cRPG

cRPG => Scene Editing => Topic started by: Elindor on June 18, 2012, 06:47:43 am

Title: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 18, 2012, 06:47:43 am
Elindor's Map Feedback & Updates Thread
-----------------------------------------------------
(Screenshots may not be updated to latest patch)

For feedback/suggestions on my maps.

1 - Rochester Castle (Siege NA/EU2)   Latest version V1.8 - 8/1/2013
SUBMISSION POST : http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,14302.msg514237.html#msg514237
SCO : https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0bUrKT_N7X4YlIwU0FmZEgyR3c/edit?usp=sharing
(click to show/hide)

2 - Devonshire Keep (Siege NA/EU2)   Latest version V1.5 - 7/31/2012
SUBMISSION POST : http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,14302.msg526160.html#msg526160
SCO : https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0bUrKT_N7X4WWRQSXVOczlXd2M/edit?usp=sharing
(click to show/hide)

3 - Himmelsberg Monastery (Siege NA/EU2) Latest version V1.4 - 7/29/2013
SCO : https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0bUrKT_N7X4M1JmaEVRQlNaVk0/edit?usp=sharing
SUBMISSION POST : http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,14302.msg541326.html#msg541326
:: SCREENSHOTS ::
(click to show/hide)

4 - Dun Bhirum (Siege NA/EU2)   Latest version V1.1 - 11/25/2013
SCO FILE  : https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0bUrKT_N7X4dl9KOWR6cTlFelE/edit?usp=sharing
SCENE TEXT : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qAf0Rb7utv850LdAdCOhLE45oMSbeqjxPn5qXLdBykc/edit?usp=sharing
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Elindor's Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Ozin on June 18, 2012, 12:50:37 pm
Looks interesting. Kind of hard to comment on the balance of it with pictures only. Are there multiple entrances to the roof of that keep?

Nice job for it being your first map as well :)
Title: Re: Elindor's Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 18, 2012, 04:29:32 pm
Looks interesting. Kind of hard to comment on the balance of it with pictures only. Are there multiple entrances to the roof of that keep?

Nice job for it being your first map as well :)

Yes, there is the main stone staircase (wide and with railings to prevent falling) on the front of the keep, and a more precarious wooden stairway on the backside that splits and has 2 access routes to the backside of the roof where flag is.

Feel free to load it up!

And I hope the spawns are right...my ladder entry points are numbered 100 and 101 but when I added bots to the scene I think it spawned a bunch of cavalry from those spots...not sure.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Mustikki on June 18, 2012, 10:14:14 pm
I took a quick view around the map and here is what i found:

You need to place entry point 0. As it states the defenders spawning circle and it affects to attackers spawns aswell.
The Flag is too defensible up there, might be too long way to climb to tower, but try solution below first.
Also it is long way to run from attackers spawns. Possible solution: Only 1-3 defenders spawns at tower to make fight stay at the walls and makes keeping walls more important.
Only 1 door on backdoor could be better than 2, as its still long climbing to the tower.

As it is now, it flavours tower camping as defenders.
Placing items at attackers camp, is fun but doesn't give anything for game wide as its all behind the fighting area and view.
Some other than sea_outer_terrain_2 would fit better.
Found 1 wall at wooden stairs that ends in mid air.
You can invert props, so the wooden stairs ends up to wall.

That's all the cons i could find for now.
Starting scening career with a siege map is no easy. Making a balanced siege map is no easy and requires lots of changes in future. Even still the map looks quite fine and there is some creatively used props in the scene and i do believe this map will end balanced and fun to play. :)
Also the lack of constructive feedback from players just sucks generally.

There is no access to the new servers set yet, so it will take sometime untill your map/or any will be added.

Edit: Also when making new maps in future, you should use a copy of crpg's newest version rather than native copy ( i saw some invalid items). There is some nice new props too.
Couple very useful guides for scening: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,163368.msg3951938.html#msg3951938
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,89831.0.html
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,112806.0.html
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 19, 2012, 02:08:04 am
Mustikki, thanks for such thorough feedback!!  I really do appreciate it.

I'll got item by item:
(struck through items already done)

- Entry point 0, will do...somehow i missed it :)
- I was thinking I might need to alter defense spawns to spawn more of them AWAY from the flag, will do NOW ONLY 4 SPAWN ON FLAG PLATFORM
- Will change postern to 1 door rather than 2
- Will probably move Attack Spawn 1 a little closer I think its ok for now compared to other siege maps in rotation, gonna have to see it in  action to really judge.

- I will reduce props in areas that aren't going to be highly trafficked, like behind attacker spawn 2.
- I had tried sea_outer_terrain_1, are there any others that have water as most of the horizon? Think I actually do like sea2 the best for this one...least distracting and wanted this to be mostly surrounded by water or at least marshy lowland.
- The wall that ends in mid air... think i found it.

- I know it isnt easy, but I enjoy siege maps and if i can get some feedback from you guys I can revise it and learn from it :)  I want to start making some maps, I think this community needs more mappers and people interested in that side of things.  Players also need to realize that they need to give proper feedback, yeah.

- I am ok with the map not going up for a bit - gives us time to work out kinks like this!  Although it is hard to fully test until its up.

- I used Kong Ming's guide for getting started: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1385.0.html
Gonna transfer my files over to CRPG now though

============================================================================

**Not sure how to add my scene info to the CRPG scenes list so I can modifier it in there....
cant find it when i try...is there a guide to this?
Copied CRPG, called it something else
Added .sco file to appropriate folder, and added the scene info into the scenes.txt
Loaded the copied mod, selected HOST, selected SIEGE, clicked through maps and didnt see it....

EDIT - ok Branches helped me with this.


Would really help if there was a basic "heres how to start a new scene in the crpg editor" guide
Peasant_woman, myself and others are working on this now ;)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 19, 2012, 07:45:50 am
Also, thinking about making the gates breakable....and moving a couple defender spawns back up top, to make it more about the ascent of the keep....not sure. 

kinda need to see it played out on a server lol :)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Branches on June 19, 2012, 07:50:38 am
First off, the map looks great so far! NICE WORK! ^^

**Not sure how to add my scene info to the CRPG scenes list so I can modifier it in there....
cant find it when i try...is there a guide to this?
Copied CRPG, called it something else
Added .sco file to appropriate folder, and added the scene info into the scenes.txt
Loaded the copied mod, selected HOST, selected SIEGE, clicked through maps and didnt see it....

Would really help if there was a basic "heres how to start a new scene in the crpg editor" guide

=====================================================================================================
I had this same issue. Here is how I solved it:
-Rename your map(temporarily) to a pre-existing siege map's current name. I used "scn_Heisenberg.sco".
 (you could use "scn_sorrows_anchorage.sco", nobody likes that one anyways! ^^)
 So just call "scn_Heisenberg.sco" "scn_Heisenberg1.sco" or something (to save it) and name your map "scn_Heisenberg.sco".
 Heisenberg will show up on that list, so just load that one and TADA you have access to your map (but not the terrain info yet. SEE BELOW)!

-You will also have to do this same process within scenes.txt file to give Heisenberg your maps terrain info. Again just
 rename the current Heisenberg to something and copy in your scenes.txt info then change its name to Heisenberg to match your now changed ".sco" file.
 *Make sure you note the format on the original Heisenberg line in scenes.txt before you change it. Make your map's name look just like that! xD
 
-When time comes to submit your map simply rename the ".sco" file and "scenes.txt" info to whatever you want the name to be and submit.
================================================================================================================

I hope that was clear enough... sometimes I can be very hard to understand. Please let me know if you have any questions! ^^
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 19, 2012, 08:14:40 am
hmm that makes sense but why is this so complicated? no wonder we dont have maps ;)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Branches on June 19, 2012, 08:21:49 am
lol, yea there is a lot of sorcery going on behind the scenes that I don't quite follow. ^^

Let me know if you can't get that working.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 19, 2012, 08:38:28 am
Works....weird.

So you just take a map like Heisenberg, remake it entirely under the guise of Heisenberg while you're making it, and then at the end change the name for submission?

Map looks better in crpg btw.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Branches on June 19, 2012, 08:45:07 am
lol yea, pretty much. glad it works ^^

And I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure CRPG has different items so you probably want to work on it the whole time in the crpg editor. If I understand the situation properly ^^
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 19, 2012, 08:47:30 am
Yeah.

So did you just open up Heisenberg and delete everything and start over when you made Sorrow's Reach?
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Branches on June 19, 2012, 08:59:56 am
Nah I used blank1. I think maybe that only exists with crpg not sure if they have them in native or not. I forget.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 20, 2012, 05:09:39 am
Updated Rochester Castle with a couple things:

Rochester Castle V1.2   6/20/2012
- Updated to move most defender spawns OFF of the flag area and down to walls, and made postern have 1 door, rather than 2.
  (Also some extraneous items removed)
- Updated to fit cRPG specs (removed invalid items, etc)

FILES (up on google drive, access rights given to anyone with link)
SCO : https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0bUrKT_N7X4X1RjeGdiM1pxSk0
SCENE TXT : https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0bUrKT_N7X4cy10XzdaZ2hvbGM
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: spl00gedon on June 20, 2012, 10:55:06 am
Damn Elindor.... what DON'T you do hahaha
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 20, 2012, 04:22:52 pm
Guess we'll find out! :)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Muunilinst on June 20, 2012, 07:23:45 pm
when u make screenshots of your map press "H" before to see the map without the transparent ater and other stuff which disturbs in a photo
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 21, 2012, 06:28:32 pm
when u make screenshots of your map press "H" before to see the map without the transparent ater and other stuff which disturbs in a photo

Cool, thanks!
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 23, 2012, 05:20:04 am
Sneak peak of the map im working on now...

Perhaps something like "Drevinshire Keep"....or something like that.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


It's pretty much a motte and bailey design.  Basically attackers come across bridge to the village surrounding this keep.  The lower defenses are already down (hence the fire and no gate) so attackers pretty much rush into village streets and make their way up towards the keep.  At the keep is a stone wall with 2 entry points (each with a breakable gate door).  Inside is the courtyard and the flag. 
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Kreczor on June 23, 2012, 05:43:32 am
Either don't allow defenders to spawn close to the initial gate or allow for more entry points instead of the single bridge idea. What will essentially happen is people camping the bridge all map and attackers will have no fun sitting at the wall the whole time.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 23, 2012, 05:55:12 am
Either don't allow defenders to spawn close to the initial gate or allow for more entry points instead of the single bridge idea. What will essentially happen is people camping the bridge all map and attackers will have no fun sitting at the wall the whole time.

Yeah defenders wont spawn near the bridge in any real numbers...I might have 1 or 2 defense spawns somewhat nearby, but otherwise, no.
The bridge passage is meant to be a "gimme" for the attackers...unless they get really pushed back by the defenders.

Not a bad idea to give a secondary entry that attackers can use IF they get that pushed back, thanks!
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 23, 2012, 07:50:32 am
one idea I had was to add a ladder half way up the main keep.

If the attackers push half way up the main stairs there is a deploy-able ladder there that links directly the wall where the attackers are coming from. That way as they push forward they have a chance to cut down the time it takes them to get closer and it would create a contested area for the defenders to keep an eye on.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 23, 2012, 09:02:42 am
one idea I had was to add a ladder half way up the main keep.

If the attackers push half way up the main stairs there is a deploy-able ladder there that links directly the wall where the attackers are coming from. That way as they push forward they have a chance to cut down the time it takes them to get closer and it would create a contested area for the defenders to keep an eye on.

Good idea, except I am not requiring entry into the keep at all.  Once the attackers break down the destructable doors that surround the keep area, they get to a courtyard where the flag is.  The keep can be entered but mostly it will be defenders spawning there and coming down to the courtyard to defend the flag, or if that defender is an archer/xbow they can stop at vantage points where they can shoot down at the flag area.

But yeah, attackers do not need to enter the keep, unless they wanna spawn kill or find archers to slaughter :)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: agile on June 24, 2012, 02:39:25 am
Lookin real good Elindor, hopefully someone can access the server and put ur maps in.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 24, 2012, 04:09:09 am
Thanks Agile!

-----------------------

Couple questions guys :

1 - So when I open my map with Scene Editor and place crpg_construction site they are there and when i mouse over they are destructable it says (although since character has no weapon I can't attack them - can we have them spawn with a weapon?)

When I open that same map by Hosting it....they crpg_construction sites arent there.
How come?  And are there other objects I could use that are quickly destroyable?  Just looking for something to slow them down for a couple seconds.

2 - Also - Is there a door shaped like the viking_keep_destroy_door that opens?  When I put it in it seems to have no interactivity.  The viking_keep_destroy_sally_doors are functionable but can only be opened from the inside....loooking for something destructable of that shape that can be opened by defense from either side.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 25, 2012, 09:46:28 pm
Anyone know any answers to the above questions?

oh, and here's new progress on my motte & bailey map!
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Kreczor on June 26, 2012, 12:58:55 am
It's looking great so far! Any access to those rooftops at all for defenders? If so try and bridge them all together just to give defenders a bit more help. Especially since the new siege mode will have longer times, you have to accommodate the defenders since they'll be fighting longer as well.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Ozin on June 26, 2012, 01:27:47 am
1 - So when I open my map with Scene Editor and place crpg_construction site they are there and when i mouse over they are destructable it says (although since character has no weapon I can't attack them - can we have them spawn with a weapon?)

When I open that same map by Hosting it....they crpg_construction sites arent there.
How come?  And are there other objects I could use that are quickly destroyable?  Just looking for something to slow them down for a couple seconds.
crpg_construction is the scene object that the server spawns when a player places a construction site. It is not supposed to be placed by the mapper. There are several other scene object with the crpg prefix that are not supposed to be used in scenes. I think all of them are removed at the start of the round, so they will just disappear.

2 - Also - Is there a door shaped like the viking_keep_destroy_door that opens?  When I put it in it seems to have no interactivity.  The viking_keep_destroy_sally_doors are functionable but can only be opened from the inside....loooking for something destructable of that shape that can be opened by defense from either side.
No, the viking doors only have the sally door as an interactive scene prop. The other one is just a simple mesh with no additional code.

It's looking great so far! Any access to those rooftops at all for defenders? If so try and bridge them all together just to give defenders a bit more help. Especially since the new siege mode will have longer times, you have to accommodate the defenders since they'll be fighting longer as well.
Keep in mind that the map maker will be able to set the time limit. He could set it to the same as the current servers now use if he wished.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 26, 2012, 02:46:43 am
Thanks Kreczor - yeah there will be access to the roofs.

Ozin, thanks for the answers.

1 - are there any objects with low HP at the moment that can be placed?

2 - are there any doors SHAPED like the viking ones (fill a big arch basically) that can be opened by defense from either side and are destructable?
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Ozin on June 26, 2012, 02:49:42 am
I'll try to squeeze it in with the other changes. Adding a sally door version of the viking gates that is. And no, there aren't any destructible props other than doors atm.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 26, 2012, 03:02:08 am
ah cool....

there is a sally door version of the viking door....we need one shaped like that that can be opened by defenders from either side (current ones once you go out, you cant get back in...its a sally door)

also, would be cool if you could assign HP to some objects, like tables, benches, barrels, etc or if they just had a predetermined amount of HP which was appropriately low (like the same as construction sites or less) that would function as "temporary defenses" ....something defenders threw up in a last ditch attempt to slow them down - which is always popular in films ;)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 26, 2012, 08:01:44 am
Ok basically just made those entrances 2 of the smaller doors.

(click to show/hide)

Tweaking some stuff tomorrow but should be ready to submit soon!


...not like we can put them up anyhow...whats the ETA on that?  Do we know?
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 27, 2012, 05:09:17 am
Devonshire Keep submitted, first post updated with info...
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Mustikki on June 28, 2012, 04:39:12 pm
Crpg_Construction_sites at Devonshire's first gate doesn't work. As Ozin said in some another thread certain crpg_ props are loaded only in certain cases, this one is when a player sets ground the construction site.

(click to show/hide)

You might also want to finish the back of the inner castle. The invisible walls wouldn't be so urgent then.

Imagine a bow on character hands and group of enemies infront of the gate trying to break it, while couple would try to get to my character while bashing their heads on the invisible wall. -> Prevent defenders abuse possibility like at the pic.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 28, 2012, 05:55:46 pm
Ah, yeah the wood pile there is supposed to be just the non-crpg one - wood_heap_b (non functional) its just there as another obstacle basically....debris if you will.

And on the invisible wall - that's a good point.  I will work on that and resubmit.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 28, 2012, 06:25:24 pm
Try this one (updated submission link too)

- removed the crpg props and just left the regular non-interactive prop at the broken gates
- added walls around the back and revised the terrain there

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0bUrKT_N7X4cHVwYlppRXBsVkk


** Still not sure if Devonshire is gonna be a bit too easy for attack and/or Rochester a bit too easy for defense....kinda just need to see them played in game unless you have anymore thoughts Mustikki (or anyone else)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 28, 2012, 10:27:43 pm
According to post by Mustikki, Devonshire and Rochester are up on NA2

So please let me know any constructive feedback I can use to refine these two maps!
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: agile on June 30, 2012, 03:05:37 am
A couple of us were playing Rochester castle today, maybe 12v12 I think? I believe each side won at least one round but I would like to see it with more people.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 30, 2012, 03:15:19 am
yeah, thats too small to know unfortunately, thanks for feedback though!  def give more if you see rochester or devonshire in a bigger group.

although it being even with a small pop might mean its too easy to defend, since usually with low pop defense loses most everytime....but we'll see
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 30, 2012, 09:19:17 am
OK I PLAYED ROCHESTER AND DEVONSHIRE TONIGHT

- Rochester I think is pretty even, most people thought it would be slanted towards defense, but it went 3-2 offense - and no one has used the siege tower yet.  I want to see this one more before revising anything major.

- Devonshire with the door bug first round and some spawns operating differently than i planned is WAYY too easy for offense currently.
I will solve this with a breakable door at the main attack spawn to slow them down, and maybe even adding gatehouses with ladders into the flag area.  Some have suggested moving the flag into the keep, that is also an option.  I WILL BE FIXING THIS ASAP

QUESTION
I have spawn points in some places (offense) that are not being used at round start....does it utilize the lower numbers first?
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Branches on June 30, 2012, 09:22:14 am
I played Rochester Castle today with roughly 58 people and just wanted to share my view on the map and perhaps some of its possible issues.

- Spawning as an attacker across the bridge can lead to a bit of a walk (At least compared to other routes).
 I was a little sad each time I spawned there and while the distance isn't anything ridiculous, it might be nice to shorten the bridge somewhat.

- I noticed as attacker that there are at least two roofs that many people jump onto from the wall which perhaps cause a small issue.
 [one is shown on the left side of the below picture]
(click to show/hide)
The problem is that many people naturally jump onto these roofs to get to the ground but then realize that the fall is farther than they had expected.
 There is then no way for them to get off the roofs other than jumping down and taking fall damage(a fall from the roof shown above took around 50%
 of my health, while wearing basically no armor[if that matters...]). I realize that if you are very careful you can fall down right onto the steps below or
 next to them and take no fall damage. However, many people don't realize this and I witnessed numerous occasions where people hung around on
 the roof looking for a safe place to jump off.

- It would be great if you could think of a way to encourage more people to use the rear path to flag. This would require defense to spread their forces
 a little more and basically it's just really cool having to watch both ascent paths. Though, this slight issue may deal with itself after people become
 more accustomed to the map.

- While climbing the main stone stairs to flag as attacker I found that defenders often dropped down behind attackers from the 4th flight of stairs to
 the 3rd. I believe this was a mixture of people who intended to flank attacking forces and those who fell off the relatively slender 4th flight of stairs.
 The only reason I'm mentioning this is if it turns out that people see this map as favoring the defenders (which seems possible) you could perhaps
 place a railing on the 4th flight of stairs like you did on the 3rd. It seemed to me that many pushes to flag were stopped at this point.
**EDIT** After further consideration I now believe that the above suggestion could probably be disregarded. ^^

- Another possible issue is that once attackers get to flag they are very nearly completely surrounded by hard to reach archers. making it difficult to
 hold the position. Honestly, I'm not sure how I would suggest you solve this problem as I really like the current layout of the flag area. I believe a
 greater emphasis on the rear path to flag would clear our most of the archers, but this didn't seem to happen very often and certainly not in force
 (at least the times I played).

Overall, I liked this map A LOT. It has a great sense of scale and I very much enjoyed playing on both attack and defense. It's also original and
therefore is a welcome change of pace within the current rotation.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 30, 2012, 10:03:08 am
Thanks Branches, yeah I liked how Rochester played out.

Did you get to play on Devonshire?
Devonshire is a victim of the door bug big time, and also is just too easy for offense right now overall, so Im adding the "earth sally doors" at the bridge so the attackers have to take some time there to hack them down, i will also add a ladder probably there.

I might also make the entry's into the flag area gatehouses with ladders, not sure.

Do you know how spawns work?  It seems it uses the lower number ones first, so I may need to move some around on both maps .  On Rochester it was not spawning people by the siege tower until later, and on Devonshire it was not spawning any defenders in the lower village till later.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Branches on June 30, 2012, 07:19:03 pm
Nope, I haven't played Devonshire yet, but I'll let you know what I think once I do.

==============================================================================================
I was also curious about the spawns so I tested them out a bit and there seems to be no preference for filling lower numbers first.
It does however prefer to spawn teammates together. So spawning 10 players on a team will tend to spawn a large group in one area
(with perhaps a straggler or two in another location) or two medium-sized groups. These groupings seem to be mostly formed at
locations of a certain distance from enemies.

In fact, during my testing in many cases it seemed even the distinction between attacker and defender spawn points wasn't well
enforced, instead preferring a grouping of teammates at a desirable distance from enemies over players spawning at their teams
spawn points...

This is weird and was maybe just an issue with the map I was using? It would be VERY strange if spawning was actually handled this
way(intentionally). That just wouldn't make any sense...
===============================================================================================

It seems possible to me that a greater number of spawn points in another location other than at the siege tower could cause the main
body of the attacking forces to spawn together at that other location most of the time, leaving the siege tower area largely unpopulated.

If you think about it most siege maps have the attackers spawning in one large clump, instead of spreading them out across an area...
perhaps this is why? Maybe after you put so many spawn points in one spot the trend is tipped towards spawning mostly everyone there.
This possibly wouldn't be as big an issue for defenders as their spawn points are generally more evenly dispersed.

**EDIT**I wonder if it would solve the issue if you had a more even number of spawn points at the siege tower as at other major spawn locations
(You may already I'm not sure ^^), or if you made the dispersion of attacker spawn points more uniform?


Maybe this also plays a role in the Devonshire defender spawns? DUNNO! Hope this helped at least somewhat! ^^
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 30, 2012, 07:28:49 pm
Interesting branches...

Mustikki (or anyone) maybe you could give us some insight here?

On ROCHESTER I have attackers spawning half across bridge and half near siege engine, both big groups of spawns.  At round start, ALL spawn across bridge, no one spawns near siege engine.  After that occational people spawn near siege engine but still 80-90% spawn across bridge despite HALF of the spawns being over by siege engine....

On DEVONSHIRE I have many of the defense spawns down in lower village but at round start NO ONE spawns down there, all spawn up in keep area...after round start occational people spawn in village area, but not as many as should. 

WHY is this?
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Mustikki on June 30, 2012, 10:52:39 pm
The spawning is very complicated. There was somewhere at taleworlds forums someone trying to figure it out. Cant find it now.
But it basically reads the range from entry point (0 def, 32 att) & enemies around (so lower chance to spawn next to enemy group), how close it is to friendlies..

Ps. Found, here: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,113298.0.html

Also at round start every attacker spawns at entry point 32.

Ok so the spawner was designed to move spawns around an area.
This works great for most game modes and even for siege when all the attackers are coming from 1 side.

However if you are working on large maps or if you have spawns on 2 sides then it probably won't work.
The spawn script takes distances from the friendly base and the enemy base and does calculations around those.
It doesn't care if spawns are friendly or enemy.

Another thing, at devonshire atleast some of the destructable doors are placed upside down. When they break, they raise up instead than drop down.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 30, 2012, 11:12:39 pm
Aha, I will post this info into Peasant_womans guide...

And I will use this info to revise both Devonshire and Rochester tonight and get you new files.

Sorry!
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 01, 2012, 06:06:52 am
K new versions submitted....

question Mustikki....Rochester showed up on the server as Blank 6 when i was looking at servers....why is that?
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Para on July 01, 2012, 09:47:00 am
Played the new version of devonshire today, gotta say I love the map now. The bottlenecked flag area and the outer door really make the map work for defenders. Next time I end up on the attacking side on that map I can give more feedback for the other side. It seems pretty balanced now though.

Played rochester today as well, and even though I hate walking upward for a minute, attackers were still able to win if the defenders didn't cover the chokepoints. This one seems a little more difficult for attackers to win on. I felt if the attackers didn't win on the first wave of attack that it would be too difficult to overtake the defense. Again, once I play the map on defense I can give a better outlook. It seems if defense spawned in the lower areas then attackers might have a better shot of winning (which they might already, I don't know all the spawn locations).

All in all, I like both maps and they are a welcome addition to the siege rotation.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Mustikki on July 01, 2012, 11:55:38 am
question Mustikki....Rochester showed up on the server as Blank 6 when i was looking at servers....why is that?

Servers/clients haven't been updated to the latest version where the maps are included.
At the current version the new maps use place holders (blank_##), so their name is showing the place holders name.
- Thats also why people need to load the map when playing it first time.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 01, 2012, 04:22:55 pm
aha..

you are so full of answers Mustikki :)

sorry i ask so many !  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: spl00gedon on July 02, 2012, 12:34:56 pm
aha..

you are so full of answers Mustikki :)

sorry i ask so many !  :mrgreen:

BababaBump
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 03, 2012, 07:43:37 pm
Thinking of making a medieval monastery in the snowy mountains....(siege)

Would probably have a cross or two....
Anyone think that would be an issue?  I mean it is a medieval monastery.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Kreczor on July 03, 2012, 11:27:36 pm
I think it'd be quite interesting to have a siege map that revolved around a specific theme, and a cross/monastery is a great way to show it off. See what you can whip up (a basic looking castle, don't put too much time into it) just to see what it'll look like before moving on.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 05, 2012, 04:13:02 pm
Any more feedback on DEVONSHIRE or ROCHESTER?

I've caught Devonshire on the servers a couple times and been able to check it out....only seen Rochester on the server a couple times so feedback on how that one is going would be great (when I did see it, seemed pretty balanced and Offense/Defense scores were similar)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 05, 2012, 04:24:07 pm
Oh, also...Kreczor here are some previews of a rough monastery siege map.

Working name - Himmelsberg Monastery

Offense starts across a bridge spanning a mountain chasm, short run to gates which are destructable.  After that attackers enter the main courtyard, fight their way into the secondary courtyard, then there is a chokepoint getting into main flag area (set up like a church interior with pews, altar, etc).  There is also a backdoor to the whole complex but that is a longer run.  Details of balance still being worked out.

(click to show/hide)

* is the christ-like figure on the cross too much??  it is a monastery after all....
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Mustikki on July 05, 2012, 06:46:35 pm
Looking good  :D

And yes, the figure on the cross is too much.  :lol:

Also remember tocrh_night & light_night and placed wisely.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 05, 2012, 06:57:29 pm
Ok i'll lose the figure, but keep the cross....

And yeah I'm using "night" lights.  I will be careful, may reduce the candles more too :)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Kreczor on July 05, 2012, 09:26:16 pm
Oh my, that monastery is gorgeous, great job! If you can't keep the figure exchange it for bones!
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jarlek on July 05, 2012, 11:14:56 pm
Nice maps!

I really like how that monestary looks, especially the flag area. I can think of a lot of decent strategies for that particular part :P
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 05, 2012, 11:19:41 pm
Oh, also...Kreczor here are some previews of a rough monastery siege map.

Working name - Himmelsberg Monastery

Offense starts across a bridge spanning a mountain chasm, short run to gates which are destructable.  After that attackers enter the main courtyard, fight their way into the secondary courtyard, then there is a chokepoint getting into main flag area (set up like a church interior with pews, altar, etc).  There is also a backdoor to the whole complex but that is a longer run.  Details of balance still being worked out.

(click to show/hide)

* is the christ-like figure on the cross too much??  it is a monastery after all....
This is just a personal opinion, but I hate mixed wall textures, if possible I'd appreciate it if you didn't mix the rhodock-swad textures that much.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 05, 2012, 11:43:27 pm
I agree Zlisch, and I try not to....but sometimes what you want to do requires it and the scene props are somewhat limited, as well as the functionality of the editor itself :(

For that reason, I allow inconsistencies when I have to for gameplay.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 06, 2012, 12:02:26 am
I agree Zlisch, and I try not to....but sometimes what you want to do requires it and the scene props are somewhat limited, as well as the functionality of the editor itself :(

For that reason, I allow inconsistencies when I have to for gameplay.
If you use the right props carefully and stretch them enough you can cover the "rhodock" wall with an extremely thin layer of some other wall, just a tip.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 06, 2012, 07:49:28 am
Rochester may need some minor adjustments for balance....not sure yet - need to watch it more.

If anyone who plays it can report their thoughts on balance of the map please do (preferably constructive in nature :))
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Tanken on July 06, 2012, 08:36:00 am
In Devonshire Keep can you make the stone walls around the flag area maybe 1-2 meters higher? People have found ways to jump over them that are on offense.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Zerran on July 06, 2012, 08:37:18 am
Played Rochester a few times now. It's a fairly balanced map as long as both sides are organized. If defenders don't camp flag, and attackers are even slightly organized, it's an instant attacker win though. The back door could maybe use some more reinforcement.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 06, 2012, 04:30:11 pm
Caita, when you guys are on defense how is it?  Is offense able to contest the flag area at all or no?

A large organized group such as KUTT is going to win most maps, as they should - because siege maps are balanced for "normal pubby play" (which may include some clan mates here and there, but not like 20 on one team)

To test balance properly, it has to be observed in a normal pubby play situation - OR - there has to be large organized clans opposing each other, so that the sides are balanced.

I am going to be watching Rochester though and please continue to give feedback - it may need some minor changes as you mentioned.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 07, 2012, 07:17:50 am
POSSIBLE REVISIONS TO ROCHESTER FOR BALANCE :
(click to show/hide)

1 - adding second postern door to slow down attackers
2 - moving attack initial spawn back across bridge (bit longer run)
3 - moving 1 or 2 more defense spawns up to flag platform
4 - moving defense "spawn center" to flag platform
5 - rearranging other defense spawns

WHAT I NEED TO KNOW:

I need to know if two teams of largely pubs (no major clan influence atm) are balanced on this map or if offense is still too easy.
Title: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 07:11:11 am
Looking for feedback on this map (pictures below) - posting here because I don't think many people actually read the SCENE EDITING area of the forums.

Ok so - couple disclaimer notes first:

1 - Please only vote/respond if you have played this map (in rotation on EU2 and NA2 - Siege) a couple of times at least
2 - Try to be CONSTRUCTIVE.  If you hate the map, say why you think its not balanced and what would make it better
3 - Maps are hard to make (scene editor sucks), and hard to TEST (no where to test with large player base besides....well....the servers) so try to be not only constructive but informative - don't be vague
4 - The better feedback I and other mappers get (very few people in community doing this btw), the better balanced the maps can become


----------------------------------------

** A NOTE ABOUT BALANCE**
A properly balanced map will yield roughly even results (offense wins/defense wins) over many rounds.  This would mean either mainly pubs vs mainly pubs, or a large organized clan vs a large organized clan.  If a large organized clan is against mostly pubs, the large organized clan is LIKELY to win, and if the map is balanced, probably should most of the time.  This cannot be avoided, for hopefully obvious reasons.

Balancing a siege map is a delicate balance of run times from attacker spawns, defense spawn locations (not an exact science on that one), flag location, choke points, doors, terrain, etc.  Most siege maps contain a difficult front approach, and a rear approach in case front approach is too defended - but the rear approach usually is a longer run and/or more precarious.


----------------------------------------

ROCHESTER CASTLE (SIEGE)
(click to show/hide)

The outer walls of this map are meant to be breached rather easily, as the keep ascent will be difficult for offense and most of any round will consist of this.  The stairs stone are the primary approach to the flag, but the wooden stairs on the backside are meant as a secondary approach if necessary.

So, things to think about:

- Is this map too easy for offense to take?
- Is this map too easy for defense to defend?
- What are the things that make it one or the other in your opinion...

Things that can be done to balance:

- adjustment of spawn locations (keep in mind these are handled VERY oddly in scene editor and 100% control is NOT achievable)
- adding/removing doors
- making choke points more/less overcome
- etc


...Believe it or not, so far I've seen offense win this more than defense so far
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on July 09, 2012, 07:40:18 am
Guess I'll be first with not much to say.

Defense has an advantage considering most of the fighting takes place on a giant choke point.

The backdoor of the castle is pretty useless since I've seen it mostly used to bypass defenses or surprise attack, but this just leads to the back stair case, with defense at the very top. Long walk with little payoff.

The door under the big staircase is so misleading I spent like an hour chopping it down only to find a little room.

No matter what I say, it's excellently crafted.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 07:53:20 am
Thanks Froto, but vote!  :wink:
Oh, and Froto, sometimes defense spawns in that room...
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Tom Cruise on July 09, 2012, 08:50:50 am
Defense heavy map. Choke points are very hard to break through here, especially when its stairs. People with pokers, crushthrough, shieldwall, etc. can just stack at the top of the stairs and hold that, then on top of that, archers, xbowers, and throwers can get on the sides, rear, and have the high ground so they can just rain down an unholy cluster fuck of pin cushioning action! I would suggest trying to widen the areas up to the flag in order not to bottle neck everyone or to make some other form of access to the flag (that I do not know for I would need to study the map more). But overall a very detailed, and creative map!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Slamz on July 09, 2012, 09:29:10 am
I think the best siege maps are:

1) Mostly flat.  Ladders up to walls okay.  Steep hills or 200 foot climbs not ok.
2) Have 2 mediocre forward attack vectors, 1 mediocre rear attack vector and a gate relatively close to the flag that's an awesome attack vector if they can get it open and hold it.  This gives offense and defense two objectives worth fighting over instead of just one.
3) Have no breakable doors because the door bug is apparently unfixable.


This map, IMO, fails both 1 & 2.   It's too vertical, which is a pain for attackers and gives defensive ranged too much advantage.  There are 3 ways in to the flag but there's no secondary objective worth bothering with so it's just a boring flag camp.  The only way defense should lose this map is if they aren't fighting on the flag.

I'm not sure if it fails #3 because frankly all I do is rush straight to the flag and the rest of the map is just some terrain that's briefly in the way of the fight at the roof.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Tzar on July 09, 2012, 10:43:06 am
This map at least on eu have been a server killer...

Just last night we went from 63 players to 36 in 1.30 min playing this map

Dun care if you defender or attacker its boring and the spawnpoints / places to fight are trash..
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Teeth on July 09, 2012, 11:00:11 am
The map is pretty first of all.

When I played it there were like 5 HRE on, which could break through pretty easily, they won quite a few rounds while not being that many. I have played it once, but it seemed reasonably balanced then.

Yes the tower is a huge chokepoint, but there is atleast three ways to get to the top part of the keep. What you should not forget is that defenders do not at all always spawn on top. I have been spawned at the wall, which leaves me to find a staircase down, find a staircase up, walk all the way up and then I can defend the chokepoints. I think this balances the map, cause in the end there is not always that much defenders on top of the tower.

Although the far away spawning for defenders saves the balance, I hate it. In any siege map, I think the defenders should spawn reasonably close to the flag, so they can defend it. I hate those retarded castles where I spawn outside the castle as  defender.

I will wait till I play it some more with a full server before I vote
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: ArysOakheart on July 09, 2012, 11:01:53 am
Defense heavy map. Choke points are very hard to break through here, especially when its stairs. People with pokers, crushthrough, shieldwall, etc. can just stack at the top of the stairs and hold that, then on top of that, archers, xbowers, and throwers can get on the sides, rear, and have the high ground so they can just rain down an unholy cluster fuck of pin cushioning action! I would suggest trying to widen the areas up to the flag in order not to bottle neck everyone or to make some other form of access to the flag (that I do not know for I would need to study the map more). But overall a very detailed, and creative map!

(click to show/hide)

I can only hear that in your voice. Which makes it difficult to read. The sex blows my eardums.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Osiris on July 09, 2012, 01:06:58 pm
hey i went to college next to that place :D can i have wall breaker bonus? ^^
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Lech on July 09, 2012, 01:15:34 pm
This thread will be meaningless soon, so you should make maps for new siege, not old one.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Teeth on July 09, 2012, 01:27:09 pm
This thread will be meaningless soon, so you should make maps for new siege, not old one.
What is new siege?
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Fips on July 09, 2012, 01:35:23 pm
Horrible map.

2 ways to get to the flag (One splits up into to two other choices, but that is right before the flag), attackers need at least ~50 seconds to get to the flag and once you get there, you will face mauls, ranged and other cruel stuff getting ready to just fucking crush you. Just like Grunwalder Castle (Which is actually balanced, but i never play this one, too, because attackers have to walk a half-marathon to get to the flag) i never play this map and leave to battle.

Oh yeah, totally forgot that: Once a group of attackers make it to the flag area you will probably lose the castle, because of retarded defenders spawnpoints. Maps like that may be balanced at the statistics, but never fun to play.

I WANT SMALL SIEGE MAPS WITH A LOT OF ACTION! ._.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Lech on July 09, 2012, 01:43:13 pm
What is new siege?
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,34588.0.html
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 02:54:09 pm
Horrible map.

2 ways to get to the flag (One splits up into to two other choices, but that is right before the flag), attackers need at least ~50 seconds to get to the flag and once you get there, you will face mauls, ranged and other cruel stuff getting ready to just fucking crush you. Just like Grunwalder Castle (Which is actually balanced, but i never play this one, too, because attackers have to walk a half-marathon to get to the flag) i never play this map and leave to battle.

Oh yeah, totally forgot that: Once a group of attackers make it to the flag area you will probably lose the castle, because of retarded defenders spawnpoints. Maps like that may be balanced at the statistics, but never fun to play.

I WANT SMALL SIEGE MAPS WITH A LOT OF ACTION! ._.

you would like my other map then...
And I've seen players call each map in rotation "horrible"...so give better feedback on maps, make your own, or keep complaining
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 03:12:28 pm
note - defender spawns ARE NOT CONTROLLABLE.
...it works off a central point and tries to spawn them close to that -UNLESS- there are enemies nearby then it spawns you farther away.
Yes, i hate it too....take it up with taleworlds.

note 2 - read original post, give balance feedback/suggestions
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Calford on July 09, 2012, 04:46:14 pm
     So, I've played this map quite a bit, and I rather like it. To me, Rochester feels like an actual siege or at least it captures the feeling of what I imagine a siege would be like. Pardon me for saying, but that gets me freaking hard! Personally my only gripe about this map is that the offense spawn is a bit to far away from the walls at the start, and sometimes no one spawns near the siege tower so that point of access is delayed by quite a bit, also I recommend removing the back door since it makes the front ladders and siege tower almost unnecessary. (for the record it's quite a bit faster to get in through the siege tower and even quicker to hop up that front ladder.)

    Also, the whole hype about Rochester being defense favored is bullshit. I mean, you build castle, and I would certainly hope that the walls, stairways and fortifications are built in such away that the garrison is, dare I say, at an advantage!
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: _GTX_ on July 09, 2012, 04:50:36 pm
1 big uphill fight on those stars, it is retarded. U hit the stairs with strikes, and its in average just horrible to fight on.

Title: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 05:02:16 pm
Ok lets try this again...perhaps I like the abuse...

Looking for *BALANCE* feedback on this map (pictures below) - posting here because I don't think many people actually read the SCENE EDITING area of the forums.

Ok so - couple disclaimer notes first:

1 - Please only vote/respond if you have played this map (in rotation on EU2 and NA2 - Siege) a couple of times at least
2 - Try to be CONSTRUCTIVE.  If you hate the map, say why you think its not balanced and what would make it better
3 - Maps are hard to make (scene editor sucks), and hard to TEST (no where to test with large player base besides....well....the servers) so try to be not only constructive but informative - don't be vague
4 - The better feedback I and other mappers get (very few people in community doing this btw), the better balanced the maps can become



----------------------------------------

** A NOTE ABOUT BALANCE**
A properly balanced map will yield roughly even results (offense wins/defense wins) over many rounds.  This would mean either mainly pubs vs mainly pubs, or a large organized clan vs a large organized clan.  If a large organized clan is against mostly pubs, the large organized clan is LIKELY to win, and if the map is balanced, probably should most of the time.  This cannot be avoided, for hopefully obvious reasons.

Balancing a siege map is a delicate balance of run times from attacker spawns, defense spawn locations (not an exact science on that one), flag location, choke points, doors, terrain, etc.  Most siege maps contain a difficult front approach, and a rear approach in case front approach is too defended - but the rear approach usually is a longer run and/or more precarious.


----------------------------------------

DEVONSHIRE KEEP (SIEGE)
SCREENSHOTS...
(click to show/hide)

NOTES ABOUT MAP - Lower village is meant to be breached quickly, attackers run up and assault keep courtyard where flag is.  This usually results in a long and intense fight in courtyard and around flag.  Meant to bring players a lot of action.

So, things to think about:

- Is this map too easy for offense to take?
- Is this map too easy for defense to defend?
- What are the things that make it one or the other in your opinion...

Things that can be done to balance:

- adjustment of spawn locations (keep in mind that defense spawns are handled VERY oddly in scene editor and 100% control is NOT achievable)
- adding/removing doors
- making choke points more/less overcome
- etc

** So far I've seen results from this map be pretty even **
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Tzar on July 09, 2012, 05:03:20 pm
wtf ?

Its terrrible people all ready told you  :lol:
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 05:05:48 pm
Different map Tzar.

EDITED cause Tzar apologized.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Tzar on July 09, 2012, 05:29:41 pm
Im so sry.  :lol:
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 05:36:53 pm
Forgiven.  8-)

What are your balance feedback/suggestions for this one?
Besides "horrible map" that is  :wink:
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Tzar on July 09, 2012, 05:38:31 pm
This one is actually quite fun for both attackers an defenders.

Fast paced action all the way no boring forced ladder meat grind.. no walking for ages an spawnpoints seems somewhat balanced.

First round for the defenders is a nightmare like so many others map due to the freaking low hp doors but that can be said for alot maps.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: betard_lulz on July 09, 2012, 05:39:01 pm
Yea it's pretty bad.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 05:39:53 pm
To all : If you think defense has too big of an advantage - give thoughts on how that could be more balanced, if you have them.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Tzar on July 09, 2012, 05:44:10 pm
To all : If you think defense has too big of an advantage - give thoughts on how that could be more balanced, if you have them.

Lower the keep lol
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 05:46:07 pm
There you go! Constructive feedback without needless insults - I KNEW you guys could do it  :mrgreen:
A truly momentous moment in the crpg community.

No actually I have been considering that, partially why i made this thread
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Tzar on July 09, 2012, 05:47:28 pm
Sry i some time act like an idiot when given feedback
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 05:48:04 pm
Sry i some time act like an idiot when given feedback

You are joined in that by 99.5% of the cRPG community Tzar, its ok.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 05:55:58 pm
yeah tzar, the door bug is the fact that the door HP is determined by the server based on population, and when it decides that, most people have not loaded the map yet...so the door HP is put too low.  the solution would be a buffer round....people have suggested this and i think it will be fixed soon.

betard, what is pretty bad?  please elaborate
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Casimir on July 09, 2012, 06:04:03 pm
Where in Devon is this meant to be? :D
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Sir_Roin on July 09, 2012, 06:36:45 pm
Thanks for this thread, and thanks for this map. (I have to admit that I have ever checked out the scene editing area)

I have had a lot of fun playing on this map, and in essence it plays a lot like one of the old siege maps on the community server (I can't remember its name, but the tile set was yellow bricks and there was only one set of stairs to the top of the keep). At first glance this map looks heavily slanted towards the defenders, but once attackers get a foot hold on top of the keep and cut off reinforcements from using the stairs, the map turns out to be only slightly advantageous for defense. I think that the suggestion of moving the attackers spawns forwards is really all that is needed to even the playing field (that or lowering the entire keep structure, although that might be to much work).
Now for the things that I think are great about this map. First of all the flag area makes for a great fighting ground, the different levels, the sectioning of the area, and barriers (this area alone turns flag camping from a boring necessity into a fun task). I love the side rout you can take after climbing ¾ of the back door stairs (which involves some risky jumping) because it allow a couple of guys to sneak onto the flag area, while making it impossible to take a large force through this route. Lastly, this map looks spectacular; kudos on it's scenic quality.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 06:48:08 pm
...no clue, just seemed appropriate name for a motte & bailey keep

no real ties to RL geography
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 06:53:18 pm
Thanks Roin...

You mentioned moving attacker spawns closer.  Just want to get clarification because I kinda recently patch it to move the main bulk of the attack spawns closer to the siege tower side, which is pretty close to the walls/ladders, etc.

The attack spawn across the bridge is further yet, but I think most people now spawn by siege tower...
In fact, the first attack spawn ( entry point 32) is over by the siege tower so ALL attackers spawn there at round start.

Are you thinking spawns still need to be closer?
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 09:53:01 pm
bump - need more votes
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 09, 2012, 10:02:39 pm
bump - need more votes
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: robert_namo on July 09, 2012, 11:42:20 pm
I played on it once and it really seemed super balanced, most of the time defenders spawned near the flag, keep and wall around flag make it harder to attack but at the same time the attackers always fight next to or right outside flag. No room here for Rambos IMO. Prolly one of my favs.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Horst_Kurmoottaja on July 09, 2012, 11:50:56 pm
This is really good map. It's  pretty balanced but maybe slightly favoring defenders because those nice shooting places near the 2 doors.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on July 10, 2012, 12:17:59 am
I felt like offence were hammering us but that will probably change once people get an idea of how to defend the castle. So... I have no actual chritisismismisms :D
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: OpenPalm on July 10, 2012, 12:24:41 am
I think OFFENSE has a slight advantage.  The defense has to defend the stairs without making any mistakes, if the offense gets to the flag in any amount of numbers it's gg defense.  The spawns of defense are sometimes very far away from the flag and sometimes you just don't have nearly enough time to help defend it.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: agile on July 10, 2012, 01:08:36 am
Great job Elindor. This is one of my favorite maps on siege now. imo both sides have a change of winning the round and the design of the map is well done.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Lt_Anders on July 10, 2012, 01:28:53 am
Played map
Number of players: ~50
Opinion: Unfavorable

I can't give any kind of help as to why, but while playing I felt that things were lopsided so easily. There were clans online (small Kutt group and Some Asstralis). So clans could influence it or not. it was 1-0 start, then 1-2, then 3-2 for final attacker win. Things to note: to long to get ANYWHERE.

(Now I hope i got this right, this should be the one that's a stairway battle to the flag)
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Lt_Anders on July 10, 2012, 01:31:28 am
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,35557.msg540084.html#msg540084

Played right after that map. First round sucks. Period. Can't fix that. Maybe add a weak door on start. It might make the first round slow down enough for defense to mount a defense and every other round should easily be able to open the gate since D spawns way away from  front door.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Sir_Roin on July 10, 2012, 01:55:49 am
Oh sorry Elindor, I don't believe I have played on that version yet. I guess I'll be camping out the siege server till it comes around on the rotation.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: OpenPalm on July 10, 2012, 02:12:12 am
Also, I love this map, I upvote it when I play it.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Elindor on July 10, 2012, 02:24:28 am
Unfortunately there are no "weak doors", if there were I would most certainly have used one :(

Can't set HP of doors until new siege mode comes out...


----

Door bug first round is because door HP for map is determined by population upon start of round, but first round people are still loading in so it assumes too few people and therefore low door HP.  To fix it many have suggested a "warm up round".  I think Ozin is working on this.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Calford on July 10, 2012, 02:27:23 am
Well, My only grip is the lack of tall towers :lol:. But besides that, I feel that Rochester's most interesting feature is how vertical it is in contrast to all the other Castles in the rotation I feel like some people don't share my fascination, so I suggest that there could be a large room inside Rochester, at about the mid-level or so to allow the free form combat, maybe that would relieve that congested feeling of pushing up a stairway.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 10, 2012, 02:30:26 am
it was 1-0 start, then 1-2, then 3-2 for final attacker win.

3 attacker wins
2 defender wins

thats a pretty balanced result ;)

Things to note: to long to get ANYWHERE.

I time out runs on my maps - because I know people hate those. 
The ones on this map are no worse, if not shorter, than most maps in rotation. 
Lowering the keep and moving some defense spawns inward would reduce this overall though, and is something I am considering.

** Currently it seems that the result is most people think the map favors defense a bit, so lowering the keep some may change that and reduce run times all around.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Zerran on July 10, 2012, 02:58:07 am
It really depends on how organized defense is.

Unorganized defense: Easy attacker win.

Organized Defense: Almost impossible for attackers to win.

This changes little regardless of attacker organization.

Lowering the keep a little is a good step, though I would also recommend making the backdoor more reinforced, but more useful for attackers once it's breached. (Make the back of the top of the keep less defensible.)
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Zerran on July 10, 2012, 03:00:12 am
I haven't played this enough to really judge it, but it SEEMS pretty balanced.

Either way it's a really fun map (one of my favorites on siege right now).
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on July 10, 2012, 03:08:43 am
Pretty balanced.
The only thing I hate is being on one of them baskets at the flag and some guy come loljumpslashing me. Maybe they can be small palisades that people and hit over?
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Elindor on July 10, 2012, 04:09:38 am
Yeah Tanken informed me people could jump into the flag area in certain places...

I may fix this but I may be ok with it since jumping puts you at a disadvantage when you land.  We'll see.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 10, 2012, 04:48:02 am
I got some threads going in general discussion on balance of current maps, but here's a final look at the monastery I want you mappers to let me know your thoughts on balance.

HIMMELSBERG MONASTERY

A monastery set high in a snowy mountain range.  Attackers cross a short bridge and attack main gates of monastery (there is also a staircase on the left of the main gate where they can try to attack as well but could be highly defended).  Once through, they come into a somewhat defensible courtyard (main courtyard) and then must fight up onto a second smaller courtyard (second courtyard), and finally through some doors that are open, but only slightly ajar - making a chokepoint for defenders to hold.  Once inside the sanctuary, the attackers come to the flag, but there are many places for ranged defenders to slow them down.

If the attack on the main gates is not going well, there is also a tunnel way around the right side from the main gates.  This tunnel is quite a long run and has a door that has to be broken, but it comes out at a switchback staircase that leads attackers up to the top of the sanctuary.  But the flag is on the ground floor of the sanctuary, so any attackers that went this route would have to then traverse down a ladder and down stairs to the flag. 

:: SCREENSHOTS ::
(click to show/hide)

Would love some thoughts and feedback on balance before submitting!

Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Gricks on July 10, 2012, 04:56:40 am
backdoor on the map is pretty much useless. You have half the team spawning on your way to the flag from the backdoor.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Branches on July 10, 2012, 10:05:31 am
Your very talented at making interesting terrain. Every time I try to make a kewl
landscape I go overboard or something and make it look a bit ridiculous. Yours
always appear natural yet unique(I was also a big fan of the outlying terrain on
Rochester Castle).


OKAY! So here are some of my initial thoughts, but I am by no means a master
at this. ^^
======================================================
-You may have done this already but I would make certain that the narrow
 corner to the left of the gate(the one attackers would walk around to get to
 the left side door) is scale-able or something. I just see people fighting there
 and accidentally falling down with possibly no way back up, as it looks sorta
 steep. I'd hate to mess with your nice mountain though ^^

-I was initially concerned about the number of choke-points, but upon further
 inspection it seems that there are alternate routes in place to circumvent
 all of these. So no immediate worries there!

-The only other thing that comes to mind is the large number of accessible
 rooftops for archers(primarily in the main courtyard area). This coupled with
 the relative lack of cover in this area could make it difficult for attackers to
 deal with an archer-heavy defending team. The problem is compounded by
 the fact that defending archers have access to rooftops all around the
 perimeter of the courtyard. So attackers could be taking a lot of
 multi-directional fire with no solid cover and no readily available escape.
 Dunno, could be an issue ^^
======================================================

Hope that helped at least a little bit, and nice work! Your doing a great
service for the community!
 
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jacko on July 10, 2012, 10:26:34 am
How long is the run time for attackers, main route? Siege is all about balancing the time it takes for attackers to reach the flag versus choke points. All successful siege map follow the same pattern, because that's the only one the game mode allows.

Looks good otherwise. Hard to give constructive feedback without seeing it in action.

Minor cosmetic issues: I'd advice you to soften up the snow on the mountains (brush  size 4, low hardness/weight, for example). "Fade the edges" with snow. You could also make the mountains less smooth, at least the parts that sticking out from the snow. Use a small brush, size 2-3 and raise the terrain gently, it will make the landscape much more alive.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 10, 2012, 04:08:55 pm
Jacko, yeah that is something I try to keep in mind for both balance and gameplay enjoyment reasons. 

I don't like people to have to run too far without action in siege because I know people don't like that (or a lot of uphill) but at the same time some run is necessary sometimes as to not have offense overwhelm the defense timers too easily.

That being said -  the main assault path unhindered (doors open no enemies etc) is 48 seconds, 22 seconds to the main gate.
Are you concerned that might be too short or too long?

The run around the back on the left side through the tunnel and up to the top of the sanctuary and down to the flag is quite a run...think ~ 1:45.  But that is meant to be that way - something an attacker may only do once or twice in a round if necessary.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jacko on July 10, 2012, 04:29:06 pm
The numbers sounds right. Should work fine.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 10, 2012, 05:43:53 pm
Thanks for feedback.  Caita, if I lower the keep, the back door will already be more effective once breached, and I will probably add a second door there.

Keep coming with the feedback/voting. 

Gonna let it go for a couple days more and then probably work on lowering keep, adjusting defense spawns slightly, etc. 
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: Elindor on July 10, 2012, 05:45:40 pm
Assuming you are talking about the stairs that go into the back of the keep?  That is mostly a novelty for offense, if you get in there you can take out a couple archers that are poised on top of the battlements overlooking the flag area.  Also if you go through the keep you can come out into flag area through the keep door - which would bring you out a shieldwall if defense was holding the chokepoint too securely. 

Its a secondary route if needed...not supposed to be ideal.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: MazrimX on July 10, 2012, 11:59:34 pm
Great job Elindor... the only thing that irritates me are the extra spikes out front and on the way in. (spikes just irritate me in general, but maybe because i always end up as a rag doll on them :p)
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Devonshire Keep
Post by: genric on July 11, 2012, 12:15:35 am
Strangely this map doesn't seem to come up for me very often. Being new many of the people were just kind of exploring and looking around at what was in it and all that the last time I played. But it was very straight forward and was not complicated at all but had turns and twists so you could have many engagements all over the map. The flag is always a massive war zone with swords and arrows going everywhere so it makes things pretty intense.
I feel overall the defense might have a slight advantage because of the number of archer spots and high ground advantage the defense has but that is by no means a problem for the map because counter archery and the spawn times even it out making this possibly one of the best maps yet.
Good job :)
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: genric on July 11, 2012, 12:46:56 am
This map is upsetting to me. For the defense you are on the huge tower and being anywhere else but at the top has no advantage and there seems to be very limited cover for archer and what really helps the defense is good archers weakening the enemy. But defense archers seem to get picked off pretty easily due to lack of cover at the top and once a couple defenders die they are on the farthest wall imaginable from the flag and have to fight the offense all the way up and if the defenders lose too many at the top they lose it seems to be nearly impossible to regain the flag once lost.

To fix? Honestly I'm not too sure maybe have a couple more walls at the top with murder holes that the friendly archers can shoot through with more security and not face total annihilation? Maybe have a few more spawns up at the top to possibly increase the chance to get reinforcements because that 33 second wait time is MURDER when you are spawning as far away as the offense.

So it seems many people have very different opinions on this map and I feel it's just not my type of map. Your other new map is really cool and thats generally the types of maps I like. The siege map with the ships on the beach is a really cool map very fast paced.
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 12, 2012, 08:03:24 pm
ok, lets see if this helps...
new version has been submitted and should see these changes in game in next couple days

==============
REVISIONS TO ROCHESTER CASTLE
==============


V1.4 - ON 7/12/2012   

MANY SMALL CHANGES for GAMEPLAY and BALANCE
- lowered entire keep structure  for overall gameplay enchancement/balance
- altered buildings and added stairs in courtyard to allow more access from walls down to courtyard without dmg
- added moveable siege ladders from walls to sides of keep structure, allowing bypassing of certain parts of the ascent
- added additional postern door (2 now)
- revised some defensive spawnpoints for better access to stairways and courtyard access
- MOVED DEFENSE SPAWN CENTER (Entry Point 0) to top of keep, center of castle
- Moved attacker spawns across bridge closer to castle
Title: Re: SIEGE MAP *BALANCE* FEEDBACK - Rochester Castle
Post by: Elindor on July 12, 2012, 09:01:33 pm
POLL HAS BEEN WIPED SINCE NEW VERSION IS NOW (OR SOON) UP.
NEW POLL IS UP.

If you respond now please have played the old version and the new version  8-)

Hopefully the changes increase gameplay value by giving better access to the keep/flag all around.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 15, 2012, 08:19:08 am
Anyone seen the monastery map in game yet and had any feedback?

I saw it once on EU2 (not sure its on NA2 yet)...defense actually won 3x that time, but that could be situational.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 09:41:58 am
Ok mappers (or anyone else who may happen to come into scene editing on accident) :)

Looking for feedback on 2 things:

1 - ROCHESTER CHANGES
- keep is now lower
- defense spawn center is at keep now (Defense was complaining about distant spawns)
- there are now more ways down into courtyard from walls
- there are not 2 ladders on walls that lead to the keep structure, bypassing some of the defenses (and can also get defense that spawn on walls to flag area faster)
- postern now has 2 doors

2 - HIMMELSBERG MONASTERY
- i think defense MAY have some advantage here, but hard to tell right now.
- people may not know about switchback stairs to top of sanctuary (where flag is)
- if i need to balance it i will probably give better access from top of sanctuary down to flag, widen the door opening a bit, and maybe move some defender spawns
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 05:58:49 pm
here are screens of the new ladders on Rochester...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jarlek on July 18, 2012, 10:33:32 pm
here are screens of the new ladders on Rochester...
(click to show/hide)
Much better.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 18, 2012, 10:48:26 pm
Thanks for feedback Zapper - have you been able to play on this new version?  What were your thoughts?

Trying to decide if it needs anymore tweaks or if I should let it sit for a while...
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jarlek on July 18, 2012, 11:11:22 pm
Thanks for feedback Zapper - have you been able to play on this new version?  What were your thoughts?

Trying to decide if it needs anymore tweaks or if I should let it sit for a while...
Haven't tried it, but it opens up some much needed secondary routes for attackers. I'm guessing the top is just as easily held, but now it should be both faster to get there and more ways to circumvent some defenders.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 23, 2012, 07:10:42 pm
Ok, small update to the monastery...

HIMMELSBERG MONASTERY (1.1)  7/23/2012
All pretty minor changes overall since I think this one was mostly balanced, but should overall give offense a slightly better chance.

- made main door opening into sanctuary (where flag is) slightly WIDER
- increased visibility and access from the main courtyard to the SIDE STAIRS (leads to roof of sanctuary)
- widened overhang platforms on second story of sanctuary to allow for easy descent from roof
- revised and slightly minimized the pews in the sanctuary to allow for better combat flow
- removed a number of candles and other particle creating objects to help reduce any FPS lag that may have been present
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on August 02, 2012, 09:06:43 am
Updating Rochester soon :

- lowering keep structure ** A LOT **
- adding more stone stair access routes to flag area
- keep should be more of a combat zone now than a "climbing zone"

Updating Himmelsberg soon :

- widening doorway into sanctuary more
- adding a second access route to roof on front side of sanctuary
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on August 03, 2012, 03:19:57 am
==============
UPDATE TO : ROCHESTER CASTLE
==============


V1.5 - ON 8/02/2012   

Some pretty major changes to gameplay
- Lowered keep structure A LOT!
- Made back access to flag area same as front
- Made flag area MUCH bigger for better fighting area
- Moved many defense spawn points to flag platform for balancing with new changes
Title: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Elindor on August 03, 2012, 03:22:48 am
==============
UPDATE TO : ROCHESTER CASTLE
==============


V1.5 - ON 8/02/2012
THIS WILL TAKE A BIT OF TIME TO GET ONTO SERVER and then server has to be restarted before changes are in game...

Some pretty major changes to gameplay
- Lowered keep structure A LOT!
- Made back access to flag area same as front
- Made flag area MUCH bigger for better fighting area
- Moved many defense spawn points to flag platform for balancing with new changes

Hopefully the gameplay will be more fun now :)

Here are some screens of new keep area...
(click to show/hide)


----

cmp feel free to move this after a while  :wink:
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: snipercapt on August 03, 2012, 05:51:48 am
Looks pretty good but I have never seen the original map so I don't know anything  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Xeen on August 03, 2012, 08:09:32 am
It looks awesome Elindor!  Can't wait to try it out.
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Elindor on August 03, 2012, 05:55:08 pm
Thanks Xeen.

To everyone - let me know if this is now too easy for offense.  Many defense spawn points have been moved to flag area to help try to compensate for new structure (defense spawns are not an exact science though - as Ive posted about before)
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Anal Bleeding on August 03, 2012, 06:10:46 pm
Kutt will find a way to exploit it.
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: _Tak_ on August 04, 2012, 10:00:27 pm
This Rochester castle is just awlful, alot of Eu players complain its a shit map on server. The defenders get a MASSIVE advantage over attackers, everytime when we are playing that map defenders ALWAYS win. It takes too long for attackers to reach the flag, and it's a map where it is completely unplayable for Cav. 50% of maps are at least playable for cav on siege. While attackers have to reach the flag, defenders will try to stop them, when the attackers killed them all, when the attackers reach the flag they respawn next to them. It's just a lame map, design for defenders to win. So lame
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Elindor on August 06, 2012, 03:48:41 pm
Thanks for your input.  You may have missed this is a thread about its upcoming changes which should make it better...not it's previous state - which i admit was too much vertical for fun gameplay.  Did you even look at the new screens?

Also, most siege maps are not *meant* for cav (which makes sense)....but this one will be less unfriendly to them now because since the tower is so much lower...the courtyard will be more important.

Changes should be on servers soon.  once servers are restarted.
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Elindor on August 07, 2012, 03:56:46 pm
This change is live on NA2 now at least....saw it last night.

Any initial thoughts are welcome FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE PLAYED ON NEW VERSION (screenshots in original post)  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Delson on August 07, 2012, 04:44:17 pm
I played on it the other day and i think it is a lot more balanced than before.  :D
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Elindor on August 08, 2012, 06:03:08 am
bump
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Zerran on August 08, 2012, 07:25:38 am
Much more fun than it used to be, I approve. Still haven't played it enough without the KUTT horde to say whether it's more balanced or not though.  :lol:
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Elindor on August 08, 2012, 04:16:13 pm
Still haven't played it enough without the KUTT horde to say whether it's more balanced or not though.  :lol:

LOL...yeah kinda throws things off.
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Anal Bleeding on August 08, 2012, 11:40:55 pm
i ran into one building and it said something like Neutral Weaponsmith and it had a health bar like a destructible object. I killed it and it disappeared.
Is this part of the castle?
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Elindor on August 08, 2012, 11:46:07 pm
On this map or Devonshire?

I heard there was such a building on one of the two.  Take a screenshot if you can or describe the map and location of the building. 

If this is true i'll replace it, or leave it if destroying the building has not consequences to map balance.
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Zerran on August 09, 2012, 08:53:35 am
So, some things I noticed playing this today:

The gatehouse is absolutely vital for defense. With the gate open, attackers have a straight shot for the central keep. This is a good thing. "Camp flag" maps are boring and not fun.

The bad part, is that it's way too hard for defense to hold the gatehouse. With ladders right next to it on either side, defense has a constant stream of attackers coming from both sides attacking the gatehouse, and because the attackers come from both sides, there isn't any way for defense to reinforce the gatehouse if it starts to fall.

So in some way I think the gatehouse needs to be made more defensible for the defenders. Perhaps move the ladders so they're all on the side of the gatehouse with the siege tower, and add one of the big double doors on the gatehouse.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Para on August 09, 2012, 09:15:31 am
One thing I gotta say for the monastery map:

Please put railings or something on the bridge where the attackers spawn. Griefers kick players off of this thing all of the time and I've been having to deal with them constantly. I think if you just removed the bridge altogether and moved the attackers spawn to where the end of the bridge is, the map would also be more balanced. It's a very difficult map for attackers to win. Saving the attackers 5-7ish seconds of their run to the flag will help balance things out.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on August 09, 2012, 05:02:46 pm
Probably right Para...although is it hard for attackers to win when KUTT isnt on defense en masse?

I think I should definitely put railings on the bridge, perhaps I will spread the attacker spawns from where they are now, across the bridge, so there is a CHANCE of spawning closer.
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Elindor on August 09, 2012, 06:41:37 pm
Caita, this could be possible because the easy access to the gatehouse was put in originally to compensate for the very defensible center tower....but now that the tower is so much lower, etc, the gatehouse may need to be a bit harder to take.  Perhaps I could even REMOVE the ladder on the left side of the gatehouse (looking out), then defense has a smaller area of wall to defend (from siegetower to gatehouse).

I will try to keep my eye on this and see how I think defense vs offense is going in general.
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Ganner on August 09, 2012, 07:17:10 pm
This map is indeed ALOT more fun with the changes.  Much easier to take the castle if the defending team is unaware.  It also shouldent take a flat out minute to run from attacker spawn to flag in the first place but thats fixed now.
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Anal Bleeding on August 09, 2012, 08:09:49 pm
oh yeah, the thing I saw was on the other map with the wooden spikes around the flag.
what does the weaponsmith thing do anyway?
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Digglez on August 09, 2012, 08:19:55 pm
Putting defensive spawns so close to flag (literally 3-5ft away) makes for some really stupid gameplay on monastery
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Elindor on August 09, 2012, 09:52:13 pm
Its actually a prop building that I placed  there without knowing it was a prop....oops  :oops:  But, destroying it doesn't change the map at all because of its placement so Im not too worried about it for now.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on August 09, 2012, 10:52:08 pm
hmm...defense spawn mostly upstairs in the sanctuary and a couple behind the altar, either way its somewhat more than 3-5 ft from flag, and people either have to run around or jump down to get to the flag.  But yes, it does make for intense combat at the flag....I have heard plenty of positive comments about this factor, and no negative comments about it (till now).

---------------------------

Anyhow posted an update just now, so should be up soon - added railings to the bridge on monastery and moved spawns forward a bit.  Also made roof access and descent a BIT easier.
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Moncho on August 13, 2012, 09:43:30 am
I like this map, however, I think there are far too many defender spawns on the keep, I have seen times when the attackers got en masse (10+) to the flag and the defenders managed to push them away by mere numbers, people just kept respawning faster than they could be killed (we had a couple of shielders just tanking, a knitting machine, a few maulers, a pretty good team, but I think it could be improved.
The problem is, even with the gate open since minute 1, either attackers did not know it or just because from the gate there is only one option for most players (once they are charging straight ahead they just dont look at other possibilities. A way to fix this could be to rotate the keep 30-60 degrees so that when coming in you haveto choose right or left, that way attackers would naturally split forcing defenders to look at both places better and making it easier to surprise. This way with a couple shielders, pikers and a maul or two (and the greys, HRE usually have a setup of this kind at worst), that entrance is just too defendable, need other easy ways in imo. Maybe even add another one, would be nice to be able to climb from the inside for example.

I must say I love the roof BackDoor, since it is so shootable for the defenders, making it close to suicide to attack there, while the defenders are in position to be hit by not too long melee weapons, great job with that one and the map in general.
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Elindor on August 13, 2012, 06:17:47 pm
Good feedback, I will continue watching this one for balance. 

One thing to factor in, is was the win due to a large clan on one side not counterbalanced by a large clan on the other team?  If so, the map can't compensate for that, for obvious reasons.

with balanced teams...
a) if defense gets distracted or too strung out, offense should win
b) if offense doesn't group up for decently coordinated pushes defense should win

but again i will watch this map and good ideas!
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Moncho on August 13, 2012, 08:26:34 pm
This time in particular, it was with greys on one side and a comparable number of HREs in the other (about 6-8, maybe 2-3 of other clans, not sure), and it was 3-0 for defenders. Usually with those numbers, its 2-3 most maps.

The method of defence was purely camp the flag, forget even the gatehouse.
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Elindor on September 06, 2012, 08:15:11 am
Hmm....yeah Im still watching this map.
Title: Rochester Castle 1.5
Post by: Kafein on September 15, 2012, 05:14:55 pm
Played it yesterday, it seems a little too easy to defend. After one or two minutes the attackers can flow at max speed to the flag, but defenders spawn so close the fight just goes on for the whole round, sometimes at the flag, sometimes in the stairs that the attackers use to go to the flag.
Title: Re: Rochester Castle 1.5
Post by: Elindor on September 15, 2012, 07:34:10 pm
Good feedback Kafein...

This map has had some changes over time, and has gotten a LOT more balanced but it might still need a bit more and I have been giving it some time before doing any more changes. 

The changes I might make would be to add an interactive ladder up to the flag area on the side where the siege tower comes in.  That will lead attackers up to a tower that is adjacent to the flag platform, and I would probably place a destructable door there.

In all that would give a way to the flag on all 4 sides of the flag platform, and make defenders have to focus on another area, and give offense a better "foothold". 

Again, thanks for good feedback.

---

In my sig is a link to my maps thread.  If you have good feedback on the other 2 as well please let me know. 
Maps, imho, are an ongoing process as far as balancing...since there is no real way to test balance before throwing it up on the servers.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on September 15, 2012, 07:41:47 pm
Thinking of a couple minor adjustments to each map soon for further balancing:

ROCHESTER - could be too easily defended.
thinking of adding an interactive ladder to the flag platform from the side where the siege tower comes in. 

DEVONSHIRE - could be too easily attacked.
thinking of moving some of the defense spawn points from up in the keep down into the flag courtyard area.

HIMMELSBERG - thinking about adding a roof to the sanctuary with a destructable door down to get in, but more access to the roof from the front.  if this is done, may also may also add walls around the upper level of the sanctuary where many defenders spawn to make it harder to spawn and jump down to the flag

Feedback welcome if you know these maps and have played on them recently.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Tanken on September 15, 2012, 08:31:03 pm
The first two are great, the Monastery as Para said just needs the offense spawn fixed. Try it closer for a week and see how the results go. As of right now it's a long ass haul to the flag, and recently the spawns on that bridge have caused people to fall over the sides at the very beginning and be killed due to the large drop and what's worse is anyone next to them that spawns and survives, it says that they killed the person. Was happening to someone the other day.

Edit: Devonshire could do with some spawns in the courtyard, but just a few.
Title: Re: Siege Map Update - ROCHESTER CASTLE
Post by: Jarlek on September 16, 2012, 03:08:04 pm
oh yeah, the thing I saw was on the other map with the wooden spikes around the flag.
what does the weaponsmith thing do anyway?
The weaponsmith building is one of the buildings you could make in the Stronghold gamemode. All buildings and walls where destroyable there. The purpose of the weaponsmith was to give a discount on the resource cost of (melee) weapons you spawn with.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on September 17, 2012, 03:51:40 am
Oh yeah, i'll remove that weaponsmith building...didnt know it would do that :)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jarlek on September 17, 2012, 12:12:07 pm
Oh yeah, i'll remove that weaponsmith building...didnt know it would do that :)
It doesn't do anything in non-stronghold gamemodes, since that's the only mode that uses resources. It's just a building you can destroy :P
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on September 17, 2012, 09:09:03 pm
It's just a building you can destroy :P

Which, is kinda fun :)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on September 18, 2012, 07:08:49 pm
ROCHESTER CASTLE UPDATE - V 1.6

- Added ladder up to flag platform (on side where siege tower comes in)
- Added destructable door from where new ladder comes up to flag area
- Widened stairways on front and back of flat platform for more access
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Dalfador on October 21, 2012, 06:28:40 am
Your maps are BAD


And you should feel BAD
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on October 21, 2012, 08:23:15 am
Your maps are BAD


And you should feel BAD

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: genric on October 21, 2012, 05:51:59 pm
he is spreading to other threads. He might be your weird lucky growth but you know what must be done...  :(
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: OpenPalm on October 21, 2012, 07:50:30 pm
Fungicide?
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on October 21, 2012, 10:16:43 pm
he is spreading to other threads. He might be your weird lucky growth but you know what must be done...  :(

Yeah seriously Dalf stop trolling around  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jacko on October 21, 2012, 11:02:25 pm
Yeah I don't know what this is about, but keep it clean and constructive. Only warning.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: genric on October 21, 2012, 11:21:34 pm
Here is a legit question when are the maps going to be updated and new maps put into siege? It seems like we only play on like 6 maps and it seems to only cycle the same 3 every other day. I like the maps but it's getting tiring having so few and them not being updated lately with fixes.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: ICEMAN1779 on October 22, 2012, 01:08:28 am
Here is a legit question when are the maps going to be updated and new maps put into siege? It seems like we only play on like 6 maps and it seems to only cycle the same 3 every other day. I like the maps but it's getting tiring having so few and them not being updated lately with fixes.

Give anuther 3 to 4 months. :lol:
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on November 05, 2012, 06:43:32 pm
Give anuther 3 to 4 months. :lol:

Now ICEMAN's getting it  :wink:
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on January 15, 2013, 05:11:27 pm
Had a map in the works for a while that is similar to Sea Raid siege map (one of the most popular ones).

Perhaps I'll finish it and put it up here....although I think the delay time for getting stuff actually in game is pretty significant still :(
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on June 05, 2013, 09:23:03 pm
I should make a new map...

Are they still adding new maps into rotation?
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Fips on June 05, 2013, 10:07:00 pm
I should make a new map...

Are they still adding new maps into rotation?

I wouldn't bother. Last patch didn't bring any updates, even though there should be A LOT.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on July 22, 2013, 10:03:42 pm
Will be working on my new map now that we have SCENE MANAGERS! :) 

Thinking a trade hub at a crossroads...a little trade town.

Maybe could do one version for siege and alter it for battle.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Viriathus on July 23, 2013, 12:17:37 am
this is exciting!
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Fips on August 01, 2013, 10:52:57 pm
Nothing wrong with those ballistae =P

It's really just placing the prop at a proper place, hehe.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on August 01, 2013, 10:54:08 pm
Nothing wrong with those ballistae =P

It's really just placing the prop at a proper place, hehe.

Oh you just checked them out?  K thanks.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Adalwulf on August 03, 2013, 06:23:15 am
plz remove the helms deep map from NA_2. I joined 2 maps earlier and finally we had 15 players on and then helms deep came into rotation. Nobody wants to run 2 minutes to fight a small battle. Also map voting on NA_2 should always be enabled. If we have no admin and a map like that pops up it instantly kills the population. Not saying your map is shit fips but with only 15 players it's not a good pick for NA siege. On EU_2 we always ahve a constant 70 players minimum till midnight EU time. That doens't happen here ever.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Fips on August 03, 2013, 10:10:44 am
plz remove the helms deep map from NA_2. I joined 2 maps earlier and finally we had 15 players on and then helms deep came into rotation. Nobody wants to run 2 minutes to fight a small battle. Also map voting on NA_2 should always be enabled. If we have no admin and a map like that pops up it instantly kills the population. Not saying your map is shit fips but with only 15 players it's not a good pick for NA siege. On EU_2 we always ahve a constant 70 players minimum till midnight EU time. That doens't happen here ever.

Wrong thread, derp. In the next version spawns are all as close as you'd expect it from other castles. And we haven't had time to discuss which maps should be out of NA2, so yeah. Patience.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Adalwulf on August 03, 2013, 06:41:12 pm
Wrong thread, derp. In the next version spawns are all as close as you'd expect it from other castles. And we haven't had time to discuss which maps should be out of NA2, so yeah. Patience.

lol was drunk so yeah big derp.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on August 03, 2013, 07:14:43 pm
Adawulf, you poon.

But yeah, that helms deep version on NA2 can be trouble...sometimes its fine but other the times the pop is just too low :(
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Viriathus on August 10, 2013, 10:38:47 am
Perfect map Elindor, nice work.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on August 11, 2013, 01:56:34 pm
Perfect map Elindor, nice work.

Thanks Afonsoserro!

I hope it works out well...
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Fips on August 11, 2013, 01:58:02 pm
No idea how i missed that, but Rochester now has a stairway going through the wall where you put the ballista xd

Also, ballistae don't move 360° when you don't put any restrictions, it's only like 270°, which makes most of attackers ballistas (As the one on rochester) useless. I asked ozin to fix it, but for now we should move them so attackers can actually use them. Although it might look weird when the ballista faces the inside of the castle, hehe.

And Himmelsburg needs different def spawns now. The chokepoint got smaller and def spawns a little too close to the flag imo. Maybe just move more on top of the church or whatever, you'll think of something =D
And the attackers spawns are too far away now, too. It feels almost uncapturable now.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on August 11, 2013, 07:16:50 pm
K, I will look into these two.

Again, on NA Himmelsberg is probably perfect now lol.

I had to move attack spawns across the bridge to avoid the weird issue I was having before, its really only like 20m farther out...alternative is I can spawn attack on the close side of the bridge...

I can move some defender spawns away so it takes longer to get to the flag.

I will look into the balistae at Rochester.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Fips on August 11, 2013, 07:39:25 pm
Nah, the initial spawn (32) is okay, just don't move all of them at the beginning of the bridge.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jarold on August 12, 2013, 07:19:56 pm
I was playing Himmelsberg and that door looks a little out of whack, imo. I just think it looks a bit weird there. Maybe you could've used that rectangular sally door. ( was it one of the castle_f_sally_doors? ). Other wise though I love the new update.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on August 12, 2013, 10:50:55 pm
I was playing Himmelsberg and that door looks a little out of whack, imo. I just think it looks a bit weird there. Maybe you could've used that rectangular sally door. ( was it one of the castle_f_sally_doors? ). Other wise though I love the new update.

I hear ya Jarold.  I can always replace it with the other door.

Do you like it in terms of balance on NA2?  I am trying to get a picture of its balance now on NA2 and EU2...
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on August 12, 2013, 10:51:57 pm
Also curious what you  guys think about my new submission : Dun Bhirum

http://forum.meleegaming.com/scene-editing/siege-map-submissions-for-official-servers-2-0/msg839725/#msg839725
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jarold on August 12, 2013, 11:20:10 pm
I was only level 14 but attack seemed to still win out. I think the map is as balanced as it can get, it was just the amount of skilled players on the Attackers that day I guess. But defense definitely has a fair chance of winning now.

Since you asked for feedback on your new map submission..... I really like the style of your new map. It makes me want to try my hand at a siege map that isn't really a fortress. It is also very pleasing to the eye. I have no idea how well defense will do on this map though. I can't really get a feel of it in terms of size, but I would guess it looks small. Good for NA but the attackers might have an advantage when the doors come down and the defense can't spawn quick enough. But I guess that's what is supposed to happen if defense fails to protect the choke points and gate house.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on August 13, 2013, 07:05:11 am
Yeah, it should play out similarly to Sea Raid - which usually is one people like and is relatively balanced....it's all about that gate winch.

I love feedback on any of my maps - from NA or EU players. 
It is hard to balance maps for all situations but I try to do my best.

Keep me posted on thoughts on any of my maps as you see them come up.

Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on August 29, 2013, 05:57:50 pm
Can't wait to see how Dun Bhirum plays out...and the new dynamic spawn timers in siege!!
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Teeth on September 01, 2013, 05:49:19 pm
Heyo, checked out Dun Bhirum. First of all, nice unusual layout and class job on the texturing and surroundings. Nothing wrong with it really. There are a few pebble texture errors, as in random high weight slabs pieces of pebble, but I am very familiar with those so can't ask you to try to fix them. The door on the left side when attacker is a little too small for the doorway, there is light glinting past it on 3 sides. Really just nitpicking though.

I am slightly worried about balance. It took me 30 seconds to walk to the winch when the doors fall with the quite slow hosting character and 35 seconds to the flag. 35 seconds to the flag is good, if it weren't that the defenders probably spawn further away than 5 seconds from the flag on average. Although defenders do spawn close to the route that the attackers have to take to get to the flag, so they might slow them down, but it will be very hard for any far away spawners to save the flag when it is already in peril. Now I get that the point is that losing the winch makes it hard for defenders, but the winch is quite hard to hold for a prolonged time if you ask me. Especially because the backway proves a danger from the back at all times.

Although I have no idea what the corresponding walk timers are for Sea Raid, I could imagine a bit longer with the ladders, the thing is that there is a long narrow street up to the flag. This street causes these intense late round fights where if the defenders kick ass, they can still win. Relatively few defenders can stop the quick stream of attackers. It is a lot more open for your map, making an opened gate much more a game of numbers then in Sea Raid. A game which I fear attackers will win, as I think the average cRPG character is a little faster than 0 agi, 0 athl nude. Defenders simply won't be able to keep up with the attackers spawning.

This is of course my uneducated opinion from walking around in the map with which you might disagree, I am willing to give the map a try anyhow, but I think balance would benefit from either a longer way to either the flag or the winch, or harder chokepoints to either the flag or the winch. Fill some of the streets with more crud, prevent the attackers from being able to push at a crazy rate. It is fine if an opened gate means almost a certain loss for the defenders, as long as the winch is very defensible. It is also fine if the winch gets opened early which opens a straight route to the flag, as long as this route is defensible. It is up to you, but in the grand scheme it should be harder to attack.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on September 03, 2013, 02:45:01 am
Good review Teeth, you seemed to see everything I was trying to do.

Yeah, we'll see about the offense issue...it could be TOO quick and open to the flag after the winch is lost...but I am hoping that the chokepoint at the second (open) gate and the chokepoints onto the flag platform provide some places for defense to slow them down.

We'll see....if it ends up being too easy for offense I can clutter it up more like you suggested.

I will take a look at it and perhaps add more before the patch - any idea when this might go live?
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Fips on October 20, 2013, 08:34:18 pm
Hey there, currently looking over all the siege maps again:
Devonshire Keep: Could you remove the destroyable building please? Also, a ladder to the keep would be nice, just pushing through the front is rather boring =P (Noone is using the backway is what i'm saying and a deployable ladder would probably change that and spice the map up again)
Himmelsberg: Edit the backdoor to a normal door please. The sally door takes too long to destroy and makes backway not a very good option. And i think you should move a few attackers spawnpoints towards the gate again (Not the initial one, though!). Imo it's still a little too easy too defend, maybe closer spawns will help with that.
Rochester was already fixed i see, nothing to add there.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Man of Steel on October 20, 2013, 08:54:45 pm
i like playing on your maps gj
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jona on October 22, 2013, 11:10:23 pm
Hey there, currently looking over all the siege maps again:
Devonshire Keep: Could you remove the destroyable building please? Also, a ladder to the keep would be nice, just pushing through the front is rather boring =P (Noone is using the backway is what i'm saying and a deployable ladder would probably change that and spice the map up again)

Keep that destructable building! It serves no purpose so why not just leave it as some nice interactive scenery? Not to mention it provides infinite lols when some noob just sees a guy casually walk over to it and smash it in 1-2 hits then freaks the **** out.  :lol:

Also this is one of my favorite maps as defense... its actually defendable.

Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: San on October 23, 2013, 08:30:30 am
I really enjoy all of your maps (haven't played Dun Bhirum, however). When I log on and the map is Himmelsberg Monastery, I end up playing yet another hour. Keep it up!
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on November 08, 2013, 04:13:02 pm
I'll check them out Fips, and thanks for the feedback guys!

Looking for feedback on the new Dun Bhirum map - it should play similar to Sea Raid. (images on first post of this thread)
let me know as you play it how it works out.

I saw it the other night and considered making the archway to the inner courtyard more of a chokepoint, but then defense won all three rounds (good good fights though)...so I'll have to keep watching it.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Carthan on November 11, 2013, 07:02:38 pm
I never realized that you made these maps, but they are definitely some of the most enjoyable ones I have played.
Keep up the good work (Plz stay with us)

Also if you have some free time you may want to update the images for the castles (with the update and all) in the opening post.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Phew on November 11, 2013, 07:38:22 pm
Looking for feedback on the new Dun Bhirum map - it should play similar to Sea Raid. (images on first post of this thread)
let me know as you play it how it works out.

Played Dun Bhirum a few times, overall great fun. Only weird thing is that attackers can jump over one of the walls to the left as they approach, rendering all other ingress routes pointless. Maybe raise the wall a bit?
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jona on November 12, 2013, 05:59:04 am
Dun Bhirum isn't that bad, but it is a little too easy for defending ranged to just shoot fish in a barrel. They can camp that tower and all the attackers are out in a huge open area. Would be nice to have some cover or remove that tower. Usually ranged is only effective on the walls of a castle (to shoot and weaken enemies as the trickle in) and in rare cases they can camp a rooftop that is far from the flag... but this one is just too close in my opinion.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on November 13, 2013, 03:04:02 am
@ Phew - yeah I saw people jumping that...I will have to fix that.  Fortunately it actually does not ruin the flow of the map since it's still a decent run and doesn't bypass the second gateway. 

@ Jona - still seeing balance on that map (so far seen it mostly defended) but as I see how it pans out I will look at removing that tower or adding more entry ways to it or something.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jona on November 13, 2013, 05:07:24 am
By the way, if you made that new map where attackers spawn on a bridge and jump off of the left side into the water to get up a ladder/knock down a gate, we may need to revoke your map making privileges. Not gonna lie, that map has no flow and is complete trash. I've yet to see someone who likes it. 

Seeing how it is not listed here I will assume you didn't make it, and therefore I freely bash it, but in case you did... ummm... have a nice day!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Teeth on November 13, 2013, 04:46:49 pm
By the way, if you made that new map where attackers spawn on a bridge and jump off of the left side into the water to get up a ladder/knock down a gate, we may need to revoke your map making privileges. Not gonna lie, that map has no flow and is complete trash. I've yet to see someone who likes it. 

Seeing how it is not listed here I will assume you didn't make it, and therefore I freely bash it, but in case you did... ummm... have a nice day!  :mrgreen:
I made that map. Feedback can be given here

http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/battle-map-waning-cold/

I made it from an existing map intended for conquest so I had to jump through some hoops to make it work. Also I've had my head up my ass and made it too easy to attack from the front. Apart from that I don't see how it is that godawful, feel free to elaborate.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jarlek on November 13, 2013, 05:28:37 pm
I made that map. Feedback can be given here

http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/battle-map-waning-cold/

I made it from an existing map intended for conquest so I had to jump through some hoops to make it work. Also I've had my head up my ass and made it too easy to attack from the front. Apart from that I don't see how it is that godawful, feel free to elaborate.
I already explained to you why it's godawful.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Teeth on November 13, 2013, 05:59:37 pm
This is a different map.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on November 13, 2013, 08:32:05 pm
Well, this got awkward  :|

Jona I made the maps you see in the first post of this thread, no more, no less :)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jeade on November 14, 2013, 06:42:21 am
Commented on Dun Bhirum last night in game to Elindor but just wanted to post here and say that I loved it as an attacker.
I've had some walljumping experience in my day and found I could climb onto a handful of different houses (which probably isn't supposed to happen but whatever).
I thought it added something different to the stair climbing simulator that is typically NA2.
Totally a welcome change!

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Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on November 14, 2013, 03:40:33 pm
Thanks Jeade...

The wall hoping wasn't intentional, but im watching it to see if its a problem or not ultimately.

So far (and let me know if you see different), I've only seen people able to hop the initial wall and gain access to the first courtyard (where the gate winch is)...that is probably ok for balance, we'll see.

If they can jump into the SECOND courtyard, where the flag is, then that is a problem :)

Surprisingly, I've so far seen this map won mostly by defense...so watching to see what happens overall but that was not entirely expected.
Either way, what is is offering is a lot of combat.  People (including myself, woot) have been hitting 40+ kills on that map and what that tells me is that there is a LOT of combat going on - and not a lot of just running, breaking doors, etc....

...and that is my goal with my maps - Team Deathmatch!! (in a castle with a flag)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Phew on November 14, 2013, 08:30:58 pm
Thanks Jeade...

The wall hoping wasn't intentional, but im watching it to see if its a problem or not ultimately.

So far (and let me know if you see different), I've only seen people able to hop the initial wall and gain access to the first courtyard (where the gate winch is)...that is probably ok for balance, we'll see.

If they can jump into the SECOND courtyard, where the flag is, then that is a problem :)

Surprisingly, I've so far seen this map won mostly by defense...so watching to see what happens overall but that was not entirely expected.
Either way, what is is offering is a lot of combat.  People (including myself, woot) have been hitting 40+ kills on that map and what that tells me is that there is a LOT of combat going on - and not a lot of just running, breaking doors, etc....

...and that is my goal with my maps - Team Deathmatch!! (in a castle with a flag)

Yeah, every time I've played it, it's been a brutal deathmatch in the courtyard. The jump isn't a big balance issue, it just makes breaking the adjacent door pointless.

Defense usually wins every round after the first now on NA2 (except on the smallest maps, which O still usually win); it seems like the defender respawn timer change was a tad too aggressive. A minimum respawn timer of 22s might be better than 18s. Even better would be a separate respawn timer for each map, since on some maps (like godawful Hailes), it takes attackers upwards of a minute to just walk to the castle.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on November 14, 2013, 09:19:59 pm
Yeah, after the timer I might need to adjust the defense spawns a bit...will watch it for a couple weeks and see.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on January 07, 2014, 07:17:11 pm
Anyone seen Dun Bhirum in lately?  I haven't been on as much so hard to know if it's in rotation or not.

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Just curious if the changes to that map got in and how they are playing out.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Phew on January 07, 2014, 07:26:19 pm
Anyone seen Dun Bhirum in lately?  I haven't been on as much so hard to know if it's in rotation or not.

I played it within the last week. I noticed that the walls were raised to prohibit attackers from just hopping over, but didn't notice any other obvious changes. It's great fun to play, although a bit biased toward defenders (as most maps are now with the 18s respawn timer for defense). I didn't realize that there was a right ingress route until Rusty showed us, and that's my preferred attack route now.

It's a good sized map for typical NA2 populations. Attacking Hailes with 12 people on the server is like watching paint dry.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Viriathus on January 07, 2014, 08:37:05 pm
Its in the rotaion, it plays well, however you need to update a few things, make some barriers or raise the second wall alittle bit, atackers are getting on the table and jumping to the other side. And i would remove all that junk on the flag, its pointless. You could enlarge it too, making it able to play and defend the flag there with your team rather than being just a big obstacle. Also, remove the stables on the flag area.

I dont know if these things i mentioned were implemented by you or Fips, either way they should go.

Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Phew on January 07, 2014, 08:46:39 pm
Its in the rotaion, it plays well, however you need to update a few things, make some barriers or raise the second wall alittle bit, atackers are getting on the table and jumping to the other side. And i would remove all that junk on the flag, its pointless.

The platform at the flag has created some fun gameplay elements; the columns provide cover from defending archers, and the platform enables one to engage several enemies simultaneously without being ganked if you maneuver creatively. I think more maps should have crap at the flag to discourage the mindless swinging that often occurs there. 
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Jona on January 07, 2014, 11:15:36 pm
I didn't realize that there was a right ingress route until Rusty showed us, and that's my preferred attack route now.


Heh... I didn't realize there was a backdoor until my team lost twice in a row right off the bat so we all camped flag. We had maybe 6 guys per team and no one except for the one ninja knew of the secret route. Quite a well-hidden backdoor. Should kinda be more obvious for defenders, but now that we know its there, we should be safe... I hope.

Also, not sure whose map this is, but it is the one where attackers have to lift open two gates, and there is an alternate path where you can raise a ladder to act as a bridge across the water when attacking from the front. Map also has a side ladder and backdoor. Anyways, there was always a second "backdoor" (more of a sidedoor really) that defenders could sally out. However, they had to cross the water and it ends up being an impossible feat since you drown before you can get across, so no one actually did it, ever. In fact most people probably didn't even acknowledge this door's existence. Well, I saw attackers pour through that door for the first time ever recently, any idea if that map got edited? Used to be an unreachable spot for attackers, and defenders had no reason to go outside there since it was suicide. 

(For all I know the attackers could have walked outside that way and had the door shut behind them, so they had to break it open... they might not have actually walked up from the water themselves.)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Fips on January 11, 2014, 02:46:02 pm
Himmelsberg_dtv: Uff, ehm, a lot to be done about this one =D
First: This needs AI Meshes. Second: You need to make the whole thing more dtv-like. Bots will get stuck everywhere on the map. Edit in invisible walls or walls/fences that are not abusable to force the bots to go somewhere they cannot get stuck (Or at least where you think they cannot get stuck). That also goes for players. For example, on your bot spawn: Players could easily get behind the invisible wall by simply jumping from the bridge to the spawn area and the bots will be stuck behind it. Prevent that from happening. Bots will ALWAYS go for players if they are in range. So players can get them stuck on so many places on your map for the fence experience, players need restrictions too, not just bots.
It's probably not going to get in the next patch (sorry), but it seems like i really need to make that guide for dtv maps finally, because there is a lot to be done on your map and i consider you one of the most experienced mappers crpg has to offer =D
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Viriathus on January 11, 2014, 03:09:29 pm
...but it seems like i really need to make that guide for dtv maps finally...

Yea Fips, do it when you got time
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Moncho on January 18, 2014, 07:19:33 pm
Nice maps, a small thing.
In Dun Bhirum, I managed to trap myself. There is a tower on the back left (from defenders perspective) that is slightly scaled down, the hole is big enough to go in, but not to go back out.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on January 19, 2014, 06:03:42 am
Himmelsberg_dtv: Uff, ehm, a lot to be done about this one =D

Yeah, don't worry about this one for now...

I didn't put much effort into it :)
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on January 29, 2014, 11:44:11 pm
Those of you that have played Dun Bhirum's new version...thoughts?

- Overall balance?
- New defense spawn placements?  Good, bad?
- Addition of objects around flag area?  Good, bad?
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Mustikki on February 11, 2014, 08:31:43 pm
Could you get the screenies work again, please. :)
I.e. http://imgur.com/ (http://imgur.com/) works nicely.
Title: Re: Elindor's Maps Feedback & Updates Thread
Post by: Elindor on February 20, 2014, 07:30:31 am
Could you get the screenies work again, please. :)
I.e. http://imgur.com/ (http://imgur.com/) works nicely.

I know, I don't wanna have to reupload everything :)