Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Kafein]

I know you just wrote that sounding all ironic, but it is a distinct possibility.

It's only funny if you have been in contact with the tropes of Russian TV.

[Butan]

Oh no, not the reddit. The actual things written in the post. Would it change anything if I posted the items here? I doub it 

I've looked over most of the content, and it is good report.
I am fairly convinced of Russian presence for a few months now, there is only debate on the scale and importance of it, which I think is minor in manpower term, but large in hardware support. The rebellion exist and it has a cause, but it has been helped by exterior agents. Probably would have gone extinct without them, or at least forgo open field battles and went underground. The newly formed Ukrainian government has all reason to fight against them and to call as much help as they can from their allies and new benefactors.
Its war, even though there is a ceasefire in effect and a political solution is open.

[Murmillus_Prime]

When you equate being anti-NATO, or people trying to understand what's really going on in a conflict and geopolitical situation to being pro-Russia nationalists, you must be an utter retard riding on the drivel drip fed to you by the system in which you were bought up. It would have been easy for myself to have just agreed with our own governments view on the situation, the media's stories reporting Kiev's point of view as fact time and time again with little to no proof while continuing to provide little to no balanced media coverage that shows the Russian governments and pro-Russian separatists point of view, but then that would be too easily and I would be deceiving myself.

You guys can dribble on in your alternate universe all you like where people who don't agree with you or who try to understand more than you are willing to do so are merely "retards". In-fact, since you think we're retards, why don't you guys just stop posting, you're arguing with retards right? Retards.

[Thomek]

I said either pro russia nationalist *or conspiracy nut..

I take all media with a grain of salt Murmi. But that doesn't mean that the opposite is always true. I'm also not particularly pro-NATO. I think its too controlled by US, and deliver way too many bombs here and there. I'm not a great fan of capitalism either, and I think wealth needs to be re-distributed at the death of any one person.

But in this case I so totally understand the Maidan protesters. I had friends there, and this was thousands of thousands of normal people, freezing outside in up to 20 minus for months and months. They have seen the west is not some kind of scary morally corrupt terrible thing the Russian propaganda paints it as. You can call it junta, or you can call it revolution. This had more in common with revolution.

Imagine France polonium poisoning a british PM they didn't like. Imagine french TV massively trying to influence british elections. Imagine half the population actually buy the shameless propaganda streaming from France. Imagine france creating a rebellion run by french intelligence commanders in Dover. Supplying them with tanks, the regular army units. Denying that they have any involvment.

This is what's happening in Ukraine.

[Leshma]

I remember reading that most of the vast atrocities brought before the war crimes tribunal happened after the NATO bombings, which only increased the violence. (edit: found the article: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200005--.html)

The document you have selected is temporarily missing or invalid.

Kosovo has been a problem for Serbia/Yugoslavia for almost a century. It's not something that popped out of thin air during the 90s. But communist government had different approach and tried to appease Albanians who lived in Kosovo. Things changed with Milosevic (he came to power in 1987), that is when mass killings started. I'm fairly sure more people has been killed before NATO bombing. After NATO bombing Serbia lost most of the influence, Serbian minority fled the territory because "terrorists" or fighters were raiding their homes. Doubt that Serbian government could organize mass killings of Albanian civilians after NATO bombing, country was too weak, that is why Milosevic capitulated. Serbian people didn't know any of that in the beginning, because Milosevic was a tyrant and common people were busy with different matters (how to survive the war, inflation, sanctions, criminals...)

Whole thing started during Ottoman Empire, both Serbs and Albanians were part of Ottoman Empire for centuries and held some pretty important positions. As Ottomans weakened, they pushed out former non muslims away from positions of power. People who live in Kosovo and consider themselves Albanians are actually descendants of former Slavic converts to Islam. That's the true reason for strong hatred between them. True Albanians could never hate Serbs (and vice versa) like converts did. There is a saying but dunno how to properly translate it. It goes something like this: A convert is worse than a Turk. And it's very true, because those who did the worst crimes in many wars during past centuries were always some kind of converts.

And as time passed, Kosovo Albanians grew in numbers (thanks to their religion and huge losses Serbia had during both World Wars) and they became majority. Serbs who lived in Kosovo didn't care much about it, mostly used it for their own gain. Now everyone in Serbia is crying how "Kosovo is heart of Serbia" but truth is they didn't give actual fuck what will happen to Kosovo, they just exploited it.

Fun fact that many people don't know is that both Croatians and Serbs in the beginning were Slavs who lived on borders and were mainly soldiers, whose role was to protect "Slavic Empire in the making" from outsiders. That is why they fought so many wars in history, which is unusual for such smallish countries.

[Butan]

Imagine France polonium poisoning a british PM they didn't like. Imagine french TV massively trying to influence british elections. Imagine half the population actually buy the shameless propaganda streaming from France. Imagine france creating a rebellion run by french intelligence commanders in Dover. Supplying them with tanks, the regular army units. Denying that they have any involvment.

Our european government would need balls to plan such a thing all they do is follow US wars and/or bomb weak countries to death.

I wonder what polonium poisoning accusations, election frauds, propaganda has to do with Ukraine current civil war situation example btw? Was Ianukovitch prime minister poisoned? Was his election done by Russian citizens? Was Russian TV responsible for the Ukrainian choice?
And the "rebellion created" accusation is so FUBAR... the supplying is ok though.

For the sake of your example:
If England had a 10 times weaker army than France and wasnt in any diplomatic union, and England had just switched to France deadly enemy while housing a large french minority inside its borders and launching anti-terrorist forces and army against anyone who dared protest. Well, lets say I would... (very dangerous word ahead...) UNDERSTAND.

(click to show/hide)

INB4 someone confuses understanding with supporting.

(click to show/hide)

I think Russia is bad for doing it 

[Murmillus_Prime]

I said either pro russia nationalist *or conspiracy nut..

I take all media with a grain of salt Murmi. But that doesn't mean that the opposite is always true. I'm also not particularly pro-NATO. I think its too controlled by US, and deliver way too many bombs here and there. I'm not a great fan of capitalism either, and I think wealth needs to be re-distributed at the death of any one person.

But in this case I so totally understand the Maidan protesters. I had friends there, and this was thousands of thousands of normal people, freezing outside in up to 20 minus for months and months. They have seen the west is not some kind of scary morally corrupt terrible thing the Russian propaganda paints it as. You can call it junta, or you can call it revolution. This had more in common with revolution.

Imagine France polonium poisoning a british PM they didn't like. Imagine french TV massively trying to influence british elections. Imagine half the population actually buy the shameless propaganda streaming from France. Imagine france creating a rebellion run by french intelligence commanders in Dover. Supplying them with tanks, the regular army units. Denying that they have any involvment.

This is what's happening in Ukraine.

Conspiracy nut.. Right. There are always government conspiracies to subvert the public opinion and at the same time galvanise the same public to support what on the surface appears to be a noble or just cause when really there is another agenda not disseminated through the media to the public, as per the example I provided in the other thread about retired generals attempting to galvanise support for boots on the ground or to arm the Syrian rebels in Iraq/Syria to face ISIS/Assad. On the face of it from the medias portrayal it's as though they give opinions freely based on the knowledge of their past experience in the military, when in reality they are paid for their opinions and in some cases have vested interests in on-going conflicts through the sale of arms. Therefore the media is complicit in withholding the whole truth and decides to only portray half the truth so that the argument given by the paid commentators are not detracted from.

http://www.academia.org/how-elites-subvert-policy/

While I don't agree with some information in the link posted, I quote this paragraph from the link provided, as it does seem apt in light of some of the commentators here.

"He said that the Americans do not understand important parts of policies, like trade-offs, and too often “respond to poll questions in a vacuum.” Americans, Thrall lamented, “express their feelings and emotions rather than their lack of knowledge” and these polls “reflect feelings about the president and the rest of the world,” but “don’t provide much in conventional wisdom.”"

As we've seen with this whole focus on Putin, and names childish names being disseminated such as "Putler", and the lack of focus on all actors in this mess and the overriding geopolitical aspects.

And, regardless of the emotional investment you have in the situation Thomek, a coup is a coup. You can view it through rose tinted glasses if you like but that's what it is. If the Ukrainian parliament had impeached Yanukovych without the death threats from the armed protestors largely associated with the right sector camp then I guess Russia, and other people in the world could not call what happened a coup, and his overthrow would be considered legitimate by all parties involved in todays mess.

[DonNicko]

Today morning Donetsk was shelled about 38 times. For now about 20 civilians were killed, 6 are seriously wounded, about 18 people are easily wounded.
Great ceasefire from Kiev. Now somebody will say that they bomb themselves.

[Butan]

Today morning Donetsk was shelled about 38 times. For now about 20 civilians were killed, 6 are seriously wounded, about 18 people are easily wounded.
Great ceasefire from Kiev. Now somebody will say that they bomb themselves.

How many artillery strike from rebel side though?

I think the ceasefire is not perfectly applied but still in effect right?

[DonNicko]

How many artillery strike from rebel side though?

I think the ceasefire is not perfectly applied but still in effect right?

Yes ceasefire is still in effect, about rebels there is no information, as they say they didn't answer this shelling yet, but maybe they are lying, anyway 20 civilians are dead

[Kalam]

I said either pro russia nationalist *or conspiracy nut..

I take all media with a grain of salt Murmi. But that doesn't mean that the opposite is always true. I'm also not particularly pro-NATO. I think its too controlled by US, and deliver way too many bombs here and there. I'm not a great fan of capitalism either, and I think wealth needs to be re-distributed at the death of any one person.

But in this case I so totally understand the Maidan protesters. I had friends there, and this was thousands of thousands of normal people, freezing outside in up to 20 minus for months and months. They have seen the west is not some kind of scary morally corrupt terrible thing the Russian propaganda paints it as. You can call it junta, or you can call it revolution. This had more in common with revolution.

Imagine France polonium poisoning a british PM they didn't like. Imagine french TV massively trying to influence british elections. Imagine half the population actually buy the shameless propaganda streaming from France. Imagine france creating a rebellion run by french intelligence commanders in Dover. Supplying them with tanks, the regular army units. Denying that they have any involvment.

This is what's happening in Ukraine.

I do believe the Maidan revolution was justified- shooting your own citizens is always a red flag. However, the United States should not have been involved in it. It's not our backyard. It's Russia's. Why are we messing with it? That's what I'm annoyed with. And then we're (Americans) acting as if the Russians had no justification to do this.

[Anuran]

From 2012. Besides other aspects this guy also talks about a world war, which for example can save the dollar.

[Lt_Anders]

From 2012. Besides other aspects this guy also talks about a world war, which for example can save the dollar.

You know what will save the dollar? People in America Realizing that in 4 years, spending your entire GDP won't help it. Removing Socialism will save the dollar, not a WW3.

[Kalam]

You know what will save the dollar? People in America Realizing that in 4 years, spending your entire GDP won't help it. Removing Socialism will save the dollar, not a WW3.

Socialism and capitalism on their own don't work. They're idealistic economic systems that haven't really been implemented anywhere. Using arguments for or against utopian dreams of narrow systems like that doesn't make any sense. That's like saying all pictures are black or white and photos without white are useless, as if the rest of the color spectrum doesn't exist. As if most pictures don't include multiple colors.

Do we want to start World War III because of "EVIL SOCIALISM"?

[Swaggart]

You know what will save the dollar? People in America Realizing that in 4 years, spending your entire GDP won't help it. Removing Socialism will save the dollar, not a WW3.

Ah yes. Get rid of entitlements and social programs. That will stop America from sliding further into debt. Reducing military spending, which happens to dwarf those of the next several nations clearly will not help as much as getting rid of food stamps so those poor disenfranchised black people can eat.

Come to think of it, seeing as how the US defense industry has strategically placed itself across states and counties employing hundeds of thousands of people, and seeing as how the US is their biggest customer, I guess it can be seen as a socialist jobs program.

Maybe you're on to something there Anders. Actually you're not, you're just one of those big government is evil kind of misinformed voter that while at the same time yelling shit about how socialism is bad and evil without realizing how much socialism has contributed to the wealth of America as a country.