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Will Putin command further invasion of Ukraine:

He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>
Who is mister Putin?

Author Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine  (Read 485200 times)

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Offline Christo

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #225 on: January 28, 2014, 05:44:30 pm »
0
dude you dont know social and political situation in Ukraine... as I already said - I am  not sure about there is any more free country in europe than this  one.

That just shows how ignorant you are, duh.
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Offline Dark_Blade

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #226 on: January 28, 2014, 06:03:19 pm »
+4
Quote
i am not sure is anywhere in the world you will find more free country than this one. you are allowed to do almost everything what you want... lie from TV, in press or wherever else and be taken seriously. you can break any minor social and almost every politcal laws... is it fault of the goverment? no, its a trouble of retarded people. after the fall of USSR someone said that you are in free country so you can do whatever you want! and even 20 years later people still same retarded.

well maybe if you are doing something really wrong and bad hiden - you'll get some troubles... but I was never breaking any laws so I never had troubles with police... what kind of regime? we cannot talk about politics? even on tv we can see 2 points of view on tv.
yeah the only three question for me: why noone talking about those rebels as about vandals and hooligans who are capturing the adminstrative buildings of country(so they are breaking the work of country... payment for example), why noone talking about the statment (something like) "in our regions "Political Party of Regions" and communists will not be allowed" ... well I am not sure was it just provoking statment or its seriouse but its not about democraty... and the most interesting question - from where the hell this demostration got all resources...
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Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #227 on: January 28, 2014, 10:53:05 pm »
+2
Most arguments I hear on why Ukraine would be better off with EU than Russia stinks of anti-russian and is mostly based on hate of post WW2 - Cold war regime. The only arguments I hear on why Russia is bad is the strong anti-gay lobby and the authoritarian laws enforcement. But there is a lot of countries like that around the world and even 10x worse! I'm pretty sure its not the main reason why there is such an uproar in Ukraine.

Then there is the corruption accusations of political leaders; but lets be honest, its a wild accusation thrown at every protests to legitimize further actions. It can be true, it can be false; its not really important, as long as most people believe one way or another, they will impose their will on the rest.
What's interesting is, will they go balls to the walls or just stop short of any major changes in the country?


Furthermore, as Dark Blade point out, the protesters arent really your typical freedom fighters, it seems far right wings have a heavy hand behind the protests, who the hell is really behind all this, and how this situation will benefit them, I really do wonder.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 11:01:17 pm by Butan »

Offline serr

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #228 on: January 28, 2014, 11:34:40 pm »
+16
As another Ukrainian, even living in eastern Ukraine where people usually support Yanukovich, I cannot agree with Dark Blade.

Situation here is very complicated and there is no way to say which side is right or wrong. More likely they are both wrong, which is also not completely true.

First of all, in my opinion, full responsibility on what's happening in our country lies on government and president. All these protests, peaceful at the beginning, started not because Yanukovich didn't sign up association agreement, but because he and his government for several years were talking and promising how they will sign it up and that they are working on it, but at the very last moment he told something like “For some reason I will not sign it up”. So people saw that he doesn't really care about what he promise and that was main reason why people started protesting.

It lasted for a bit longer than week, then on 29th November Yanukovich didn't sign up agreement during Eastern Partnership Summit and in the same night berkut http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkut_(Ukraine) attacked protesters http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NktaoqIg9uE
It was first violence, there were no molotov's cocktails before that, no policemen beatings and no administrative buildings capturing. All shit happening in Ukraine these two last months started that night.

After that massive protests started. Around 1 million people joined protests next day. Most went to Independence Square http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/meanwhile-in-ukraine/msg911634/#msg911634 ,
but some radical retards decided to fight police on Bankova Street http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OrQGRAtZmk
In the evening police attacked, outcome you can see in first post.

Later there were lot of provocations from both sides but it was more or less ok. Until enacting anti-protests laws, which was done in a very strange way by raising hands, that were immediately counted. Shortly after that molotov's cocktails and all that shit you can see on tv appeared.

About protesters: at the beginning most of them were peaceful with some radicals I mentioned before who started to fight police from the first day. However with every day and with every stupid ruler's decision more and more are ready for violence confrontation. Despite many Yanukovich's followers opinion, not all of them are right-wing radicals and not all radicals are neochocolate chip cookie, not even most, though some of them certainly are.
Basically most of protesters are good people, but there are also lot of aggressive retards who are using this as opportunity to do what they like.

About laws: it's not the laws themselves which caused escalation of conflict. It is the way they were passed, situation in which they were passed, and the way laws in Ukraine are usually used and abused(not sure if it's different in other countries).

It took much more time to write this wall of text than I expected, so I won't write my opinion on situation in regions today, which is subject for another long post. Just main thing I wanted to say: protests in Ukraine today has nothing to do with EU union anymore. It's more about Yanukovich himself(these are not first stupid decisions he made, just first that led to such consequences), the way he reacted to protests and the way he is ruling the country in general(which is also subject for another post).

Unlike Dark Blade, I am scared of death and I am scared of civil war, which is unlikely but still possible in current situation.
IMO best solution in this situation would be Yanukovich's resignation and new president elections, but it wouldn't solve the main problem in Ukraine – there is no leader who could be accepted both by eastern and western Ukraine. And if such leader won't appear – I'm afraid Ukraine will split up sooner or later, hopefully without huge bloodshed. 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 11:38:37 pm by serr »

Offline Ikarus

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #229 on: January 29, 2014, 01:50:11 am »
+1
serr just brought me the infos I desperately was looking for in the past few weeks in the media

thanks for the quick picture, I really hope this will turn out well
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #230 on: January 29, 2014, 01:57:27 am »
+8
About corruption.. I have been to Russia, Kaliningrad, only for 2 weeks, on a workshop organized by VGIK, the state Moscow film school.

The organizer was a former KGB woman, Mosfilm representative in the US during the cold war. Her assistants, and some of the other students were very scared of what to say openly. I could feel the repression in their eyes. (And I don't think I was very prejudiced up front..)  I saw some students of production spend 10 times my budget for living(Which was a healthy norwegian budget, considering how relatively cheap everything is) during my stay. Obviously bought into the school by rich and influential parents. I saw poor local actresses near prostituting themselves for attention from foreign filmmaker students.. We had daily budgets of about 8 euros, but we were driven to locations in newish huge black mercedeses with bald, criminal looking drivers.. ?? while we were given penthouse suites in a very decent hotel.

It is the craziest society I have seen, where the unfairness is blatant between the rich and the poor, where one can never feel really safe. It is inefficient as fuck, violent and magnificently absurd. Poland, where I live normally is a pure and western paradise in comparison.

The best thing for Ukraine is to join EU. I'm against Norway, my home country joining, but for Ukraine it's clearly the better choice. EU will probably enforce a more modern state, more modern Law and Order, and more modern organizations. As well as they have shown will to upgrade the infrastructure of joining states like in Poland.

The EU is not a threat to Ukrainian identity, like it hasn't been to Polish identity. The only threat that exist to identity is modernity itself, and it's a bad idea to resist it.

If Ukraine fares well, it may even be to the benefit of the Russian people in the long run, as they can learn from Ukraine by example.

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That Thomeck-delay-kicking bussiness is like that asshole-retard dude that fucks your sister sometimes.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #231 on: January 29, 2014, 08:50:59 am »
0
Well, right now Russia is mostly trying to re-establish some sort of satellite belt by the looks of it. First Georgia and now this. Don't tell me Moscow was not involved in Yanukovich's 180 on that agreement.


Also I have trouble picturing right wing extremists starting the protest for any reason linked to the EU. Isn't it something like the neonavisitors can't see pics , please register or login
zi from the western part want to fight with the neonavisitors can't see pics , please register or login
zi of the eastern part ?

Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #232 on: January 29, 2014, 02:19:59 pm »
+6
Its interesting to hear more from Ukraine residents; without you we are only foreigners debating on something we have no relations to  :)



Well, right now Russia is mostly trying to re-establish some sort of satellite belt by the looks of it. First Georgia and now this. Don't tell me Moscow was not involved in Yanukovich's 180 on that agreement.


Most likely Russia was involved in Ukraine sudden change of heart.
Everyone's trying to get money from advantageous trade unions, Ukraine trying to play the EU card until Putin tightened the leash by promises/new agreements/threats, then political backlash with the population.
Ukraine may have ben trying to leave Russia influence, because Russia-Ukraine relations problem over old satelitte relationship/national debts/gas export&import and old territorial claims are always true today.


Russia has its own Eurasia trade unions to push, trying to get/keep members away from Indian/Asian/European outer influences, like the European Union trade network. Its no longer a satellite states war, its a trade war. From ideological warfare to economical warfare : 99% of those countries are capitalist oriented.




Also I have trouble picturing right wing extremists starting the protest for any reason linked to the EU. Isn't it something like the neochocolate chip cookie from the western part want to fight with the neonavisitors can't see pics , please register or login
zi of the eastern part ?


Nationalist right wing is against communism and close to facism. Russia represent soviet-communism for them, and european union represent opportunities to say fuck you to Russia while getting closer to einstein birthplace (this point is completely made up from me :P). Also because they are nationalist, they dont like Russia influence which borders on a master/vassal influence ever since the end of the USSR.

It is only normal for some of them to participate in the maidan campaign.

On west/east cultural differences I think serr would be better than me to talk about it, the only thing I know is that the east is more tolerant to Russia influence, to the point of even accepting it for some. Not everyone want Ukraine to stay an independant country. A split between west and east of Ukraine is something the people of Ukraine fear because of those radical differences between regions of the same country.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 03:10:16 pm by Butan »

Offline Segd

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #233 on: January 30, 2014, 05:04:24 pm »
+13
 :D
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Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #234 on: January 30, 2014, 06:13:44 pm »
+1
Fake, everyone knows the police are a single hivemind killing machine with no emotions.
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #235 on: January 30, 2014, 06:24:59 pm »
+5
Everyone knows the police are a single hivemind killing machine with no emotions, who likes sledging.

Fixed

Offline BASNAK

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #236 on: January 30, 2014, 11:20:38 pm »
+1
from where the hell this demostration got all resources...

From either insert: CIA/MI6/Illuminati/the Jews/HITLËR & Co. hiding in Argentine/Islamists taking over Europe
And could you explain how Ukraine is probably the freest country in Europe? From my own experience all these eastern countries and the balkans are corrupt from top to bottom.
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Offline Nightmare798

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #237 on: January 31, 2014, 12:00:07 am »
+1
Tseng: Used to the bitter taste of refusal, this only serves to reinforce his greatest life lession yet.
Cloud: And that is?
Tseng: Bitches, man.

Offline Dark_Blade

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #238 on: January 31, 2014, 05:13:17 am »
+2
From either insert: CIA/MI6/Illuminati/the Jews/HITLËR & Co. hiding in Argentine/Islamists taking over Europe
And could you explain how Ukraine is probably the freest country in Europe? From my own experience all these eastern countries and the balkans are corrupt from top to bottom.
cuz people can talk and do whatever they want, wherever they want. sure alot of things a bordered with a law ... but as you can see blocking the main street of the Kiev, blocking administrative buildings and even fighting police is kinda not too forbiden also  :|

and how your message about corruption breaking the subject "its not the free country"? even more, it says that everyone can do even outlawed things with high chance to be safe.

sounds terrible? sure. terrible country? yes. terrible goverment? yes. but there is NO better goverment. the previos one, as I already said, was even worse( and the current leaders of maidan was leaders of it also).  and yes... terrible people also. is it their fault that they born in such a country fallen in lie? no. their analysis and action? yes, its their fault and it makes them terrible... at least if look at the political and social point of view. 
there is a rhetorical question " citizen born for the state or state was made for the citizen"? Democracy says about second subject is right. so if state was just made for citizen - citizen made it... and the way it was made was chosen by citizen.

some of you can retort that all my arguments are  too naive. that you are simple citizen and the real power in the hands of oligarсhs. yes. its so, and my arguments are working only from the point of ideal democracy and relations between people.
so rich people and goverment are limiting your freedom? yes, they are. do you feel still same free as before? but do you need this kind of freedom that we can see in Kiev?  nothing constructive... and after all this town needs some repairs... lets guess who will pay for that chaos made by 300-500k of people?(dont tell me cool storys about milion lol. milion is much more people than we can see there). yeah, people from all around the ukraine will have some penalties in their payments because of it.

for real, people needs stability, something to eat, some place to live in and the work allows you to collect some money over that ones you have to spend for daily activity.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 05:19:36 am by Dark_Blade »
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #239 on: January 31, 2014, 09:41:40 am »
+1
cuz people can talk and do whatever they want, wherever they want. sure alot of things a bordered with a law ... but as you can see blocking the main street of the Kiev, blocking administrative buildings and even fighting police is kinda not too forbiden also  :|

By the sound of police forces bludgeoning the protesters, I'd go with "It is forbidden as hell".