Poll

Will Putin command further invasion of Ukraine:

He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>
Who is mister Putin?

Author Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine  (Read 485998 times)

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Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3270 on: April 28, 2014, 12:21:46 pm »
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Which doesn't mean IQ can be measured as easily as height.
Which I never claimed.
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3271 on: April 28, 2014, 01:31:35 pm »
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I think you are only partially right here. Syria is a fucked up scenario: dictator fighting extremists basically. Supporting one or another is terribad in any case. While in Ukraine - US and EU would be supporting a fledgling democratic movement, which is trying to get rid of influence by the good old bad russia with a dictator at its head. I think its a bit different, even if russia would like it to be viewed in the same light.


Yanukovitch government was corrupt but still democratically elected, implying it was a dictatorship is at best propaganda at worst completely idiotic statement. I dont see how Ukraine is a fledgling democracy, since they changed no laws, just ousted the old government. If it was a real revolution surely they would change how the system works?

The only thing that changed in Ukraine, is which shithead will be able steal money from the people. Before it was Yanukovitch-Russia, now its Interim dudes-Europe, soon probably Poroshenko-Europe.

Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3272 on: April 28, 2014, 01:41:57 pm »
+1
Yanukovitch government was corrupt but still democratically elected, implying it was a dictatorship is at best propaganda at worst completely idiotic statement. I dont see how Ukraine is a fledgling democracy, since they changed no laws, just ousted the old government. If it was a real revolution surely they would change how the system works?

The only thing that changed in Ukraine, is which shithead will be able steal money from the people. Before it was Yanukovitch-Russia, now its Interim dudes-Europe, soon probably Poroshenko-Europe.
Implying, that elections and laws are the only things that a democracy make. :|
In any case, you took the wrong flame-bait, try harder.


Offline Molly

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3273 on: April 28, 2014, 01:54:58 pm »
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Yanukovitch government was corrupt but still democratically elected, implying it was a dictatorship is at best propaganda at worst completely idiotic statement. I dont see how Ukraine is a fledgling democracy, since they changed no laws, just ousted the old government. If it was a real revolution surely they would change how the system works?
...completely ignoring the changes to the constitution.
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.

Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3274 on: April 28, 2014, 02:13:25 pm »
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Implying, that elections and laws are the only things that a democracy make. :|

Yes, what else pray tell?


...completely ignoring the changes to the constitution.

Returning to the 2004 consitution which tweaks the power balance between the presidency and the parliament is not a form of government reform.



Case in point : dont use the term dictatorship when speaking of a democracy except if you want to be seen as a retarded lobbyist.

Offline Molly

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3275 on: April 28, 2014, 02:32:41 pm »
+1
Pro tip: Don't ignore reverting to a constitution which takes away power from the one single person who gained power before and then got chased out of the country.
Makes you look like a fool when stating "No changes to government!1!!"
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.

Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3276 on: April 28, 2014, 02:56:55 pm »
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I guess when France went from 4th to 5th Republic in 1958, we changed from a direct democracy (parliamentary republic) to a enlightened dictatorship (presidency republic), right?


Ukraine is a democracy, like France, for years. You can nitpick all you want, just stop using dictatorship accusation.

Offline Smoothrich

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3277 on: April 28, 2014, 03:03:39 pm »
+1
That is perfectly fine, but I don't see USA stopping there. It's too good opportunity to pass on it. I also don't believe in large conflict anymore (known as WWII). USA will find some other way to enslave Russia. They are a perfect candidate for you guys to leech on next couple of decades.

That's actually what we have in store for Canada with the Keystone Pipeline and other initiatives. Canada and the United States together outproduce Russia or the Middle East with oil and natural gas, which is Russia's leverage over most of Europe. Poland is already calling to shift economic ties to North America for energy.

I don't even know what you are talking about or what conspiracy crap you buy into. Is it the Jews?
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Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3278 on: April 28, 2014, 03:19:47 pm »
+2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ign7n03tXxw

Russia's "new special forces", revealed a year+ ago, the SSO (Sily spetsialnyh operatsii) are specialized in "illegal action abroad" and inciting problems in domestic politics in Russia's neighboring countries. Creating instability and destabilizing governments is what they do. Also described as "the troops that engage in war during peace time." And lots more stuff like that, introduced in "Vesti Nedeli" by Dmitri Kiseljov in 2013. Sure sounds a lot like the troops in Ukraine.
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3279 on: April 28, 2014, 04:16:05 pm »
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I guess when France went from 4th to 5th Republic in 1958, we changed from a direct democracy (parliamentary republic) to a enlightened dictatorship (presidency republic), right?


Ukraine is a democracy, like France, for years. You can nitpick all you want, just stop using dictatorship accusation.
My gad, BUTAN!!! You got half the point. I'm proud! :o

I say... countries, where 146% votes are possible ARE DEFINITELY democracies, because they have ELECTIONS! And no nitpicking is needed!  :rolleyes:

Also - READ AGAIN, or was that sentence structure too hard? :)

Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3280 on: April 28, 2014, 05:46:23 pm »
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In all democracy there is suspicions of frauds, I dont think its a crucial element in deserving the title of "dictatorship". Also I think the "146%" reference doesnt concern Ukraine  :wink:

But if you have proof that Ukraine elections were rigged in the past I would like to read it.
If the parliamentary election of 2012 is not legitimate to you, for example, it should be dissolved, not to be let in place to traffick the constitution of Ukraine, because they are all part of a corrupted past. And this corrupted past now have more power thanks to the new-old constitution.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 05:50:06 pm by Butan »

Offline Tovi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3281 on: April 28, 2014, 07:32:22 pm »
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The USA's goal is not war against Russia. It's to make Russia a rogue state under embargo like Iran.
 Civil war or Coup is the final goal. That's why their sanction aims mainly Putin and people close to him.
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Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3282 on: April 28, 2014, 08:24:38 pm »
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The USA's goal is not war against Russia. It's to make Russia a rogue state under embargo like Iran.
Civil war or Coup is the final goal. That's why their sanction aims mainly Putin and people close to him.

Even if the final goal was something different, economical sanctions always aim where it hurts, where there is money, and a lot of people around Putin have money.
If they had something else in mind, they would still do the same => diplomatically and economically isolating your enemy. It cost almost nothing and it can hurt as much as wars if done right.

One day there should be laws about economical wars, because today in this globalized world, you are forced to be in the global market, and to use the global market as a tool of war shouldnt be a unilateral decision without trials based solely on ideological and geopolitical stances, since people are in the balance too.

Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3283 on: April 28, 2014, 09:08:05 pm »
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The USA's goal is not war against Russia. It's to make Russia a rogue state under embargo like Iran.
 Civil war or Coup is the final goal. That's why their sanction aims mainly Putin and people close to him.
Hahaha, Tovi just keeps spewing more and more retarded garbage.

If that is indeed USA's goal, then why is Russia doing all of USA's work for it? Maybe, just maybe -- bear with me here Tovi, this is going to sound CRAZY -- it's possible... now, mind, I'm not saying it's likely or anything, but it's worth thinking about... that there's no conspiracy in this here particular case.
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Tovi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3284 on: April 28, 2014, 09:24:38 pm »
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Even if the final goal was something different, economical sanctions always aim where it hurts, where there is money, and a lot of people around Putin have money.
If they had something else in mind, they would still do the same => diplomatically and economically isolating your enemy. It cost almost nothing and it can hurt as much as wars if done right.

One day there should be laws about economical wars, because today in this globalized world, you are forced to be in the global market, and to use the global market as a tool of war shouldnt be a unilateral decision without trials based solely on ideological and geopolitical stances, since people are in the balance too.

US fears Russia because it offers an alternative that China is not. For exemple : Snowden and world spying. Russia can counter US spies and can spy themselves ( Nuland phone chat). They can provides advanced weapons to countries like Syria or Iran. They offer an alternative internet without censorship (RuTube etc.), they can supply gas and oil to countries like China or India, they can launch military satellites. They try to avoid dollars paiements in international exchanges etc.
A strong Russia is a threat to the US world hegemony.
And they are already at economical war. When Visa and Mastercard initiated an embargo on Russia, Putin decided to create a new credit card system.
You can also remember when EU took the russian cash in Cyprian banks...
And, finally, Russia can now propose some "counter-propaganda" medias, as never seen before , since at least, 20 years. 
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