Add hoplite thrust secondary mode to polearms usable with a shield

[Rhaelys]

As the title suggests, I am suggesting a secondary mode for polearms that are usable with a shield. For example, take the Spear. It can be used with a shield in which it has only one attack direction: a thrust with extended reach, known as a hoplite thrust. If the shield is put away or broken, the Spear has four attack directions, but the thrust attack now has a different attack animation, most notably being shorter than the hoplite thrust. If the Spear had the ability to be switched to a secondary mode, it could then access the hoplite thrust without having a shield in the other hand.

For balance purposes, I would suggest that this secondary mode for all shield-usable polearms without a shield equipped
1) only allow the hoplite thrust attack direction
2) not have the ability to block (since blocking with that animation was done with a shield)

Thus, it would provide no advantage in most combat situations (as switching to access a different attack animation would leave you exposed and unable to block).

There are only a few advantages this secondary mode would offer: increased ability to participate in line battles without a shield (as hoplites normally do) and an increased reach to hit horses without a shield (as hoplites normally do). I could also envision an infantry switching to the secondary mode to gain enough reach on the thrust animation to catch an enemy who is attempting to run away.

Comments and criticisms are welcome.

[Lennu]

This is actually a really good idea. And well balanced if you are actually unable to block with this mode.
Not sure how it will work with weapons like bec de corbin. It has 2ndary more with blunt damage already + it can be used with a shield(I think).

[DUKE DICKBUTT]

Sure, right after you break the hilariously broken stab animations.  There's no reason the side of the shaft colliding into me should still count as pierce damage.  It should be a nerf.

And then remove Pikes, because they're used in an improper fashion more than half the time.

[Malaclypse]

Sure, right after you break the hilariously broken stab animations.  There's no reason the side of the shaft colliding into me should still count as pierce damage.  It should be a nerf.

That should be adjusted, yes. Same with the drag and drop 2h deal (overhead, drag into enemy, profit). Still works despite turn changes.

Soooorry, Rhaelys. I'm for it, can't see any reason to deny this as you put it forth.

[Rhaelys]

Please keep discussion focused on the suggestion I presented, which solely deals with adding a secondary mode animation to polearms that can be used with a shield. Comments or concerns about hitboxes of weapon animations and such should be made in another thread.

[owens]

@lennu Bec cannot be used with shield


This is a great idea and will give another minor buff to the (historically) greatest weapon of all time the spear.

[DUKE DICKBUTT]

Please keep discussion focused on the suggestion I presented, which solely deals with adding a secondary mode animation to polearms that can be used with a shield. Comments or concerns about hitboxes of weapon animations and such should be made in another thread.

They need to be discussed as a whole, otherwise you would not be taking balance into account.  If you get more variety, you need to give up damage and/or speed.  Most consider hoplites to already be over powered.

[Rhaelys]

They need to be discussed as a whole, otherwise you would not be taking balance into account.  If you get more variety, you need to give up damage and/or speed.  Most consider hoplites to already be over powered.

Again, please do not try to derail my topic. Consider this: if a hoplite has no shield and tries to switch to the hoplite-thrust secondary mode, he or she can't block. Which means you get a free hit if you can capitalize on that. Hoplites can already hoplite thrust with a shield... give me a good reason why they shouldn't be able to do that without a shield in their other hand. If anything, it would be easier to hoplite-stab without a shield in your other hand.

It just seems to me like you have a personal issue with hoplites. That's fine, but please address those concerns in another thread.

[Teeth]

I think this is a great idea and without blocking I think it should not unbalance things too much. Having discovered that the ashwood pike without shield is awesome again, this addition would make it incredibly awesome. It's somewhat like taking a practice shield out when you see cav coming.

What you can do with one hand with a shield is of course also possible with one hand without a shield. With loads of other weapons getting awesome and useful secondary modes, I think this is a good change and it adds a cool new element.

Also, add couching on foot please for 10+ athlethics, if only for hilarity reasons.

[DUKE DICKBUTT]

Again, please do not try to derail my topic. Consider this: if a hoplite has no shield and tries to switch to the hoplite-thrust secondary mode, he or she can't block. Which means you get a free hit if you can capitalize on that. Hoplites can already hoplite thrust with a shield... give me a good reason why they shouldn't be able to do that without a shield in their other hand. If anything, it would be easier to hoplite-stab without a shield in your other hand.

It just seems to me like you have a personal issue with hoplites. That's fine, but please address those concerns in another thread.

Okay, then you can change my response to "Don't add this because hoplite is already too powerful."

[Teeth]

Okay, then you can change my response to "Don't add this because hoplite is already too powerful."

This change doesn't affect hoplites at all though. Why would a hoplite put his shield on his back and switch to secondary mode to do the exact same stab he already can do with a shield? This change affects people that use spears without a shield. Which since the turn rate nerf and pole stagger removal, have become rather rare. They used to be good because you could pole stagger someone with the weak sideswings (or overhead if 2D) and then get a high damage stab in. Very little reason to pick a war spear over a poleaxe now if you do not use a shield.

With this change they get a nice new niche, which they can really use. It would be a very situational thing, because giving up blocking is a big deal, but still it's nice to have.

[DUKE DICKBUTT]

This change doesn't affect hoplites at all though. Why would a hoplite put his shield on his back and switch to secondary mode to do the exact same stab he already can do with a shield? This change affects people that use spears without a shield. Which since the turn rate nerf and pole stagger removal, have become rather rare. They used to be good because you could pole stagger someone with the weak sideswings (or overhead if 2D) and then get a high damage stab in. Very little reason to pick a war spear over a poleaxe now if you do not use a shield.

With this change they get a nice new niche, which they can really use. It would be a very situational thing, because giving up blocking is a big deal, but still it's nice to have.

Right but the stab a horse a mile away to read it thing is already ridiculous.  I don't want more people to be able to do it.

[oprah_winfrey]

Right but the stab a horse a mile away to read it thing is already ridiculous.  I don't want more people to be able to do it.

That is a shitty reason. Besides people could just equip a 0 requirement shield and do it anyway.

[DUKE DICKBUTT]

That is a shitty reason. Besides people could just equip a 0 requirement shield and do it anyway.

Nope, that would require 3 shield skill.

[Phantasmal]

The practice shields are all 0 difficulty according to the website.

Personally, I see no problem with giving spearmen an animation they already use anyways. The ability to not block and the lock in only one attack direction more than makes up for this proposed change. It would provide more people the ability to fend off cavalry before the two forces collide (but these people already exist to begin with).  Once the forces collide with each other most of these no-shield-long-stabbers will go back to their regular animations anyways.