Dagger and Long Dagger

[Rusty_Shacklefjord]

Why don't these weapons have the ability to block?

Historically, these were very popular weapons, useful in tandem with other weapons, as a backup, or even on their own. There are a plethora of short blade techniques in historical european martial arts to attest to this, and I'm a little disappointed by how useless they are in cRPG.

I'm not saying that they should be a great stand-alone weapon, but I think at the very least they should be usable. As they are now you're not much better off with a dagger than you would be with your fists, and it's a shame. With the ability to block, they could find some use as a light back-up weapon, like the hammer and other 0-slot weapons like it.

Decrease the damage by a few points, even, if you're concerned about balance. Or increase the price, or make it a 1-slot weapon. I don't care what you do - I just want these daggers to be useful!

Even the wakizashi, the eastern equivalent of the dagger, has the ability to block - although its excessively high price/upkeep makes it somewhat impractical for most players.

[Zaren]

Why don't these weapons have the ability to block?

Historically, these were very popular weapons, useful in tandem with other weapons, as a backup, or even on their own. There are a plethora of short blade techniques in historical european martial arts to attest to this, and I'm a little disappointed by how useless they are in cRPG.

I'm not saying that they should be a great stand-alone weapon, but I think at the very least they should be usable. As they are now you're not much better off with a dagger than you would be with your fists, and it's a shame. With the ability to block, they could find some use as a light back-up weapon, like the hammer and other 0-slot weapons like it.

Decrease the damage by a few points, even, if you're concerned about balance. Or increase the price, or make it a 1-slot weapon. I don't care what you do - I just want these daggers to be useful!

Even the wakizashi, the eastern equivalent of the dagger, has the ability to block - although its excessively high price/upkeep makes it somewhat unpractical for most players.

its way to frigin fast for it to block PLUS in a battle i HIGHLY doubt a small knife could block a sword. Think about it, chances are you would end up getting your fingers cut if you tried to block lets say a sword of war or the like with it. A GOOD player can do well with a dagger against anyone(of course to a certain extent) martial arts do not cover for all fighting, just because rapiers were famous weapons doesnt mean that if a person used one he could block a large heavy broad sword times).

AND the wakazashi was a good 2-2.5 feet long which is quite a bit longer than a dagger that would normally be used in that time period.

[Rusty_Shacklefjord]

its way to frigin fast for it to block PLUS in a battle i HIGHLY doubt a small knife could block a sword. Think about it, chances are you would end up getting your fingers cut if you tried to block lets say a sword of war or the like with it. A GOOD player can do well with a dagger against anyone(of course to a certain extent)

As I said, daggers were very practical and saw widespread use. Many, many people were killed by daggers, even in battle. It's easy enough to block with them, as you may be able to see if you check youtube for some dagger-related videos.

If their high speed would make them unbalanced, then reduce the speed - even though realistically they ARE a very fast weapon. On the same note, a player using a dagger to block a heavy weapon would probably find himself stunlocked fairly often due to the large difference in weapon weights, which would also help to balance them.

Personally, I've only ever seen ONE player use a dagger effectively. His build was centered around the dagger, and had very high agility to allow him to dodge strikes using footwork rather than blocking them.

I'm a pretty skilled player myself, and I've only been able to get a few rare kills using the dagger. Its short length makes it nearly impossible to kill anyone but the poorest of peasants.

[Zaren]

As I said, daggers were very practical and saw widespread use. Many, many people were killed by daggers, even in battle. It's easy enough to block with them, as you may be able to see if you check youtube for some dagger-related videos.

If their high speed would make them unbalanced, then reduce the speed - even though realistically they ARE a very fast weapon. On the same note, a player using a dagger to block a heavy weapon would probably find himself stunlocked fairly often due to the large difference in weapon weights, which would also help to balance them.

you tube doesnt give a REAL battle situation. on YOUTUBE people would attempt to block and the other person isnt trying to KILL THEM. The reason its FUN to use them is because they are light and fast(really really fast) if you nerf the damage then no more point. I mean really if you want a fast dagger then its called an ESPADA

[Christo]

Indeed.

The closest you can get, is one of the short swords, if you want blocking.

[dodnet]

Its completely unrealistic to block with a dagger. You would loose your fingers, your hand, your arm while trying so.

[Zaren]

I'm a pretty skilled player myself, and I've only been able to get a few rare kills using the dagger. Its short length makes it nearly impossible to kill anyone but the poorest of peasants.

nice... quite a modest one aren't you. Just from that tone i can tell your not near the top(as in IF YOU WERE REALLY that good then you could kill anyone with anything)

[Tomas]

You can chamber block with daggers and that leaves them nicely balanced imo.

Skilled people are very good with them (Massassin) whilst the rest of us can still have a bit of fun with them.

I do think they should have a couple more points of pierce damage on the thrust though.

[Dravic]

You can chamber block with daggers and that leaves them nicely balanced imo.

Skilled people are very good with them (Massassin) whilst the rest of us can still have a bit of fun with them.

I do think they should have a couple more points of pierce damage on the thrust though.

Actually, daggers should have such statistics:

Dagger
weapon length: 36
weight: 0.2
speed rating: 114
weapon length: 36
thrust damage: 34 pierce
swing damage: 26 cut
slots: 0
260

Long Dagger
weapon length: 47
weight: 0.2
speed rating: 112
weapon length: 47
thrust damage: 31 pierce
swing damage: 24 cut
slots: 0
390

[Gravoth_iii]

Just give them some sort of backstab bonus, if possible. Has been suggested before and should really be implemented.

[Dravic]

Just give them some sort of backstab bonus, if possible. Has been suggested before and should really be implemented.

Yeah, harder to implement, but much more balanced.

In case of implementing backstab bonus, forget about new stats. Just give backstabbing with daggers +100% to damage.

25 pierce * 200% = 50 pierce

Enough to kill archer. Now if you combine this with correct speed bonus, it can kill 70% of characters in cRPG in one hit.

You say: overpowered? Nope, it isn't. Any aware guy can quickly change the direction he's looking at, so that he doesn't receive the additional 1
00% damage and can easily kill the daggerman. Also, mind you, that backstabbing requires a stealthy approach and is very risky.

I want such a mechanic, for sake of assassin roleplaying.

To balance things out, though, give daggers flag so they can't be used with shield and combine it with flag so they can't be used on horseback - I know that daggers are too short to use them on horseback, but if someone actually managed to aim it with godly accuracy...
Oh, and if you want, you can also put flag "unsheathable" - I don't care. Just implement backstabbing mechanism for daggers!

[Christo]

(click to show/hide)

Yeah, harder to implement, but much more balanced.

In case of implementing backstab bonus, forget about new stats. Just give backstabbing with daggers +100% to damage.

25 pierce * 200% = 50 pierce

Enough to kill archer. Now if you combine this with correct speed bonus, it can kill 70% of characters in cRPG in one hit.

You say: overpowered? Nope, it isn't. Any aware guy can quickly change the direction he's looking at, so that he doesn't receive the additional 1
00% damage and can easily kill the daggerman. Also, mind you, that backstabbing requires a stealthy approach and is very risky.

I want such a mechanic, for sake of assassin roleplaying.

To balance things out, though, give daggers flag so they can't be used with shield and combine it with flag so they can't be used on horseback - I know that daggers are too short to use them on horseback, but if someone actually managed to aim it with godly accuracy...
Oh, and if you want, you can also put flag "unsheathable" - I don't care. Just implement backstabbing mechanism for daggers!

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I approve.

[Rusty_Shacklefjord]

Again, it's completely possible to block with daggers. For example:

http://youtu.be/P-mQtis2IiU?t=28s

Notice how he's comfortably able to block with the knife, despite its small size (especially compared to medieval daggers, which were quite large). In fact, one of the primary uses of the dagger was to allow a smallsword user to block with his off hand.

This may be less practical against heavier weapons, but there is already a mechanic in place to simulate that, isn't there? When blocking a greatsword, for example, the dagger's low weight would leave you stunlocked and unable to immediately retaliate. Heck, if you wanted you could even add crushthrough vs. daggers on weapons above a certain weight (maybe?)

I already said in the OP that I don't expect them to be amazing - just useful. The other small 0-slot weapons can block, why can't the daggers? I understand that it's possible to parry with them and 'block' that way, but that's not much of a consolation. You can do the same with your fists, and I don't see many people getting punching kills either. If the ability to block would make them overpowered, compensate by making them slower or weaker, in addition to having a very short range.

Also, I dislike the idea of giving them a backstab bonus. It would be a fun feature, but very unrealistic. Daggers weren't really used as an 'assassination' weapon, or if they were it was only because they could be easily concealed. Rather, they were used in direct confrontations to deliver superficial cuts and lethal stabs, especially vs. grounded opponents (like a downed knight or an enemy that you're wrestling with).

[Christo]

Why would it be unrealistic?

While sure, in a battlefield sneaking is quite hard to pull off, but still, there's nothing holding you back to sneak up on somebody, grab their neck and stab them. It's damn realistic I'd say.

And if the target is armored, you have to push it into a weakspot.

[Konrax]

You can block an attack in real life with a dagger.

It's not the ideal weapon to use for blocking, but it can be done.