Author Topic: Nerf HX  (Read 6940 times)

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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2013, 07:32:09 pm »
+1
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Offline bruce

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2013, 09:25:33 pm »
+2
As I said - the natural counters of the class (but also, of all mounted ranged classes) got weaker during time. Look up forum posts two years ago, HX, with same stats as now, was a joke/gimmick class which few people bothered to play.  You had to be a masochist to pick it over a horse archer, and foot archers would reliably oneshot any 7 str build, with great accuracy. Many infantrymen had throwing weapons too, so riding up close to infantry was largely a bad idea.

All these counters got systematically nerfed so infantry would have an easier time, and we have the situation where the HX is a better class then the HA (tried a few days ago to make a STF HA - it works, but not nearly as well as a HX). That said, if the HX gets nerfed without any other changes, people will make HA STF chars to troll. Because once foot ranged is eliminated / there is too few foot ranged, they can ride around infantry at will, and whether they do 60p or 40p matters very little in the grand scheme of things.

The effect is especially nasty if they are people which can afford to just ignore upkeep for a while (turns out upkeep doesn't work so well) and ride on destriers+, making it incredibly hard to actually down them. That said, all cavalry riding on destriers+ is very hard to down, but at least infantry can prevent melee cavalry from attacking, even if they can't counter them so well anymore.

I'm against deleting the HX class, but it will have to take some sort of nerf eventually. I think downgrading to hunting crossbows and higher str reqs would be enough.
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Offline ROHYPNOL

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2013, 06:41:35 am »
+2
As I said - the natural counters of the class (but also, of all mounted ranged classes) got weaker during time. Look up forum posts two years ago, HX, with same stats as now, was a joke/gimmick class which few people bothered to play.  You had to be a masochist to pick it over a horse archer, and foot archers would reliably oneshot any 7 str build, with great accuracy. Many infantrymen had throwing weapons too, so riding up close to infantry was largely a bad idea.

All these counters got systematically nerfed so infantry would have an easier time, and we have the situation where the HX is a better class then the HA (tried a few days ago to make a STF HA - it works, but not nearly as well as a HX). That said, if the HX gets nerfed without any other changes, people will make HA STF chars to troll. Because once foot ranged is eliminated / there is too few foot ranged, they can ride around infantry at will, and whether they do 60p or 40p matters very little in the grand scheme of things.

The effect is especially nasty if they are people which can afford to just ignore upkeep for a while (turns out upkeep doesn't work so well) and ride on destriers+, making it incredibly hard to actually down them. That said, all cavalry riding on destriers+ is very hard to down, but at least infantry can prevent melee cavalry from attacking, even if they can't counter them so well anymore.

I'm against deleting the HX class, but it will have to take some sort of nerf eventually. I think downgrading to hunting crossbows and higher str reqs would be enough.

And you still think this would stop the whining and bitching? Just until someone skillfull at the game comes along and ruins your fun, then it is back to the forums the baddies go. Thank god that some of you

could not manage to weasel your way into being a game balancer, it is already bad as is. I elect that you should have a minimum kdr with multiple builds on the website to be a game balancer,

seems like other than that people just want shit nerfed because they cannot beat it. Don't take the first part so serious, it would just be funny to see all the other players who have played one build the

entirety of crpg get shit on at anything else they could possibly do but still cry nerf.
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Offline Zaren

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2013, 07:39:58 am »
+8
how bout instead of raging at a class less than 1/3 of you guys have actually played and even less are actually any good at, we just stop nerfing bows to the ground. Sure you can say that horse xbow is BETTER than horse archer, but that doesnt mean you nerf horse xbow... you could just buff HA a bit since atm it has a large learning curve(maybe buff is the wrong word....lessen the curve is a better way to say it). Honestly, of all the horse xbows i see im really only worried about 2 or 3 and the rest cant hit for shit.

Offline Overdriven

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2013, 08:50:35 am »
+4
Rather than nerf HX, buff HA instead. HA are UP in comparison. They also used to be a good counter, back when being able to fire more arrows than an HX actually meant something. Now no matter what you cannot compete with the accuracy/damage on an HX so a counter to HX is lost.

Offline bruce

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2013, 10:37:48 am »
0
And you still think this would stop the whining and bitching?

No, but it would lessen it. It'd be harder to do well with such a build so there'd be HX STFs trolling people.

Whining about ranged cavalry is going to exist as long as there is ranged cavalry.
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Offline Ronin

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2013, 10:45:02 am »
+4
You answered yourself
No, but it would lessen it. It'd be harder to do well with such a build so there'd be HX STFs trolling people.

Whining about ranged cavalry is going to exist as long as there is ranged cavalry.

People will always whine. Why should we listen to them?
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Offline Mr.K.

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2013, 11:29:38 am »
+4
We all like some math, don't we? Let's calculate something. LVL32 HA can reach a 18/24 build with 5 riding. He'll have 173wpf. HA skill points reduce this by 10 per level iirc. PD reduces it by 14*6-(1.4^6)=76wpf afaik. That would give him 173-40-76=57 effective wpf in light armor. This does somewhat increase the damage output, but not by much (some dev can tell the numbers maybe?). He'll be most likely using a +3 tatar bow with +3 bodkin arrows. That gives him a base damage of (1+(6*0.14))*29p=53.36p.

HX regardless of his build, will do 65p damage when loomed. That's 22% more than a lvl32 HA can do. HX also has far better accuracy even with a similar 15/24 lvl30 build. 7/30 is a sniper at full speed. Then factor in gold. HX gear costs 5596+2563+2563=10722. HA gear costs 7896+5058+5058=18012. Now remember that archers have a higher probability (twice?) to have their shit broken and you'll see that HA is three times as expensive. That allows HX to use a armored horse and heavier body armor instead of a rouncey and peasant armor. HX can also have PS, which HA can't before he reaches lvl 34 or so.

HA is seriously UP right now, but I'm fine with that. I understand that most players don't want HAs to be too effective and some of the best HAs already do very well in this mod. It requires a lot of skill to do well as one. However the balance between HA and HX is broken to a point that it makes no sense to use a HA right now unless you are a very very high level player. I'm not good with either class, but I tested the HX yesterday and did about 2-3 times better with +0 xbow gear than I do with my HA alt in +0 gear. I could use a +3 large warhorse, 8k gold armor and not lose money and had a positive KD in full on troll mode. I rarely get a positive KD with anything besides 1H cav and 2H str crutcher...

To summarize: Nerf HX and nerf it hard. Also remove the higher chance of repairs from archers. It serves no purpose and makes things less balanced.

Offline Strudog

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2013, 12:13:43 pm »
-2
We all like some math, don't we? Let's calculate something. LVL32 HA can reach a 18/24 build with 5 riding. He'll have 173wpf. HA skill points reduce this by 10 per level iirc. PD reduces it by 14*6-(1.4^6)=76wpf afaik. That would give him 173-40-76=57 effective wpf in light armor. This does somewhat increase the damage output, but not by much (some dev can tell the numbers maybe?). He'll be most likely using a +3 tatar bow with +3 bodkin arrows. That gives him a base damage of (1+(6*0.14))*29p=53.36p.

HX regardless of his build, will do 65p damage when loomed. That's 22% more than a lvl32 HA can do. HX also has far better accuracy even with a similar 15/24 lvl30 build. 7/30 is a sniper at full speed. Then factor in gold. HX gear costs 5596+2563+2563=10722. HA gear costs 7896+5058+5058=18012. Now remember that archers have a higher probability (twice?) to have their shit broken and you'll see that HA is three times as expensive. That allows HX to use a armored horse and heavier body armor instead of a rouncey and peasant armor. HX can also have PS, which HA can't before he reaches lvl 34 or so.

HA is seriously UP right now, but I'm fine with that. I understand that most players don't want HAs to be too effective and some of the best HAs already do very well in this mod. It requires a lot of skill to do well as one. However the balance between HA and HX is broken to a point that it makes no sense to use a HA right now unless you are a very very high level player. I'm not good with either class, but I tested the HX yesterday and did about 2-3 times better with +0 xbow gear than I do with my HA alt in +0 gear. I could use a +3 large warhorse, 8k gold armor and not lose money and had a positive KD in full on troll mode. I rarely get a positive KD with anything besides 1H cav and 2H str crutcher...

To summarize: Nerf HX and nerf it hard. Also remove the higher chance of repairs from archers. It serves no purpose and makes things less balanced.

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Offline Molly

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2013, 01:11:03 pm »
-1
Achieved something in crpg? I lol'd.

Anyway, HX is easy. Wonder why anyone would think that he/she is the big achiever by playing that class. Pretty much everyone probably tried HX with a STF and noticed that it's easy. Why trying to make it look otherwise is beyond me.

And the problem with ranged (every ranged) was never really about damage but about the high numbers of them at times.
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Offline Miwiw

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2013, 01:18:03 pm »
0
HA needs more than 5 riding. You can't do shit with that low amount only. It must be 7 at least for a 30+ build. 6 is minimum.

I respecced to foot archer yesterday, after I was lancer for 27 levels (again)... Too many HX, can't play as lancer as my destrier which is loomed, dies in 2-4 xbow shots. The Large Warhorse got a little bit more hp but dies too quickly as well. And with that one it's never possible to catch a HX unless he really fails riding his horse.

Anyway, up to the devs.
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Offline Falka

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2013, 01:45:32 pm »
0
Anyway, HX is easy.
Pretty much everyone probably tried HX with a STF and noticed that it's easy.

What exactly is so easy? Riding on pony, shooting and not dying? Ye, u're right. Getting positive KDR? I wouldn't be so sure, but never tried HX, so it's hard to say for me. Getting 6:1 KDR as a HX? Heh, if u think so, try to achieve sth like that.
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Offline LordRichrich

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2013, 01:47:45 pm »
+4
I've been playing a HX alt for a LONG time now, I think I was one of the first few on EU to start playing it properly when it was a "troll class". But that doesn't matter.

With my non-loomed gear and palfrey, I can still kill people and I can ride pretty fast. However, I see HX as a harrasing class. For example, I noticed ArtemRUS was on the enemy team, now he's a very good xbower. Like, amazing. So I waited till he fired, then prevented him from reloading the entire round.
Or if I see a good cav, I'll try to take the horse out.
Ofc, this is how I play. The problems we have arise from what I like to think as "mountedranged2hheroes"


So. We can nerf HX into the ground, this would be a shame but understandable.
However, why not just make all current xbows unusable on horseback and create a NEW xbow that IS usable?

Maybe a small handxbow like the Polish used. So make the same price/a bit cheaper than normal xbow, 2 slots (to stop mounted cav from carrying 3 stacks of bolts) (also could make the light xbow 1 slot again, if this was the reason to change it?)

Stat wise maybe something like:


weight: 3
accuracy: 86
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 136
missile speed: 46
max ammo: 1
thrust damage: 40 pierce
slots: 2

The design here is a slower reloading, less damaging, but more accurate version of the light xbow. Ofc it could be easily changed if the devs thought the best solution was less accuracy etc etc. This is just an idea. It's 12 str to reduce agi whoring and 2 slots to prevent 3 stacks of ranged


Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2013, 02:02:53 pm »
+2
Anyway, HX is easy. Wonder why anyone would think that he/she is the big achiever by playing that class. Pretty much everyone probably tried HX with a STF and noticed that it's easy. Why trying to make it look otherwise is beyond me.

Because it's harder carrying a team as horse ranged than with any other class in the game? I've played every class in the game, most of them for quite a long time, and HX/HA is the hardest ones to do well at, meaning actually carrying a team and doing very well. Doing it as any kind of infantry or melee cavalry is piss easy, ground ranged is harder, but still not very hard, but with horse ranged you're playing the class that can't survive that one mistake and have to play flawlessly to win, even though one stray arrow can bring you down in one shot at all times.

I mostly played infantry, cavalry and ground ranged, but it got boring having nothing to achieve, nowadays I'm playing HX because the skill ceiling is really high, and I enjoy the challenge.
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Offline Mr.K.

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2013, 02:25:04 pm »
+1
Because it's harder carrying a team as horse ranged than with any other class in the game?

Harder than thrower? Or any troll class like 9/30 ninja or 3/39 rondel my old friend? But I agree, horse ranged is quite hard. However HA is much much harder and less effective than HX in my limited experience. Do you think they are balanced now? Does the higher rate of fire of HA justify all the following pros for HX?
*More riding skill
*More armor
*More armored horse (due to less costly equipment)
*Much more accuracy, even at full speed
*Straight and fast projectiles that are harder for the enemy to avoid and easier for you to aim
*More damage at lvl8 than HA at lvl33
*Power Strike so you can fight other cav and/or fight on foot + you can actually have wpf in 1H/2H unlike a HA who relies on archery wpf