Author Topic: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read  (Read 4909 times)

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Offline Algarn

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2014, 11:36:45 am »
+1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_ddb3TC2ts

This is a video of a fallen tournament. Look at the bows they were using, and look at the ammount of arrows they had in their quivers, and the number of arrows they had to fire to make a kill.
How could people survive against this fucking op range pls nerf till now ? Ranged is OP when it's protected by the team, but left alone, it's more or less some meat, without any chance to win against two ennemies. I would like to have more than a slight chance to win against more than 1 person comming at me, knowing they can dodge arrows, take 4/5/6 of them before going down, and if they reach me, I gotta kill them with 32 wpf and 5 PS.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 11:40:21 am by Algarn »

Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2014, 05:48:31 pm »
+1
Ranged is OP because cav keeps getting nerfed into the ground.
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Offline Krex

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2014, 06:28:18 pm »
0
Ranged is OP because cav keeps getting nerfed into the ground.
This.
Archers complain about beeing UP now?So you want to kill my courser with 1 instead of 3 arrows?...
Same for throwers,my horsie often gets killed 2-4 snowflakes,thats just a joke.
Quote from: Tomeusz link=topic=45416.msg717346#msg717346
horse just standing on 2 feets and does "yhohohohoh".

Offline Algarn

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2014, 06:29:47 pm »
+2
Funny, because the ones archery is OP as fuck actually did not play much, or at all archery, or any kind of "ranged".

Offline Admerius

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2014, 04:40:06 pm »
0
Quote from: San
...

Damn, I'm a misfit:
BOB: He likes to propose all manner of changes to add new functions, most of them aren't that bad from a hardcore-realistic point of view, but if they are added on top of the current game mechanics they would triple the workload for the balance-team. The spirit in which they are given isn't bad, just as letting a very happy and playful dog into a convention for "World record in most complex domino setup" isn't bad...

Offline Kafein

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2014, 06:52:20 pm »
0
The signaling is strong in this one.

Offline San

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2014, 08:34:23 pm »
0
"Balance is a subtractive design element: The combined removal of unfairness, polarization, and homogenization.

Like most subtractive design elements, it is strictly and objectively good, but can never make a game good or fun by itself.

It only preserves the fun added by other elements (in this case content/build variety) from degenerating."

Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2014, 03:01:12 am »
0
Basically San just said to stop nerfing and removing everything.
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Offline sWalker

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2014, 07:59:37 am »
+2
So San, when are you going to heed your own words and end the "unfairness." The sWalker is the greatest archer to ever live, but that means nothing when it takes 6 arrows(+3 longbow and bodkins) to kill a 2 hander that moves faster than an agi build from a year ago wearing heavy armor...that then proceeds to one shot the sWalker in +3 body armor...tell me how that strikes you as fair San...if you think it is, say so...otherwise fix it and maintain it so that the adjusted arrow damage still kills a horse in roughly 3 body shots.

Offline Smoothrich

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2014, 07:10:58 pm »
+7
I think most balancing in cRPG is misguided really. I know there's good stats on server damage per weapon that I used to see but haven't in a while, you should post that  if you can still get copies of it San.

Too many cRPG players are real narrow-focused and attached to specific builds and playstyles over years, all viewed in a weird black hole of unorganized pubbie play mixed in with banner stacking 5 year warband vets dominating, if any still even really play.

Everytime I play there is no one inventing any new playstyles, challenging my understanding of Warband combat, playing in some distinct way that inspires other people to get better. That shit was everywhere when cRPG was new. If I ever play now its like I am a relic from some ancient glorious classical peak of cRPG, shredding faceless hordes of mediocre white noise players who are all trapped in the dark ages of scrubdom, never evolving to step out of the promordial ooze.

A sense of competition has disappeared completely from the mod. People who have innate fundamental grasp of Warband mechanics, comparing and contrasting other rival player's decisions, adapting and discovering new bullshit to stomp people with and making it look cool.

Basically, without a competitive scene, all the competitive players will just get tired of shredding terrible players and leave the game for something else. Games with changing metas, differering opinions, organized teams or solo competitions where flavor of the weekers can actually show how to dominate doing something different or copying someone else.

I'm pretty sure Rohypnol alone has caused more balance changes than anything else, cuz he's one of those consistently shit stomping the server dudes and makes mechanics that seem easy or weak with regular players, suddenly become the most rage inducing OP unfair shit in the game. People would impersonate him and start trends with his HX performances. HX would get nerfed. He'd figure out some new build and loadout and immediately return to the same power level until nerfed again, etc.

Like it was all just balancing around some real good player pubstomping bads. Doesn't accomplish much except feed into expectations, reduce skill ceilings of classes or playstyles, drive good players away, bland up the gameplay.

Now if all the effort in skullfucking animations and raising or reducing the same stats on the same weapons every few months was instead used in buffing counters to current popular builds and making game modes or events that got competitive minded people in a competitive environment to demonstrate what really seems to be overpowered or what is just not understood and meta-countered yet.. you'd probably have something more like Dota than fucking cRPG.

Why I hope Melee Battlegrounds has twitch tv crap so good players can easily stream and people can copy their builds and playstyles and evolve community understanding of counters and interplay and shit maybe more naturally. Way cRPG has always been run "skill" is a lost metric in a sea of confirmation bias, claims of corrupt lobbyists or balancers only knowing 1 class, etc etc whining and bitching. When the only thing in balance discussions that matters should be what actual good players do or don't do. Who wins the most doing what and why? Not who posts the most bullshit.
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Offline lombardsoup

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2014, 07:29:03 pm »
+5
Was under the impression that the mod is unbalanced on purpose for the sake of hilarity, QQ, and rage

Offline Smoothrich

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2014, 07:36:45 pm »
+5
Was under the impression that the mod is unbalanced on purpose for the sake of hilarity, QQ, and rage

It was more like that years ago, but every balance patch was too focused on nerfing popular things that people bitched about, gradually making people use cookie cutter builds and removing controversial playstyles and shit with hardcoded limitations.

The idea of wildly different unconventional overpowered playstyles all balancing each other out is my idea of good balance, but this mod has gone way in the wrong direction on it over years of cumulative changes that just lowered skill ceilings instead of making them always increase.
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Offline Bronto

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2014, 01:03:23 am »
-1
So San, when are you going to heed your own words and end the "unfairness." The sWalker is the greatest archer to ever live, but that means nothing when it takes 6 arrows(+3 longbow and bodkins) to kill a 2 hander that moves faster than an agi build from a year ago wearing heavy armor...that then proceeds to one shot the sWalker in +3 body armor...tell me how that strikes you as fair San...if you think it is, say so...otherwise fix it and maintain it so that the adjusted arrow damage still kills a horse in roughly 3 body shots.

This entirely. It's what I've been saying in all the other threads. You can't fight them in melee because you've got maybe 70 wpf and they've got at least 140 with 10PS and even with all that armor still weigh less than the average archer with two quivers, a longbow, and light to medium armor. Or they're like 15/30 in plate with 10ath but who cares. Nerf archers because it totally should take 5 arrows to kill a rouncey and 3 headshots to someone in plate. Hell I shot a guy, back when I had looms, with a mW yumi bow and bodkins four times right in the head and he still killed me in melee lol.

Edit: I'm currently testing out a 24/21 pure archer and will report back with my results or just contact you directly San. I will say this though, so far so good. The aim is ridiculous just wish I had more arrows ;).
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 02:50:14 am by Bronto »

Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2014, 02:59:21 pm »
+3

Reintroduce effective cav to save the mod.   Nerfing cav (wolves) into the ground has caused overpopulation of the ranged (elks) and caused overgrazing of the infantry (flora.)

The change in riding requirement was a good change, but nerfing cav while buffing ranged melee abilities was a horrible idea.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 05:17:16 pm by MURDERTRON »
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Offline RandomDude

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Re: "Everybody Hates Balance" -- Good Read
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2014, 11:29:24 am »
0
First i thought I was Spike. Then I read it and thought I was definitely not Spike or Johnny. I thought I might be Timmy but I'm not Timmy either.

I prefer to play one way, because I think big swords and plate armour is awesome. I remember it taking me a long time to decide it was ok to spend a skill point and buy a shield (back when you could carry flamberge in your pocket, and black armour/barbutte was all the rage in Fallen).

I was tired of getting shot up and hiding, and having a board shield helped a lot. It just meant I could continue playing hvy armour/2h.

That's a Timmy way of playing, right? But then the hate vs Gates/Bush/Police/Parents I don't identify with.

I guess having only 3 archetypes is too limiting.