Throwing Nerf

[bruce]

I am not sure about this, but I believe you may be misinformed. Last generation, I had a 10 PT archer, and it certainly didn't FEEL like I was doing 90 cut damage per shot with a longbow

Because damage is highly dependent on speed bonus and for ranged weapons, ranged also. For instance, take a MW sniper crossbow postpatch, which does I believe 100p, which should on paper oneshot just about everyone, right? Point-blank, with a 21 str / 2 IF / 43 armour rating char, it oneshots once in three times and leaves me with 5% HP max. At say 25m, it takes 55-60% of my HP away.  This is all stationary. Moving away, the damage is even less, moving forward, significantly increased.

It's the same with melee weapons, except with melee weapons you often have favourable speed bonus if you time your attacks correctly. The damage is worse when you try it out stationary, much less when you attack someone running away.

But anyway... the skills give the same bonuses as they do in native. We may be able to change this soon, but now, no.

[Cup1d]

Currently, there is no way to change what skills do

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,42360.msg1097768.html#msg1097768

So, you can do with skill all what you want. With python coding. And as I know - chadz is not a bad coder.

[EponiCo]

Well, that's not exactly the same, actually.
But since cmp did the WSE thingy it should be comparably easy to exchange a few bytes with new values...

[Cup1d]

Well, that's not exactly the same, actually.

You can do new skill, name it as you want and make it work. What else you need?
And you can make it without WSE.

[EponiCo]

In this thread they said the power skills are hardcoded (that most likely means not changeable with the taleworlds modding system), that you can make new skills has nothing to do with it. But well, I'm no expert on it, just saying that what you posted does little to prove that they already could change it for cRPG.

[Native_ATS]

I love how people put arbitrary and false comments right off the back and backs it up with heresay and lies.

First off, you claim at 7 power throw, you say you kill "ANYONE" who has less than 50 body armor in 1 hit with a throwing lance. This is false. At 50 body armor, at power throw 7, as someone who has played extensively on both sides of the lance, this is not true. Unless it is a fairly lucky shot, you will survive a lance thrown at you from someone with power throw of 7, unless you have 0 IF and very low strength. If you have 0 IF and very low strength, this is your build's weakness, and you more than make up for it in other ways.

Huscarl shields break from 2 lances. Sometimes true. At the same time, look at the cost for one huscarl shield in your inventory and look at the cost of 1 stack of throwing lances in your inventory. They are both very expensive, but the shielder with the huscarl shield can survive without the shield. If this was your last stack of lances, you would be defenseless. I say its a fair trade off.

Thirdly: you claim PT adds 10% damage in C-RPG. This is false. Like power strike and power draw, PT only adds 8% damage per level. If you think that is overpowered, then complain about power strike as well.

adding 1-2 PT won't reduce the spam. False. Less availability= less abundance.  It would also give players incentives to play a different build, since building a hybrid thrower would be significantly more difficult. Remember: increasing the PT requirements by 2 is the equivalent of increasing a weapon's strength requirement by 6. This makes it much more difficult to use.

"Going 8 PT with lances and 2h is very easy." This is an opinion statement. I would say that couch-lancing is easy, or that archery is easy. Neither one would be a definitive fact. You might find throwing agreeable to your playstyle, but thats just you.

"Aiming is easy." Take a look at your aimer. It is the most inaccurate ranged weapon in the game. If throwing lances are easy to hit with, by golly, all ranged weapons are easy-mode. Lances are the most inaccurate, and one of the slowest projectile speed weapons in the game.

+1

[Tydeus]

Sorry for the disorganized post, I wasn't about to read 8 pages of bickering.

I rolled a 24/12 2h spec with 8 IF last gen, the only two occasions I didn't get one shot by throwing lances were when Leman threw lances at me(He said he had the minimum PT required for them, mind you he was a hybrid sword and board + throwing build using the highest tier throwing weapon) and he would always do no less than 4/5 my hp, the other is when I wore plate and I would still only have a sliver of hp left(it is pierce damage after all).

Thinking about this realistically though, javelins can't be thrown in real life at the speed they are in game. Why should throwing weapons be the only exception to reality(aside from cutting damage on plate armor, for obvious reasons). Of course this isn't an argument many people will take note of(it is a video game after all) but I think this should raise a red flag.

Lets just throw up some numbers for throwing lances real fast:

7PT*8%damage=42% extra damage.
60p*1.42 = 85.2 damage
60p*12PT=117.6 damage
Now lets look at the popular German Greatsword with its wonderful thrust damage. We'll use the same power swing for the example as well.
30p*1.42=42.6
30p*1.96=58.8

The German Greatsword does half the damage after the damage modifier, as one would expect.
Now lets throw some armor into the mix and start with the German Greatsword. I got these numbers from the infinitum damage calculator and I realize there is no speed bonus calculated which would only serve to help throwing more than 2h damage.

Armor: 50(This is how much I have with a Cavalry Robe at 9.5 weight, not exactly tanky body armor)
WPF: 1
PS 7: 9-24 damage, average: 16.5
PS 12: 19-36 damage, average: 27.5

And for the Throwing Lances
Armor: 50
WPF: 1
PT 7: 39-59, average: 49
PT 12: 56-80, average: 68

Add WPF into the mix and you're looking at twice as much damage increase for the Throwing Lance as you are the German Greatsword. 100 WPF is roughly a 25% damage increase.

Throwing lances do three times as much damage as the best pierce damaging Two-Handed weapon. We can go through all the advantages and disadvantages of throwing vs 2h spec later. For now, just look at the numbers.

[bruce]

It's definitely 10%. I had a sword and board char with 7 PT & 100 wpf throwing lances, it was deadlier then the old sniper crossbow, and considerably more deadly then the new sniper crossbow. (btw, same build is doable now, with 21/15 and 120-ish 1h wpf and 100 throwing, which is altogether very effective).

But of course, throwers are going to be all over every nerf throwing thread until it gets its proper rebalance, trying to say it's not trivial to score kills with throwing, so whatever.

[balbaroth]

"Aiming is easy." Take a look at your aimer. It is the most inaccurate ranged weapon in the game. If throwing lances are easy to hit with, by golly, all ranged weapons are easy-mode. Lances are the most inaccurate, and one of the slowest projectile speed weapons in the game.

 the way throwing lances are used are easy to aim , throwers dont use it to throw from far they wait til they are 2-5feets from the target  and wham !!  your dead

[Nemeth]

Feel like it fits this thread as well.

So I made a thrower char, currently sitting at 24 str 3 agi. Tried throwing lances and yes, I can honestly say, they are stupid. Whoever is saying their drawback is terrible accuracy is either lying or bad. There is no problem whatsoever with 8 PT and 80ish wpf to hit anyone close range (that is NOT melee range). Obviously, you wont be sniping people far away from you, but with throwing lances you dont have to. With my 8 PT, everytime I hit someone he died in one shot. I am a terrible thrower, my leading target with throwing weapons is bad beyond bad and whenever I use something else than lances I'm happy for 1 K/D ratio. With lances, I have no problem to go 2+.
Not to mention they are quite potent melee weapons as well, so you can always keep one of them if you run out and just poke people, taking on the support role.

[MountedRhader]

http://img21.imageshack.us/i/mb73.jpg/
http://img854.imageshack.us/i/mb74.jpg/ ._.

[Seawied]

Add WPF into the mix and you're looking at twice as much damage increase for the Throwing Lance as you are the German Greatsword. 100 WPF is roughly a 25% damage increase.

Throwing lances do three times as much damage as the best pierce damaging Two-Handed weapon. We can go through all the advantages and disadvantages of throwing vs 2h spec later. For now, just look at the numbers.

its actually 17% more damage at 100 wpf, but you're looking at a weapon that requires considerably less strength than a throwing lance... and the pierce damage for 2h isn't that great anymore. They're really apples and oranges. I wouldn't make a comparison between the two.




As for the pictures thedashingrogue posted: doesn't prove squat. I can put screenshots of the many times I've been 1shoted by a weapon of any class, but that doesn't say that the weapon is OP.

@Balb: even at 5 feet away, you have a chance to miss. At 2 feet away, they bump you and you are unable to throw. Can you use at close range? sure. But ALL ranged weapons can be used the same way.

Honestly, the only way throwing lances are used in an effective manner is taking down horses. The only time I ever use them is if there is an abundance of cavalry. There are simply so many better options for dealing with infantry than throwing lances. Hell, I'd rather have a few stacks of war-darts than throwing lances if I'm dealing with infantry.

[Spawny]

Hmm... the 1-2 combo against cavalry. Pre-patch it was the bread and butter against cav.

1 hit the armoured horse right before you get lanced, 2 kill the armoured rider in 1 hit as he lies defenceless at your feet.

1 problem though, if you missed the horse you were dead and if you missed the rider, you had a very angry 24-30 agility knight with 200+ wpf in polearms storming you.

Right now I can do the same with jarids or heavy throwing axes. I have yet to see a head on charging horse survive one of my axes. When they're riding away, they can take up to 3 before dying. But that's fine.

[Tydeus]

its actually 17% more damage at 100 wpf, but you're looking at a weapon that requires considerably less strength than a throwing lance... and the pierce damage for 2h isn't that great anymore. They're really apples and oranges. I wouldn't make a comparison between the two.

I'd love to see where you got those numbers from, the infinitum calculator specifically shows otherwise. With the tests I ran it showed a minimum of 22.5% increase up to 30% plus, the greatest increase showing up from a larger base damage. I should also point out that even if it requires less strength, We're comparing the highest tier throwing weapon to the highest tier Two-Handed pierce damage, third highest tier sword over-all, the best of their class if you will. Hell, even if you look at polearms, the best pierce damage you could do is only 36 with the Bec. We're looking at some of the best possible damage you can do to a 50 armored foe(specifically, the gap widens as you add more armor) as each class, not sweet apples and tangy oranges.

Honestly, the only way throwing lances are used in an effective manner is taking down horses. The only time I ever use them is if there is an abundance of cavalry. There are simply so many better options for dealing with infantry than throwing lances. Hell, I'd rather have a few stacks of war-darts than throwing lances if I'm dealing with infantry.

This is all just opinion (that I would disagree with mind you), there isn't a single supporting argument to be found here.

1 problem though, if you missed the horse you were dead and if you missed the rider, you had a very angry 24-30 agility knight with 200+ wpf in polearms storming you.

Isn't it like that for everyone, not just throwing at point blank range? You miss your attack, you wind up dead.

On a side note: I don't care what people say about risk and reward. If you're comparing ranged to melee, it should be blatantly obvious that if you can only defend yourself in close range, you're taking a much larger risk than anyone else. I should probably also add that if you argue the risk/reward for Throwing Lances, you're completely ignoring common sense all-together. Aside from headshots, if you shoot someone in real life with a glock you're not going to kill them in one or two shots. It'll take more than two shots to kill them on the spot but a sword you can easily kill someone with a single blow. Does that mean that swords should be used by the Military or the police force instead? Hell no. Guns provide range which is much safer to the user, it's the most intrinsic property of ranged.

[Taggerung]

Boohoo! Throwers are killing me! Nerf them!

Shut up, buy a shitty shield and laugh as you close the distance and murder them in melee because any dedicated thrower will have no ironflesh, at max 50-60 wpf in a melee weapon, and will rarely have more than 3 athletics because any good thrower has power throw 10 so you can two/three hit people with war darts.

You have a problem with lances? Buy a shitty shield or two, and watch them waste their only 2 lances on those shields...and then murder them

You have a problem with javelins?  See above

You have a problem with axes? Dodge them until you are close and use above shitty shield that requires no skill to use

You have a problem with darts/snowflakes/knives/rocks? BUY A DAMN SHIELD


With my thrower I laugh at all the 2h spammers that just run at me and get a lance in the chest or foot or where ever it actually hits them. I then cry as I see anyone with a shield coming right at me because unless the 2 lances I have break their shield...I am boned. With my 2hander, I again laugh as a thrower desperately tries to run away as I am faster than them, and soak up or dodge all their weapons and then murder them in melee.

In short...BUY A DAMN SHIELD