Messages

31

Suggestions Corner / Re: Colored padded coif

« on: February 08, 2014, 06:18:36 pm »

Indeed, the default purple color looks kinda... gay.

32

Suggestions Corner / Re: Addition to armour and weapons

« on: February 08, 2014, 12:20:24 pm »

If you don't post the OSP and the url of the page then you are just wasting the time with this thread. Also, there are already armors from different type of cultures, so I really don't understand what do you mean.

33

Suggestions Corner / Re: The Colored Lances Project [Warband]

« on: February 07, 2014, 01:00:58 am »

Sry for double post but seen this:

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Add! 

34

Suggestions Corner / Re: The Colored Lances Project [Warband]

« on: February 07, 2014, 12:58:09 am »

Yeah, they are coming, colored like banner with 7 different bands (black, white, red, green, blue, yellow, grey).

Thank you.

35

Historical Discussion / Re: Battle of Hattin (1187AD)

« on: February 06, 2014, 08:27:48 pm »

Is this the battle in Kingdom of Heaven where the crusader army gets destroyed (they don't actually show it). I assume so as it fits.

Yeh, but they don't show it :C but after that they show the charge of Balian and his cavalry units (I think that it is the battle of Kerak?) btw, that film shows very good the behavior of different sides.

36

Historical Discussion / Re: Battle of Hattin (1187AD)

« on: February 06, 2014, 05:51:09 pm »

In regards to Saladin he was always seen as an honourable opponent.

When he re-captured Jerusalem he spared the lives of the CHristians whereas when the Crusaders had captured the city they had murdered most of the inhabitants.

I remember reading (trying to find it!) that in one of Richard the Lionheart's battles (Siege of Acre possibly) Richard was dehorsed and Saladin sent him a horse from his own personal stable.

Yeah, Saladin was a very intelligent opponent, I didn't know these anecdotes though, thanks for sharing them

37

Historical Discussion / Re: Battle of Hattin (1187AD)

« on: February 06, 2014, 05:38:48 pm »

Again very nice.

But...Wikipedia.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/battles_hattin.html

http://www.historytoday.com/story/13721 (Need a subscription i believe)

Just two that i flicked through

Well, yeah, I always use Wikipedia as the main source web page, but thanks for these pages aswell.

38

General Off Topic / Re: Can any Russian people present their opinions on this?

« on: February 06, 2014, 05:06:29 pm »

ukraine is not figting for gay rights

Ukranians are fighting for a free country based in a democratic system, and in a democratic system gets in all type of beliefs, sexual preferences, freedom of speech, etc...

39

General Off Topic / Re: Russians

« on: February 06, 2014, 05:03:30 pm »

Men beating women lol, GG PRO.

40

Historical Discussion / Battle of Hattin (1187AD)

« on: February 06, 2014, 04:25:18 pm »

Today I bring you a battle dedicated to the users that love the Crusades time period and before reading it and as always, a really immersive music so you can enjoy it a lot more 

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Battle of Hattinvisitors can't see pics , please register or login

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Crusaders, under a rain of arrows in the battle of Hattin

The Battle of Hattin (also known as "The Horns of Hattin" because of a nearby extinct volcano of the same name) took place on Saturday, July 4, 1187, between the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem and the forces of the Ayyubid dynasty.

The Muslim armies under Saladin captured or killed the vast majority of the Crusader forces, removing their capability to wage war. As a direct result of the battle, Islamic forces once again became the eminent military power in the Holy Land, re-conquering Jerusalem and several other Crusader-held cities. These Christian defeats prompted the Third Crusade, which began two years after the Battle of Hattin.

Date    July 4, 1187
Location    Hittin, near Tiberias visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 32°48′13″N 35°26′40″E
Result    Decisive Ayyubid victory

Belligerents

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Kingdom of Jerusalem
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Knights Templar
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Knights Hospitaller
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Order of Saint Lazarus
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Principality of Antioch

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Ayyubids

Commanders

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Guy of Lusignan (Prisoner Of War)
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Raymond III of Tripoli
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Balian of Ibelin
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Gerard de Rideford (Prisoner Of War)
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Raynald of Châtillon (Prisoner Of War)†

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Saladin
Muzaffar al Din Gokbori
Al-Muzaffar Umar
Al-Adil I
Al-Afdal ibn Salah ad-Din

Strength

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Crusaders
20,000 men total

    15,000 infantry
    1,200 knights
    3,000 light cavalry
    500 turcopoles

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Ayyubids
30,000 men total

    12,000 cavalry

Losses

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-Crusaders-
Most of them were killed or captured


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-Ayyubids-
Low amount of casualities

Background

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Guy of Lusignan became king of Jerusalem in 1186, in right of his wife Sibylla, after the death of Sibylla's son Baldwin V. The Kingdom of Jerusalem was at this time divided between the "court faction" of Guy, Sibylla, and relative newcomers to the kingdom such as Raynald of Châtillon, as well as Gerard of Ridefort and the Knights Templar; and the "nobles’ faction", led by Raymond III of Tripoli, who had been regent for the child-king Baldwin V and had opposed the succession of Guy. Disgusted, Raymond of Tripoli watched as his fellow poulain barons hastened to Jerusalem to make obeisance to King Guy and Queen Sibylla. The great lord of Tripoli rode in the opposite direction, up the Jordan River Valley to Tiberias. The situation was so tense that there was almost open warfare between Raymond and Guy, who wanted to besiege Tiberias, a fortress held by Raymond through his wife Eschiva, Princess of Galilee. War was avoided through the mediation of Raymond's supporter Balian of Ibelin.

Meanwhile, the Muslim states surrounding the kingdom had been united during the 1170s and 1180s by Saladin. Saladin had been appointed vizier of Egypt in 1169 and soon came to rule the country as sultan. In 1174, he imposed his rule over Damascus; his authority extended to Aleppo by 1176 and Mosul by 1183. For the first time, the Kingdom of Jerusalem was encircled by Muslim territory united under one ruler. The crusaders defeated Saladin at the Battle of Montgisard in 1177, and in the early 1180s there was an uneasy truce between the two sides, which was broken by the raids of Raynald on Muslim caravans passing through his fief of Oultrejordain. Raynald also threatened to attack Mecca itself.

In April 1187, Raymond agreed a treaty with Saladin. As part of their agreement, Raymond allowed the sultan to send a reconnaissance force to Galilee. At the same time a group led by Balian of Ibelin on Guy's behalf was journeying through the area. Raymond advised Balian to remain in the castle of Afula until the Muslim forces had moved on, however his suggestion was ignored. This embassy was defeated at the Battle of Cresson on May 1, by a small force under the command of Al-Afdal. Raymond, wracked with guilt, reconciled with Guy, who assembled the entire army of the kingdom and marched north to meet Saladin.

The battle

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The crusaders began their march from Sephoria on July 3. Guy would command the center, with Raymond in the vanguard and Balian, Raynald, and the military orders made up the rearguard. The crusaders were almost immediately under harassment from the Muslim skirmishers on horseback.

By noon on that day, the Frankish army had reached a spring at the village of Tur'an some six miles (10 km) from Sephoria. Here, according to Saladin, "The hawks of the Frankish infantry and the eagle of their cavalry hovered around the water."

It was still nine miles (14 km) to Tiberias. Therefore, with only a half day of marching time remaining, any attempt to leave this sure water source to seek that objective the same day, all while under the constant attack of Saladin's army, would be foolhardy. (In 1182 the Frankish army had only advanced 8 miles (13 km) in a full day in face of the enemy and in 1183 Guy had managed but six miles (10 km) in a similar situation, taking a full day.) But, as Saladin wrote, "Satan incited Guy to do what ran counter to his purpose." That is, for unknown reasons, Guy set out that very afternoon, marching his army forward, seeming to head for Tiberias.

When Saladin arrived from the taking of Tiberias, and after the Frankish army left Tur'an, the Muslims began their attack in earnest. Saladin sent the two wings of his army around the Frankish force and seized the spring at Tur'an, thus blocking the Frankish line of retreat. This maneuver would give Saladin's victory.

There was a major change in the Crusaders plan. Believing that the Crusaders could not fight its way across Saladin's front, Raymond persuaded Guy to veer to the left and head for the springs of Hattin only 6 miles (9.7 km) away. From there they could march down to Tiberias the following day.

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In the ensuing struggle, the Frankish rearguard was forced to a standstill by continuous attacks, thus halting the whole army on the arid plateau near the village of Meskana. The crusaders were thus forced to make camp surrounded by the Muslims. They now had no water nor any hope of receiving supplies or reinforcements. Guy hoped that his men could make a dash for the Spring of Hattin the following morning.

While the Crusaders gasped with thirst, the Muslim army had a caravan of camels carrying goatskins of water up from Lake Tiberias (now known as the Sea of Galilee).

Baha ad-Din ibn Shaddad summarizes the situation of the Frankish army:

    They were closely beset as in a noose, while still marching on as though being driven to death that they could see before them, convinced of their doom and destruction and themselves aware that the following day they would be visiting their graves.

On the morning of July 4, the crusaders were blinded by smoke from fires that Saladin's forces had set to add to the Frankish army's misery, through which the Muslim cavalry particularly the divisions commanded by Gokbori pelted them with 400 loads of arrows that had been brought up during the night. Gerard and Raynald advised Guy to form battle lines and attack, which was done by Guy's brother Amalric. Raymond led the first division with Raymond of Antioch, the son of Bohemund III of Antioch, while Balian and Joscelin III of Edessa formed the rearguard. While this was being arranged, five of Raymond's knights defected to Saladin and told them of the dire situation in the crusader camp.

Thirsty and demoralized, the crusaders broke camp and changed direction for the springs of Hattin, but their ragged approach was attacked by Saladin's army which blocked the route forward and any possible retreat. Count Raymond launched two charges in an attempt to break through to the water supply at the Lake Tiberias. The second of these saw him cut off from the main army and forced to retreat.

After Raymond escaped, Guy's position was now even more desperate. Most of the crusader infantry had effectively deserted by moving on to the Horns of Hattin to escape the storm of destruction. Guy attempted to pitch the tents again to block the Muslim cavalry, but without infantry protection the knights' horses were cut down by Muslim archers and the cavalry was forced to fight on foot. Then they too retreated to the Horns.

Now the crusaders were surrounded and, despite three desperate charges on Saladin's position, were eventually defeated. An eyewitness account of this is given by Saladin's 17-year-old son, al-Afdal. It is quoted by Muslim chronicler Ibn al-Athir:

    When the king of the Franks [Guy] was on the hill with that band, they made a formidable charge against the Muslims facing them, so that they drove them back to my father [Saladin]. I looked towards him and he was overcome by grief and his complexion pale. He took hold of his beard and advanced, crying out "Give the lie to the Devil!" The Muslims rallied, returned to the fight and climbed the hill. When I saw that the Franks withdrew, pursued by the Muslims, I shouted for joy, "We have beaten them!" But the Franks rallied and charged again like the first time and drove the Muslims back to my father. He acted as he had done on the first occasion and the Muslims turned upon the Franks and drove them back to the hill. I again shouted, "We have beaten them!" but my father rounded on me and said, "Be quiet! We have not beaten them until that tent [Guy's] falls." As he was speaking to me, the tent fell. The sultan dismounted, prostrated himself in thanks to God Almighty and wept for joy.

Aftermath

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The Muslim forces had captured the royal tent of King Guy, as well as the True Cross after the Bishop of Acre was killed in the fighting. Prisoners included Guy, his brother Amalric II, Raynald de Chatillon, William V of Montferrat, Gerard de Ridefort, Humphrey IV of Toron, Hugh of Jabala, Plivain of Botron, Hugh of Gibelet, and many others. Perhaps only as few as 3,000 Christians escaped the defeat. The anonymous text De Expugnatione Terrae Sanctae per Saladinum Libellus claims that Raymond, Joscelin, Balian, and Reginald of Sidon fled the field in the middle of the battle, trampling "the Christians, the Turks, and the Cross" in the process, but this is not corroborated by other accounts and reflects the author's hostility to the Poleins.

The exhausted captives were brought to Saladin's tent, where Guy was given a goblet of iced water as a sign of Saladin's generosity. When Guy passed the goblet to his fellow captive Raynald, Saladin allowed the old man (Raynald was about 60) to drink but shortly afterwards said that he had not offered water to Raynald and thus was not bound by the Muslim rules of hospitality. When Saladin accused Raynald of being an oath breaker, Raynald replied "kings have always acted thus. I did nothing more." Saladin then executed Raynald himself, beheading him with his sword. Guy fell to his knees at the sight of Raynald's corpse but Saladin bade him to rise, saying, "It is not the wont of kings, to kill kings; but that man had transgressed all bounds, and therefore did I treat him thus. This man was only killed because of his maleficence and perfidy."

The True Cross was fixed upside down on a lance and sent to Damascus. Several of Saladin's men now left the army, taking Frankish prisoners with them as slaves.

On Sunday, July 5, Saladin traveled the six miles (10 km) to Tiberias and, there, Countess Eschiva surrendered the citadel of the fortress. She was allowed to leave for Tripoli with all her family, followers, and possessions. Raymond of Tripoli, having escaped the battle, died of pleurisy later in 1187.

The executions (one of only two executions of prisoners ordered by Saladin) were by beheading. Saint Nicasius, a Knight Hospitaller venerated as a Christian martyr, is said to have been one of the victims.

    "Saladin ordered that they should be beheaded, choosing to have them dead rather than in prison. With him was a whole band of scholars and sufis and a certain number of devout men and ascetics, each begged to be allowed to kill one of them, and drew his sword and rolled back his sleeve. Saladin, his face joyful, was sitting on his dais, the unbelievers showed black despair" – Imad ed-Din, Saladin's Secretary

Guy was taken to Damascus as a prisoner and the others were eventually ransomed.

In fielding an army of 20,000 men, the Crusaders states had reduced the garrisons of their castles and fortified settlements. The heavy defeat at Hattin meant there was little reserve with which to defend against Saladin's forces. The importance of the defeat is demonstrated by the fact that in its aftermath a host of settlements and fortifications were captured by Saladin's forces. By mid-September, Saladin had taken Acre, Nablus, Jaffa, Toron, Sidon, Beirut, and Ascalon. Tyre was saved by the fortuitous arrival of Conrad of Montferrat. Jerusalem was defended by Queen Sibylla, Patriarch Heraclius, and Balian, who subsequently negotiated its surrender to Saladin on October 2 (see Siege of Jerusalem).

According to the chronicler Ernoul, news of the defeat caused Pope Urban III to die of shock.

News of the disastrous defeat at Hattin was brought to Europe by Joscius, Archbishop of Tyre, as well as other pilgrims and travelers. Plans were immediately made for a new crusade; Pope Gregory VIII issued the bull Audita tremendi, and in England and France the Saladin tithe was enacted to fund expenses.

The subsequent Third Crusade, however, did not get underway until 1189, being made up of three separate contingents led by Philip Augustus, Richard Lionheart, and Frederick Barbarossa.

Panorama of the battlefield in the 21st century

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Videos

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Sources:

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hattin

Greetings! :^P

41

Historical Discussion / Re: Battle of Hastings (1066AD)

« on: February 06, 2014, 09:38:44 am »

I'm fairly sure most academic literature agrees that the notion of Harold being shot through the eye is artistic misinterpretation. None of the documentary evidence from the period supports this.

Furthermore historians have long since agreed that the retreats from the hill were part of the Norman cavalry tactics that were intentional.  They feigned retreats multiple times in an attempts to draw the Anglo-Saxon shield wall down from the hill. This was a tactical victory, not one of chance.

My recommendation for looking at this battle, and the surrounding Norman invasion is Steven Morillo's The Battle of Hastings. Link.  Unfortunately that doesnt give you access to R.A. Brown's article which gives a great account and analysis of the battle based on a wide variety of sources and interpretations.

Thanks for sharing the book, looks interesting 

42

General Off Topic / Re: Can any Russian people present their opinions on this?

« on: February 06, 2014, 09:35:24 am »

The problem of Russia like many others post soviet independent countries is that most of them are Orthodox countries, this means that the Orthodox church has a really huge power in the social part of these countries. This religion is very omophobic and not tolerant to other sexual preferences and that is why many Russians hate gays, bis, etc... because the church educates the people there in a wrong and intolerant way.

Also, the other problem is that Russia's government is a dictatorship and a mafia that controlls the country. The russians should come out and protest like the Ukranians are doing right now fighting for a democratic country, they should be against those corrupts that are in their government because if not, they will have dictators by decades.

43

Game Balance Discussion / Re: Nerf daggers, specially the rondel dagger.

« on: February 05, 2014, 04:53:24 pm »

I use a +3 long dagger and it takes me about 3 stabs to kill a plated guy, (1 in the spine + 2 more anywhere else). seems fair since i cant block and im only good at chambering when im high.

3 hits is fair with a little dagger against a heavy plate armored guy? seriously? The rondel dagger has 110 speed and 27 pierce damage!!! The realistic damage would be like 17 pierce for rondel dagger, 16 for other daggers, this, actually would has sense.

44

Game Balance Discussion / Nerf daggers, specially the rondel dagger.

« on: February 05, 2014, 04:36:56 pm »

I have a character with a plate armor, a full set of heavy armor and 6 IF! and a guy with a rondel dagger killed me with 2 hits! wtf! plz, nerf daggers.


Now seriously, the daggers should be useful against cloth armored characters or medium to low armored ones and not against full plate armored ones, I mean... 2 hits against a fattie! 2 hits with a little dagger and BUM! dead!

45

General Off Topic / Re: Torture for colorblinds

« on: February 05, 2014, 03:10:52 pm »

Mine:

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