Poll

Will Putin command further invasion of Ukraine:

He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>
Who is mister Putin?

Author Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine  (Read 485440 times)

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Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7065 on: October 13, 2014, 12:02:33 am »
+1
Since we are talking about media...
http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-media-professor-haag-dubious-credentials/26632541.html

And Don - mind game for you:assume that truth is 0, there is an oppinon in west media that its +5, oppinion in russian media that its -50, "listening and semi-trusting" to both sides, gives you average -22,5, which leaves you so deep in russian bullshit, that its not even funny.

Same with putlers strategy in Ukraine. Annex Crimea, cause ANOTHER bullshit, then retreat from it acting as if "see? I made concessions, not remove those damn sanctions, because my oligarchs feel like shit that they are". Elephant in the room is that everyone should assume that Crimeas question is "resolved".

Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7066 on: October 13, 2014, 12:25:33 am »
0
assume that truth is 0, there is an oppinon in west media that its +5, oppinion in russian media that its -50, "listening and semi-trusting" to both sides, gives you average -22,5, which leaves you so deep in russian bullshit, that its not even funny.

Assuming that truth is 1, and everything else is 0, who cares how amateurish or professional looking lies are?

I prefer medias which are too dumb to be believed, like Fox News and Russia Today. I prefer a profoundly biased media to smart political propagandist: the first will, at worst, convince the most stupid on earth, at best entertain the rest; the later will give you information that you want to believe in, and emprison your mind for the rest of your life.


Do you think russians widely believe what is shown on their main medias about Europe? I dont think so, even Vovka and other russians said multiple times...

Do I believe europeans widely believe what is shown on their main medias about Russia? Yes.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 12:34:07 am by Butan »

Offline Anuran

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7067 on: October 13, 2014, 12:47:03 am »
0
Do I believe europeans widely believe what is shown on their main medias about Russia? Yes.

But rapidly declining tendency. There is at least a very small thought about another big war at the back of the peoples' minds slowly coming in. You know, veeeery slowly the masses seem to figure out what's really going on. I notice that in my own environment.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 12:50:18 am by Anuran »

Offline Christo

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7068 on: October 13, 2014, 02:02:03 am »
-1
Do you think russians widely believe what is shown on their main medias about Europe? I dont think so, even Vovka and other russians said multiple times...

They hate the west without the media already enough.
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Offline DonNicko

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7069 on: October 13, 2014, 05:34:40 am »
-1
They hate the west without the media already enough.
:lol:

Offline DonNicko

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7070 on: October 13, 2014, 06:01:00 am »
-1
To me, it is long ago obvious that this is a war engineered by Putin alone, afraid to loose his puppet state.
So you think that maidan revolution also made by Putin? As I remember when Yanukovich met with EU to discuss about joining, Russia asked EU to be on this discussions to consult about current agreements with Russia. EU answered it's not your business. Ok, Russia gave to Ukraine better conditions that EU offered. But then revolution came. When Timoshenko was freed, she claimed that Crimea must be freed from russian sea troops. Well politically there were 2 problems. Well Crimea were taken. About East Ukraine where all production is based and good for trade must be taken, I think Putin didn't expect this ATO. Son of Baiden is a director of one firm which has a gas foundations on the East. So after some visits of Baiden and USA generals ATO begins. As I said before, my opinion is that this is political game between Russia and USA. According to statements of NATO and secretaries of USA, there are a lot of fake statements, maybe much more or the same as in Russia. So if EU media is +5 then they have to disprove this statements of USA and Nato.

Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7071 on: October 13, 2014, 08:43:11 am »
0
So you think that maidan revolution also made by Putin? As I remember when Yanukovich met with EU to discuss about joining, Russia asked EU to be on this discussions to consult about current agreements with Russia. EU answered it's not your business. Ok, Russia gave to Ukraine better conditions that EU offered. But then revolution came. When Timoshenko was freed, she claimed that Crimea must be freed from russian sea troops. Well politically there were 2 problems. Well Crimea were taken. About East Ukraine where all production is based and good for trade must be taken, I think Putin didn't expect this ATO. Son of Baiden is a director of one firm which has a gas foundations on the East. So after some visits of Baiden and USA generals ATO begins. As I said before, my opinion is that this is political game between Russia and USA. According to statements of NATO and secretaries of USA, there are a lot of fake statements, maybe much more or the same as in Russia. So if EU media is +5 then they have to disprove this statements of USA and Nato.
1. WHAT THE FUCK is russias business what ANOTHER country wants to do? Join EU, join NATO, become anti-russia: ITS SIMPLY NOT rUSSIAS BUSINESS. You presume it is, but it is simply NOT the case. Being butthurt is what russia is in this case, what with all its delusions of grandeur. And to hell with what russia asked or promised, it simply lies too much these days.
2. How do you go from "supporting Maidan" to "being guilty of inciting civil war and annexing part of Ukraine" is beyond me. Its simply... for the lack of better expression "only in putlers russian media" (c) that it is natural, self evident or obvious. Pulling out some semi-related names is an attempt to pin label "dried ham" on some fly-ridden carcass in the middle of siberia.
3. I loved the "well, Crimea was taken". You forgot to add "suck it up and trust us again nao, plzkthxbai". Elephant in the room is here, now please move on, nothing to see here.
4. "fake statements" and all that jazz - I would say you have these in Ukraine press, which is only natural (what with all the propaganda BS). Western press, the proper, serious one - they doublecheck and report what they saw in a reasonably conservative manner, not what they read, imagined, created or simply were paid to report. And if they report on "twitter" stuff or hearsay - they say it as it is, i.e. "based on unconfirmed sources" etc. You assume, that because your media is so full of shit, ALL worlds media is the same. Which is simply not the case.

This is actually the case of  "trustworthiness" of your media sources, assuming 0 is the "trustworthy": you have your russian sources, with -50 in score, and your western ones, which lets say are -5. Now you paint all media as -27.5, which is again - only if you trust or semi-trust ANYTHING coming out of russia. What you COULD and SHOULD learn from russian media is what are they AIMING for with this reporting, and not what they are actually reporting. This is a good material.

And their "reporting" has led to annexation of Crimea and artificial civil war in eastern ukraine (which btw, with 50% industry destroyed WAS a manufacturing center, not anymore).

Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7072 on: October 13, 2014, 02:47:41 pm »
+2
1. WHAT THE FUCK is russias business what ANOTHER country wants to do? Join EU, join NATO, become anti-russia: ITS SIMPLY NOT rUSSIAS BUSINESS. You presume it is, but it is simply NOT the case. Being butthurt is what russia is in this case, what with all its delusions of grandeur. And to hell with what russia asked or promised, it simply lies too much these days.

DonNicko said Russia wanted to be in the discussion. Russia could have been in the game and compromises could have been made between everyone involved. You can do it the easy way, or the hard way. "The hard way it is? Ok then." This could sum up the whole Ukraine affair.

At the time of the discussions it was more about economics than politics, but as Maidan showed, the question of the economical agreements between Ukraine and Europe/Russia became a political/ethical choice.
Yanukovitch was corrupted, but during his mandate he kept a certain balance between the two bipolar forces of this world: west and east. Now it has been completely replaced in favor of one side through civilian unrest, and the country itself is paying the brutality of the change, whether its totally Russia's fault or totally Ukraine's fault or both. As in all revolutions, there is hard times ahead and a adaptation phase where many things will be lost.


2. How do you go from "supporting Maidan" to "being guilty of inciting civil war and annexing part of Ukraine" is beyond me.

Supporting Maidan was exactly the same as supporting Eastern unrest at its civilian desobeissance phase. The comparison stop here, you are right.


3. I loved the "well, Crimea was taken". You forgot to add "suck it up and trust us again nao, plzkthxbai". Elephant in the room is here, now please move on, nothing to see here.

Except for the obviously rigged results, the annexation of Crimea was so perfectly done that its going to be hard convincing everyone that "it needs to be re-taken".
Even if there was a new real referendum now, I doubt the population would say no to being a part of the Russian Federation, thanks to the current propaganda from both sides, which works to reinforce nationalism and territorialism.

So now its only a case of does Ukraine really want that land, and can? There's as much historical/nationalistic reasons that both Russia and Ukraine wants it... That would be a bloody mess.



Not much to say on 4., except on the "Western press, the proper, serious one - they doublecheck and report what they saw in a reasonably conservative manner, not what they read, imagined, created or simply were paid to report" which is a very nice but too crude  to be believed angelisation of a corrupted system which is the global medias of today.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 02:52:14 pm by Butan »

Offline DonNicko

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7073 on: October 13, 2014, 03:26:14 pm »
-1
4. "fake statements" and all that jazz - I would say you have these in Ukraine press, which is only natural (what with all the propaganda BS). Western press, the proper, serious one - they doublecheck and report what they saw in a reasonably conservative manner, not what they read, imagined, created or simply were paid to report. And if they report on "twitter" stuff or hearsay - they say it as it is, i.e. "based on unconfirmed sources" etc. You assume, that because your media is so full of shit, ALL worlds media is the same. Which is simply not the case.
Well I don't watch russian TV, just some channels a little, and what I watched was like "according to the statement of smb and so on". I didn't see that russian TV blamed president Poroshenko, most of blames were to right sector like 80% of video.
Also I don't watch western TV, just saw some programs with fake statements. Not many. And as I said a lot of fake information on the USA briefings made by Psaki and her assistent. Also Rasmussen.
About Crimea in the place of Poroshenko I would make a new referendum with foreign watchers, but I think it won't help anyhow. People will choose Russia again, maybe less %. It will work if Ukraine will reach EU economics and Crimea people will see that it is much better to live in Ukraine. But it will take many years, because I think that EU will just use ukranian market like new consumers. So all domestic production will die later.

Offline Anuran

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7074 on: October 13, 2014, 06:57:54 pm »
0
1. WHAT THE FUCK is russias business what ANOTHER country wants to do? Join EU, join NATO, become anti-russia: ITS SIMPLY NOT rUSSIAS BUSINESS. You presume it is, but it is simply NOT the case. Being butthurt is what russia is in this case, what with all its delusions of grandeur. And to hell with what russia asked or promised, it simply lies too much these days.




Victoria Nuland: "I think Jaz is the guy."

Victoria Nuland and Jeffrey Payette talking about the next steps in Ukraine (goes to 4:10).

After the phone call, there is a phone call in German of Helga Schmid (member of the administrative board of the European External Action Service) and Jan Tombinski (EU-ambassador in Ukraine).
Schmid is complaining about the Americans calling the EU too soft concerning sanctions and a heavy confrontation with Russia and wants Tombinski to talk to a US-ambassador to tell him that the EU is doing it more secretly to be more effective. "There shouldn't be a race [about the heavier confrontation] but it's unfair that they [the Americans] say such things [the EU is too soft]." says Schmid.

Offline Tovi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7075 on: October 13, 2014, 09:20:45 pm »
-4
Christo and Kujjis try to desperatly defend their positions. But we all know the truth now about Ukraine. The true Maidan revolution is defended by Novorossia, not by fascists and oligarchs of the West.
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Offline Christo

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7076 on: October 13, 2014, 09:25:08 pm »
0
Christo and Kujjis try to desperatly defend their positions. But we all know the truth now about Ukraine. The true Maidan revolution is defended by Novorossia, not by fascists and oligarchs of the West.

Seriously? Look the retard is trying to act all high and mighty now.

Silence yourself. Preferably commit suicide.
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Offline [ptx]

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7077 on: October 13, 2014, 10:06:03 pm »
0
"We"? Either Tovi is adopting a different strategy or is becoming delusional.

Offline The_Bloody_Nine

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7078 on: October 13, 2014, 10:59:55 pm »
0
But rapidly declining tendency. There is at least a very small thought about another big war at the back of the peoples' minds slowly coming in. You know, veeeery slowly the masses seem to figure out what's really going on. I notice that in my own environment.

The only thing I notice is people getting more and more receivable for conspiracy theories and less able to differentiate between the different media and contents they get presented and instead of seeing the complexity of things just make up their own truth. Which right now in germany seems go well with an incredible charitableness with Putin's and his fellow's actions.



also tovi just shut up or answer to the holes I showed in your 'argumentation' (or whatever you wanna call it) in the Iraq thread.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 11:03:19 pm by The_Bloody_Nine »

Offline Tovi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #7079 on: October 13, 2014, 11:25:55 pm »
-1
No, you are a fucking imbecile who doesn't keep his word.

I may be an imbecile, but I receive massive informations about what is really happening in Ukraine and about Daesh. You are probably more intelligent thanme but if you receive fake informations, your judgement will be wrong. Right ?
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