Author Topic: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim  (Read 7004 times)

0 Members and 10 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Jona

  • Balancer
  • *
  • Renown: 1372
  • Infamy: 376
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Bishop
  • OG Agi Whore
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Hounds of Chulainn
  • Game nicks: Jona, Siegafried
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2014, 09:40:35 am »
+5
Perfect example of balancer problem just now in battle. My teams top 3 guys all had higher scores/KDRs than the opponents top player on a 15v15 server. I know that the top guys were all relatively high level on my side as well, so maybe the high levels on the other team simply weren't pulling their own weight, or they didn't exist. Can't say for sure, but I can say that obviously being high level doesn't mean shit in this game. It only adds more potential to get a higher score. Same goes for looms. Anyone can have a full set of +3s if they have played enough, or have generous friends, but it doesn't mean that they can put them to use properly. In my opinion there should be three factors to consider when balancing the teams: score and KDR, which arguably are almost the same thing, and then class. The only reason class should matter is so that one team is not all ranged and cav and the other all melee footsoldiers. Not saying that cav or ranged is OP, per se, just that from a fun standpoint it is far better to have the same ratio of classes on each side.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


"I'll have my lance aimed at Jona's knees and he'll jump up, run up my lance and kill me." -Dalfador

Offline Elindor

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1178
  • Infamy: 158
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Caelitus mihi vires
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Order of the Holy Guard
  • Game nicks: Elindor
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2014, 09:34:12 pm »
+2
Bump
Elindor, Archon of the Holy Guard
Holy Guard Thread :HERE
Banner Shop : HERE // Map Thread : HERE

Offline San

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Renown: 1456
  • Infamy: 143
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • 1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
    • View Profile
    • My youtube Brawl videos
  • Faction: Chaos
  • Game nicks: San_of_Chaos
  • IRC nick: San
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2014, 10:39:13 pm »
+2
List of commands if needed

http://pastebin.com/nLBUADRB
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 10:48:01 pm by San »

Offline Vanthor

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 62
  • Infamy: 3
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Literally
  • Game nicks: Literally_Vanthor,Literally_Locke
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2014, 09:43:45 pm »
+7
Ok, so I've managed to collect up some data:
  • I've input the top 21 players from each team for 20 matches (and growing!) evenly split between EU and NA
  • This gives me roughly ~= 840 individual player match (player,score,kills,deaths,rounds won).
  • Which in turn gives me aggregate data on 516 unique players (player,total score, total kills, total death, total rounds,score per round).
  • I filtered this on players who I had at least 3 matches for. This gave me about 71 players. Not the greatest dataset, but data entry takes time

From this, I was able to determine that there is a linear relationship between a players score per round and their average k/d.
average_score_per_round = 3.46 * average_kd + 4.40
The average score value should be correct to with +-30%

So if we want to get the auto-balancer to stop being level dependent, I propose we change the script_cf_crpg_autobalance_get_level to be the following.
(click to show/hide)

Breakdown in story form (See Sir_TryHard post):
(click to show/hide)

And for those of you who just want to see the results:
PlayerOriginal ValueNew Value
Sir_TryHard_CarriesAlot636100
ArcherWith300Ping65429.25

And again, I'd like to that Sniger for providing me we the EU screenshots. Ill be posting some comparisons of how those two algorithms perform in a bit.

Offline Vanthor

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 62
  • Infamy: 3
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Literally
  • Game nicks: Literally_Vanthor,Literally_Locke
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2014, 09:53:35 pm »
+5
And the aggregate data (more to come)
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 03:19:56 pm by Vanthor »

Offline Elindor

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1178
  • Infamy: 158
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Caelitus mihi vires
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Order of the Holy Guard
  • Game nicks: Elindor
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2014, 06:20:16 am »
+1
Interesting Vanthor, I'm glad that Archerwith300ping is no longer scoring higher than TryHardCarriesALot to the balancer....that is definitely an improvement!

- What's everyone think about this?
- Are there other things you'd like to tweak Vanthor or is this all you think needs done?
- What is the next step from here (San, Tydeus?)

Awesome stuff....
If this can make the balancer better Vanthor deserves a loom...just saying.  :mrgreen:

Elindor, Archon of the Holy Guard
Holy Guard Thread :HERE
Banner Shop : HERE // Map Thread : HERE

Offline Sniger

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 795
  • Infamy: 442
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2014, 09:29:32 am »
+1
what if this "balance" is suppose to be? if banner balance code is made by tjadzĀ® himself, will he allow anyone to fizzle with it? is he really not aware of the effect his code has? im sure he is!

poor balance wouldnt have so big impact if we gained xp/gold in another way than the way we currently gain.

i think there is alot more work and effort in attempting to alter or change the banner balance holycode than comming up with another xp/gold system.

whats wrong in giving everyone the same amount of xp/gold per tick? why give winners more experience? "experience" is based on time you spend doing something yes? losers spend the same time as winners but gain less experience. doesnt make sense. a gold-multiplier would be natural but i think a fixed xp income would be for the greater good.

Offline Jona

  • Balancer
  • *
  • Renown: 1372
  • Infamy: 376
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Bishop
  • OG Agi Whore
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Hounds of Chulainn
  • Game nicks: Jona, Siegafried
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2014, 11:37:02 am »
+1
what if this "balance" is suppose to be? if banner balance code is made by tjadzĀ® himself, will he allow anyone to fizzle with it? is he really not aware of the effect his code has? im sure he is!

poor balance wouldnt have so big impact if we gained xp/gold in another way than the way we currently gain.

i think there is alot more work and effort in attempting to alter or change the banner balance holycode than comming up with another xp/gold system.

whats wrong in giving everyone the same amount of xp/gold per tick? why give winners more experience? "experience" is based on time you spend doing something yes? losers spend the same time as winners but gain less experience. doesnt make sense. a gold-multiplier would be natural but i think a fixed xp income would be for the greater good.


It wouldn't require more work to change the 'holy balancer code' if Vanthor is already halfway there or so (Okay, maybe he's not even halfway there, but he seems to at least know how to get to the destination). And if you only rewarded winners with more gold, then that removes a heck of a lot of the incentive to try hard and win. Gold is super easy to get as is. No need to make it super, super easy to get, while making xp much harder. The grind to higher levels is long enough as is, and keeps getting longer. At this stage of the game people want more xp to get to those higher levels since they have so much gold sitting in the bank they can afford any gear and looms they want.

In my opinion if the balancer is tweaked, and then valor is calculated per team (an entire different topic, I know), this game should be in good shape balance-wise and will reward the good players appropriately.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


"I'll have my lance aimed at Jona's knees and he'll jump up, run up my lance and kill me." -Dalfador

Offline Sniger

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 795
  • Infamy: 442
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2014, 01:43:53 pm »
+1
eye of the beholder i guess. ill continue to gather screenshots in any case, its the only thing i can do to help, wish i was a codeshark :p

if there is more who wanna help with the screencapturing it would be cool its limited how much i play, its incredible agrovating :p

i still think xp/gold system should be changed in some way though. the current system is kind of made for banner balance

« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 01:47:14 pm by Sniger »

Offline Angantyr

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1134
  • Infamy: 130
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2014, 04:45:00 pm »
+1
Sniger, since our first talk on this topic I have actually collected 211 round end screenshots, but I have been too busy to upload them or their stats. Will do when I find the time, though not very scientific it is at least a perspective.

Offline Kafein

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 2203
  • Infamy: 808
  • cRPG Player Sir White Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2014, 05:54:00 pm »
+2
With that many screenshots, getting them OCRed might be better than reading them

Offline Angantyr

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1134
  • Infamy: 130
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2014, 06:06:39 pm »
+1
Yeah. And there's been plenty more since. Would help if I could still drag'n'drop in Photobucket.

Offline Sniger

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 795
  • Infamy: 442
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2014, 06:28:27 pm »
+1
.zip and upload to for examble dropbox

Offline Elindor

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1178
  • Infamy: 158
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Caelitus mihi vires
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Order of the Holy Guard
  • Game nicks: Elindor
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2014, 04:04:02 am »
+2
For me (and probably many) a better balancer is not something we desire because we want more gold/exp, but because we want more balanced combat scenarios.  When you are against overwhelming odds (through clan stacks and skill balance of players on each team) it really can stop being fun at some point for most players.

But yes, the gold/exp reward system also needs tweaked to be based off not just winning/losing rounds (and valor) but to also take into account personal performance, etc.

Also Valor needs to be calculated per team (think it's already like this in battle but not siege, of course, what else is new)
Elindor, Archon of the Holy Guard
Holy Guard Thread :HERE
Banner Shop : HERE // Map Thread : HERE

Offline San

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Renown: 1456
  • Infamy: 143
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • 1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
    • View Profile
    • My youtube Brawl videos
  • Faction: Chaos
  • Game nicks: San_of_Chaos
  • IRC nick: San
Re: Proposed change to team-balance algorithim
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2014, 05:12:00 am »
+4
Valor for a player per team's average instead of a pooled average is coming for next patch.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 05:55:31 am by San »