Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Bob_Ross]

Singing at them will make their cold hearts melt and make them leave right 

Never underestimate the terror of having to endure out of tune singing.

[AntiBlitz]

Putin makes a press conference to explain the invasion:
i cant find a video since its on russian tv, someone else should post it.  However he claims its humanitarian aid that is needed and its why russia is in crimea.

U.S efforts:
Secretary of State Kerry has landed in Kiev and is walking the streets of independence square
U.S created a 1 billion dollar aid package for Ukraine to help

[Kafein]

-On Crimea/Eastern Ukraine right to change against Kiev laws (or pro-Russian against pro-EU rights):

Like many stated already, it would be very stupid after 50 pages of "GOGO MAIDAN!!!" to use arguments like "There is laws, you cant just change government". Everyone can see that. What Vovka implied is that, maybe even without Russia intervention, pro-russia Ukrainians would have started a counter-maidan revolution, and what would have happened you think? Frankly, I would have loved those "legitimate" pro-EU people in Kiev government to send their policemen in revolted regions and see how they handle their own citizen   
But since Russia intervened before even a tiny flame had began to flare, we will never know, and indirectly the Russians have decreased the legitimacy of the pro-russia ukrainians to revolt since they started voicing their mind only after the streets were ripe with unmarked russian soldiers and other pro-russian militias.
BUT even now, even with Russia intervention, you cant say those who overthrown the government in Kiev have more rights than those who overthrown the government in Simferopol, whether they have been helped by an external country or not, the people in the street arent mind-controlled by Putin more than the people at Maidan were mind-controlled by Obama.

The problem is that what is happening in Crimea has nothing to do whatsoever with the Maidan stuff. If we stay true to the facts, it's Russia invading another country with unmarked military personel. Actually the only comparison you could make is that when he was still in place, Yanukovich received financial help from the Kremlin to suppress the rebels, while the Maidan protesters received sandwishes from Hillary Clinton. I'm sorry for drawing such a onesided picture, but I fail to see information supporting anything else.

[Molly]

Video from Belbek airbase showing the moment when Russian troops fire warning shots as unarmed Ukrainians approach. Ukrainians respond by breaking into song.

Random source:

[DaveUKR]

2 points I would like to discuss:


-On Russia "protecting against chocolate chip cookie/terrorist" pretext:

There was indeed some "nazi" speech on the Maidan tribune and laws proposal that would go toward over the top anti-russian laws, even anti-gay and pro-terrorist group that wanted to continue the revolution with even more blood had some speak time allowed.
BUT there was a loooooot of different people that came and spoke to maidan tribune (and thats normal and good, a real democracy means everyone can speak), and I am pretty sure that the few nazi/terrorist/anti-gay that spoke dont have enough influence in Ukraine to pass their ideas into laws, so it is indeed a nice little fake argument from Russia when they say they want to protect people against them.
BUT  it would be quite naive to say "there is no nazi/terrorist/anti-gay" in the maidan revolution and in the country, there is those kind of people in every country in the world, and for the people to protect themselves against them, they have first to ACKNOWLEDGE that they exist, so please dont say your maidan campaign was a pure snowflake, no revolution is a pure snowflake, you will have to fight against the influence of those you dont agree with even NOW.
One could even say, the worst fighting still have to happen.




-On Crimea/Eastern Ukraine right to change against Kiev laws (or pro-Russian against pro-EU rights):

Like many stated already, it would be very stupid after 50 pages of "GOGO MAIDAN!!!" to use arguments like "There is laws, you cant just change government". Everyone can see that. What Vovka implied is that, maybe even without Russia intervention, pro-russia Ukrainians would have started a counter-maidan revolution, and what would have happened you think? Frankly, I would have loved those "legitimate" pro-EU people in Kiev government to send their policemen in revolted regions and see how they handle their own citizen   
But since Russia intervened before even a tiny flame had began to flare, we will never know, and indirectly the Russians have decreased the legitimacy of the pro-russia ukrainians to revolt since they started voicing their mind only after the streets were ripe with unmarked russian soldiers and other pro-russian militias.
BUT even now, even with Russia intervention, you cant say those who overthrown the government in Kiev have more rights than those who overthrown the government in Simferopol, whether they have been helped by an external country or not, the people in the street arent mind-controlled by Putin more than the people at Maidan were mind-controlled by Obama.

Completely misunderstood statements. It looks like you try to sound smart and rational while your words make barely any sense.
1. Right sector is first of all nationalistic organization, not nаzi. You should understand the difference.
2. There are definitely some retards in this organization who yelled bullshit. No one declines that, but they are a small amount (not even 1000) and deeply in the west of Ukraine. Maidan never supported them, if they did - give me a link to a video where Maidan supports Nаzis.
3. Russian neonаzis is a common thing in Russia, they even have a huge movement called Restrukt that is leaded by a skinhead and has thousands of followers in the whole Russia. They have multiple neonаzi organisations. Sometimes Russian government indirectly supports them.
4. There is no counter-maidan revolution and it had no chance to happen. As I've said already: President tried his best to make it but failed because he didn't have support of people. There are a lot of people with Russian citizenship in the eastern Ukraine who try to escalate the situation, they arrived into Ukraine in buses from different Russian cities (for instance, the guy who dropped the Ukrainian flag from the local administration, replaced it with Russian flag and made a famous photo is actually a guy from Moscow with Russian citizenship).
5. How don't you get that there is no different Parliament after Maidan? It's the SAME Parliament. Parliament voted for a new head of Parliament, they can't vote for a President, Ukraine doesn't have a President now (and don't need it as it's described in the law of Ukraine that Parliament have functions of a President when there is no President on his place).
6. Maidan didn't demand to destroy Ukraine and separate regions to different countries.
7. Government in Simferopol  has no rights at all: he even failed to have 50 needed votes in their local Parliament, so they just used cards of other deputies having armed Russians inside (it was even impossible, how can you get 50 votes with 40+ registered deputies? It reminds me of Russian elections with 146% of votes.)
8. Any kind of such referendum is forbidden by the law of Ukraine. The only referendum that is possible is a referendum in the whole Ukraine. Also they changed dates of referendum moving it from May to March and want to move the date once again (everyone understands why, because if Russian troops go away from Crimea - he'll get into prison for separatism).
9. There was NOT a single reason to intrude Crimea with Russian forces - it was one of the most silent places in Ukraine.

[Xant]

Video from Belbek airbase showing the moment when Russian troops fire warning shots as unarmed Ukrainians approach. Ukrainians respond by breaking into song.

Hahah, elite Russian soldiers. Look at how the Russkie on the left holds his rifle. Gangbanger style, only with an AK.

[Yarl]

.
3. Russian neonаzis is a common thing in Russia, they even have a huge movement called Restrukt that is leaded by a skinhead and has thousands of followers in the whole Russia. They have multiple neonаzi organisations. Sometimes Russian government indirectly supports them.

Bullshit. Restrukt is nothing, they have no power, just stupid kids. Goverment don't support them, and their leader now in jail.

(click to show/hide)

Хоспаде, ну что за хуйню ты несешь. Ультиматум у его, Путин отозвал войска на базы , Россия потеряет все хахахах
Сколько можно нести чушь)

[Moncho]

A question: is this word twisting, or did Putin really say something like:
Russian President Vladimir Putin says there is no need yet to send Russian troops into Ukraine.

(from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26433309)

Wouldn't that mean they do not consider Crimea part of Ukraine, since they have already sent Russian troops there? Interesting rethoric if it is not twisted

[Dark_Blade]

Dave, I simply dont understand how can you call my statments illogical if everything i says got quite logical explanation, causes and results etc.

To make it short: You live in Ukraine, you hate Ukraine, you hate democracy, you think Ukraine shouldn't exist in its current borders, UkrSSR stronk.

and thats all what you got from my message?  well i shouldnt explain everything that long because you seems to be disabled to make analysis of things which are related not as obvious as relation between russian federation and lenin.

1. About unrelated stuff and psychology of choices. I've stated here multiple times (I can't even count how many) that not everyone is happy with current government (including me, I personally dislike it), that there is no ideal choice at all: whatever you do now - people will be unhappy.

well I was talking about personal choises of each person. not about politics. the relation of this part of my message to all this thread is person's point of view. can you see something a little bit more far your mind? do you think that your own life is more important than life of other people and will you sacrifice the prosperity\life of other people to make yourself more happy\rich\etc?

2. About democracy being bad. I strictly disagree, don't even want to discuss it. You would get to Gulag for your words.

nice explanation. why dont you explain why you like democracy that much? I just explained why I dislike it and why I found it as way into the abyss. but what about you?

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I found communism as the best way... but the trouble is this way kinda too ideal for humans nature. USSR obviously wasnt communist country. even brainwashing was at this way - that doesnt makes USSR as communists country.

3. About Ukraine being fiction. Following your logic: how can UNR (Ukrainian National Republic) that existed 3 (yes, three) years that declared independence from Russian Empire be more related to Ukraine than UkrSSR? With the same logic I can claim that Moscow should be a part of Ukraine as it got founded by lords of Kiev Rus, but I don't do it. Why? Because it would be extremely stupid. Current Ukrainian borders are ratified by the whole world (including Russia).

three years of independence? you should learn history ...  or at least analyze it a little bit better than you are doing. do you want to call Skoropadskiy as a leader of idependent UNR?

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sure Skoropadskiy was a puppet but tbh he made the better changes for UNR than any none puppet ukrainian leaders did.

my understanding of following territory is next " independent Ukraine" -> successor of the previous country -> "variant 1: successor of UkrSSR. new politicial system with total disagreement with political views of USSR. successing denied " -> "variant 2: successor of historical land" -> "what is historical Ukraine?" -> " v 1: Kievan Rus. too long time ago and moot case. no justice proofs.denied." -> "v 2: Hetmanat. same thing as with Kievan Rus. denied" -> "v 3: UNR. legally confirmed country with the word "Ukraine" in the name.
as for me the territory of Hetmanat is the right choise... but it was so long time ago so with time of USSR ethnic borders of ukrainians became larger.  the trouble is... what is ethnical ukrainian? western ukrainians are being called us "russins", eastern - one of russians ethnos, crimea - tatars, russians.
and all those nations are forming the Ukraine, the country we are talking about... but people from different ethnical groups got too different points of view...
well maybe I am wrong... but everything works right in the way that I am trying to explain.

4. About Crimea not being Ukrainian. If it's not Ukrainian - it's definitely not Russian then. Crimea was Russian during 170 years (1783-1954) and was never Russian before and hopefully doesn't become in future.

let it be the part of Turkey then? well I think there must be voting. as I know there more ethnical russians but only democrative voting can show part of what country Crimea should be.

5. About corruption in Ukraine. Yes, Ukraine was corrupted (99th place with previous president in 2006) in the past but it became corrupted even more with Yanukovich becoming probably the most (144th place in 2013, the highest corruption rating for Ukraine so far). You want to get rid of corruption and decide to become a part of guess what country? Tip: this country shares 127th place in 2013 corruption antirating with Pakistan, Nicaragua, Gambia, Lebanon, Mali, Comoros and Azerbaijan. No idea? Oh, it's Russian Federation, how unexpected.

the funny thing is from where you found this statistics?  I know that we can get statistic of murders per year... so statistic of corruption can be founded only in the same way... but does it really means that the country became more corrupted? or it means that more corrupted officials was founded?  exuse me, how does it means that there was less corrupted officials before? does it means that now here will be less corrupted officials now?

6. About quote that you hate the government but love the country. That's just obvious hypocrisy. 5 minutes ago you confessed that you hate your country, also what should I say if you don't even accept Ukraine as a country calling it fiction?

I like the culture of my land. there was so many epic things in my land... but my land and Ukraine is different places. my land is wild steppe and industrial towns, yellow wheat fields and blue sky above it... not the red&black flag and people who are screaming Hail Hitlar Slava Ukraini! ... that ukraine, that heroes they are talking about are not mine ukraine and heroes. even more, its something complitelly different, something... opposite.


Dave, in every your answer you says more and more things... but you are not explaining them. If you like something - let it be, but if you dont even understand what are you talking about why do you talking about it? if I am wrong - explain it. explain it fine, with causes and results. without analysis any thesis becomming complitely pointless... we are talking about politics, not about culture. its not about preferences, its about humans life.

[DaveUKR]

Bullshit. Restrukt is nothing, they have no power, just stupid kids. Goverment don't support them, and their leader now in jail.

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Хоспаде, ну что за хуйню ты несешь. Ультиматум у его, Путин отозвал войска на базы , Россия потеряет все хахахах
Сколько можно нести чушь)

I didn't say that Restrukt has support of government. I said about other Russian nationalistic and nаzi organizations. Also you have to learn to read because you understand like a half from what I write. So I'll explain it in Russian

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Перечитай ещё раз то, о чём я говорил. У меня складывается впечатление, что ты читаешь через слово либо у тебя Путин головного мозга (ну, или ты просто плохо понимаешь по-английски). Путин отозвал войска с западных военных округов на места постоянной дислокации, которые принимали участие в т.н. учениях у восточных границ Украины.  Про "потеряет всё" - я специально уточнил By saying "lose everything" I meant that Russia will lose everything in Ukraine. И слово lose в данном случае следовало перевести, как проиграет, а не потеряет. И про ультиматум - та же песня, я помню, как пели, что это не русские войска, а непонятные стихийные повстанцы. Ночью была попытка штурма, но без оружия.

[Macropus]

I`d still give my life for my country 24/7/365, not for the government, but for my fellow Greeks.

On a side note, Panos would give his live for his country 0.00939334.

[DaveUKR]

[...]Dave, in every your answer you says more and more things... but you are not explaining them[...]

Once you've mentioned Polish people who can't be persuaded in things, now I read your text and understand why. Your logic is too simple and premature, consequently wrong, I barely believe you can persuade someone. You claim that I don't use facts but your text makes no sense at all, looks like a text made by a young teenager who has just found out that he is a cool political specialist. This time I didn't manage to read this all text. Seriously, saying that western Ukrainians are called russins just shows your level of education (for the rest of people who read this: Rusins are like 50 thousands, small ethnic slavic group).  About corruption: google Transparency International.

[Chagan_Arslan]

why dont you explain why you like democracy that much? I just explained why I dislike it and why I found it as way into the abyss. but what about you?

only democrative voting can show part of what country Crimea should be.

make up your mind, will you ?

red&black flag and people who are screaming Hail Hitlar Slava Ukraini!

can you show me material of these people shouting that ? as far as i know red & black flag is of anarchists which is opposed to facist/communist/democracy(as we know it)

btw. did you read what kind of the man Karl Marx was? living of the loans from friend and family, not having a single day at work, just dreaming about his utopia and hating on things that would disturb his existence. Yeah a real role model all should follow

[Molly]

[...]
btw. did you read what kind of the man Karl Marx was? living of the loans from friend and family, not having a single day at work, just dreaming about his utopia and hating on things that would disturb his existence. Yeah a real role model all should follow

Don't forget the drug abuse

[Falka]

It's been rather obvious that he's not German...

Well, Panos isn't sharpest knife in the drawer, is he, he thought that I'm a girl... Oh wait