making lower-tier crossbows usable due to old trajectory and reload time.

Edit: Feel free to link to this thread in General Discussion, but I won't move it because people need to learn to browse other relevant sections as well. We don't have the Game Balance section to discuss balance in General Discussion.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 11:18:24 pm by Rico »
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Offline sF_Guardian

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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2016, 11:14:06 pm »
0
(click to show/hide)

Keeping the STR requirements is at least something. Even though I still dont really agree with the decision is makes it easier for me to deal with it. Thanks for carification.
Also I don't think the majority of players is lvl 37+. Everyone pretty much has a fully loomed set of armor but some ppl. are still retiring.
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Offline Rhekimos

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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2016, 11:20:52 pm »
+1
Interesting. Thanks for taking your time to communicate these.

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2016, 11:42:48 pm »
+5
(click to show/hide)

I feel as if these would change little, at least some of them.

1. Strength is definitely the stronger attribute already, im sure most people base their builds off str just like me. Ive been a hardcore agility player for the entire mod up to like 2014/early 15, and i will probably not go back since agility builds now are basically "fun" builds, not necessarily good builds. Armor crutching being a huge part of the game now isnt based on it being accessible, its that its so fucking good. With a str build, some ironflesh and a loomed heavy armor you can take a ton of hits unless you get unlucky. Basically everyone is running around in heavy/plate armor these days, and quick pickoffs just arent a thing, if you are equal in numbers, but enemies have more armor, they probably push through because they simply tank spam and deal more damage, its hard to deal with. I'd suggest an overall melee damage increase, i think it could be fun to have some punishing hits, kind of like the old days before armor soak system was changed. Maybe it wont be as fun in the long run, dying super quickly might be annoying, but then again you would also kill most people quickly.

2. I active block, i dont expect block, if anything thats what i would assume new players do, panic block one direction after theyve swung and then attempt to correct it if its wrong. I wouldnt be against some changes to the speeds of the game, but it already feels slow many times tbh.

3. Dont revert the new 1h swings, they are actually buffs to the weapon that i feel is lower tier than pole/2h. Right swing isnt like a left swing, it has some potential for early hits but its definitely used for range mainly. Very good swing, i absolutely loved the update that added it. The stab is pretty damn good too, and it should be! The previous one was, afaik, clunky, short and just not that good. Id rather have a good stab than a bad one. Do not revert pls, 1h needs their animations, theyre already behind on damage.

If you want more glancing and more high power hits, then you need to change the armor soak values that were fiddled with way back when. But, as i remember, the change was needed and made the game much more enjoyable.
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Offline Nehvar

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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2016, 12:00:14 am »
+5
Would reverting to the old leveling system be a possibility?  It seems like it would go a long way to solving balance issues.
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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2016, 12:39:48 am »
+1
Would reverting to the old leveling system be a possibility?  It seems like it would go a long way to solving balance issues.

Not possible.
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Offline mcdeath

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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2016, 12:46:05 am »
+2
Something I noticed with the recent xbow change was that it took me 8 seconds to reload my +3 hunting xbow with 177 wpf. I also enjoy playing HX from time to time and it took 16 seconds with 177 wpf. I don't know how relpad speeds are for the other crossbows but the hunting crossbow shouldn't take that long to reload.
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Offline Asheram

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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2016, 12:51:02 am »
0
When is this happening? Can we get a respec so I can use my hx build that I always used til the last xbow reload speed nerf ? I just used my free respec yesterday and if I wasn't so far into 37 I would just do a penalized respec.
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Offline Rico

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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2016, 01:04:02 am »
+13
an inbuilt option to give a global free respec and a global free heirloom exchange are planned but we must see how we get there
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Offline Rebelyell

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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2016, 01:06:36 am »
+7
I totally agree with sweet spots of animation. Instahits are bad in terms of balance and gameplay, It make you feel like armor do not protect you, game is more based on low ping and it feels way more laggy.

I also agree with str requirements, new lvl meta shifted from 18 18 to 21 21.

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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2016, 01:10:29 am »
+1
Oh man, revert the 1h stab for the love of everything that is holy

Edit: Revert it to Native, that is.
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Re: We Are Reverting
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2016, 01:20:39 am »
0
btw that really should be in general discussion
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