Author Topic: Armored horses  (Read 3653 times)

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Offline Osiris

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2014, 01:12:15 pm »
0
yeah +3 rouncey used to be great. Now a normal destrier or even a +3 one dies really quickly to pew pew. When im cav i have to borrow a loomed cata from the armoury to even be slightly effective and not horseless after 30 seconds
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Offline Angantyr

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2014, 02:59:05 pm »
+2
Nerf ranged damage against armor, seems strange for it to be mostly higher than melee.

Offline JasonPastman

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2014, 02:43:46 am »
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@Jason, Cav also have the opportunity to get off the horse at any location they choose, ending up with a mostly capable melee build on foot. 1v1, it helps against many cav counters.

@San, Cav also must invest points into riding that infantry do not.  As such, from a purely statistical perspective, dismounted cav will always be at a disadvantage.
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Offline San

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2014, 03:22:55 am »
+2
Against the likes of pikes and hoplites (and if you're shielder cav, lone ranged), you should have the advantage. They don't have the luxury of extra slots for dueling weapons. That's really all I meant.

Offline JasonPastman

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2014, 07:34:46 am »
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Against the likes of pikes and hoplites (and if you're shielder cav, lone ranged), you should have the advantage. They don't have the luxury of extra slots for dueling weapons. That's really all I meant.

dismounted cav will always be at a disadvantage.

That's really all I meant.
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Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2014, 08:45:07 pm »
+1
I just want to put it out there that Pikes are way less of a problem than Hoplites.  The pike animation is awful, and the damage isn't that high.  It also glances a lot and you can see a pike a mile away.  Hoplites stab much faster but with less dead spots and aren't as apparent.  The Hoplite stab animation also adds the most length of all stabs, I think.  Certainly more than the regular pole arm stab.  Hoplites also have easier follow up attacks that are easier to aim and do more damage than the pike.

And tydeus, if 5 riders ride at a Hoplite, he will rear at least 2 of them, then block the rest and maybe take one bump damage then roll to the other end of the map.

So in short the emergence of Hoplites and horse ranged, plus the buffs to 1h and polearm animations and the constant nerfs to cav have made them mostly ineffective.
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Offline imisshotmail

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2014, 10:45:22 pm »
-2
You can outrange a hoplite with a Heavy Lance if you do it right, though it of course requires a pretty open area and him to be alone, and they can just choose to block instead of trying to hit you and be unkillable (the problem with hoplites in melee also) but yeah hoplites are more of a problem for any class than long spears, atleast with them they have pretty severe downsides to negate the benefits of using one unlike hoplites.

But anyway on the main topic -
The main reason for people using armoured horses now is the fact that they are still 5 riding which means there is literally no reason to not use one if you have the gold. Personally I don't think the lighter horses dieing fast to ranged is that big of a deal because if you are using a rouncey, destrier or courser you should be able to melee perfectly fine too, so if your horse gets shot down after you kill 1-2 guys on horseback i'd say they are almost just like having free kills.

I think you should have to invest heavily in riding to use armoured horses, so much so that your melee will be severely limited. They should be for dedicated cavalry players, who need to have their horse live for a long time to utilize their build because they suck when they aren't a horse. It is really stupid that you can add 5 riding to any melee build and you will 100% increase your KDR by a huge amount just using a heavy horse.

If all the armoured horses were 8 riding requirement they would be a lot more balanced, skill based and just generally fun for everyone. High riding builds are fun for the cavalry player, heavy cav actually having a downside is fun for melee and ranged players, and anyone who likes to use the other horses with their melee/cav hybrids suddenly doesn't feel like they are just gimping themselves by not using an armoured horse.

Offline Tovi

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2014, 11:03:32 pm »
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I see no reason to need more than 5 to ride a regular horse. It's not harder to ride a horse with an armor as it's slower that way.
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Offline karasu

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2014, 02:17:03 pm »
-1
The problem isn't the fact that they are armored and have loads of HP, they still have weak points (head, swings on legs).

It is in the fact that they are really fast and maneuverable, for infinite time (opposing to the historic records of heavy cav, for the most obvious reasons), with the addition of the problem created by how speed bonus works in this game.

Offline Tovi

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2014, 02:46:37 pm »
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Infinite time ??? You mean 7 minutes, I suppose...
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Offline Shaksie

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2014, 02:53:42 pm »
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I've played all classes fairly extensively for some time and I think it's fair to say ranged is pretty damn overpowered, especially versus heavily armored things. A tincan is a joy to see if you have a +3 longbow and +3 bodkins, they can't move fast enough to dodge you and your damage is barely hindered. The same applies to a lesser degree with horses; despite having heaps of health and more armor than I would've though a person could wear, ranged weapons still kill them way too quickly.

Also, I think it's pretty ridiculous how horses have ZERO armor on their legs. It should be a percentage of their armor (maybe 25% or so) and the models should reflect this; a plated charger could have chainmail on their legs for instance.

Finally I don't think price is a very good deterrent, at all. It just means that only people who have retired enough to have amassed a sizable fortune will be able to play them. This also means that the majority of horses are heirloomed.

Light Cav should be buffed somehow; I think all horses should also have a higher resistance to ranged weaponry, scaling with the horses speed/maneuver. I also think that depending on the speed/maneuver of the horse, it should be able to execute a dodge, aimed by the camera, which is faster and longer but not as high as the regular jump and has a say, 45 degree arc from the horse's facing point. Also, horses should have their difficulty related to their weight (health/armor) so it's not harder to ride an Eastern Horse than it is to ride a Plated Charger, I would've thought this would be pretty obvious seeing that it would befit both balance and realism discussions. This would reduce the melee plausibility of dedicated heavy cavalry and increase that of light cavalry, which I again, would have though made sense.

This could relate to a suggestion I made a while back of dodges; I think people should be able to execute a roll; similar to say, Gears of War. (forwards, backwards, sideways) It should however, reduce movement or even attack speed/damage for a time so that it's not advisable to spam it in combat situations other than to stop yourself being squashed, shot etc.
The dodge should depend heavily on the players athletics/agility and their equipment weight, also their unsheathed weapons. People with giant swords (flamberge) or giant spears (pike, longspear etc.) should not be able to dodge whatsoever. However, people with light armor and a 1h sword should be able to execute a quick, and lengthy dodge which can save them from the impending doom of a plated charger squashing you.

This would substantially reduce the Q_Q from all classes; more people would be able to use cav if they wish, without fear of disgusting upkeep, naughty arrows and long pokey things and being 1 shotted by a lucky legchop.
Infantry would have their Q_Q reduced in that they can now actually dodges horses instead of just waiting for the squish.
Archers would also be able to dodge various things; ranging from enemy arrows to a gigantaur horsey, to even a naughty axe.

tl;dr- Give horses leg armor, reduce upkeep and buff resistance to ranged weapons. Also give them a 45 degree leap. However increase difficulty for heavier horses and significantly reduce it for some light ones.
Give infantry the ability to dodge.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 02:59:44 pm by Shaksie »
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Offline karasu

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2014, 04:50:34 pm »
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Infinite time ??? You mean 7 minutes, I suppose...

Does it really matter?

Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2014, 09:41:58 pm »
+1
I think what everyone is saying is there's no way a 1h stab with a short sword should wreck both the armored horse and rider.
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Offline pingpong

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2014, 02:14:42 am »
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Cav is not OP, i have been on many maps where it was like 17+ cav on the other team and one sad cav on ours, and we won 4-0.
How? by not running after them into the open like tards and using the fucking stakes , map features and teamplay to gain an advantage.
 
So they  are not OP at all, just a game changer if used properly and what i've seen is like usually half the cav on our  team either suicide charges or spends the entire round chasing that elusive HA or HX ignoring the enemy ranged and inf completely.

Its true that some maps, mainly that desert dunes one is really bad experience if your on a low cav team vs +10 cav on the other, but that just plain bad map design in the first place, not Cav being OP.

Offline imisshotmail

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Re: Armored horses
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2014, 02:58:39 am »
+1
I think what everyone is saying is there's no way a 1h stab with a short sword should wreck both the armored horse and rider.

Every melee hit should completely wreck a cav player if it's at speed, it's your own fault for being bad enough to get hit by a "1h stab with a short sword". Things like that should do MORE damage to punish the masses of completely awful cavalry players who get away with making mistakes far too much.