Author Topic: dyna's map room  (Read 3786 times)

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Offline dynamike

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2014, 06:37:41 am »
+1
Update:

- File download links fixed
- Sheltered Town updated: abusable house walled off, wrong scene prop house replaced
- Continued working a bunch more hours on The Rock - MORE PICS added!  :D
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Offline Teeth

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2014, 03:16:40 pm »
+3
First of all hurray for a new mapmaker! And I took a glance at your maps.

Sheltered Town

(click to show/hide)

Booty Island

(click to show/hide)

As for the siege map. It looks fairly large with a lot of z-axis. Z-axis quickly racks up travelling time and you should usually have a route to the flag for the attackers that is somewhere within 30-50 seconds otherwise it becomes impossible to take, depending on wear the defenders spawn. Epicly sized castles are fun to make but you keep in mind you are working with a 30 s defender spawn timer. One way to make a big castle work is making the action and defender spawns so spread out that defenders are never all at the flag. This isn't ideal because it creates maps where camping the spawn is the only option or crappy situations where you spawn at the arse end of the castle as a defender when the flag is in peril.

The ideal way to make a big castle work is creating shortcut opportunities. For example the possibility for attackers to open a gate when they have reached the next ring of defenses that opens a much shorter route directly from the spawn, in the vein of Dark Souls map design if you have played that. This way you get a layered castle which is epic as hell but still attackable. In any case keep in mind people want to fight and not simply walk, remember the balance and make sure there are always multiple routes and no deadlocks. Good luck.

Also word on the street is that the Strategus start is gonna be accompanied by a patch. I'd add these maps in their current state, but if you want to make adjustments or finish your siege map, you should hurry.

Offline Mustikki

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2014, 09:55:36 pm »
+1

(click to show/hide)
You might not have these individuals on NA, but such a slope with an invisibarrier on EU means that some archers are going to stand right at the border, which forces infantry to do a terribly slow climb up to them, while getting shot from multiple angels. I tend to avoid creating such areas as it is agonizing for melee, regardless whether they have shield. It's up to you though.[/spoiler]

You might want to think also how this would work in RL. Sharp hill edge is naturally a good way to make barrier for area edge and therefore due to game mechanics the invisible barriers should be placed before that edge. Then everyone can think from far away "I can't probably go through dat."

Offline dynamike

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2014, 10:40:40 pm »
+1
Thanks so much for the amazing feedback guys, this is tremendously helpful for a map newb like me!! I followed all of Teeth's instructions:

Sheltered Town:
- Smoothed out the walkway and other general areas
- Tried to break up the textures in the village with other textures and painting (not sure if I succeeded lol)
- Barriered off the fences
- For the barriers in the slopes, as you suggested - let's see if it will be an issue or not... not sure right now how to set them better
- The next map will certainly be smaller in size, I had no point of reference proportion wise when I started this one haha

http://www.mediafire.com/download/6xfzzv6drzg0sag/Sheltered_Town.zip


Booty Island:
- Added barriers to props potentially without collision
- Moved spawns around: one on the bridge and the other out in the open
- Added some more props to better prevent spawn rape and added on treehouse to make that area of the map more viable

http://www.mediafire.com/download/ia3gg8lh6r63stz/Booty_Island.zip


The Rock:
As far as the siege map goes, yes it has some height to it. But I am making sure to add at least 3-4 path ways to every section of the map and decent shortcuts for defenders and attackers. It is a very ambitious map and I'd like to see how it plays out  :) I am trying to get if finished before the patch, but I am having difficulties to figure out if the movable siege elements like ladders, doors and siege tower work properly - every time I try to host a game with any map, my game crashes  :? Any tips for that? (the module I use is a copy of crpg and I launch it without WSE - don't know how else to do it)

Now, this is definitely work in progress, but maybe you want to check it out already and let me know if anything is fundamentally wrong (spawn points and motion paths still have to be placed):

http://www.mediafire.com/download/6zq49hmm2loilr6/The_Rock.zip
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Offline Teeth

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2014, 11:18:12 pm »
+1
This is how I test maps in an actual hosted environment using my original cRPG module:

- Rename any map you want to host/test to a random blank, I use blank 12 for example
- Copy your renamed map, for example scn_blank_12 into your regular cRPG/SceneObj folder
- Change the terrain code of scn_blank_12 to the terrain code of your map in the cRPG/scenes.txt
- Launch regular cRPG with the launcher (untick WSE2)
- Host (or host a random map and use a map poll, I find that quicker) blank 31, which should be 12, the names of the maps are off, if this isn't the one try 32 or 33.
- Test that shit

Again, this is in the base cRPG module, blanks are not actual maps so you won't mess anything up by copying over one.

Offline Thranduil

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2014, 12:16:54 am »
0
This is how I test maps in an actual hosted environment using my original cRPG module:

- Rename any map you want to host/test to a random blank, I use blank 12 for example
- Copy your renamed map, for example scn_blank_12 into your regular cRPG/SceneObj folder
- Change the terrain code of scn_blank_12 to the terrain code of your map in the cRPG/scenes.txt
- Launch regular cRPG with the launcher (untick WSE2)
- Host (or host a random map and use a map poll, I find that quicker) blank 31, which should be 12, the names of the maps are off, if this isn't the one try 32 or 33.
- Test that shit

Again, this is in the base cRPG module, blanks are not actual maps so you won't mess anything up by copying over one.

Though oddly enough, for siege beta, Native Hailes Castle is correct I think.
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Offline Fips

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2014, 12:26:25 am »
0
Though oddly enough, for siege beta, Native Hailes Castle is correct I think.

Yes, all native maps got the right name. The fucked up part starts later. And noone has any clue how to fix it =D
Crpg does have an insane amount of maps, maybe warband just can't handle that.

Offline Thranduil

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2014, 12:41:28 am »
0
Yes, all native maps got the right name. The fucked up part starts later. And noone has any clue how to fix it =D
Crpg does have an insane amount of maps, maybe warband just can't handle that.

I always thought it'd be a simple fix in the python files. Guess not.
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Offline dynamike

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2014, 01:37:20 am »
0
So, I think I am going nuts...

I worked hardcore on the siege map to get it finished on time. Played around with the siege props until I got some working results with the instructions of Teeth... portcullis - check; doors - check; ladders - check; siege tower.... see for yourself:

(click to show/hide)

Latest version:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/6zq49hmm2loilr6/The_Rock.zip
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Offline Teeth

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2014, 09:21:00 pm »
+1
My only problem when using your siege tower is that it goes down through the floorboard to connect with the actual terrain floor. I did not have floating wall pieces and the siege tower is supposed to have 3 wheels. The middle one is not properly centered though, which is also the case in the final position you placed it in. You should move final position of the siege tower back anyway, because the ramp is at a terrible angle now and goes through the wall.

This
(click to show/hide)

Should probably look more like this, it is also a little too tall, but eh.
(click to show/hide)

I am not experienced with using siege towers myself. I tried to drop an invisible barrier below it to make it collide with it, but it did not listen, but I did put it in in hostmode. I think I have seen siege towers go over objects other than terrain before, so it might just be this specific item that bugs out, or I might be mistaken altogether. Try replacing it with a different item and see if it drops through it as well, you could give placing invisibarriers below the weels another shot and otherwise you can always put some actual terrain there and let it move over that. It will most likely work then, or maybe someone else has some advice for you.

The map seems to work otherwise, you really have to smoothen it up though. This game handles slopes very poorly and they look terrible, which makes very vertical maps complicated, but there is still a lot of room for smoothing regardless. Below are a few examples of areas that need to be smoothed.

(click to show/hide)

I am a little worried about the balance. You have a good number of routes for each defensive ring, but the fastest time to flag is about 50 seconds, which is the backladder when you spawn at the most ideal spot. Admittedly the host character has 0 athlethics and 0 agi, but it is still quite slow. Smoothing might increase the speed a little and you have decently spread out defender spawns, but if you have any ideas to make the castle a little easier for attackers it would probably be a good thing. Min max the attacker spawns at least to minimize walking time.

Offline dynamike

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2014, 09:48:15 pm »
0
Thanks Teeth, so for you the upper ramp (connected to the siege tower) moved properly with the siege tower? Was it up at all, or did it stay in the same position while moving? As you can see in my pics, for me the ramp behind the siege tower is tilted upwards while the tower is moving and the upper ramp stays immobile at the wall. Not sure what I am doing differently... Also, if the wall piece does not move for you, can I assume I don't need to see it as an issue?

The point about the wheels was that I only placed 3 sets of wheels - yet when the tower is moving 3 sets of wheels are connected to it and one extra set is somehow stationary close to the wall  :?

I will try and work around the issue of the siege tower sinking into the ground and definitely smoothen the map out more. Seems like actually walking through it gives you the best perspective of areas needing to be flattened.

As for the movement speed to flags, what I could do is make the lake a bit smaller around the sides to allow for less walking distance. Was already contemplating doing that.

For the pathways for attackers: I'm curious, did you spot the hidden ladder to the right of the siege tower? And the horizontal (and destructible) door in the top level of the high tower, close to the siege tower, that allows you to get onto the high wooden platform path? These should provide for some cool additional ways of taking that castle :wink:

Thanks a lot for the help again!
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Offline Mae.

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2014, 09:52:56 pm »
+1
Yay can't wait to play any of these!
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Offline Teeth

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2014, 10:11:29 pm »
+1
Thanks Teeth, so for you the upper ramp (connected to the siege tower) moved properly with the siege tower? Was it up at all, or did it stay in the same position while moving? As you can see in my pics, for me the ramp behind the siege tower is tilted upwards while the tower is moving and the upper ramp stays immobile at the wall. Not sure what I am doing differently... Also, if the wall piece does not move for you, can I assume I don't need to see it as an issue?
No none of that happened for me, besides dropping through the ramped it functioned correctly including all ramps and wheel sets. I will test your map before implementing and if it works for me I am gonna go with it and then we will see. I dunno why it would work differently for you compared to me, if you edited the siege tower in host mode without reloading that could cause some trouble. Normally if you move dynamic items like gates and doors they stop functioning unless you reload.

Seems like actually walking through it gives you the best perspective of areas needing to be flattened.
Yep, I usually take like 5 minutes of speeding through my map on the scene editor horse, which won't work that well here, but yeah running around it makes you see a lot of things that you don't otherwise notice.

For the pathways for attackers: I'm curious, did you spot the hidden ladder to the right of the siege tower? And the horizontal (and destructible) door in the top level of the high tower, close to the siege tower, that allows you to get onto the high wooden platform path? These should provide for some cool additional ways of taking that castle :wink:
I did find those yes, I cheated though, I double clicked all the ladder entry points :P. As I said there are definitely enough ways to tackle each defensive ring, but the distance to flag is still very important as all the different routes lead to the same area at the bottom of the staircase that leads to the flag. If the walking distance is too long and the defenders figure out to camp that location, it is gonna be nigh impossible to take.

Offline Thranduil

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2014, 11:10:36 pm »
+1
I had the same problems Teeth had with the siege tower. If I figure out a solution, I'll post it. I did take a note on a couple things Teeth did not.

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 11:24:10 pm by Thranduil »
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Offline Thranduil

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Re: dyna's map room
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2014, 01:47:05 am »
0
Sorry for double post, but you know you never check your thread unless there is a new post (or at least, I usually don't). And this post is so large, it merits it.

I think I have seen siege towers go over objects other than terrain before, so it might just be this specific item that bugs out, or I might be mistaken altogether.
I've been thinking this for a while Teeth, but I believe I read a long time ago that siege towers only work on terrain (and possibly props that are/have terrain - not sure on this one).

I think maybe Heisenburg is the siege map you were thinking of (it's the one that came to my mind), but after looking at the file, it didn't have entry points to move the tower, so I hosted it and, lo and behold, ..... it moves. Hold on.... my copy in my editing module must be out of date or those entry points are hiding.... okay, updated file to newest..... What the?! It still only has entry point 110 for the siege tower placed back where the tower starts! IT ONLY NEEDS ONE ENTRY POINT?!  :shock:  Okay, gonna try this out with The Rock. ...... Well I'll be a hippopotamus from Missouri! It worked! Just replace entry point 110 to the start of the ramps that way the entry point is pointing in the same direction as the siege tower (same angle and plane). Otherwise you'll have a flying siege tower instead.  :lol: You'll have to test it to get it right. Also, maybe widen the ramps a bit. The siege tower take up almost all room.

(click to show/hide)

Oh, also, dynamike, here's a message from Jona. He kinda posted it in my thread. :lol:

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