cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Panos_ on January 21, 2018, 04:41:16 pm

Title: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Panos_ on January 21, 2018, 04:41:16 pm
As the title says, Id like to suggest a Ranged cap per team.

Yay, Nay.


We had enough.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Panos_ on January 21, 2018, 04:43:58 pm
Seriously, something needs to be done..
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Larvae on January 21, 2018, 04:55:35 pm
thats what i have been suggesting in the balance thread,not a cap,but they need to balance ranged and cav per team which is ignoring banner balance.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Chasey on January 21, 2018, 05:00:11 pm
what do you do when the amount of ranged exceeds the cap? you cant force people to play another class. Wouldn't it be better to have another kinda balance behind the banner balance so ranged and cav get balanced equally between the teams?

edit - Didn't see the post above :D , what he said ^
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Panos_ on January 21, 2018, 05:01:44 pm
you cant force people to play another class.


Oh yes you can.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Kirman on January 21, 2018, 05:10:12 pm
With the current amount of ranged we have, ranged is actually forcing us to play another class.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: //saxon on January 21, 2018, 05:20:20 pm
:D

:)
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Torben on January 21, 2018, 05:21:04 pm
iirc its not possible with current xp system to fix balance because of some hardcoded stuff. 
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Algarn on January 21, 2018, 05:52:23 pm
The problem arise when there's too much ranged in one team, said team either lose or dominates for the next 3 rounds depending on what the other team has got when it comes to class distribution. It also depends on the map, maps with roofs will always be beneficial for ranged players, for example, Dave and me both went 15+ kills on that map with the two roofs at the center, then proceed to get rekt because there were just too many archers in our team, making us unable to hold all of the cav/melee in front of us.
Then, when it comes to your solution, what defines a ranged player ? Cos anyone can take a crossbow, or at least put some wpf in it. Another issue resides in the level of the players, why should a crossbow main be blocked from entering the server because a level 15 crossbowman is currently playing ?
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 21, 2018, 06:02:18 pm
Just get some shields and win every round. Ranged sucks unless its an open map and theyre combined with cav.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Varadin on January 21, 2018, 06:30:00 pm
I dont mind dying to archers or having to fight few of them here and there , but having to face a whole team of range...i just see no fun there even if i would have a shield.Class limit and if it above the limit last ones who joined are forced to spawn without range weapons but they can always pick it up if someone dies on field.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Novamere on January 21, 2018, 06:46:39 pm
You do know NA had an all melee server called TunaTown it was the most beautiful thing a long time ago................Maybe EU_1_Melee needs to be created and the same thing for NA
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 21, 2018, 06:53:57 pm
You do know NA had an all melee server called TunaTown it was the most beautiful thing a long time ago................Maybe EU_1_Melee needs to be created and the same thing for NA

At this point, might as well just open melee only server since people dont want counterplay anything but melee. I do remember the melee server being rather dead though.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Osiris on January 21, 2018, 07:01:25 pm
As a shield user the only thing i really dislike (apart from mounted ranged) is the fact they just run away when you reach them :D Ive had archers that will just run for 30-40+ seconds instead of fighting some even drop their stuff and i cant catch them :( if i do go heavy agi then i cant hurt anyone else  :mrgreen:


*edit*  The biggest and only real problem in my eyes is the map designs, what right minded individual would want a map filled with high camping spots that are hard to get to that all the archers can stand on and just shoot :D
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 21, 2018, 07:07:12 pm
As a shield user the only thing i really dislike (apart from mounted ranged) is the fact they just run away when you reach them :D Ive had archers that will just run for 30-40+ seconds instead of fighting some even drop their stuff and i cant catch them :( if i do go heavy agi then i cant hurt anyone else  :mrgreen:


*edit*  The biggest and only real problem in my eyes is the map designs, what right minded individual would want a map filled with high camping spots that are hard to get to that all the archers can stand on and just shoot :D

There are some really shitty maps with buildings in both spawns and then a big gap in the middle, which makes for no charges. Maps could definitely be switched out for better experience.

And yeh running ranged are annoying, but i usually just pursue them for 5 seconds if i see its not going to happen and then leave.  Most of the time i can just run away and hit som infantry in the back instead while leaving the archer out of position hopefully.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Novamere on January 21, 2018, 07:11:24 pm
At this point, might as well just open melee only server since people dont want counterplay anything but melee. I do remember the melee server being rather dead though.

Friday and Saturday nights it was crazy all the archers would be forced to go melee or be alone with 5 people on the normal server while Melee only had 40 lol
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: kasMVC on January 21, 2018, 08:02:52 pm
Buff range it's so nerfed right now honestly people want to play range because it is super cool why dont you guys go play tekken versus street fighter if you want to do melee????
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Leshma on January 21, 2018, 08:13:42 pm
And I want 1000 bitcoins.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: XyNox on January 21, 2018, 08:39:53 pm
Even at the risk of receiving the usual "nerf ranged", "remove ranged" nonsense, let me try to provoke a reasonable discussion here:

People probably dont know the names of my alts but I very well may have as many combined gens of pure melee in this game as I have with my archer main. So contrary to popular belief, I dont play ranged only and I it is not my gaol to make ranged OP. Not gonna lie, archery is still the main reason I play this game though.

On topic, needless to say, ranged imbalance is an issue that justifiably is a concern as old as the game itself.

People just happen to be interested in medieval warfare as whole and that simply includes ranged, not just 2h dueling. This will not change no matter how weak you make ranged, some people just like playing ranged, period. Discouraging people from playing ranged by simply nerfing the class into the ground though is unfair/poor gamedesign and thus unacceptable.

I can completely agree however that the ability of dealing damage from a distance in a melee centric game should be a privilege that should come at a cost greater than that of melee classes. What that cost is supposed to be is open for discussion, yet it should still allow a competent player to do well with the class. Gold/Upkeep certainly is not a suitable deterrence at this point, which may indicate a new form of currency is needed which should be rewarded for performing well instead of being earned though playtime mostly, which is the case with gold right now. One could think about implementing something like "duty points" when a class does its job properly, e.g. a piker stabbing an incoming horse instead of the inf who is already surrounded by 3 shielders or an archer who targets enemy ranged rather than shooting into melee when both options are present. Just a thought at this point, maybe worth getting deeper into.

Even with all that in mind though, I cant help but notice that the average EU1 player is rarely making any effort to shift the battles in their favour with the tools that are already available.

Everytime I play on EU1, even when one team gets destroyed by ranged for the 5th consecutive round, on the 6th they will usually still go to the exact same open spot again, mindlessly walking around in circles, needlessly exposing themselves to ranged nests. Never bringing siegeshields, never making an effort to protect their own ranged from inf/cav so they can in turn handle or at least suppress the enemy ranged/cav/HA. If the round starts and the melee blob insist on mindlessly sprinting around the map - while splitting up in little groups in the process - without ever looking back to check if teammates need help, just to eventually complete an entire lap around map and ending up at their own spawn again, it is really no wonder that only the fastest 2h and pole will be left alive after 2 min because all their teammates with heavy gear ( such as low ATH - high PD archers with high bow/quiver weight ) got picked off one by one in the first minute of the round. Even in the cases where it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to have ranged in your team due to the enemy having horse ranged, you will still never see the average no-shield melee player willing to stick to his own ranged but rather try to chase down the HA on foot with a greatsword. LOL. Shielders usually are completely oblivious to friendlies trying to hide behind them and will still try to dodge an incoming projectile with the shield up just to save a few shield hitpoints, which in turn gets the friendly behind hit or killed. Minding the line of fire of friendly ranged also seems like rocketscience to the average melee player, who will still insist to charge down an enemy archer even if he has 5 friendly ranged right in his back, effectively blocking all of them to take a shot. And you can bet if this charging melee will get shot ( either by the enemy or friendlies ) he will still be the first to cry about ranged.

I may ask for a lot here since this behavior didnt really change for the past 8 years but there are a load of options available that simply nobody is willing to utilize. Of course, I know, we have a very "special" community with a lot of cool kids who are still at a maturation stage where discriminating a group of players depending on their weapon or class preference is perceived as "strong" and "alpha male" and all that teenager stuff and cooperating with others, especially with ranged in this context, will probably be seen as an infringement of their self-esteem. The next time you get shot to pieces though by 5 archers however, you may want to ask yourself where your own archers are or what the hell you are even doing charging a ranged nest alone with no shield and no friendly ranged backup to give you some suppressing fire. I can only hope nobody expects all their problems getting nerfed away just because they may be too lazy and entitled to adapt/cooperate, since this is not going to happen.

Regardless of the issues stated above, one team having all the ranged and one team having none should obviously not happen. One would have to come to a consensus what should happen with banner stacks. Should class balance ALWAYS override banner balance, as was suggested before ? There also have been some preparations to change maprotation so we dont have to play 10 ranged heavy maps in a row, then 10 cav heavy maps in a row, then 10 narrow street city maps in a row. That may already easy some frustration quite a bit.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Pawiu on January 21, 2018, 09:09:48 pm
I think that you forgot to mention that
now basicaly every corner and most of trees are "ranged nests"
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Gnjus on January 21, 2018, 09:15:33 pm
Not gonna lie, archery is still the main reason I play this game though.

Stopped reading right there. Go die in a fire and may the urn with your ashes get dumped into a septic hole.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: XyNox on January 21, 2018, 09:22:47 pm
I think that you forgot to mention that
now basicaly every corner and most of trees are "ranged nests"

First of all, not really, since single ranged is easily charged down alone by inf/cav they tend to stay in groups. We dont have the server pop to make a ranged nest out of every corner and tree on the map.

Second, there are very few maps are not filled with cover of one form or another. So if you are going around a corner with ranged behind:
1) Why are you going around that particular corner and not taking anouther route ?
2) Why are you going first and not behind the safety of a shielder ?
3) Why are you not letting your ranged putting pressure on the enemy ranged first before enganging ?
4) Why are you not bringing a siegeshield to provide cover when it is too scarce in your opinion since you can easily afford it being a poleaxe user ?
5) Why didnt you put like 1 or 2 points you have in IF into shield skill since the loss of HP is almost negligible compared to the benefit of a low lvl shield against ranged ?

Stopped reading right there. Go die in a fire and may the urn with your ashes get dumped into a septic hole.

A formidable example of why balance discussions are not held publicly in this game :D
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 21, 2018, 09:38:41 pm
People are mindless idiots, that is why things are so nerfed already. The devs decided that adapting the game to the lowest common denominator of player was a good choice. I commonly see a map with cover EVERYWHERE and people will decide to rush straight down the middle, with archers on both sides of them, and they will stop in the middle to fight. Its like rewarding a child for bad behaviour when you nerf stuff so much, and then you end up with a spoiled brat that will not settle with anything. As much as i want to blame the numbnuts for crying so much, the core killer is indeed the balancers caving in to the crying children that want icecream before dinner.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: XyNox on January 21, 2018, 09:46:20 pm
People are mindless idiots, that is why things are so nerfed already. The devs decided that adapting the game to the lowest common denominator of player was a good choice. I commonly see a map with cover EVERYWHERE and people will decide to rush straight down the middle, with archers on both sides of them, and they will stop in the middle to fight. Its like rewarding a child for bad behaviour when you nerf stuff so much, and then you end up with a spoiled brat that will not settle with anything. As much as i want to blame the numbnuts for crying so much, the core killer is indeed the balancers caving in to the crying children that want icecream before dinner.

I couldnt agree more, thanks. Unfortunately having this policy for all these years made players develope certain habbits that people have a hard time breaking now or are not even willing to break.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 21, 2018, 10:21:28 pm
I think people are trying to make chess out of rock paper scissors. The game is not and cannot reach "perfect balance" and neither should it be sought after. What we can do find reasons why it is as it is. Why is archery considered so strong, does it not have any natural counters? I hate myself for this, but is cav too weak to deal with archers? Do we need cav buffs to be a constant ultimate threat to ranged? I absolutely hate cav, and consider it the biggest factor in the game to winning currently already, but there are always adjustments that can change things up in order to bring balance. Nerfing archers will not change much as has been repeatedly seen throughout the entirety of this mod. They have had nothing but nerfs and they are still considered a pain.

I generally say shield buffs to make infantry more aware of their survival alternatives, but i can list some cav things that could spice things up though i am ignorant to how to play cav as much as i am as ranged.
More horse speeds faster in general to make awareness difficult. Slightly tankier horses. Bring back lance angles? If possible, make hills less of a movement speed obstacle (is this even possible? Can it be done for infantry too, it would help improve a lot of frustrating aspects).
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Panos_ on January 22, 2018, 12:57:31 am
People are mindless idiots, that is why things are so nerfed already. The devs decided that adapting the game to the lowest common denominator of player was a good choice. I commonly see a map with cover EVERYWHERE and people will decide to rush straight down the middle, with archers on both sides of them, and they will stop in the middle to fight. Its like rewarding a child for bad behaviour when you nerf stuff so much, and then you end up with a spoiled brat that will not settle with anything. As much as i want to blame the numbnuts for crying so much, the core killer is indeed the balancers caving in to the crying children that want icecream before dinner.


Yes yes gravoth, ok we got it already, we are all bad shitlords who want everything nerfed to the ground, while you and your spastic clan stacking clanmates, are the best player of c-rpg.

Can you zip your fucking mouth already?


Ranged, all three classes, arent OP, quite the opposite.
The real problem is their numbers, 2-3 archers arent quite a threat, but 6 on the same team are, hence my cap suggestion.

Also, what the fuck is going on with people who compare cavalry to archers? Are you really THAT stupid? You are comparing a class that goes head to head with the enemy, to spastic monkeys that climb roofs.

I demand that I should be put in the balancers team.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Beleg on January 22, 2018, 01:08:01 am
Sure Panos. All cavs on eu1 definitely go head to head with enemy and don't spend most of their time trying to couch unaware people from behind.

About the thread, basically what xynox said.

I've been playing with my 2h alt mostly nowadays and I so rarely get killed by ranged. I know where enemy ranged gonna be and where they'll focus on. I don't run into their nest like an idiot. Not to sound like an asshole, but if people use their brains a little they won't get shot that often.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 22, 2018, 01:16:05 am

Yes yes gravoth, ok we got it already, we are all bad shitlords who want everything nerfed to the ground, while you and your spastic clan stacking clanmates, are the best player of c-rpg.

Can you zip your fucking mouth already?


Ranged, all three classes, arent OP, quite the opposite.
The real problem is their numbers, 2-3 archers arent quite a threat, but 6 on the same team are, hence my cap suggestion.

Also, what the fuck is going on with people who compare cavalry to archers? Are you really THAT stupid? You are comparing a class that goes head to head with the enemy, to spastic monkeys that climb roofs.

I demand that I should be put in the balancers team.

So you missed the entire point of my post, well i cant say im surprised.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: kasMVC on January 22, 2018, 02:36:21 am
If range bothers you just grab a shield or play range the time of the melee my old friend is over you need to come to terms with reality raneg is the superior race


RANGE PRIDE
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: the real god emperor on January 22, 2018, 03:00:49 am
People are mindless idiots, that is why things are so nerfed already. The devs decided that adapting the game to the lowest common denominator of player was a good choice. I commonly see a map with cover EVERYWHERE and people will decide to rush straight down the middle, with archers on both sides of them, and they will stop in the middle to fight. Its like rewarding a child for bad behaviour when you nerf stuff so much, and then you end up with a spoiled brat that will not settle with anything. As much as i want to blame the numbnuts for crying so much, the core killer is indeed the balancers caving in to the crying children that want icecream before dinner.

Exactly my thoughts.

However, I support an idea of class balance overriding banner balance though.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: McKli_PL on January 22, 2018, 03:18:22 am
I support an idea of class balance overriding banner balance though.
in past it was done by big clans stacking vs other clans stacks on eu1, in most big clans they had all kinds of classes, pikers, frontline slashers, agi going for flanks and naturally good cav and range.
Now semi stacks are much based on friendship than ability to demolish other team so yeah we need some 'wpf' balance (range,cav)
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: XyNox on January 22, 2018, 04:14:21 am
I demand that I should be put in the balancers team.

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Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 22, 2018, 05:04:23 am
in past it was done by big clans stacking vs other clans stacks on eu1, in most big clans they had all kinds of classes, pikers, frontline slashers, agi going for flanks and naturally good cav and range.
Now semi stacks are much based on friendship than ability to demolish other team so yeah we need some 'wpf' balance (range,cav)

Byz stacks have obviously been rather big these last few weeks, but ive seen some others do it well too. It would be nice to see more enthusiasm in casual-competitive play by clans. Recruitments going again etc. Many seem to want to apply to us, but it feels bad to absorb too many players into one clan. Battles could change quite drastically if there was more interest in such things.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Rebelyell on January 22, 2018, 06:23:38 am
Byz stacks have obviously been rather big these last few weeks, but ive seen some others do it well too. It would be nice to see more enthusiasm in casual-competitive play by clans. Recruitments going again etc. Many seem to want to apply to us, but it feels bad to absorb too many players into one clan. Battles could change quite drastically if there was more interest in such things.
At fifteen, I had the will to  learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no  doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ;  at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could  do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the  square. mate we are just zombies runningh around

We should have hard class balance before banner balance that would fix like most of the situations.
Also Shields really should be 0 req. Whay melle class should invest in to 1 stat just to defend from other class.
Anyone can use pike to counter cav, every class have axes pierce dmg weapons long and short options.


Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Paul on January 22, 2018, 02:00:11 pm
This meme is the perfect example of melee having the wrong attitude when they try to deal with ranged.

I die to ranged, should I:
A. Review where we were on the battlefield? Where was my team? Any decisions/misplays that led me to this point?
B. Work on core-skills such as awareness of individual ranged (using 'tild') and timing dodges when I know the ranged will release?
C. Assume a single piece of equipment will balance the situation for me and make me instantly unbeatable vs their class?

I remember a Native clan skirmish way back in the days, where one of our cav got headshot from across the map while riding orthogonally and at full speed to the shooter. Instead of blaming the game we shouted at our cav, because he rode in a straight line without varying his speed for a few seconds. It's sad to see how weak the current generation is.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Corsair831 on January 22, 2018, 02:10:46 pm
Ranged cap per team is an absolutely stupid idea. All of these 2h heroes who refuse to do anything to counter ranged, complaining about dieing to it all the time, whilst at the same time being able to tank on average 74,000 arrows, one shot any archer with their sword which practically outranges throwing weapons, and move at 3,000,000 mph.

If you ever die to an archer in melee, you're just not very good. It's like a level 30 pure duel build dieing to a level 20 pure duel build.

Hi, my name's rock, scissors is fine, but nerf paper, it's overpowered

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Ikarus on January 22, 2018, 02:57:16 pm
Quote
The most effective class I have played is 1h shielder with a spear. Counters ranged, melee and cav.

That was Kinngrimms build and thanks to his constant awareness of his surroundings and his persistance he was pretty much an undying force on the battlefield

there's not even need to put wpf into polearm, just full 1h/shield and a spear to stop cav, very effective when you stick to your team
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: DaveUKR on January 22, 2018, 04:36:47 pm
Just rebalance (aka shuffle) teams after each round.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: njames89 on January 22, 2018, 04:47:56 pm
Get a shield you fkn baddies
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Butan on January 22, 2018, 04:49:01 pm
The banner balance is fine as is.
Most ideas are either uncodable or have a really high potential to break the game (nobody remembers the period of time where banner was either too rigid/too soft and valor/score was bizarelly taken in the equation? Who want that to happen again?).


There is tons of stuff to do in-game to "balance" your team but people dont appreciate that, in its place we have a very old playerbase that are becoming so passionate in their dogmas (or so far up their own ass, your take) about ranged/melee/throwing etc that they could create a religion about it and there would be people to follow them. Its just a game guys.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Corsair831 on January 22, 2018, 04:55:40 pm
The banner balance is fine as is.
Most ideas are either uncodable or have a really high potential to break the game (nobody remembers the period of time where banner was either too rigid/too soft and valor/score was bizarelly taken in the equation? Who want that to happen again?).


There is tons of stuff to do in-game to "balance" your team but people dont appreciate that, in its place we have a very old playerbase that are becoming so passionate in their dogmas (or so far up their own ass, your take) about ranged/melee/throwing etc that they could create a religion about it and there would be people to follow them. Its just a game guys.

Actually lmfao  :lol:  :lol:

"cRPG Religion" ... we need priests ...
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: chamber1412 on January 22, 2018, 05:03:05 pm
who cares about many ranged just play the tarnation game and deal with it, I die in 2 shots and I don't really care
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Sharpe on January 22, 2018, 05:37:27 pm
No.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: Halk on January 22, 2018, 05:46:01 pm
Just balance all ranged players evenly to both teams. Propably suggested already but am too lazy to read the thread.
Title: Re: Ranged cap per team
Post by: illogical on January 22, 2018, 05:50:41 pm
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