cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Molly on September 12, 2014, 09:21:11 pm

Title: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Molly on September 12, 2014, 09:21:11 pm
I know there was a thread about this before but I couldn't find it.

I played on a certain map - all beach, few constructs with a tower and a lot of high grass - and while I was reloading in said high grass I got shot. Figured it must have been a lucky random hit, moved a few steps sideways and started reloading again and got hit by an arrows once more which killed me.
So, I got curious and checked on that player who killed me. After a few seconds I realized what was going on:

While I was spectating said player shot at targets I couldn't make out and I checked his points now and then. They kept rising. He even killed a guy with a headshot which I couldn't see as spectator.
I kept spectating whenever I was dead and it was just painfully obvious that this player was shooting at targets I couldn't see behind the high grass simply because he didn't see it.

I know it's difficult and can't be checked technically but when it's so obvious... is there anything that we can do? Should we even do something about it?
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Tanken on September 12, 2014, 09:22:50 pm
Post the player's name so we can publicly shame them. Shoot first, ask questions later.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Grumbs on September 12, 2014, 09:27:10 pm
Yes but its not against the rules afaik
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Joseph Porta on September 12, 2014, 09:39:37 pm
Fuck yes, its is 200% immersion breaking, hiding in the bushes lost it's meaning, it removes the aspect of surprise. So gey aswell
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Grumbs on September 12, 2014, 09:42:48 pm
Just to be clear..common sense rule should apply imo, but we had several threads were it was suggested by devs that its not a big deal so you can mod what you like
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: vipere on September 12, 2014, 10:02:40 pm

15 : 35

thats how ghost bush look like.

Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Jack1 on September 12, 2014, 10:42:19 pm
It is an exploit that gives unfair advantages. Any remodeling of textures other than things like the loom pack should be punishable. There is no need for any of that except to gain an unfair advantage and ruin your own immersion.

The video in the OP of this other thread shows just about of all the mods that should be bannable.  http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/cavalry-being-reared-from-the-side/
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: F i n on September 12, 2014, 10:49:45 pm
I'd ban ppl i see doing that.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: matt2507 on September 12, 2014, 10:55:33 pm
Fuck yes, its is 200% immersion breaking, hiding in the bushes lost it's meaning, it removes the aspect of surprise. So gey aswell

being the fact that you can get through without any kind of penalties and that this also applies to projectiles or any physics related stuff, it's also a great immersion breaking atm.
Removing them is not realy fair but after all, cRPG is a mod for warband and the modding is still open. You can't realy call that "cheating". It's more a kind of "exploiting" imo.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Jack1 on September 13, 2014, 12:14:32 am
It's more a kind of "exploiting" imo.

Quote
General rules
•No exploiting of any kind
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on September 13, 2014, 12:22:40 am
There's no way to block all these types of exploitations without simultaneously stunting the ability of independent modders to use cRPG to create items. We have to be able to use different colors and meshes on in game items in multiplayer cRPG servers.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Dooz on September 13, 2014, 12:23:57 am
please change human nature, thx
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: BlindGuy on September 13, 2014, 12:27:53 am

15 : 35

thats how ghost bush look like.

Derail but you see those russian bastards destroy the cheese-eaters? Fucking love those ruskies, one by one they eat my axe but when they surround you might aswell slit your own throat.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Rico on September 13, 2014, 12:30:39 am
The Warband engine makes it impossible to hide behind anything but solid objects, and character shadows with environment shadows disabled sometimes make even this impossible.

There are lots of games you can play when you like to fight the stealthy way. Warband simply isn't one of them. It's better to accept that hiding isn't a viable strategy, because you cannot look at people's screens whenever they are playing to check which boring exploits they are using.

Of course I dislike it myself, but I stopped raging about it.

Edit: typo
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Digglez on September 13, 2014, 01:08:37 am
devs should really add a simple file check so people cant do this or alter the game files in any fashion.  adopted mods like heirloom pack could be checked for integrity as well
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Donkey_Thrower on September 13, 2014, 01:12:36 am
the only way this can be detected is by observation.  I say ban them if you catch them doing something shady like this.

Kind of like ESP or any other memory based cheats, undetectable but an active admin should be able to sniff it out
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 01:15:36 am
devs should really add a simple file check so people cant do this or alter the game files in any fashion.  adopted mods like heirloom pack could be checked for integrity as well

Like we really need to keep giving players a reason to leave
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Hirlok on September 13, 2014, 01:21:20 am
we had several leeeeengthy threads about this in the past - and it is still the same thing:
some idiots need their epeen and try to "win" by using flat vegetation (very clear on that battle map with the huge grass - a certain cav player is ALWAYS lancing in there with pinpoint accuracy where he shouldn't be able to see shit...), transparent walls, rain/fog removal, etc.

As long range archer it is your job to take up firing positions with good cover - and after some time you realize: there is no such thing in c-rpg, because around 30% of the players across all classes are using one or more cheats of this sort.

This has been known for a long time, AFAIK it would be easy to fix (make list of allowed mods or integrate them into the official release, check file integrity at every launch), but obviously nobody has ever seen the need for it, "cuz fuck realism".

Of course a file check CAN be circumvented, but that is way harder than just editing a couple of files, and would reduce this sort of nonsense.
Way better than leave it to (never biased and never brocoding and never otherwise "not so objective") admins...
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 01:36:58 am
Way better than leave it to (never biased and never brocoding and never otherwise "not so objective") admins...

crpg is 100% brocoding, that hasn't changed in four years and likely won't for the foreseeable future, you might as well not even bother
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Macropus on September 13, 2014, 01:59:17 am
Devs themselves introduced a "red banner over the enemies' heads" feature with WSE 2, not much different from removing the bushes.

My point is - both should be forbidden.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Jeade on September 13, 2014, 02:00:51 am
hiding isn't a viable strategy

NARMY still accepting applications.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on September 13, 2014, 02:54:31 am
Well first of all in response to Digglez and Hirlok;

A whitelist/blacklist for textures that is applied at startup wouldn't be enough, because people could easily circumvent that. Textures/meshes can be replaced once the game has already started and when you enter multiplayer/a server your textures/meshes load. There would have to be a check every time a player tries to enter a server.

That is to say even if we had a startup check for a whitelist of client-side files, people could still just replace textures once their game is started. You could literally just keep a folder with all your normal textures and a folder with all your neon pink textures, and just swap it out once your past the check and your multiplayer match will load the neon pink textures. It would take a cheater like two extra button clicks and 8 seconds.

The other problem is that you are crimping the creative freedom of cRPG players who want to design items for themselves or the public, or just mod the game to have fun.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on September 13, 2014, 05:44:11 am
It is dumb and makes your game look dumb and you can top the scoreboard without being dumb like this.

Blacklist/whitelist would, as daruvian said, fuck over the guy that just wants to make his sword look like a lightsaber or use custom armor. The cheaters could bypass it with no effort. It would be a waste of devs' time.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Turkhammer on September 13, 2014, 06:01:19 am
Yes but its not against the rules afaik

That's easily changed.

People get banned for lot's of things here that aren't specifically spelled out in the rules.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Turkhammer on September 13, 2014, 06:03:15 am
Like we really need to keep giving players a reason to leave

If players can't compete without hacks and cheats then they should fuck off.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Dooz on September 13, 2014, 06:12:23 am
If players can't compete with players who use hacks and cheats they should fuck off.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on September 13, 2014, 06:16:08 am
If players can't use hacks and cheats they should fuck off.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Battlepriest on September 13, 2014, 06:39:10 am
how can we play hide and seek without bushes :(
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Molly on September 13, 2014, 08:36:24 am
It's not that I really care about being killed. I am rather bad at the game, so I do die a lot.
The reason I made this thread is that it was never that obvious to me that someone is using something to gain an unfair advantage.

Never seen an autoblocker, never seen someone using macros (maybe simply not able to spot it) and never before did I see someone who played obviously without vegetation.

Personally, I dunno if it's a good idea to leave it to the admins. There is a high chance that someone gets banned for just being lucky/good. On the other hand, if an admin feels comfortable and secure enough to endure the following shit storm in here, I wouldn't mind either. Kinda torn between the two options.

Guess we'll just have to deal with it. I sure am more aware now after seeing it "live".
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Latvian on September 13, 2014, 09:13:44 am
i would gladly accept instructions how to remove bushes, i dont see why some people would have that advantage over the others.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Sagar on September 13, 2014, 10:04:17 am
cRPG now:
- no fog
- no flora
- transparent walls
- neon weapons

So many abusing without any penalty.

We need file check - if there is file changes - not able to join server.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: PsychoTwins on September 13, 2014, 10:13:42 am
I can't believe people are raging over the fact that tinkering with your models and textures client side should be restricted or overseen.
Some people really find something rageworthy in every little thing...

Keep in mind this post has ONLY upvotes.

(Its late and i didnt read the whole thread so im sorry if this was talked about already, I saw title and remembered this post.)
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Grumbs on September 13, 2014, 10:27:15 am
Well first of all in response to Digglez and Hirlok;

A whitelist/blacklist for textures that is applied at startup wouldn't be enough, because people could easily circumvent that. Textures/meshes can be replaced once the game has already started and when you enter multiplayer/a server your textures/meshes load. There would have to be a check every time a player tries to enter a server.

That is to say even if we had a startup check for a whitelist of client-side files, people could still just replace textures once their game is started. You could literally just keep a folder with all your normal textures and a folder with all your neon pink textures, and just swap it out once your past the check and your multiplayer match will load the neon pink textures. It would take a cheater like two extra button clicks and 8 seconds.

The other problem is that you are crimping the creative freedom of cRPG players who want to design items for themselves or the public, or just mod the game to have fun.

People would know that they are clearly cheating though if they went to that trouble each time they loaded up the game. ATM its a grey area. People who edit out bushes have the impression that its not against the rules. The devs even said themselves that they don't think its an issue, so why should the players? We had lots of threads..one of them got locked with a flippant 1 liner from cmp suggesting its not a problem

Keep in mind this post has ONLY upvotes.

(Its late and i didnt read the whole thread so im sorry if this was talked about already, I saw title and remembered this post.)

Read the post and the devs posts above. He's saying hes surprised anyone would complain about not being able to use some unauthorised mods. I forgot they changed their attitude a bit. They didn't implement anything though
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Teeth on September 13, 2014, 10:41:09 am
Well, even without considering modified textures, hiding behind bushes isn't something you should count on anyway. There is a huge variety of graphic settings and various legit ingame settings that make people harder or easier to spot.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on September 13, 2014, 10:45:55 am
i would gladly accept instructions how to remove bushes, i dont see why some people would have that advantage over the others.

because they are cheaters and their score is invalid for the hall of fame i wish
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Johammeth on September 13, 2014, 11:03:00 am
This reminds me of when people started using bright pink "AIM HERE FOR HEADSHOTS" replacement models in halflife deathmatch / AG.

They were pretty much laughed out of the community.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: _Tak_ on September 13, 2014, 11:11:33 am
Its extremely hard to implement a feature which checks what the user edits. Because bushes, trees, walls are client side not server side so its impossible to tell whether or not a user uses it. Even if you make screenshots its still hard to tell if he/she is exploiting or not. So far currently none of the warband mods can detect a user from editing stuff so raging it here will be pretty pointless. The only game mode that can gained an advantage over this is probably battle, in siege hiding in bushes doesn't help you much at all.

In native and mods in warband option there is a thing calle Grass Density, set that to 0 and it will completely remove all grass on the map. If the devs is going to implement a system to detect self-edits like this. i can't imagine the amount of time is needed to implement this to work, but it is better to work on something else like new code/ new system instead of wasting time on this.

if you want less people to use it stop bringing it up to the public or else more people will use it eventually.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Qoray on September 13, 2014, 11:55:53 am
yes
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: karasu on September 13, 2014, 12:47:30 pm
I'd ban ppl i see doing that.

Too bad you weren't an admin on the GK golden era.  :lol:
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Macropus on September 13, 2014, 12:58:17 pm
Molly, all you have to do to make this thread interesting is to say the name.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Prinz_Karl on September 13, 2014, 02:05:42 pm
Well, it's pretty lame from those players to exploit that stuff, ...but I can't blame them that much, because last time there was a thread about transparent textures, there were all comments like "omg, having this kind of game setup is penalty enough" and devs seemed to view it very loosely.

We need an official statement that makes it against the rules to edit textures in order to give unfair advantage. It's simply an exploit and every admin spotting that should ban them.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Penitent on September 13, 2014, 02:42:16 pm
Quote
I'd ban ppl i see doing that.



This seems to say that it is, indeed, against the rules.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Penitent on September 13, 2014, 02:44:33 pm
Quote
I'd ban ppl i see doing that.

It's more a kind of "exploiting" imo.

Quote
General rules
•No exploiting of any kind

This seems to say that it is, indeed, against the rules.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Peasant_Woman on September 13, 2014, 02:46:21 pm
From a map making perspective, bushes and vegetation in general are used to lower visibility in very open areas which helps to counter ranged domination by breaking up line of sight and providing some light cover.

Anyone caught doing this should be banned. It's exploiting the moddability of this game to circumvent map features thereby imparting an unfair advantage, but I would also urge admins to err on the side of caution as it's difficult to tell who has vegetation with lowered alpha channels and who has really good eyes.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: jtobiasm on September 13, 2014, 05:13:43 pm
Someone PM on how to get rid of the bushes and fog. It's not that i want to use it to my advantage i just want more fps than 30.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Jack1 on September 13, 2014, 06:12:38 pm
Someone PM on how to get rid of the bushes and fog. It's not that i want to use it to my advantage i just want more fps than 30.

Just use dx7. If you allready are then try scary mod.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Gmnotutoo on September 13, 2014, 06:58:31 pm
cRPG now:
- no fog
- no flora
- transparent walls
- neon weapons

So many abusing without any penalty.

We need file check - if there is file changes - not able to join server.

You forgot Macro feinting which is a large problem.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Kafein on September 13, 2014, 07:04:57 pm
You forgot Macro feinting which is a large problem.

lel
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: ROHYPNOL on September 13, 2014, 07:18:34 pm
Someone PM on how to get rid of the bushes and fog. It's not that i want to use it to my advantage i just want more fps than 30.

Someone please PM me on how to do this also... I only get 150fps and would love to use this to my advantage.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: jtobiasm on September 13, 2014, 07:21:43 pm
Just use dx7. If you allready are then try scary mod.

Thing is, i use dx7 and use all low settings, still get lower than 30 fps on most maps
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 13, 2014, 07:44:49 pm
Thing is, i use dx7 and use all low settings, still get lower than 30 fps on most maps

What is this, 1997?  Stop being so poor.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Jack1 on September 13, 2014, 08:24:28 pm
Thing is, i use dx7 and use all low settings, still get lower than 30 fps on most maps

Then use scary mod. Graphics become even more shit but it makes the game more playable.

http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/scary-mod-(for-native-1-158-crpg-0-304)-crpg-optimization-updated-19-10-2013/
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: jtobiasm on September 13, 2014, 08:25:57 pm
What is this, 1997?  Stop being so poor.

I'm saving bro, but the temptation to go out every weekend is far too strong

Then use scary mod. Graphics become even more shit but it makes the game more playable.

http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/scary-mod-(for-native-1-158-crpg-0-304)-crpg-optimization-updated-19-10-2013/
Will check it out tomorrow thanks!
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 08:44:56 pm
What the hell are people playing on that causes them to get 30fps in a game where you should be breaking at least 300fps on any hardware made in the past ten years
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Viriathus on September 13, 2014, 09:25:40 pm
As a map maker, I say yes. To me a scene is a piece of art, a 3D paintig if you will. I dont take hours placing some bushes not to be seen.

I feel outrageously insulted! sacre bleu!
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: _Tak_ on September 13, 2014, 09:39:10 pm
If you want it to be balance for everyone and that no one can cheats with bushes. Tell cRPG map manager to remove all bushes and grasses. should make it fairer than what we have now. though it will be alot of work
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: kwhy on September 13, 2014, 09:42:41 pm
What the hell are people playing on that causes them to get 30fps in a game where you should be breaking at least 300fps on any hardware made in the past ten years

just added a 640x480 monitor yo and I'm on dialup 28.8 modem. 

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: lombardsoup on September 13, 2014, 09:51:13 pm
just added a 640x480 monitor yo and I'm on dialup 28.8 modem. 

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


You high tech now dawg

Dat Stone Cold in the upper left
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: //saxon on September 13, 2014, 09:51:34 pm
have you ever considered the fact that he/she is using the option to show enemy banner icons?
simple fix for hiding in bushes, i know, its shit..
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Keshian on September 13, 2014, 10:55:28 pm
Post the player's name so we can publicly shame them. Shoot first, ask questions later.


His name is DRZ_

every ranged player whose name starts with that.

Also, found out from one of the admins that "aim hacks" are allowed and not bannable and rather common.  Makes me kind of sad, lost a lot of respect for certain ranged players that i know are mod-crazy and will use any advantage or that were terrible for months and then overnight became good..  Old school no cheating only way to real skill, much better than cheap e-peenery through cheating.

Macros also are rather common, at least in NA, for feint-swings.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Dooz on September 13, 2014, 11:09:24 pm
If you want it to be balance for everyone and that no one can cheats with bushes. Tell cRPG map manager to remove all bushes and grasses. should make it fairer than what we have now. though it will be alot of work

No please. That would severely hinder my immersion cheats, playing on max graphics settings, plus realistic texture mods for environments including plants. Just stop caring about your kd and let the tryhards try hard.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Macropus on September 14, 2014, 02:51:28 am
You forgot Macro feinting which is a large problem.
Why did you use the capital M
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Johammeth on September 14, 2014, 03:13:55 am
Why did you use the capital M

He's on to your Marsupial ways.

He knows.




He knows.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: jtobiasm on September 14, 2014, 10:54:19 am

His name is DRZ_

every ranged player whose name starts with that.

Also, found out from one of the admins that "aim hacks" are allowed and not bannable and rather common.  Makes me kind of sad, lost a lot of respect for certain ranged players that i know are mod-crazy and will use any advantage or that were terrible for months and then overnight became good..  Old school no cheating only way to real skill, much better than cheap e-peenery through cheating.

Macros also are rather common, at least in NA, for feint-swings.

No need to be mad cos NA ranged are shit
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Spleen on September 14, 2014, 03:02:28 pm
but introducing "show banners above enemy" in wse2 didnt break immersion?
I never had to use my own glorious dry leaves deluxe mod (http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/to-crush-your-enemies-see-them-driven-before-you/) on public servers cause with enemy banners, there's no need for that.
Its just: see banner, aim a bit below into the fauna. maybe bump before that just for the heck of it - cause its most likely some random xbow guy anyway
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Algarn on September 14, 2014, 04:54:23 pm
I got a name : Druzhina seka. I'm almost sure he has been removing textures. I was into a place with bushes+trees (=very dense flora, green leaves everywhere), still, he killed me, without missing once (fired one arrow from 40/50 metters, did kill me). Either it was huge luck, or it was this bullshit of textures removal. Believe me or not, I'm sure at 75% it was textures removal.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Keshian on September 14, 2014, 05:37:50 pm
I got a name : Druzhina seka. I'm almost sure he has been removing textures. I was into a place with bushes+trees (=very dense flora, green leaves everywhere), still, he killed me, without missing once (fired one arrow from 40/50 metters, did kill me). Either it was huge luck, or it was this bullshit of textures removal. Believe me or not, I'm sure at 75% it was textures removal.

DRZ passed around that mod to remove textures among their players since strat 1.  Most of their ranged use it.  Its what they do - cheat as far as they can get away with it.  Thats always been the biggest issue with them and UIF, not even the giant alliance, but that all the cheaters allied together and help each other cheat.  No ethics whatsoever.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Kato on September 14, 2014, 05:50:59 pm
but introducing "show banners above enemy" in wse2 didnt break immersion?
I never had to use my own glorious dry leaves deluxe mod (http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/to-crush-your-enemies-see-them-driven-before-you/) on public servers cause with enemy banners, there's no need for that.
Its just: see banner, aim a bit below into the fauna. maybe bump before that just for the heck of it - cause its most likely some random xbow guy anyway

Can some dev come here and tell us what is intention for this retarded feature.

This feature actually makes me worried about Melee:BG as I really dont want to see the game turn out to be some highlighted shit like War of Vikings.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: NejStark on September 14, 2014, 05:57:12 pm
This was a problem with the original DayZ mod I think, and people got banned from servers who used it iirc.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 14, 2014, 05:59:43 pm
You should just make it mandatory for all players to stream their gameplay, that way admins can see what they see any any given point.  This is the only reasonable and fair way to do it.  Also, there should be a second mandatory screen for the mouse hand to make sure no one's macroing.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Swaggart on September 14, 2014, 11:56:07 pm
And another camera watching the other hand to make sure no one is jerking it while playing.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 15, 2014, 12:40:42 am
DRZ passed around that mod to remove textures among their players since strat 1.  Most of their ranged use it.  Its what they do - cheat as far as they can get away with it.  Thats always been the biggest issue with them and UIF, not even the giant alliance, but that all the cheaters allied together and help each other cheat.  No ethics whatsoever.

dat eastern europoor mentality for ya.

Modding your files so that bushes are flat against the ground, or making walls translucent is cheating.  there's really no debate to be had.  Some people will do anything they can get away with in order to gain an advantage.  Others of us are highly competitive and would feel like dirty pieces of shit for cheating in order to gain an advantage.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Macropus on September 15, 2014, 03:03:40 am
DRZ passed around that mod to remove textures among their players since strat 1.  Most of their ranged use it.  Its what they do - cheat as far as they can get away with it.  Thats always been the biggest issue with them and UIF, not even the giant alliance, but that all the cheaters allied together and help each other cheat.  No ethics whatsoever.
These bastards, they didn't share that mod with me back when I was ranged and in the clan...  :evil:
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: McKli_PL on September 15, 2014, 04:53:24 am
No need to be mad cos NA ranged are shit
only ranged?  :twisted:
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Jack1 on September 15, 2014, 05:19:33 am
only ranged?  :twisted:

I remember one particular UIF vs coalition seige last strat at uhhun castle were I was best on UIF in both kills and score(a crossbow man beat me in KDR) while I was a cav build attacking while leman rus was on the top of the defending side. Also plenty of other battles I topped in in EU.

CHN>NA>EU
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on September 15, 2014, 05:26:37 am
I'd say it's about as much of a cheat as show banners above enemy, or the heirloom pack, so it's in the sort-of-but-not-really gray area.

It might even be less helpful for long distance aiming vs show banners, plus show banners helps you target certain players.

Making walls transparent and removing fog is just super blatant cheating though.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 15, 2014, 06:06:54 am
How can I cheat me some day-time only???
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 15, 2014, 06:36:55 am
Toggling on show banners on everything pretty much removes any and all semblance of stealth in this game anyways, unless you have a four-legged butt-rocket between your legs or are playing in a heavy urban map.


I turned that feature on though just to see clan mobs easier.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: _Tak_ on September 15, 2014, 11:40:57 am
I'd say it's about as much of a cheat as show banners above enemy, or the heirloom pack, so it's in the sort-of-but-not-really gray area.

It might even be less helpful for long distance aiming vs show banners, plus show banners helps you target certain players.

Making walls transparent and removing fog is just super blatant cheating though.

I don't think its possible to remove fog without the source code of cRPG though
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: matt2507 on September 15, 2014, 03:32:33 pm
I don't think its possible to remove fog without the source code of cRPG though

I confirm (already tried  :oops: ).
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Rico on September 16, 2014, 12:18:28 pm
Quote
Also, found out from one of the admins that "aim hacks" are allowed and not bannable and rather common.

No way man, this can't be allowed! BAN HE
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: woody on September 16, 2014, 01:03:20 pm
Someone compared this to the heirloom pack, simply cant agree. Superbly crafted weapons would likely be decorated differently and an experienced warlord would have engravings etc on his gear. Heirloom pack is entirely consistent with game, altering landscapes to your advantage is not.

Only reason I dont use heirloom pack is I cant be arsed to keep reinstalling it.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Dooz on September 16, 2014, 01:09:43 pm
Only reason I dont use heirloom pack is I cant be arsed to keep reinstalling it.

If you can click a button to launch/update crpg every time you play, you can click a button to launch the heirloom installer every 20-100th time. Or not, your loss eh?
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: FleetFox on September 16, 2014, 01:12:36 pm
Apologies I have not bothered to read the 6 pages of this thread. That's because its a very simple answer, ofc its bloody cheating. You don't need to be a genius to come up with that, and I don't think this thread needs 6 pages of discussion to come to such an easy conclusion. Shoot me down if you must, but there is a reason those demon bushes are in the game.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: BlindGuy on September 16, 2014, 01:33:56 pm
Editing your files to gain any advantage is cheating. Using any aftermarket software to gain an adavantage is cheating. These are not debateable.

Personally I see no line between exploiting and cheating, also. To exploit a bug is cheating.

But then I feel the game could be very different. For example holding your S key down should carry with it a 50% chance to knock you down once you reach a full second of S keying. Dont want to fall down? Dont fucking run backwards.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Grumbs on September 16, 2014, 01:49:08 pm
They just need to update this:

No exploiting of any kind
NOT OK: Bypassing the autobalance
NOT OK: Using a bug to gain undeserved benefits
NOT OK: Leaving and rejoining to server to spawn more than once in a round

Add:

NOT OK: Altering game files for personal advantage

They need to draw a clear line between altering files for personal aesthetics and altering files for personal advantage. OK: Different looking Flamberge. NOT OK: Levelling out terrain elements such as foliage. Personally I would also add that game assets should still resemble what they represent, IE no orange weapons etc

The first thing is to be clear with the rules, the next is to think about how to enforce it. Maybe they can't enforce it, but encouraging a shitty gaming culture doesn't help.

Personally I see no line between exploiting and cheating, also. To exploit a bug is cheating.

Who decides what a bug is though? Stabbing through team mates/walls is cheating?.

This falls under clever/skillful use of game mechanics. If your character can physically do it then its either fair or in the grey area
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: matt2507 on September 16, 2014, 02:13:57 pm
They just need to update this:

No exploiting of any kind
NOT OK: Bypassing the autobalance
NOT OK: Using a bug to gain undeserved benefits
NOT OK: Leaving and rejoining to server to spawn more than once in a round

Add:

NOT OK: Altering game files for personal advantage

They need to draw a clear line between altering files for personal aesthetics and altering files for personal advantage. OK: Different looking Flamberge. NOT OK: Levelling out terrain elements such as foliage. Personally I would also add that game assets should still resemble what they represent, IE no orange weapons etc

The first thing is to be clear with the rules, the next is to think about how to enforce it. Maybe they can't enforce it, but encouraging a shitty gaming culture doesn't help.

Who decides what a bug is though? Stabbing through team mates/walls is cheating?.

This falls under clever/skillful use of game mechanics. If your character can physically do it then its either fair or in the grey area

I totaly agreed with that.

I make somes tests because i have many suspicions for other "exploits".
Removing bush is the most easy to do. No need to remove the textures, notepad is enough fo that.

Also, there is another exploit that can be donne in 5 minutes and this one is more powerfull imo:
(click to show/hide)

I'm sure somes peoples use it (or have used it before).
It can be improved by making them green or red and other stuff like that but i don't want to wast my time for this, you already see how it is powerfull.

This kind of modifications realy need a rule because there is not limits for this kind of shit for now !


ps: I don't use this shit and i never gonna use it, i'm cav and have no need for this !
I have just make this for testing and used it in spec mode only.

ps2: If devs want to know how to do (but i'm sure they know how), they can ask me by mp (only).

ps3: If you are not a dev and want to ask, go f**k yourself  :wink:
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Dooz on September 16, 2014, 02:26:42 pm
Is the definition of cheating in crpg the same as the definition of cheating in the dictionary? If not, what is cheating as defined for crpg?
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: _Tak_ on September 16, 2014, 02:28:17 pm

(click to show/hide)


lol Raylin what the heck is that, how is that going to help someone in battle?   :shock:
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: matt2507 on September 16, 2014, 02:53:55 pm
lol Raylin what the heck is that, how is that going to help someone in battle?   :shock:

Ask an archer  :wink:
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Dooz on September 16, 2014, 03:07:43 pm
Hey guys, is this cheating?

http://forum.melee.org/beginner's-help-and-guides/(guide)-how-to-get-the-native-projectile-models-back/ (http://forum.melee.org/beginner's-help-and-guides/(guide)-how-to-get-the-native-projectile-models-back/)
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Grumbs on September 16, 2014, 04:20:41 pm
lol Raylin what the heck is that, how is that going to help someone in battle?   :shock:

How will a wallhack help someone? Does it need asking?
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: _Tak_ on September 16, 2014, 04:27:20 pm
How will a wallhack help someone? Does it need asking?

Interesting, never thought about that
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: cup457 on September 16, 2014, 04:44:47 pm
ITT slavshits have no morals(susprise susprise) and shitlord crpg players with no friends irl to judge them do whatever they want because all they have is the kdr and the multi
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: McKli_PL on September 16, 2014, 05:51:02 pm
Got question for some moders/devs its possible(legal?) to remove night effect on some siege maps, because some weapons like steelpick/dadao/miadao are same color as floor (dark grey) and its hard to see them fighting in dark?
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Krex on September 16, 2014, 06:09:23 pm
Got question for some moders/devs its possible(legal?) to remove night effect on some siege maps, because some weapons like steelpick/dadao/miadao are same color as floor (dark grey) and its hard to see them fighting in dark?
Possible=yes,but I think you would have to do it for all maps,dont thinks its possible to just do it for some.
legal=hell no.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Jacko on September 17, 2014, 01:18:17 pm
Both buildings and bushes serves a gameplay purpose, one forcing movement and the other lowering visibility (and to some extent movement as well). Same goes for neon weapons. Shouldn't there be skill involved in spotting your opponents gear or remembering where you missed that arrow? We praise blocking, but there are many more ways to be skillful in a game.

Games strive to be equal, in the sense that everyone has the same starting conditions. Regardless of skill I can always assume that my opponent sees what I sees and have to obey to the same rules as I do. When you start altering this to your own benefit, being able to ignore various visibility issues (which are core elements in any competitive game), you're cheating, for the simply reason that not everyone has the ability do the same (within the frame of the game).

Now, that being said, the game allows you to alter it without any real consequences, and currently there is no way for us to enforce rules about this. You can't ban people on speculations and hearsay. 

In short, it's cheating but we can't do anything about it.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Leesin on September 17, 2014, 02:00:13 pm
Well I've said it before and I'll say it again, neon weapons etc don't bother me that much, but anyone removing foliage bushes etc is a shitcunt. As already said they serve a gameplay purpose and anyone that has removed them has an advantage over people that have not removed them. Either everyone playing CRPG should have foliage or everyone should not, half and half doesn't make a fair playing field.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: BlindGuy on September 17, 2014, 02:38:08 pm
Both buildings and bushes serves a gameplay purpose, one forcing movement and the other lowering visibility (and to some extent movement as well). Same goes for neon weapons. Shouldn't there be skill involved in spotting your opponents gear or remembering where you missed that arrow? We praise blocking, but there are many more ways to be skillful in a game.

Games strive to be equal, in the sense that everyone has the same starting conditions. Regardless of skill I can always assume that my opponent sees what I sees and have to obey to the same rules as I do. When you start altering this to your own benefit, being able to ignore various visibility issues (which are core elements in any competitive game), you're cheating, for the simply reason that not everyone has the ability do the same (within the frame of the game).

Now, that being said, the game allows you to alter it without any real consequences, and currently there is no way for us to enforce rules about this. You can't ban people on speculations and hearsay. 

In short, it's cheating but we can't do anything about it.

Is there no way to enforce it at all Jacko? I know Mount and Blade has always been an engine in which you mod what you want, and thats part of what made it great, but is there no way to compile all files needed for crpg into a single directory then have an app run with the launcher that checks that directory for any edits and excludes the user untill they revert to the original compilation? I havent coded since the 80's, literally, and I know chadz and co. are busy-busy atm, but surely it cannot be beyond the abilities of all of you together to write such a check?

And while this would surely alienate a large portion of our slavic playerbase, it would be for the greater good
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Molly on September 17, 2014, 04:07:44 pm
What about something like a checksum file (crc or something) compiled by the launcher for certain directories. While not being 100% reliable, it could make the effort for customs files high enough to scare off a few cheaters at least... or make those banable who don't know about it.

But I simply dunno enough about Warband, its engine and functionality to actually suggest anything.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Grumbs on September 17, 2014, 06:35:04 pm
Now, that being said, the game allows you to alter it without any real consequences, and currently there is no way for us to enforce rules about this. You can't ban people on speculations and hearsay. 

In short, it's cheating but we can't do anything about it.

Declaring it as cheating is a start. You can't always enforce rules but that doesn't mean the rule shouldn't be stated in the first place. People that currently cheat don't even think they are cheating until you set the rules out

You don't have to be able to enforce it. Only a certain sub player actually wants to cheat in games, but I bet we have a lot of people using dodgy stuff just because the devs don't actually say what is and what isn't cheating. In fact I'd suggest previous attitudes from devs actually will have made the matter worse
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 17, 2014, 07:01:40 pm
The only real conversation left to have in this thread is:  punk buster or battle eye?
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: jtobiasm on September 17, 2014, 07:17:46 pm
The only real conversation left to have in this thread is:  punk buster or battle eye?

I choose VAC
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: matt2507 on September 17, 2014, 11:17:10 pm
The only real conversation left to have in this thread is:  punk buster or battle eye?

Talk about real anticheat please !
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: lombardsoup on September 17, 2014, 11:22:29 pm
Talk about real anticheat please !

There is no such thing as real anti cheat.  Any such measures will be circumvented eventually
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: _Tak_ on September 17, 2014, 11:52:17 pm
The only real conversation left to have in this thread is:  punk buster or battle eye?

Those programs won't help cRPG in any way since bushes etc are client side it will be impossible to detect cheat from a user. Unless cRPG is officially a game not a mod then it might be possible. i've spoke to cmp a long time ago about this issue on IRC he said he won't ban people for it.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Dionysus on September 18, 2014, 12:10:29 am
A lot of these issues have set a really bad precedent for M: BG. I think any developer from the Donkey Crew who cares about the integrity of their game new or old should take a more official stance than the hearsay of IRC (no offense to you, Tak).
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 18, 2014, 02:49:20 am
I don't think its really that hard to stop it, if you're designing a game from the top down.  I'm pretty sure you stick all of those files into one file, and then run a check CRC or whatever the fuck that guy said before.  Maybe even encrypt it???  I think that's a word.

Mount and Blade has those files accessible by nature, and intended to be modded.  So it's that easy.  Plus it's made by Hungarians or whatever the fuck, and its 10 years old.  If you remember, it was pretty easy to mod CS 1.6 and have pure red textures and green textures for T/CT.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: matt2507 on September 18, 2014, 03:24:04 am
There is no such thing as real anti cheat.  Any such measures will be circumvented eventually

I think you have not understand what i mean, i just say that battleye is the most shitty anticheat of the universe, that's all.

I don't think its really that hard to stop it, if you're designing a game from the top down.  I'm pretty sure you stick all of those files into one file, and then run a check CRC or whatever the fuck that guy said before.  Maybe even encrypt it???  I think that's a word.

Mount and Blade has those files accessible by nature, and intended to be modded.  So it's that easy.  Plus it's made by Hungarians or whatever the fuck, and its 10 years old.  If you remember, it was pretty easy to mod CS 1.6 and have pure red textures and green textures for T/CT.

that don't work like that.
You can keep the original file clean and tell to the game to use another one you have modified.


A good solution could be to make the launcher redownload one file (i don't write his name here) for each game launching.
But that didn't prevent the texture modifications, only the script.

It would be a sad thing for a "too lazy" bush remover, and a good one for us.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Dooz on September 18, 2014, 04:13:54 am
GO TO HELL TOO LAZY BUSH REMOVERS
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Rhekimos on September 18, 2014, 09:49:06 am
I'd say that it's a cheat. A small one. Unless you really abuse it and lure people into dueling you in bushes where you can see perfectly well and the enemy can't see your swings.

On the other hand if you are just hiding in bushes, turning on the in-game option to show enemy banners reveals you behind bushes, behind low walls, behind rocks, hiding in hay, waiting on top of the ladders and in fog.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Prpavi on September 18, 2014, 10:55:38 am
Well personally I like some bush it ads character to that certain area but I don't mind if it's removed either though
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Macropus on September 18, 2014, 11:05:09 am
I love the square town map with a small water in the center, where one of the spawns has a stack of hay. So you can run up there and swing at it with a high chance of hitting some noob and getting accused of cheating.  :)
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Apsod on September 18, 2014, 01:46:01 pm
Those programs won't help cRPG in any way since bushes etc are client side it will be impossible to detect cheat from a user. Unless cRPG is officially a game not a mod then it might be possible. i've spoke to cmp a long time ago about this issue on IRC he said he won't ban people for it.
PunkBuster could be used to detect graphical cheats, by comparing a screenshot of what the players sees with what the server see.

Quote
PunkBuster Admins can request actual screenshot samples from specific players and/or can configure the PB Server to randomly grab screenshot samples from players during gameplay. However, it is possible for a game hack to block screenshots (producing a cropped screenshot) or remove all visual features of a hack (cleaning the screenshot) to remain undetected, leaving the effectiveness of this feature diminished.
As the quote states, it is possible to workaround this, but it would make graphical cheats much harder make. I don't know if it is possible to get PunkBuster to work with cRPG or not though.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: matt2507 on September 18, 2014, 03:18:51 pm
I don't know if it is possible to get PunkBuster to work with cRPG or not though.

I'm sure that is not possible.
Also, the game is already "VAC secured" but he was too moddable for that stuf.

Anticheat are not a good solution here. Custom scripts would work better imo.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Lord Voren on September 19, 2014, 12:43:06 am
Im against any and all client side tampering. Changing missiles size shape and color, removing particles (rain snow ect), Macros (Mouse macros for perfect combat moves). If you ask me all of it should be cheating, it gives certain players an unfair advantage and goes against the spirit of the game. In my opinion.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on September 19, 2014, 04:53:33 am
I have random neon pink, yellow, green, blue, and red lines running through like 1/3 of the weapons in my cRPG right now because I am marking them for editing so I can tell what in game relates to what in the texture files. Ban me.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Kafein on September 19, 2014, 11:57:11 am
GO TO HELL TOO LAZY BUSH REMOVERS

You know there's plenty of Asian material for that.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Pawiu on September 19, 2014, 01:51:24 pm
bah 80 % of "archers" and "cav" would get banned...
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Nehvar on September 19, 2014, 04:15:00 pm
And nothing of value would be lost.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Spleen on September 20, 2014, 01:11:30 pm
And nothing of value would be lost.

uhm, threads like these?
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: StonedSteel on September 21, 2014, 05:36:41 pm
...i really dont think they care ( donkey crew  ) Tydeus put up a vid of him killing and being killed( you know the one, set to bangerang ), you can see from the video he uses the same things, ( colored weapons, brush removal, add that to show names cheat and he can see through anything? )

The guy they have as "balencer", does all this shit and worse...i dont think its going to change, i really dont think donkey crew cares, i really REALLY dont think they understand the impact this will have on their new game. after the way crpg has gone i wont be buying M:bg thats for sure.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: imisshotmail on September 22, 2014, 02:54:56 am
...i really dont think they care ( donkey crew  ) Tydeus put up a vid of him killing and being killed( you know the one, set to bangerang ), you can see from the video he uses the same things, ( colored weapons, brush removal, add that to show names cheat and he can see through anything? )

The guy they have as "balencer", does all this shit and worse...i dont think its going to change, i really dont think donkey crew cares, i really REALLY dont think they understand the impact this will have on their new game. after the way crpg has gone i wont be buying M:bg thats for sure.

It's disgusting how Tydeus gets away with it because he is part of the so called "dev team".

Makes me sick.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Vengt037 on September 22, 2014, 07:09:48 am
Well personally I like some bush it ads character to that certain area but I don't mind if it's removed either though

Says the guy whose profile picture says "I am a pervert," in Japanese.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: lombardsoup on September 22, 2014, 07:11:45 am
There's ticks in that bush, watch yourself
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Jacko on September 22, 2014, 10:02:47 am
If you worried about cRPG's lack of anti cheat measures you should contact Taleworlds. We [both cRPG and MBG devs] are fully aware of what's cRPG and what's MBG, and the limitations with the former. Anti cheating measures are important, but the structure to make them has to be there from the start, and that's something that Warband has always been missing.

Are we responsible for fixing anti cheating measures for Warband? Of course not. We are developing a mod not a commercial product.

Are we responsible for fixing anti cheating measures for M:BG? Of course we are. It's a commercial product with multiplayer focus.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Grumbs on September 22, 2014, 10:35:09 am
You are responsible for fostering and encouraging an anti cheating culture. ATM people are free to cheat as much as they like because you have no policy at all on what you are and are not allowed to mod. People are right to assume a dev team with that kind of attitude will continue with it with their next game
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Dooz on September 22, 2014, 10:46:37 am
That was addressed in the post above yours, re: mod vs. engine.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Grumbs on September 22, 2014, 11:23:52 am
No its not. Hes saying they can't actually stop people cheating. I'm saying you can combat cheating just through your attitude towards mod tweaking..until they actually say its against the rules to tweak in certain ways then they will continue to encourage a negative gaming culture. They say you can mod what you like, so you get people using coloured weapons, flattening out bushes, making walls translucent. People aren't having to make a conscious decision to be a cheater, because they technically aren't with the attitude the devs have to modding in the game
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Prpavi on September 22, 2014, 01:37:49 pm
Well isn't this the case with every and I mean literally every online game? Especially the competitive ones. Tryhards will do anthing to get the edge, it will always happen either you want it or not, now it's your choice to be among that crowd and use the tweaks or be one of the immersion guys. I personally never used any of that crap in any game just because I like the experience, not my score, ofc it always is nice to top the scoreboard and help your team win but was never the reason I played the games, I do play to win but not to be 1st on the scoreboard with 20 stolen kills, I'd rather finish last and die every round but have my team win because of it. As for the scrubs having no bushes (they probably don't get around bushes irl so they are not used to it  :mrgreen:) and starwars weapons fuck them, if they want to have a shit looking game just for the score let them, I find it kinda sad, plus it makes killing them especially sweet.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on September 22, 2014, 02:04:46 pm
No its not. Hes saying they can't actually stop people cheating. I'm saying you can combat cheating just through your attitude towards mod tweaking..until they actually say its against the rules to tweak in certain ways then they will continue to encourage a negative gaming culture. They say you can mod what you like, so you get people using coloured weapons, flattening out bushes, making walls translucent. People aren't having to make a conscious decision to be a cheater, because they technically aren't with the attitude the devs have to modding in the game

Problem is, what use is it to say it is against the rule if you cannot detect people doing it it? It would only lead to Thomeks banning people on presumption.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Prpavi on September 22, 2014, 02:19:07 pm
Problem is, what use is it to say it is against the rule if you cannot detect people doing it it? It would only lead to Thomeks banning people on presumption.

Which he would never do otherwise

Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Grumbs on September 22, 2014, 02:20:41 pm
Problem is, what use is it to say it is against the rule if you cannot detect people doing it it? It would only lead to Thomeks banning people on presumption.

People can flaunt their dodgy mods now and nothing will be done about it. If we had a decent attitude towards dodgy mods that comes from those with authority we would be in a better position to discourage people from using them. Anti cheat measures can always be circumvented. The trick is to make people not want to cheat in the first place, and that comes from the culture of the server, clear rules and good attitudes from devs on the subject.

There have been too many threads that don't give a clear message about what you can and can't do. We had a thread on levelling out all the tall folliage that blocks vision for everyone except the modder. We have loads of threads on coloured models with no good message from the devs. We have videos of people using the mods with highlighted coloured obstructions. Images of see through terrain elements. I don't blame people for using the mods when we have an attitude were you can basically mod what you feel like. When the dialogue first started we had lots of discussions on the topic. The devs didn't give good input and even locked threads with flippant remarks that suggest its not an issue

If its not cheating to mod files then why not? I believe in level playing fields in games, and if people are using certain mods then everyone should too. Why should one have vision in a certain area and someone else not? If its not cheating or against the rules then people should do whatever modding they want
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Prpavi on September 22, 2014, 04:01:29 pm
I believe in level playing fields in games

You should stick to singleplayer games then.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: NejStark on September 22, 2014, 06:21:48 pm
Its cheating.

THE END.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: lombardsoup on September 22, 2014, 06:47:38 pm
No its landscaping
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: AwesomeHail on September 22, 2014, 06:57:14 pm
NARMY still accepting applications.

(click to show/hide)

are your graphics so high or is it some realism mod-thingy?
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on September 22, 2014, 09:06:52 pm
are your graphics so high or is it some realism mod-thingy?
(click to show/hide)

It looks like vanilla warband graphics on the highest settings
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Dooz on September 22, 2014, 11:13:17 pm
you can combat cheating just through your attitude

Hey we all love The Secret, but video games are the real world, where shitty kids do what they can get away with for higher numbers. And what they can or can not get away with is determined by the cold hard physics of a game engine, not the warm soft feelings of a dev team. At best, maybe you have less threads with people "flaunting" shitty cheatmods, and they continue to use them anyway. So what.

Let it be, do your thing, stop caring about your kd and their kd. Devs said new game, new rules. Take em at their word until proven otherwise. Or don't. Dun matter.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Grumbs on September 24, 2014, 02:01:19 am
NM
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Dooz on September 24, 2014, 08:44:19 am
I don't want to use those mods, they make the game look bad and not fun for me. Luckily, I don't play the game to "compete" and be the best, just for fun when I feel like taking part in some medieval combat. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. And for people who play the game to see higher numbers than others' on their screens, and the atmosphere and visuals mean nothing to them, sure they might as well be playing with a calculator, but I don't care if what's fun for them isn't the same as what's fun for me. All it means is that their lives are most likely pretty sad and they need points to validate themselves, to themselves, and presumably in their heads to others.

If your goal is to "stay competitive" and have every advantage every other player has, first of all that's never gonna happen because you're never gonna have exactly the same reflexes, time spent, natural ability in certain areas that matter to this particular game, and many other variables that make people different from one another. But if we're only talking about advantages within the structure of the game, and all that matters is a higher score, then do what you gotta do. Because you can. Because the engine allows it and there is no way around it and no amount of rule positing and finger wagging by the devs or anyone else is gonna make a difference for people like that. If they can get away with it, they will. And until they can't, because the game won't allow them to, not the people around them, they will continue. And according to some comments by people working on MBG, it is something that is being taken into account. Whereas Warband as a game is all about its modability, which is why crpg exists in the first place, and is what makes it difficult or as I understand it, impossible, to detect and disallow these kinds of mods.

This isn't a professional league. No one's getting paid for their time or efforts. It matters less than anything else should in any of your lives whether or not you get top score or bottom or anywhere in between. All that matters is that you have fun while escaping from whatever reality it is you're trying to avoid. If fun for you is fucked up neon weapons and no landscape and just the knowledge that you're the best at pwning noobs, fantastic. If it's walking around pretending you're a farmer with a scythe in a wheat field while battle ensues all around you and you die every round without inflicting a single scratch on an enemy, great. If you feel the need to measure your digidick with every internet child around you, use whatever mods or cheats or whatever else is available to you that you think is gonna help you feel good about yourself. Also, you might be an e-pedo.

Btw, I recommend this mod I made (http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/my-crpg-mod/) for anyone who wants zero distractions on the battlefield and just wants to fuck shit up. High score 4ever.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on September 24, 2014, 10:46:06 am
Which he would never do otherwise

Badly expressed. I meant the whole thing would produce more Thomeks...
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: jtobiasm on September 25, 2014, 12:47:03 pm
What kind of lows would remove bushes and fog? I mean at least download an aimbot and just toggle it on/off when a lot of people die on your team.
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Bronto on September 25, 2014, 02:27:59 pm
Removing anything graphically from this game is cheating and you're a shit bag for doing it.

//thread
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Keshian on October 04, 2014, 10:38:53 am
Bump for abuse
Title: Re: Is removing bushes ingame something we should consider cheating?
Post by: Goretooth on October 04, 2014, 11:29:54 am
i use to dual box and that allow incoming trade button was put in because of me.