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Off Topic => Historical Discussion => Topic started by: DrKronic on March 01, 2011, 12:22:29 am

Title: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: DrKronic on March 01, 2011, 12:22:29 am
Also the horse archer vandals and hun contributed to the end of one hand shield throwing western roman empire

Was it tactics, problems with their military system, corruption that was the primary cause of their failure? Or what?

The eastern empire embraced horse archery + compound bow(vardoratai and others) and two handed weapons (varangian guard) and survived until the age of gunpowder...

I know I spelled their elite horse archers name wrong but I am certain someone  will enlighten me
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Sharky on March 01, 2011, 02:41:15 am
Actually the last battles of the roman empire hadn't many romans in it, in most of them after the 400 you would see 2 barbarian armies fighting each other. There are many reason for this decline of the (western) roman army, i will try to name some of them.

1) Trade bring a lot of wealth, but also a lot of nasty diseases. In imperial era sickness not know in europe begin the spread, like Measles, Smallpox and various plagues. Also some of the roman ways wasn't really healty, a lot of them had lead poisoning for example, in late roman empire there was an huge fertility decrease and probably a population decrease in the western half

2) Of course really bad emperors and civil wars didn't help

3)The roman society was largely demilitarized, protected by a small professional army. War  weapons were forbidden and built only on strictly controlled factories, while a roman soldier was considered (barely) able to fight after 2 years of expensive training.
All this when every guy from 14 years to 60 outside the empire was able to fight and had some kind of weapon at disposal.
So when the small professional armies was wiped, there was no defence.

4) Barbarians in the late empire era knew the roman army and their tactics. A lot of them served in the roman army, also the german and scandinavian technology, wealth and population greatly increased after the 200 AC.

5) In the republican era and early empire, romans and non romans really wanted to become soldiers.
A roman soldier had actually a much more  life expectancy and quality of life compared to a civilian, since he had a really good medical care, probably unmatched until 19 century, a really good diet, while casualities in battles were often low. Roman soldiers were really expensive to train, so they took care they didn't die too much.
For the rest of the plebeians there were absolutely no jobs (slaves did everything) the luckiest had some land where they could do some subsistence agricolture, while the others lived in total misery.
When the empire stopped to grow, there were less slaves, and also there was some laws that tried to make the freemans works.
Life conditions greatly increased with the increase of trade and greater avaiability of different kind of food, jobs, and all the roman infrastructure (baths,thermae, aqueducts, roads). Also since the legions fought defensively, no looting anymore = no chances of getting rich.
As a result, nobody wanted to do the soldier.
The soldier work became hereditary, but there are many stories of self inflicted mutilations and desertion, so they could avoid spending all their lives in some fort in the middle of nowhere under really harsh work and discipline (often soldiers were used as free labourers for building roads towns etc).
The problem was initially solved by hiring outsiders, there were always non romans in roman armies, but their presence steadily increased. When they were trained as romans, under roman officials and divided (tribe mates not togheter) they performed as well as roman citizens.
But after Hadrianople, the Legion's prestige was damaged and the outsiders didn't want to serve in a losers army. 
Need made the emperors hire entire tribes, under barbarian leaders and with barbarian equipment/tactics, so legions effectivness greatly decreased.

6) Splitting the empire sounded a cool idea, since it was really hard to control all that land. In pratice was a disaster. The western half of the empire was always pisspoor compared to the eastern half.
Eastern empire had more population, a lot more trade, more culture. While the empire was united a lot of the eastern revenues went to the western part of the empire, the western empire depended on the east even for the food, they got a lot of it from egypt and black sea shores.
When the empire splitted, no more subsidies from the east, and the west started to decline. In the last years of the western half, the east often bribed the barbarians to go to the west and leave them alone actually.
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Belatu on March 01, 2011, 02:54:17 pm
Stopping slavery was the end of Roman Empire
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Sharky on March 01, 2011, 09:59:33 pm
Stopping slavery was the end of Roman Empire
Slavery didn't stop completely even after christianity but yeah was greatly reduced and that caused troubles.

Also in times of food shortages you could eat them

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Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Belatu on March 01, 2011, 10:50:10 pm
Slavery didn't stop completely even after christianity but yeah was greatly reduced and that caused troubles.

Also in times of food shortages you could eat them

(click to show/hide)

Too skinny for me... I prefeer landlords and merchants
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Lennu on March 19, 2011, 01:11:41 am
Also, soldiers and officers no longer swore loyalty to the emperor. More likely to the local landlord or centurion, so in the end everyone was fighting for their own good instead of the mighty empire of Rome. Which lead to corruption and disorganization. 
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Pdogg5954 on March 19, 2011, 02:26:02 am
Rome was one of the only nations economically strong enough to equip all of its troops with standard iron swords.  Germanic warbands, when standarized, were feared for their spears, esp. the Goths.

Swords were weapons for the elite Germans and were not two-handed (not 100% sure on this one).  2 Handed swords came about in high middle ages for countering the heavily armored sergeants and knights.

Were the Vandals horse archers?  That doesn't sound right, though I suppose after they have moved to Carthage.  But that migration happened during the dark ages.
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Sharky on March 19, 2011, 04:03:58 am
Swords were weapons for the elite Germans and were not two-handed (not 100% sure on this one).  2 Handed swords came about in high middle ages for countering the heavily armored sergeants and knights.
Well gauls did use overhead strikes in 2h mode, but i don't think we can call their swords two handed, they were quite short compared to medieval swords and could be used without troubles with one hand.
Celts and germans did have some big 2h axes and maces, and many tribes of that time used weapons that resembles a 2h sword.

Rhompaia, trachian weapon used also by many other ppl (could be used as polearm but also used as an 2h sword if shortened as in this picture)
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Also the romans feared the Dacian Falx, it was used as a bar mace in crpg, to crush blocks, but with cut damage instead of blunt damage.
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Quote
Were the Vandals horse archers?  That doesn't sound right, though I suppose after they have moved to Carthage.  But that migration happened during the dark ages.
No, most of vandals fought on foot, as all germans tribes did. They migrated to Carthage before the fall of rome and the dark ages, the romans tried many times to reconquer it.

Anyway roman's equipment was better then their enemies in early empire era, germans tribe barely had any armours or swords (they were used just by the elite).
Germans also didn't have any logistical or enginering skills, and no professional armies.
In the late empire, germans had much more wealth and started to adopt roman weapons and organization, while roman armies became much more germanized, both in troops (most were germans) and equipment. The result is that a roman army of 400 ac was almost the same as a german army of the same time.

One example is the late empire Spatha, a long 1h sword good at cutting and swings. A german weapon, that replaced the early empire Gladius, a really short 1h sword ideal for thrustings and use by troops in tight formation and with good discipline. Both german armies the roman armies exstensively used that weapon.
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: MadMac on March 30, 2011, 02:30:44 pm
the falx was so feared the romans changed their helmets (to no real advantage against it) in an attempt to stop all the split heads they had :P
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Phalanx300 on March 30, 2011, 03:49:06 pm
Germans and Celts charging in with two handed axes etc. is a myth. Yeah sure there might be some individuals but all ancient descriptions or images show them using shields.  :rolleyes:

That view is just Hollywood. And the falx was used by the Dacians not the Germans.

Franks, Goths etc. weren't two handed trowers. Franks were known to trow the Francisca which was an one handed axe. And probably other Germanic peoples also used this trowing axe though probably to an lesser extent.
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Formless on March 30, 2011, 07:05:15 pm
Germans and Celts charging in with two handed axes etc. is a myth. Yeah sure there might be some individuals but all ancient descriptions or images show them using shields.  :rolleyes:

That view is just Hollywood. And the falx was used by the Dacians not the Germans.

Franks, Goths etc. weren't two handed trowers. Franks were known to trow the Francisca which was an one handed axe. And probably other Germanic peoples also used this trowing axe though probably to an lesser extent.

Houscarls used 2 hand axes sans sheild, but that is later in the medieval age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaG_OO1RYE8&feature=related
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: DrKronic on March 31, 2011, 12:21:53 am
Germans and Celts charging in with two handed axes etc. is a myth. Yeah sure there might be some individuals but all ancient descriptions or images show them using shields.  :rolleyes:

That view is just Hollywood. And the falx was used by the Dacians not the Germans.

Franks, Goths etc. weren't two handed trowers. Franks were known to trow the Francisca which was an one handed axe. And probably other Germanic peoples also used this trowing axe though probably to an lesser extent.

Untrue two hand weapons did exist and were used by celts greatly, stuff like the later irish kern axe and galloglass twohand sword had forebearers and nordic(german etc) people were feared for two hand axe , I don't remember any movie about the gauls but I read alot of books and historical weapons sites

Its actually more a myth that most troops had weapons that required only one hand to use, and the dacian rhompeia and Falx were terrifying twohand weapons(albeit not germanic)
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Phalanx300 on March 31, 2011, 01:45:16 pm
You are speaking of later timeframe. I'm talking about B.C. with those Celts and those Germanics and A.D. Germanics.

Celts did have a two handed sword but it is a myth that they would use it as basic weapon. Same with the dacians, yes they had these brutal Falxes but I'm pretty sure most of the infantry used shields.

Germanics weren't feared for two handed axes. They are in Hollywood yes, but in history? Germanic warrior was actually given a spear and a shield upon becoming a man. Tools such as bows and axes which were used for everyday living were seen as dishonourable weapons because they weren't tools of war. (though one handed axes become more common later with Germanics)
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Sharky on April 08, 2011, 01:42:05 am
Most Germans and Celtic peoples in b.c times (and even after) used 1h weapons like clubs maces spears and swords yes, but 2h weapons were also used by some tribes.
Other examples over the Rhompaia and Falxes that i cited earlier: Britons used a really big 2h sword, and Cimbri were well known for their 2h axes and clubs.

Barbarians usually had troubles in the ranged weapons too.  Pilum was really an important weapon for the romans, they said they used for making the enemy shields useless, but recent tests had proved that they were designed to kill or seriously injure the guy behind the shield too. Also the tip always break when throw so they couldn't be used by the enemy.
Roman artillery like scorpions repeating ballistae onagres etc were also widely used not only in sieges but on open field battles. The romans relied a lot on them to break enemy morale. Also they used a lot of slings and they also started to bring eastern archers (with the composite bow) in the west, but they had some trouble in the rainy northern europe.
Barbarians usually had slingers and bowmens too but much less then the romans and their bows slings and training were much poorer.
I'm talking about earlier empire ofc, in the late empire germans fielded really good archers.
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Phalanx300 on April 21, 2011, 03:28:00 pm
Cimbri known for their two handed axes and clubs? What source? Are your talking about Roma Surrectum 2? And as I said I'm sure some tribes perhaps used a two handed sword but it would only be a small minority of the entire army. Not everyone charging in with two handed weapons.

Early Germanics would also have good archers, seeing hunters generally used bows.
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Kataphraktos on April 21, 2011, 05:40:01 pm
Actually the last battles of the roman empire hadn't many romans in it, in most of them after the 400 you would see 2 barbarian armies fighting each other.
yes u true

there is no Roman in the west after 400s but name. last Roman Emperors moved to East for many reason so Eastern Roman (also True Roman Empire) survived until the age of gunpowder
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Sharky on April 21, 2011, 05:52:38 pm
Cimbri known for their two handed axes and clubs? What source? Are your talking about Roma Surrectum 2? And as I said I'm sure some tribes perhaps used a two handed sword but it would only be a small minority of the entire army. Not everyone charging in with two handed weapons.

Early Germanics would also have good archers, seeing hunters generally used bows.
Spiked and regular clubs were quite wispread among the germanic peoples, swords were not common because of lack of iron, and a club is a more effective weapon then it seems at first glance. With some spike they could also used to pierce the lorica Hamata, that was not good at all against thrust attacks. There is even an account of germans (fighting in the roman army) with spiked clubs piercing parthian chatafract cavalry.

Anyway, i'm not trying to suggest that "barbarians" used mostly 2h weapons.
I agree that the majority of guys used 1h weapons, 2h weapons weren't very effective until the age of plate (shields became useless because the plate was the shield).
But 2h weapons were used too, while celtic people have a "bastard sword" most celtic swords could be used effectivly both in 1h mode and 2h.
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Tristan on May 24, 2011, 01:41:21 am
Its always about money who wins a war.

Economical might = victory.

Rome got sloppy economically, became broke and died.
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Heresiarch on May 30, 2011, 01:42:24 am
In one respect yes, money wins wars - but also ideology.
The Merovingians (Normans) were the ones who brought down the Byzantium Empire. The Pope was of German ancestry and could therefore hire Swabian swordsmen for his empire, but they had no chance against the Norman cavalry! The Normans captured the Pope, but since they were Christians themselves they took him prisoner after receiving his grace. The Normans were in it for the money and the land that Italy had to offer, especially consumables like spices, fruits and such, but they couldn't simply roll in and take it because of ideology and religion. Also it is interesting to note that two Germanic tribes were involved in the downfall of the Roman Empire; the Normans who decended from the Merovigians and the Swabians.
The Germanic people have influenced modern civilization more than we think.

Spiked and regular clubs were quite wispread among the germanic peoples, swords were not common because of lack of iron, and a club is a more effective weapon then it seems at first glance. With some spike they could also used to pierce the lorica Hamata, that was not good at all against thrust attacks. There is even an account of germans (fighting in the roman army) with spiked clubs piercing parthian chatafract cavalry.

Anyway, i'm not trying to suggest that "barbarians" used mostly 2h weapons.
I agree that the majority of guys used 1h weapons, 2h weapons weren't very effective until the age of plate (shields became useless because the plate was the shield).
But 2h weapons were used too, while celtic people have a "bastard sword" most celtic swords could be used effectivly both in 1h mode and 2h.

You know "the age of plate" as you call it lies 12 centuries ahead of the roman empire from the first to the third century yes? The so called barbarians used lamellar armor hundred few years before the roman empire, especially the Alemmanic tribes who battled the west roman empire. Also they used short swords like Sax (which evolved into Langes Messer) and spears, its not called the Iron Age for nothing.
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Sharky on May 30, 2011, 04:10:08 am
You know "the age of plate" as you call it lies 12 centuries ahead of the roman empire from the first to the third century yes? The so called barbarians used lamellar armor hundred few years before the roman empire, especially the Alemmanic tribes who battled the west roman empire. Also they used short swords like Sax (which evolved into Langes Messer) and spears, its not called the Iron Age for nothing.
Actually romans did use plate armours but yeah, i meant the 15 century stuff  :lol:. Armours so good that you could forget the shield and use some big 2h weapon effectively.
Also where did i say that romans invented armours and swords? Actually their lorica hamata is probably celtic stuff.  Anyway "barbarians" did have only few armours, most of the people couldn't afford one. Instead all romans had good armour after the marian reform (the state provided good armours even for the poorest soldier).
Short swords were used not only by roman of course, and i can't think of one people in classical times that didn't use spears.

Its always about money who wins a war.

Economical might = victory.

Rome got sloppy economically, became broke and died.
Of course wealth is very important, but sometimes who had the most $ didn't win. Vietnam War, Greeks and macedonians beating persians multiple times, mongols conquering the chineses (and then most of the world) afghan resistance against british and russians for example.
There are other important factors, like will to fight, technology,training, tactics, weakness to some unknown disease that the enemy could bring, etc etc.
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Heresiarch on May 30, 2011, 11:46:05 am
Trust me some of the germanic tribes could afford anything after their many conquests, the saxons for example got whole of britain when they were asked by the britons to defeat the picts from scotland (funny the romans couldn't beat the picts). Also the vandals came out of nowhere and conquered whole of spain and africa from the romans and drove the western empire into crisis, they practically forged a civilization out of nothing. And dont forget the visigoths also kicked roman ass big time, but thats common knowledge by now :p

Also have you heard of the siegfried saga? Some historians believe it is a metaphor for a germanic tribe (personified by siegfried) slaying a whole roman legion (the dragon) in the forests of germany, thereby gaining vast riches the so called niebelungen treasure, which was cursed and is believed to be on the bottom of a lake in germany. Also some believe that the magical sword Gram was a roman gladius percieved by the germanics to be magic since it was made of steel, a then unknown material to them. Yes the treasure ended up killing siegfried so what do we learn? war for profit is doomed from the start!

~edit~

2hand axe discussion: I am inclined to believe that germanic people preferred small onehanded weapons since they were in the dense forests of europe, but for the sake of arguing I will maintain that 2handed axes were used since the bronze age :)
Oh and one account (although from 1000AD) of the battle of stamford bridge tells of a nordic axeman who held the brige against the saxons and slew 40 of them before dying, see if they knew how effective spamming was in 1000AD then why not a century before also? :p ok ok I tried
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Sharky on May 30, 2011, 02:30:38 pm
Trust me some of the germanic tribes could afford anything after their many conquests, the saxons for example got whole of britain when they were asked by the britons to defeat the picts from scotland (funny the romans couldn't beat the picts). Also the vandals came out of nowhere and conquered whole of spain and africa from the romans and drove the western empire into crisis, they practically forged a civilization out of nothing. And dont forget the visigoths also kicked roman ass big time, but thats common knowledge by now :p
I don't want to enter in a discussion of who were cooler, and we are talking about different times anyway. Roman superiority in the army was just in republican and early imperial time, then there were no roman army, instead germanic tribes were hired to fight for rome. Germany of 400 wasn't the same of germany of 50 bc, '400 germany was much more populated, well organized and wealthy, knew well roman tactics (a lot of germans were indeed at some point a roman soldier, like arminius the guy that kicked roman asses at teutoburg).
Also the Visighots and the Saxons didn't "came out of nowhere". They served in roman armies for centuries, they traded with them, and they were really well organized by '400.
Title: Re: Roman Empire(western) was defeated by twohanded throwers(franks/goths/germans)
Post by: Heresiarch on May 31, 2011, 12:53:30 am
vandals came out of nowhere they are entirely different people than saxon/goths