cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 21, 2013, 11:36:11 am

Title: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 21, 2013, 11:36:11 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoc

Estoc
weapon length: 107
weight: 1.7
difficulty: 11
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 107
thrust damage: 30 pierce
swing damage: 28 cut                        <--  <--  <-- EDIT: According to hotfix, cut damage  is 26 (site unchanged); My point stands.
slots: 2
Secondary Mode

I don't know what dev planned out the stats for this weapon but they apparently had no idea what the Estoc actually is.  For those you neglected to click the link, here it is again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoc

TLDR: The Estoc is an EDGELESS weapon specifically designed for piercing plate.  Effectively a two handed rondel dagger.

EDITED (Due to feedback)Suggested primary damage stats for the Estoc:

15-18 blunt swing damage
30-35 pierce

Alternative 2 directional (2h & polearm thrust) variant or secondary mode:
35-40 pierce.

What more can I say?
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Panos_ on November 21, 2013, 11:55:10 am
Imo 40 pierce for a lolstab weapon is very low, better make it 100000 just to be sure that 2hand heroes will kill anything.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Prpavi on November 21, 2013, 12:04:50 pm
Estoc with 8ps requires real skill I kid you not. Real skill not to top the scoreboard  :mrgreen:

how is flamtard btw?
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 21, 2013, 12:28:50 pm
Imo 40 pierce for a lolstab weapon is very low, better make it 100000 just to be sure that 2hand heroes will kill anything.

Please don't get me raging about lolstab, I sincerely hate it, but I am putting my desire for a historically accurate stats above my hatred of 2h exploits.

Also, my suggestion would give it the effective stats and function of an awlpike and polearm stab isn't to far below lolstab so deal with it.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: ArysOakheart on November 21, 2013, 12:31:23 pm
Please don't get me raging about lolstab, I sincerely hate it, but I am putting my desire for a historically accurate stats above my hatred of 2h exploits.

If this game was realistic I could have some one on my own team shoot an arbalest through the gaps in my old round shield. Perfect cover.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 21, 2013, 12:53:15 pm
If this game was realistic I could have some one on my own team shoot an arbalest through the gaps in my old round shield. Perfect cover.

Right, so a mod for a game half a decade old isn't the pinnacle of realism, therefore screw it all and start implementing anime swords.

Btw I think shooting through your low resistance shield is actually possible in a technical sense.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: XyNox on November 21, 2013, 12:55:24 pm
http://forum.melee.org/announcements/0-3-1-1/
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: //saxon on November 21, 2013, 01:16:26 pm
Suggested primary damage stats for the Estoc:

15-18 blunt swing damage
35-40 pierce

Alternative 2 directional (2h & polearm thrust) variant or secondary mode:
40-45 pierce.

What more can I say?
are you taking the bloody piss you or what!
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 21, 2013, 01:49:34 pm
are you taking the bloody piss you or what!

Did you look at the link?  A weapon designed for the sole purpose of stabbing through stuff.  If you don't like my suggestion then make your own,  Otherwise don't be such a downvote one line smack talk dickhead.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: //saxon on November 22, 2013, 12:12:58 am
Otherwise don't be such a downvote one line smack talk dickhead.
oi, sort it lad, crying over a downvote?

its a game, not a real life simulation. Think about balance.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Torben on November 22, 2013, 12:17:17 am
shoulde be some sort of 2h awlpike stat wise imo.  not more stab damage,  and not more blunt swing damage
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: spiritus on November 22, 2013, 04:28:58 am
R U CRAZEASYAYDFAYSDYFA;SLDFJA;LSJDFALJDSFLAJSDFLAJSDLJFA;SLDFJ;LJ;ASLDK
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Teeth on November 22, 2013, 02:52:56 pm
I think making it somewhat of an awlpike with 20b swings would be fair and make sense. 106 length 2h stab is nearly awlpike long already. Especially if you take into account the hangtime of the stab which allows you to walk it into people if you are somewhat fast. It has four directions instead of the awlpike's two, similar swing damage would be fine. With the current amount of armour 20b is probably better than 26c, while not being silly for a blunt edged weapon.


oi, sort it lad, crying over a downvote?

its a game, not a real life simulation. Think about balance.
Gawd, can you stop typing like a northern monkey. Fine that you talk that way but if you type like that I hear it when I read.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 22, 2013, 03:48:03 pm
Give it knockdown, too.



On the stab.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Clockworkkiller on November 22, 2013, 08:19:45 pm
Give it knockdown, too.



On the stab.

Don't forget crushthrough and bonus against shields
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Bonzereli on November 22, 2013, 10:30:36 pm
I agree that swing should be a weaker blunt damage. I don't think the pierce damage should be anywhere near what you are suggesting. I do agree that the secondary mode should get a good bump in pierce damage. It does need to remain balanced with swing directions, damage, and cost.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 22, 2013, 10:37:59 pm
Due to the high amounts of negative feedback that I believe is directed at the suggested pierce stat (that was proposed by Jeade) I have lowered the suggested damage number.

Further I'd like to clarify that I don't use 2h at the moment and hate fighting against lolstab and 2h in general.  I simply want stats that reflect the weapon.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: chaosegg on November 26, 2013, 10:10:51 pm
(click to show/hide)
+1
Agree.
Low damage blunt swing seems to make a lot more sense to me.

As it stands now, the weapon looks so good people are likely to start looming it and then be upset if/when it gets nerfed back to semi-realism....
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Utrakil on November 26, 2013, 10:19:43 pm
can someone please post an ingame picture of the estoc? The shop doesn't provide a picture and I don't want to buy it just to have a look.
Thanks
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Tydeus on November 27, 2013, 02:26:48 am
It's not getting blunt damage unless we decide to change the model. Not all estocs had blunted edges.
http://www.myarmoury.com/review_mrl_estoc.html (http://www.myarmoury.com/review_mrl_estoc.html)
"Some estoc blades retain cutting edges while others are so thick in cross-section that they are simply hilted spikes."

Thick cross section, meaning the angles at the edges were more like 75 degree angles, rather than the 20-30 that most bladed weapons would have. Check out the model, blunt wouldn't make sense. Even if you assumed the blade wasn't properly sharpened, the thin blade would still make it more suitable for cutting than bludgeoning.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on November 27, 2013, 05:45:22 am
It's not getting blunt damage unless we decide to change the model. Not all estocs had blunted edges.
http://www.myarmoury.com/review_mrl_estoc.html (http://www.myarmoury.com/review_mrl_estoc.html)
"Some estoc blades retain cutting edges while others are so thick in cross-section that they are simply hilted spikes."

Thick cross section, meaning the angles at the edges were more like 75 degree angles, rather than the 20-30 that most bladed weapons would have. Check out the model, blunt wouldn't make sense. Even if you assumed the blade wasn't properly sharpened, the thin blade would still make it more suitable for cutting than bludgeoning.

Then change the name to something that accurately reflects the model.  What you have there is some kind of a slender longsword, not an Estoc.
These are Estocs:
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Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: HUtH on November 27, 2013, 01:03:30 pm
^ Isn't that a chronologically later weapon(like XVI c.)(like Sidesword btw...)? This Estoc in game is something earlier I suppose, kinda 'proto-estoc', more medieval-ish.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Rebelyell on November 27, 2013, 01:26:12 pm
Imo 40 pierce for a lolstab weapon is very low, better make it 100000 just to be sure that 2hand heroes will kill anything.
its 32 you dummy
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Rebelyell on November 27, 2013, 02:10:12 pm
It's not getting blunt damage unless we decide to change the model. Not all estocs had blunted edges.
http://www.myarmoury.com/review_mrl_estoc.html (http://www.myarmoury.com/review_mrl_estoc.html)
"Some estoc blades retain cutting edges while others are so thick in cross-section that they are simply hilted spikes."

Thick cross section, meaning the angles at the edges were more like 75 degree angles, rather than the 20-30 that most bladed weapons would have. Check out the model, blunt wouldn't make sense. Even if you assumed the blade wasn't properly sharpened, the thin blade would still make it more suitable for cutting than bludgeoning.
20 blunt dmg  will meake that sword op
better keep it cut dmg imo
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Oberyn on November 27, 2013, 06:11:02 pm
When I first heard about the Estoc, I also figured it would be an edgeless sword dedicated entirely to piercing. That's what the name evokes for me anyways, an oversized needle.

Quote
from Old French estoc (“the point of a sword, rapier”), deverbal of estoquer, estochier (“to stab, thrust”), from Middle Dutch stoken (“to thrust, poke”) or Middle High German stoken (“to stab, pierce”), both from Proto-Germanic *stukōną (“to be stiff, push, thrust”), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)teug- (“to beat, thrust, push”)
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: chaosegg on December 15, 2013, 06:33:52 pm
Meh, nevermind.
Far as the stats are now (30p thrust, 28c swing)
the Estoc might be "relatively balanced within the 2h category",
even if it doesn't make a lot of sense realism-wise... many other things are far worse for realism-purposes.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Ronin on December 15, 2013, 07:08:30 pm
I own a MW Estoc now. I'd say it is a balanced sword. Swings do very low damage, so you mostly have to use the thrust attack. Which tones down your strength a bit.
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: chaosegg on December 16, 2013, 02:23:51 pm
I own a MW Estoc now. I'd say it is a balanced sword. Swings do very low damage, so you mostly have to use the thrust attack. Which tones down your strength a bit.
Interesting! Thanks for that info!

For a while I was thinking the swing should be something more like (less than) <25c or <15b ,
but I have come to see I could easily have just been obsessing too much over the "realism factors", instead of the "balance factors".
Title: Re: Is that supposed to be an Estoc?
Post by: Ronin on December 16, 2013, 02:46:36 pm
Well the swings still do some damage of course, otherwise it would have been near to useless. Sometimes they even glance when executed poorly. It's no surprise since it does lower damage than most of the 1h swords.

There is also that small stun when your thrust attack gets blocked.

Other than that, estoc is a very fast weapon with the one of the best thrust attacks if not the best already. One of the best parts was using the thrust against incoming cavalry. Killing the rider in one hit.

By the way, my estoc is gone :P