cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Rhekimos on February 16, 2014, 04:24:40 pm

Title: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Rhekimos on February 16, 2014, 04:24:40 pm

Edit: Fixed now, thanks.

Update: Stagger can (apparently the correct term for what causes your movement to stop) still happen, but as of now it seems very rare. And tweaks can still happen.
 
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: 722_ on February 16, 2014, 04:32:55 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enSYlCEz5VI

Edit: [youtube] tags don't work anymore?

Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Rhekimos on February 16, 2014, 04:34:02 pm
Neat. Must've been the https://.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: 722_ on February 16, 2014, 04:34:59 pm
Neat. Must've been the https://.


yeah, you need to take the s out for some reason
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Mustikki on February 16, 2014, 04:35:00 pm
Neat. Must've been the https://.

[youtube][/youtube]
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Rhekimos on February 16, 2014, 04:41:52 pm

yeah, you need to take the s out for some reason

Yup.

[youtube][/youtube]

Thanks, but it didn't work with my link.

See:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enSYlCEz5VI[/youtube]
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Tydeus on February 16, 2014, 04:48:36 pm
Ranged and pole stun removed for the lower body(torso still gets stunned) so they act the same as 1h or 2h hits. Stagger still exists for ranged, but they have to do more damage than before, to pass the damage requirement.

Values might change later today, though.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: cmp on February 16, 2014, 05:00:06 pm
Pretty sure he means the stagger (which was not removed as Tydeus said). The stun wasn't removed either, it was changed from lock-in-place to regular stun.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Rhekimos on February 16, 2014, 05:09:08 pm
The locking-in-place, the movement effect is gone for good? Am I reading this right?
That is what I meant by ranged stun in the title.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: cmp on February 16, 2014, 05:11:58 pm
It's gone from stun (the short duration one), but not from stagger (the extremely obnoxious long duration one).
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Utrakil on February 16, 2014, 05:14:49 pm
can anyone specify the reduced weapon lengh to rear horses please.
and specify the new penalty if 2h is used with shield please.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Rhekimos on February 16, 2014, 05:15:30 pm
It's gone from stun (the short duration one), but not from stagger (the extremely obnoxious long duration one).

Interesting, thanks. I playtested a little and didn't see any ranged hits stop my character or others, but I might have jumped to conclusions.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: San on February 16, 2014, 05:17:34 pm
The one weekend I am afk, lol. Need to see how things work out.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Grumbs on February 16, 2014, 05:22:02 pm
Saved the notes incase they don't post them

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: no_rules_just_play on February 16, 2014, 05:22:28 pm
fisting someone in the back (with enough dmg) makes him get knocked down :)
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Kafein on February 16, 2014, 05:26:02 pm
BLAME TYDEUS

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Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Adamar on February 16, 2014, 05:26:43 pm
It's gone from stun (the short duration one), but not from stagger (the extremely obnoxious long duration one).

I've been testing with my 18 24 longbower, and I've not hit a stagger, or been dealt one yet.

The change looks good though, can we have our mobility back now?
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Utrakil on February 16, 2014, 05:34:21 pm
Saved the notes incase they don't post them

(click to show/hide)
they are posted in the WS2 section / Version history
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Tzar on February 16, 2014, 05:42:31 pm
Ranged and pole stun removed so they act the same as 1h or 2h hits. Stagger still exists for ranged, but they have to do more damage than before, to pass the damage requirement.

Values might change later today, though.

About time :)

Good initiative Tydeus  :wink:  :arrow: "You have balls, i like balls"
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Adamar on February 16, 2014, 05:48:22 pm
Don't get too excited guys, you'll be probably getting shot a lot more now. Because when people stopped moving after getting shot, many incoming projectiles missed because the predicted path was interrupted. But with constant motion, your path will remain predictable for any ranged targeting you. One less distraction for ranged.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 16, 2014, 05:53:38 pm
more indirect nerfs to my throwing daggers, i r saddest
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Knitler on February 16, 2014, 06:01:29 pm
- tweaked thrust sweetspots

When i started the launcher and saw an update i´ve read it ... thought like;"Nah Shields nice fix, stun... i dont care, seems like an good one"

Didnt really realized the tweaked thrust sweetspot ... but when i joined and played for abit i just got mad .... 9 out of 10 thrusts are softspots on ninjaclothing!?
And the worst thing is: ITS NOT AFFECTING 2H!
Its the first time im seriously disappointed not like after every nerf: Gnaah im getting nerfed blabla, but ill keep playing anyway.
This time its just ... you made an huuuuge mistake... a guy who was on teamspeak with me couldnt thrust an sumpter horse with his german poleaxe, why? He glanced ...

I mean i got used to it that 2h were superior to my weapons in all belongings ... they are having an longer thrust and you can spam it, overall an easy class which i regret to play ... but now im just softspotting everyone at every range close or far. Its embarassing.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Utrakil on February 16, 2014, 06:08:22 pm
Tydeus!
dont worry I don't want to plame you. I only want to request some numbers and graphs about the stab tweak, lenght for rearing horses, new 2h to 1h malus etc.
You gave some nice graphs the last time.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: San on February 16, 2014, 06:19:22 pm
more indirect nerfs to my throwing daggers, i r saddest

The final tweak to ranged soak/reduce should have buffed low req throwing. (Base damage up by like a point or two, but still).

 Not sure how I feel about the polearm change, was used to how it was for so long. Won't be able to play until tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: cmp on February 16, 2014, 06:24:22 pm
I've been testing with my 18 24 longbower, and I've not hit a stagger, or been dealt one yet.

Damage threshold has been reduced a bit in the next update (also reduced even more + increased chance for leg hits).
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Butan on February 16, 2014, 06:24:31 pm
Fist chambers still not re-implemented?

Le disapoint  :|



I applaud the other changes.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Fips on February 16, 2014, 06:25:40 pm
- tweaked thrust sweetspots

When i started the launcher and saw an update i´ve read it ... thought like;"Nah Shields nice fix, stun... i dont care, seems like an good one"

Didnt really realized the tweaked thrust sweetspot ... but when i joined and played for abit i just got mad .... 9 out of 10 thrusts are softspots on ninjaclothing!?
And the worst thing is: ITS NOT AFFECTING 2H!
Its the first time im seriously disappointed not like after every nerf: Gnaah im getting nerfed blabla, but ill keep playing anyway.
This time its just ... you made an huuuuge mistake... a guy who was on teamspeak with me couldnt thrust an sumpter horse with his german poleaxe, why? He glanced ...

I mean i got used to it that 2h were superior to my weapons in all belongings ... they are having an longer thrust and you can spam it, overall an easy class which i regret to play ... but now im just softspotting everyone at every range close or far. Its embarassing.

Dem tears are so delicious.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Panos_ on February 16, 2014, 06:28:27 pm
WAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAA PLEASE BUFF MY AWLPIKE STABS MORE BECAUSE I`M A SHIT PLAYER AND I CAN ONLY ABUSE THE AWLPIKE STAB WAAAAAAAAAAA WWWWWAAAAAAAAAAWAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Knitler on February 16, 2014, 06:30:12 pm
WAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAA PLEASE BUFF MY AWLPIKE STABS MORE BECAUSE I`M A SHIT PLAYER AND I CAN ONLY ABUSE THE AWLPIKE STAB WAAAAAAAAAAA WWWWWAAAAAAAAAAWAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Dem tears are so delicious.

Could you stop beeing total dickheads? I dont care about a buff, or my weapon. I just want to make such stupid patches gone, Back ladders - no fistchambering cause its idiotic ... and that patch is just bad.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Panos_ on February 16, 2014, 06:31:29 pm
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Sorry mate, I don`t speak Bitch language.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Grumbs on February 16, 2014, 06:33:51 pm
You will probably adjust so you leave a bit more delay before you aim the stab after releasing. After using the long awlpike a bit I didn't really notice a difference but will test more
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Fips on February 16, 2014, 06:39:23 pm
Could you stop beeing total dickheads? I dont care about a buff, or my weapon. I just want to make such stupid patches gone, Back ladders - no fistchambering cause its idiotic ... and that patch is just bad.


You'll be able to abuse that damn awlpike just like you always did in no time anyway.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: jtobiasm on February 16, 2014, 06:40:59 pm
Whens the patch to stop 1h cav swinging through their horse or the 2h lol stab nerf?
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Fips on February 16, 2014, 06:42:15 pm
Whens the patch to stop 1h cav swinging through their horse or the 2h lol stab nerf?

Not being able to swing through the horse would literally kill 1hcav.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Macropus on February 16, 2014, 06:42:51 pm
Whens the patch to stop 1h cav swinging through their horse or the 2h lol stab nerf?
The 2h stab doesn't really need a nerf. Its sweetspots could be adjusted (with reducing the thrust stun accordingly), but with the huge stun they get now there's totally no reason to consider 2h stab OP.

Tydeus!
dont worry I don't want to plame you. I only want to request some numbers and graphs about the stab tweak, lenght for rearing horses, new 2h to 1h malus etc.
You gave some nice graphs the last time.
I second this. Some more detailed info would be nice.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: jtobiasm on February 16, 2014, 06:45:32 pm
Its sweetspots could be adjusted

Which would nerf 2h.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Rebelyell on February 16, 2014, 06:45:41 pm
- tweaked thrust sweetspots

When i started the launcher and saw an update i´ve read it ... thought like;"Nah Shields nice fix, stun... i dont care, seems like an good one"

Didnt really realized the tweaked thrust sweetspot ... but when i joined and played for abit i just got mad .... 9 out of 10 thrusts are softspots on ninjaclothing!?
And the worst thing is: ITS NOT AFFECTING 2H!
Its the first time im seriously disappointed not like after every nerf: Gnaah im getting nerfed blabla, but ill keep playing anyway.
This time its just ... you made an huuuuge mistake... a guy who was on teamspeak with me couldnt thrust an sumpter horse with his german poleaxe, why? He glanced ...

I mean i got used to it that 2h were superior to my weapons in all belongings ... they are having an longer thrust and you can spam it, overall an easy class which i regret to play ... but now im just softspotting everyone at every range close or far. Its embarassing.
haha
cant abuse stab 24/7?

that taste soooooo good man
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Blackbow on February 16, 2014, 06:46:28 pm

tydeus you are the best dev ever !!!

when are you going to fix bows ?
longbow have lower range (illogic and not accurate historicaly) when a nomad bow have the bigest range ....

you said it's for simulate heavier arrows on long bow and lighter on nomad ... but we already have 4 kinds of arrows who are completly useless because everybody use bodkins ...

could you stop developing for this mod plz ? because patch after patch it's worst than before ...

Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Panos_ on February 16, 2014, 06:46:54 pm
haha
cant abuse stab 24/7?

that taste soooooo good man

lol seriously bobby?

I cant believe you guys, a longsword abuser is accusing an awlpike abuser of abusing  :lol:


And then you blame me for trolling you guys  :lol:
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Rebelyell on February 16, 2014, 06:49:11 pm
lol seriously bobby?

I cant believe you guys, a longsword abuser is accusing an awlpike abuser of abusing  :lol:


And then you blame me for trolling you guys  :lol:
I am lancer biach now
I dont even have 2h alt now


Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on February 16, 2014, 06:52:03 pm
dont agree
dont mind either

*opens beer, makes popcorn*

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: BlindGuy on February 16, 2014, 06:55:34 pm
Panos stfu you get couched by Casimir. Untill you have screenshot where you kill him with a punch, you may not come back to our teamspeak.  :wink:

back on topic: Im downloading now, while I think some numbers would be nice, Im afraid this will nerf my bamboo spear... I love my fishingpole  :cry: Its gonna need a blunt buff to overhead if it cannot be used to stab in melee anymore (as in, not just nice 2metre away backstab ganking)

Also, seems legit that if they cannot stagger with tiny bows so easily, cannot archers have their arrow weight reduced a littlebit?

Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Macropus on February 16, 2014, 07:04:17 pm
Which would nerf 2h.
Why?
Its sweetspots could be adjusted (with reducing the thrust stun accordingly)
Stab is VERY risky for twohanders unless you use very fast one like longsword, HBS or katana.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Tydeus on February 16, 2014, 07:41:21 pm
Alright, give me a bit and I'll give graphs. For anyone wondering by the way, the thrust sweetspots affect all classes equally, regardless of what knittler says in this thread(Sorry, but it's true. I suggest practicing in the duel server to get your timing down).
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Panos_ on February 16, 2014, 07:47:54 pm
Quitte sad to see that the polearm lock on spot stagger was removed, basically 2h class and polearm class have no difference now.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Lord_Kitazawa_of_Voodoo on February 16, 2014, 07:51:44 pm
Ranged and pole stun removed for the lower body(torso still gets stunned) so they act the same as 1h or 2h hits. Stagger still exists for ranged, but they have to do more damage than before, to pass the damage requirement.

Values might change later today, though.

Shot someone with my long bow, they staggered. Shot someone with a agiwhore nomad bow, and they kept running towards me. This is one of the best changes to the game since I've started playing.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Alaire on February 16, 2014, 07:54:26 pm
And thus, enters the zombie age of man(and women).
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Elindor on February 16, 2014, 07:55:08 pm
Have to get in there and try it out, but thanks in advance for these changes Tydeus...seem like good ones - all around thrust adjustment especially.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Andswaru on February 16, 2014, 08:18:54 pm
Well looks like people are playing atm in large amounts, so its looking good.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Butan on February 16, 2014, 08:51:43 pm
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Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Blackbow on February 16, 2014, 08:54:02 pm
i remember when jump shot got removed ppl said it's not realistic
but getting shot in legs and keep running like a rabbit is realistic ? without losing any speed just for few sec ?
so now all inf are like terminators ?

this change was not needed !

ppl cry about amount of ranged, about archers the first bigest mistake was to give normal bows same damage as a mw one. you should start to fix mistake did in past before add some news ...

about decreasing zoom gonna make more team hit coz it's hard to reconize team mate from far distance ...  what a stupid change again ...
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Johammeth on February 16, 2014, 09:14:39 pm
Groovy.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: tisjester on February 16, 2014, 09:37:48 pm
This is best.
Great job :)

Maybe the nerds will stop bitching about ranged so much now.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Angantyr on February 16, 2014, 09:39:00 pm
154 on EU1 right now, 76 on EU2.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: gallonigher on February 16, 2014, 09:43:06 pm
Well the patch looks good on paper and I like a lot of the changes but i still need to see how it performs real-time before I pass judgement.  Either way, I appreciate the work still being done with this mod
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Adamar on February 16, 2014, 09:46:27 pm
i remember when jump shot got removed ppl said it's not realistic
but getting shot in legs and keep running like a rabbit is realistic ? without losing any speed just for few sec ?
so now all inf are like terminators ?

this change was not needed !

ppl cry about amount of ranged, about archers the first bigest mistake was to give normal bows same damage as a mw one. you should start to fix mistake did in past before add some news ...

about decreasing zoom gonna make more team hit coz it's hard to reconize team mate from far distance ...  what a stupid change again ...

Damage threshold has been reduced a bit in the next update (also reduced even more + increased chance for leg hits).
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: bagge on February 16, 2014, 10:00:39 pm
154 on EU1 right now, 76 on EU2.

Because Strategus is starting. These numbers wont be the same in a week.

Hilarious patch btw. I shot a guy in the head but he kept moving towards me like it was nothing, no stun nada zip. I even shot a guy that were swinging his weapon, but no stun no nothing so his attack wasnt even cancelled (yes, I shot him in the stomach).

Fuck this
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Moncho on February 16, 2014, 10:09:49 pm
How do these changes affect crossbow? Or was archery nerfed again while crossbow was left untouched?
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: jtobiasm on February 16, 2014, 10:15:04 pm
Fuck this

2nd best Archer in c-rpg can't even be arsed with archery.

No hope for us archers ;(
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Thorondor on February 16, 2014, 10:37:06 pm
devs really intend to nerf archery till they all quit the game. thats the only logical explanation of this stupid stun-removing.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Osiris on February 16, 2014, 10:40:34 pm
i remember when jump shot got removed ppl said it's not realistic
but getting shot in legs and keep running like a rabbit is realistic ? without losing any speed just for few sec ?
so now all inf are like terminators ?

this change was not needed !

ppl cry about amount of ranged, about archers the first bigest mistake was to give normal bows same damage as a mw one. you should start to fix mistake did in past before add some news ...

about decreasing zoom gonna make more team hit coz it's hard to reconize team mate from far distance ...  what a stupid change again ...

oh noes now an arrow staggers as much as a big fuck off axe to the head! :D seriously from what i can read your weapon now has the same hit effect as any other weapon unless you hit really hard then they stagger?


Why should archers have stagger when no one else does btw? what reasoning do you have for wanting it
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Ronin on February 16, 2014, 10:41:54 pm
devs really intend to nerf archery till they all quit the game. thats the only logical explanation of this stupid stun-removing.
It is already started
http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/gold-masterworks-and-loompoints-give-away/
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Osiris on February 16, 2014, 10:44:04 pm
meh i still fear crpg archers more than native ones :D

Archers shouldn't have stun just like they shouldn't be able to kite forever, what they should be able to do is melee back pretty well like they used to :P
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Tydeus on February 16, 2014, 11:07:07 pm
I even shot a guy that were swinging his weapon, but no stun no nothing so his attack wasnt even cancelled (yes, I shot him in the stomach).
I haven't been able to replicate this or even see it done. Likely what happened is the arrow landed JUST after his swing hit you, so close that it looked like they were at the same time. His swing would have still landed, even with the old stun mechanics.

Stagger requirements are likely a bit too high and the chance maybe a bit low still. Archery is what I'm testing atm, so we'll see. Probably going to need to do something to the formula.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Ronin on February 16, 2014, 11:12:44 pm
I haven't been able to replicate this or even see it done. Likely what happened is the arrow landed JUST after his swing hit you, so close that it looked like they were at the same time. His swing would have still landed, even with the old stun mechanics.

Stagger requirements are likely a bit too high and the chance maybe a bit low still. Archery is what I'm testing atm, so we'll see. Probably going to need to do something to the formula.
This new stagger-stun reducement thingy might cause some problems. A guy with plate armor may reduce the incoming damage so much, so in close range even if the archer hit the enemy it might not stagger the plated guy. So guess what, there won't be enough time for archer to switch to a melee weapon.

These two changes (stagger reducement and armor&speed bonus formula changes) came simultaneously, and I hope you are aware that they amplify the effectiveness of each other. I like the changes from a game design perspective, but something else must be given in exchange in my opinion. You are meddling with the game balance too much while improving the game.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Angantyr on February 16, 2014, 11:13:33 pm
Because Strategus is starting. These numbers wont be the same in a week.
Yeah, didn't mention player numbers as in reference to the opening post, though it may have seemed so.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Kafein on February 16, 2014, 11:13:40 pm
Seriously guys, you always say I'm whining but look at you now.

I have a list of things to say in case something like this happens so here it comes:


In other news, I'm not exactly fond of the new stab sweetspots but it's far from the end of the world. My main problem with it is that it is basically a huge buff to armor. Stabs were definitely too strong, but maybe they could be nerfed with respect to swings in some other way that doesn't increase the power of armor so much. In other words, maybe swings could get a buff instead, or a mix of a stab nerf + swing buff.


Finally, if you get hit by a melee player that you just shot because he was not staggered, that means you should have used your melee weapon instead.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Osiris on February 16, 2014, 11:14:50 pm
This new stagger-stun reducement thingy might cause some problems. A guy with plate armor may reduce the incoming damage so much, so in close range even if the archer hit the enemy it might not stagger the plated guy. So guess what, there won't be enough time for archer to switch to a melee weapon.

These two changes (stagger reducement and armor&speed bonus formula changes) came simultaneously, and I hope you are aware that they amplify the effectiveness of each other.

boo hoo :D don't keep shooting until the plated guy is in melee range? maybe change to melee before he is about to slap you in the face
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: jtobiasm on February 16, 2014, 11:15:34 pm
I haven't been able to replicate this or even see it done. Likely what happened is the arrow landed JUST after his swing hit you, so close that it looked like they were at the same time. His swing would have still landed, even with the old stun mechanics.

Stagger requirements are likely a bit too high and the chance maybe a bit low still. Archery is what I'm testing atm, so we'll see. Probably going to need to do something to the formula.

Why don't you ask an experienced archer aka bagge to see what needs fixing with archery. Instead of doing these bullshit changes?
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Ronin on February 16, 2014, 11:22:33 pm
boo hoo :D don't keep shooting until the plated guy is in melee range? maybe change to melee before he is about to slap you in the face
I just updated the post actually.

In general, I think archers shooting in very close range is absolutely bullshit. A cavalry coming into close doesn't have time of 1 seconds to lower his shield to hit the archer. After this change, now they will be able to. Which is really really nice. Cavalry can be a decent counter to archers. I really like this change personally, and I think it will improve the game. This can force the archers to also carefully plan their positioning, just like a good infantry player should be doing.

The balance must be restored a bit, that's all. By other changes. Maybe better stats in melee, for archers?
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Tydeus on February 16, 2014, 11:37:23 pm
This new stagger-stun reducement thingy might cause some problems. A guy with plate armor may reduce the incoming damage so much, so in close range even if the archer hit the enemy it might not stagger the plated guy. So guess what, there won't be enough time for archer to switch to a melee weapon.

These two changes (stagger reducement and armor&speed bonus formula changes) came simultaneously, and I hope you are aware that they amplify the effectiveness of each other. I like the changes from a game design perspective, but something else must be given in exchange in my opinion. You are meddling with the game balance too much while improving the game.
Yeah, definitely. To be honest, I don't like using effective damage nearly as much as I don't like using raw damage. There are any number of reimbursements we could give for ranged, most notably reduced weight(will probably happen), but faster draw speed is an option on the table as well, among many other things. The formula still needs tweaked, regardless.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: cmp on February 16, 2014, 11:39:32 pm
I haven't been able to replicate this or even see it done.

You haven't been able to replicate it because it's bullshit - the attack interruption part hasn't been touched in any of the recent patches.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Grumbs on February 16, 2014, 11:46:11 pm
Yeah, definitely. To be honest, I don't like using effective damage nearly as much as I don't like using raw damage. There are any number of reimbursements we could give for ranged, most notably reduced weight(will probably happen), but faster draw speed is an option on the table as well, among many other things. The formula still needs tweaked, regardless.

The old cRPG ranged shuffle.

Nerf one thing and buff another. Result = ranged still OP
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Jack1 on February 16, 2014, 11:54:58 pm
In my opinion there are two things that should have changed about this patch:

Ranged stagger should have been gross damage and not net damage.

Stabs should have not have changed in terms of sweet spots but insted being more based off of strength and less of speed. I don't think that an agi stabber should be able to do nearly as much damage as a str stabber.

P.s. My Bec shouldn't rear horses.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Ronin on February 17, 2014, 12:51:27 am
Yeah, definitely. To be honest, I don't like using effective damage nearly as much as I don't like using raw damage. There are any number of reimbursements we could give for ranged, most notably reduced weight(will probably happen), but faster draw speed is an option on the table as well, among many other things. The formula still needs tweaked, regardless.
In my opinion, faster draw speed might not be that necessary. If Cavalry and Infantry class requires some estimation skills, Archer&Crossbowman should require some too (not saying it doesn't, but it's more cruical for classes which rely on hand to hand combat). Otherwise, the surprise effect will be lessened in favor of archers&crossbowmen again, which takes away nearly all the point. But a bit lesser weight for arrows might be good, that extra weight does some difference in close combat.

Again, it's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Jack1 on February 17, 2014, 12:54:10 am
In my opinion, faster draw speed might not be that necessary. If Cavalry and Infantry class requires some estimation skills, Archer&Crossbowman should require some too (not saying it doesn't, but it's more cruical for classes which rely on hand to hand combat). Otherwise, the surprise effect will be lessened in favor of archers&crossbowmen again, which takes away nearly all the point. But a bit lesser weight for arrows might be good, that extra weight does some difference in close combat.

Again, it's just my opinion.

In NA we have a guy named TRUE candle who can hit 1/4 health while outrunning my 6 athletics. If the weight is changed I'm afraid nobody will catch him.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Ronin on February 17, 2014, 01:03:22 am
In NA we have a guy named TRUE candle who can hit 1/4 health while outrunning my 6 athletics. If the weight is changed I'm afraid nobody will catch him.
Hmm I'm not very familiar with the NA meta, but what are his stats and your stats? I also assume he takes only 1 quiver of arrows.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Jack1 on February 17, 2014, 02:08:26 am
Hmm I'm not very familiar with the NA meta, but what are his stats and your stats? I also assume he takes only 1 quiver of arrows.

24-18 and he has two quivers of bodkins. He doesn't talk at all so IDK what his stats are. The current NA meta is high agi polearms. Particularly warspears.

Edit: I have 64 body armor on average and he uses a nomad bow and possibly 3 quivers since he has no sidearm
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Adamar on February 17, 2014, 05:02:26 am
Seriously guys, you always say I'm whining but look at you now.

I have a list of things to say in case something like this happens so here it comes:

  • Deal with it
  • Get a shield lol
  • Use tactics
  • Use teamwork
  • Use map design at your advantage
  • Learn to dodge
  • Every class has counters
  • The class that is killing you is hard to play
  • If you don't like the game, you can always quit. We both know that won't happen
  • You anti-melee lobbyists sound like a broken record



I'd say ranged have always dealt with it, or at least a lot more than you would.
Shields are meant to handle ranged, that solution is for you.
Ranged IS a tactical class, and naturally attuned to it.
Inf refuses to teamwork, but ranged have generally helped each other, as you often point out.
Ranged first priority is finding good shooting spots, but they keep getting ironed out by certain individuals for your benefit.
Dodging isn't as useful in melee as it is against ranged, and isn't worth crap anyway with the weight nerf.
Melee is hard to play if you're a scrub.
People do quit the game because of nerfs, as intended.
Ranged isn't particularly anti-melee, since melee remains the primary skill in the game and used by all.

Those things apply to melee. Learn the game.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: PsychoTwins on February 17, 2014, 05:43:50 am
Why don't you ask a experienced biased archer aka bagge to see what needs fixing with archery. Instead of doing these bullshit changes?

Most dedicated archer/thrower/2h or whatever won't say their class needs a nerf when it does. This patch basically makes it so agiwhore archers that do little to no dmg cant annoy a full plate anymore and makes archers have to use better bows to do well. An archer using a nomad bow and complaining about it doing no dmg is like a polearm guy using a shortened spear, both are faster than the higher tier weapons but are supposed to be less dmg.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Ronin on February 17, 2014, 10:03:09 am
24-18 and he has two quivers of bodkins. He doesn't talk at all so IDK what his stats are. The current NA meta is high agi polearms. Particularly warspears.

Edit: I have 64 body armor on average and he uses a nomad bow and possibly 3 quivers since he has no sidearm
This is just strange in many ways to be honest. Low damage bows like Nomad Bow has been hit the hardest and it shouldn't do much damage to someone like you at all; unless hitting the head. 3 Quiver of arrows and outrunning people sounds like dark magic, it's probably a false assumption.

Given he has no sidearm, he should be cavalry meat at best even if very effective against infantry.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Kafein on February 17, 2014, 10:26:54 am

I'd say ranged have always dealt with it, or at least a lot more than you would.
Shields are meant to handle ranged, that solution is for you.
Ranged IS a tactical class, and naturally attuned to it.
Inf refuses to teamwork, but ranged have generally helped each other, as you often point out.
Ranged first priority is finding good shooting spots, but they keep getting ironed out by certain individuals for your benefit.
Dodging isn't as useful in melee as it is against ranged, and isn't worth crap anyway with the weight nerf.
Melee is hard to play if you're a scrub.
People do quit the game because of nerfs, as intended.
Ranged isn't particularly anti-melee, since melee remains the primary skill in the game and used by all.

Those things apply to melee. Learn the game.

Yeah, you mad
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Idzo on February 17, 2014, 10:29:35 am
Remove archers
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Jeraz on February 17, 2014, 11:42:01 am
I'm scared that this change will make archers kite more and only infuriate melee players more by running.

They changed the damage done to high armor targets so archers are already less deadly, it was a fine change and i like it but the thing that keeps me alive most of the time is that i can shoot a person and he gets stuned a bit, using a longbow i could start drawing again and could mostly fire 3 shots before being forced to draw my sword.
Before the patches i could kill most players before reaching me with that and now thats gone down to about half to 2/3 (if i hit them all(which is fine for me)).
But now i can only fire 1/2 arrows (3 if i'm lucky) because i don't have that extra time to start drawing my bow after the shot, so people come a lot closer a lot faster.
Because of that i tend to run away much earlyer to prevent being forced in a duel against a guy i only hit 1's (meaning almost certain dead). So archers are now more forced into 2 roles, A: Getting heavyer armor/ps and melee people. or B: get more Agi/Ath and run.
Seeing that duelling a person is still pretty hard as an archer, even with 6ps (which i have). I Think that more people are going to go for AGI based builds and thus more of a running then fighting style, making the complaints of archers kiteing come back.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Molly on February 17, 2014, 11:53:38 am
I'm scared that this change will make archers kite more and only infuriate melee players more by running.

They changed the damage done to high armor targets so archers are already less deadly, it was a fine change and i like it but the thing that keeps me alive most of the time is that i can shoot a person and he gets stuned a bit, using a longbow i could start drawing again and could mostly fire 3 shots before being forced to draw my sword.
Before the patches i could kill most players before reaching me with that and now thats gone down to about half to 2/3 (if i hit them all(which is fine for me)).
But now i can only fire 1/2 arrows (3 if i'm lucky) because i don't have that extra time to start drawing my bow after the shot, so people come a lot closer a lot faster.
Because of that i tend to run away much earlyer to prevent being forced in a duel against a guy i only hit 1's (meaning almost certain dead). So archers are now more forced into 2 roles, A: Getting heavyer armor/ps and melee people. or B: get more Agi/Ath and run.
Seeing that duelling a person is still pretty hard as an archer, even with 6ps (which i have). I Think that more people are going to go for AGI based builds and thus more of a running then fighting style, making the complaints of archers kiteing come back.
If I am not mistaken, more agi means to go down the bow tiers which again leads to even less stunning chance on high armoured enemies which then leads to even more running?
That doesn't seem to make sense from an archer's point of view.
Going more PD, more damage, more stunning, accepting the lower accuracy seems more viable to me. But then again, I am no archer.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Andswaru on February 17, 2014, 12:00:43 pm
I'm scared that this change will make archers kite more and only infuriate melee players more by running.

They changed the damage done to high armor targets so archers are already less deadly, it was a fine change and i like it but the thing that keeps me alive most of the time is that i can shoot a person and he gets stuned a bit, using a longbow i could start drawing again and could mostly fire 3 shots before being forced to draw my sword.
Before the patches i could kill most players before reaching me with that and now thats gone down to about half to 2/3 (if i hit them all(which is fine for me)).
But now i can only fire 1/2 arrows (3 if i'm lucky) because i don't have that extra time to start drawing my bow after the shot, so people come a lot closer a lot faster.
Because of that i tend to run away much earlyer to prevent being forced in a duel against a guy i only hit 1's (meaning almost certain dead). So archers are now more forced into 2 roles, A: Getting heavyer armor/ps and melee people. or B: get more Agi/Ath and run.
Seeing that duelling a person is still pretty hard as an archer, even with 6ps (which i have). I Think that more people are going to go for AGI based builds and thus more of a running then fighting style, making the complaints of archers kiteing come back.

Now you have the same parallel diliama the rest of us have, take route a) with a shield or take route b) without a shield. Instead of having only route c) which provided the best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Angantyr on February 17, 2014, 12:05:33 pm
They changed the damage done to high armor targets so archers are already less deadly
Wasn't this reverted so as to just make ranged have no extra armor penetration bonus compared to melee anymore = equalizing the two damage-wise?

Same with the new change with stagger, some people seem to take it as a nerf when in fact it is just equalizing poles, 2h, 1h and ranged.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Rhekimos on February 17, 2014, 12:09:13 pm
Updated OP to not mislead people with old information.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Jeraz on February 17, 2014, 12:20:15 pm
If I am not mistaken, more agi means to go down the bow tiers which again leads to even less stunning chance on high armoured enemies which then leads to even more running?
That doesn't seem to make sense from an archer's point of view.
Going more PD, more damage, more stunning, accepting the lower accuracy seems more viable to me. But then again, I am no archer.

Well, Running is away is a certain tactic, it will always work (1vs1). getting more STR dous make you do more damage but it's still a gamble if it will actually stun + getting more STR/PD will make your WPF go down so it will be harder to hit.

I'm mostly refering to higher level archers, that chose between 18/24 and 18/27. Being 27 ATH is probally beter now cause of the WPF increase and ATH.

But i haven't played with the newest changes yet so ill have to see for my self how "bad" it really is.




Now you have the same parallel diliama the rest of us have, take route a) with a shield or take route b) without a shield. Instead of having only route c) which provided the best of both worlds.

well, it's not the thing that you have to chose, its that i think most people will go for the ATH aproche. Thus bringing back kitting.
But like i said, they tweaked it a bit and i have yet to test that out. So will see.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: bavvoz on February 17, 2014, 12:53:38 pm
Stunning ppl or kiting them is in a way the same thing imo. Both are used to help the archer keeping them at distance as long as possible.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Jeraz on February 17, 2014, 12:57:02 pm
Stunning ppl or kiting them is in a way the same thing imo. Both are used to help the archer keeping them at distance as long as possible.

True,but what i mean is that kitting is based on moving yourself and prevent the enemy from moving (towards you) so when they lesser the one (Stunning) you will be "forced" to upper the other (running).
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Jeraz on February 17, 2014, 12:58:27 pm
Wasn't this reverted so as to just make ranged have no extra armor penetration bonus compared to melee anymore = equalizing the two damage-wise?

Same with the new change with stagger, some people seem to take it as a nerf when in fact it is just equalizing poles, 2h, 1h and ranged.

They did revert it?
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: darmaster on February 17, 2014, 01:11:36 pm
BUTTHURT
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Corsair831 on February 17, 2014, 01:17:46 pm
i'm sorry but this is just the stupidest change i've ever seen, you've basically buffed thoughtless, "high armour charge directly at a group of archers spamming and rely on your hp too soak the damage rather than actually thinking" play with this change

honestly, this is so dumb.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Kafein on February 17, 2014, 01:43:02 pm
True,but what i mean is that kitting is based on moving yourself and prevent the enemy from moving (towards you) so when they lesser the one (Stunning) you will be "forced" to upper the other (running).

It is wrong either way. When someone manages to come that close to you, you already failed as an archer, as should happen if confronted to a better player. Use your sidearm and fight for your life.

i'm sorry but this is just the stupidest change i've ever seen, you've basically buffed thoughtless, "high armour charge directly at a group of archers spamming and rely on your hp too soak the damage rather than actually thinking" play with this change

honestly, this is so dumb.

This is true. Thinking is so effective, I can kill archers with my mind alone.

Seriously, stop spouting random bullcrap.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Andswaru on February 17, 2014, 01:54:08 pm
Its actually easier now forarchers to work together, with arrow stun gone a group of say 3 archers should be able to mow down 2 handed heros charging them without any problem.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: StuLLe on February 17, 2014, 02:12:35 pm
Next to the increased weight of arrows this seems to me like one of the heaviest nerfs to archery so far. And I dont really understand why it was implemented. Was archery still considered overpowered? You might feel the urge to troll me, but I am seriously asking this, because I dont see alot of archers beeing high on the battle scoreboard since I started playing again, with some exceptions like blackbow, stevee, tenne, woodland and a few others (and that probably only happens because they are all pretty decent melee fighters as well). And the scoreboard seems to me the only measurement I got for their effectiveness.

May be its also just getting nerfed again and again because some players in this community who run around naked! without a shield 90% of the time complain about being shot ded.
Or that cav players topping the scoreboard and getting valor fairly often, in all doing pretty well from what I can see post pictures of their dead horse spiked with a shitload of javs and arrows and the subtext "Nerf ranged", whereas in my mind the question arises: Why can your horse even survive that many hits from ranged? :shock:
I dont believe me to have a really objective view on the topic, because archery is basically the only class I play. Maybe it needed another nerf due to balancing, I just would like to understand the devs motivation for these changes.

Yesterday I played some hours with the new patch and with and mw horn or rus bow and mw bodkins I think I didnt stun anyone once. I dont know how it is with a longbow, maybe someone using one could confirm that stun still exists and was not removed completely?

Anyways, bottom line for me is that archery is less and less fun to play each time I come back to the game so I would be really happy to see you guys giving out some respecs for the people affected.

Cheers

Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: oreshy on February 17, 2014, 02:23:30 pm
Next to the increased weight of arrows this seems to me like one of the heaviest nerfs to archery so far. And I dont really understand why it was implemented. Was archery still considered overpowered? You might feel the urge to troll me, but I am seriously asking this, because I dont see alot of archers beeing high on the battle scoreboard since I started playing again, with some exceptions like blackbow, stevee, tenne, woodland and a few others (and that probably only happens because they are all pretty decent melee fighters as well). And the scoreboard seems to me the only measurement I got for their effectiveness.

May be its also just getting nerfed again and again because some players in this community who run around naked! without a shield 90% of the time complain about being shot ded.
Or that cav players topping the scoreboard and getting valor fairly often, in all doing pretty well from what I can see post pictures of their dead horse spiked with a shitload of javs and arrows and the subtext "Nerf ranged", whereas in my mind the question arises: Why can your horse even survive that many hits from ranged? :shock:
I dont believe me to have a really objective view on the topic, because archery is basically the only class I play. Maybe it needed another nerf due to balancing, I just would like to understand the devs motivation for these changes.

Yesterday I played some hours with the new patch and with and mw horn or rus bow and mw bodkins I think I didnt stun anyone once. I dont know how it is with a longbow, maybe someone using one could confirm that stun still exists and was not removed completely?

Anyways, bottom line for me is that archery is less and less fun to play each time I come back to the game so I would be really happy to see you guys giving out some respecs for the people affected.

Cheers

...really good words.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Grumbs on February 17, 2014, 02:30:50 pm
Why should you be entitled to a stagger when you click on guys from a safe distance, and melee that can be easily blocked doesn't? When you have great melee weapons with inbuilt 100% melee counter and in the case of xbows, pretty much the same builds as melee guys in melee

Don't worry though, your nerfs will be reverted or turned into buffs elsewhere so nothing really changes
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Rhekimos on February 17, 2014, 02:33:23 pm
Yesterday I played some hours with the new patch and with and mw horn or rus bow and mw bodkins I think I didnt stun anyone once. I dont know how it is with a longbow, maybe someone using one could confirm that stun still exists and was not removed completely?

It still exists. I have been staggered a couple of times by a longbow hit, as of the newest patch.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: karasu on February 17, 2014, 02:42:00 pm
Hit the legs, certain stagger. Or so it seems.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: StuLLe on February 17, 2014, 02:47:39 pm
Don't worry though, your nerfs will be reverted or turned into buffs elsewhere so nothing really changes

hahaha, grumbs, that made my day. You almost had me there, Troll! :D

Hit the legs, certain stagger. Or so it seems.

I was actually talking about the stun we had before, not staggering. The stun makes people canceling all actions including movement, staggering only cancels attacks? Or do i get something wrong here?
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Rhekimos on February 17, 2014, 03:08:32 pm
I was actually talking about the stun we had before, not staggering. The stun makes people canceling all actions including movement, staggering only cancels attacks? Or do i get something wrong here?

Stun = cancel attack, but can move freely.
Stagger = cancel attack, can't move.

These are apparently the correct terms.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: jtobiasm on February 17, 2014, 03:13:30 pm
Stun = cancel attack, but can move freely.
Stagger = cancel attack, can't move.

These are apparently the correct terms.

I'd of thought it's the other way around, when you're stunned you're unable to react.  Stagger is unsteady movement.

Unless this is sarcasm and i missed it ;^) Silly me.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Rhekimos on February 17, 2014, 03:22:14 pm
I'd of thought it's the other way around, when you're stunned you're unable to react.  Stagger is unsteady movement.

Unless this is sarcasm and i missed it ;^) Silly me.

Heh, no sarcasm here. Pole stagger used to do the same thing actually, you were locked in place and couldn't attack for a bit.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: jtobiasm on February 17, 2014, 03:24:40 pm
Heh, no sarcasm here. Pole stagger used to do the same thing actually, you were locked in place and couldn't attack for a bit.

That should be called pole stun then ;D.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: cmp on February 17, 2014, 03:25:05 pm
Stun = cancel attack, but can move freely.
Stagger = cancel attack, can't move.

This is correct.
They also have different animations, and stun is shorter.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Butan on February 17, 2014, 03:28:20 pm
(begin at 0:20)

Uruk-Hai suicide bomber = me
Legolas = archers
Helm's Deep wall = archer's sense of safety


Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: jtobiasm on February 17, 2014, 03:32:23 pm
Stun = cancel attack, but can move freely.
Stagger = cancel attack, can't move.

These are apparently the correct terms.


This is correct.
They also have different animations, and stun is shorter.

This is incorrect in the English dictionary, it makes no sense.  Please change what you call a STUN and a STAGGER.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: oreshy on February 17, 2014, 03:35:16 pm

This is incorrect in the English dictionary, it makes no sense.

...yes , this doesn't fits to a certain theme.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Molly on February 17, 2014, 03:36:01 pm

This is incorrect in the English dictionary, it makes no sense.
Which nobody really cares about :)
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: jtobiasm on February 17, 2014, 03:36:42 pm
Which nobody really cares about :)

No cos saying you stunned someone and staggering them is completely different
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: tizzango on February 17, 2014, 03:38:42 pm
Fare thee well cRPG, i'll see you in Bonerlord or donkeygame!
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Andswaru on February 17, 2014, 03:39:29 pm
It is.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stun?show=0&t=1392647905


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stagger
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Corwin on February 17, 2014, 03:42:14 pm
Does this mean ALL ranged stagger is removed? Because if you take a javelin, or a crossbow bolt to your chest from three meters, you ARE gonna stagger, no matter what armour you are wearing.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: jtobiasm on February 17, 2014, 03:42:52 pm
It is.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stun?show=0&t=1392647905

  • to cause (someone) to suddenly become very confused, very dizzy, or unconscious

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stagger
  • to move or cause (someone) to move unsteadily from side to side
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 
Unable to react means, you can't do anything.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Andswaru on February 17, 2014, 03:48:54 pm
What kind of dictionary site is that? Probs not one your proud of with a Puu.sh picture.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/stun
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Rico on February 17, 2014, 03:50:24 pm
If I am not mistaken, more agi means to go down the bow tiers which again leads to even less stunning chance on high armoured enemies which then leads to even more running?
That doesn't seem to make sense from an archer's point of view.
Going more PD, more damage, more stunning, accepting the lower accuracy seems more viable to me. But then again, I am no archer.

Hey Molly!

I played shielder for 1 gen, thrower for one gen, and my other 19 gens were either xbow or archer. When you play archer and you are not completely mad, you do not want to accept any lower accuracy. Compared to the other ranged classes, bows are inaccurate as fuck already with an 18/21 build on level 30, or respectively, 18 STR and even higher AGI at levels above 30. There is barely any chance to aim carefully, since your crosshair shrinks and expands within split seconds like a coil spring someone stepped on. Depending on your bow, you reload for a certain amount of time, have a few miliseconds to do the shot, and when you are even a bit late, the arrow goes anywhere but where you want it to hit. And if you are experienced enough to know the perfect timing for your shots, you will realize that the crosshair is still at its smallest size very very VERY far from pin-point accuracy which allows you to hit a target across a large distance.

In my opinion, the amount of deadly headshots per round is the only thing that distinguishes a skilled archer from a noob. If you limit down the accuracy with a high-str build, you accept randomness rather than skill as a measurement for your performance. And if you ask me, that sucks. Might as well say I am talented at playing the lottery...

Have fun and good games!
Rico
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Kamirane on February 17, 2014, 04:03:03 pm
the nerf wouldnt be that bad, if u would finally fix these god damn "ghostarrows". Still at least 10% of all headshots passes through...
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Molly on February 17, 2014, 04:05:20 pm
Hey Molly!

I played shielder for 1 gen, thrower for one gen, and my other 19 gens were either xbow or archer. When you play archer and you are not completely mad, you do not want to accept any lower accuracy. Compared to the other ranged classes, bows are inaccurate as fuck already with an 18/21 build on level 30, or respectively, 18 STR and even higher AGI at levels above 30. There is barely any chance to aim carefully, since your crosshair shrinks and expands within split seconds like a coil spring someone stepped on. Depending on your bow, you reload for a certain amount of time, have a few miliseconds to do the shot, and when you are even a bit late, the arrow goes anywhere but where you want it to hit. And if you are experienced enough to know the perfect timing for your shots, you will realize that the crosshair is still at its smallest size very very VERY far from pin-point accuracy which allows you to hit a target across a large distance.

In my opinion, the amount of deadly headshots per round is the only thing that distinguishes a skilled archer from a noob. If you limit down the accuracy with a high-str build, you accept randomness rather than skill as a measurement for your performance. And if you ask me, that sucks. Might as well say I am talented at playing the lottery...

Have fun and good games!
Rico
This is just bullshit. I have an HA alt and it's piss easy to aim and hit someone with a bow. Do I hit a lot of heads? No but that happens way too often anyway.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Rico on February 17, 2014, 04:08:32 pm
This is just bullshit. I have an HA alt and it's piss easy to aim and hit someone with a bow. Do I hit a lot of heads? No but that happens way too often anyway.
Play your alt for 10 gens and you will understand why some people are crying.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: cmp on February 17, 2014, 04:15:00 pm
This is incorrect in the English dictionary, it makes no sense.  Please change what you call a STUN and a STAGGER.

http://www.calradia.org/dictionary/stun
http://www.calradia.org/dictionary/stagger
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 04:17:37 pm
Glad to see my suggestions (which are always so well thought out and logical  :shock: ) was taken to heart, considered and acted upon.

I lived up to my forum custom user title.

I think that deserves bumping me up to the next level from "Minutely" to something like "neglible" or "minimal"
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Rico on February 17, 2014, 04:32:34 pm
This is just bullshit. I have an HA alt and it's piss easy to aim and hit someone with a bow. Do I hit a lot of heads? No but that happens way too often anyway.
Also, HA is designed for shooting at close range, kiting and doing the same again. Infantry archers cannot do that and have to shoot at higher distances. Try to apply your piss easy shooting then.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: jtobiasm on February 17, 2014, 04:46:44 pm
http://www.calradia.org/dictionary/stun
  • to cause (someone) to be unable to attack
http://www.calradia.org/dictionary/stagger
  • to cause (someone) to be unable to attack and move

Like i said and i've discussed this with Tydues, it's the opposite to the english dictonary to what is in the warband mechanics. Which evidently you failed to read.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: karasu on February 17, 2014, 04:56:53 pm
who cares if it's called Joe Stun or Kurwa Stagger, as long as people understand there are 2 unique mechanics.

/me sighs.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Jack1 on February 17, 2014, 05:03:05 pm
Also, HA is designed for shooting at close range, kiting and doing the same again. Infantry archers cannot do that and have to shoot at higher distances. Try to apply your piss easy shooting then.

Funny thing, lately I did an archer gen to level 32 with a longbow(least accurate bow) and I would hit anybody on the map easily as long as they were either not moving or going in a constant pattern. Every map I also had atleast 10 kills and was only not in the top 4 scores in the cases of the enemy team getting rolled too fast.

Archery was extremely OP in my opinion. After this latest patch I would imagine it is less of an anybody's class and more of a skill based class.  Infantry and cavelry are the same way.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: oreshy on February 17, 2014, 05:07:55 pm
who cares if it's called Joe Stun or Kurwa Stagger, as long as people understand there are 2 unique mechanics.

/me sighs.

...this fits to a certain theme.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Tydeus on February 17, 2014, 05:12:45 pm
After this latest patch I would imagine it is less of an anybody's class and more of a skill based class.  Infantry and cavelry are the same way.
Particularly after this patch. For a long time there have been changes that have favored mobbing and essentially reduced the effects of player skill on the server. Freeing up movement, horses getting reared easily(only applies to bad cav), and requiring ranged to actually land their shots when they're being charged(this ones more indirect, yet nevertheless the change has the same effect), have all served to not only reward, but make player skill a bit more demanding for success. I'm not sure I agree with everything in its current form, but for the most part, conceptually, the recent changes are for the better.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: cmp on February 17, 2014, 05:26:34 pm
Like i said and i've discussed this with Tydues, it's the opposite to the english dictonary to what is in the warband mechanics. Which evidently you failed to read.

I don't think you got the joke.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: jtobiasm on February 17, 2014, 05:38:02 pm
I don't think you got the joke.

I did, just it was that funny I forgot to laugh. ;DDD
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: gallonigher on February 17, 2014, 05:54:31 pm
Particularly after this patch. For a long time there have been changes that have favored mobbing and essentially reduced the effects of player skill on the server. Freeing up movement, horses getting reared easily(only applies to bad cav), and requiring ranged to actually land their shots when they're being charged(this ones more indirect, yet nevertheless the change has the same effect), have all served to not only reward, but make player skill a bit more demanding for success. I'm not sure I agree with everything in its current form, but for the most part, conceptually, the recent changes are for the better.

Do your thing, man
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: PsychoTwins on February 17, 2014, 06:45:14 pm
Funny thing, lately I did an archer gen to level 32 with a longbow(least accurate bow) and I would hit anybody on the map easily as long as they were either not moving or going in a constant pattern. Every map I also had atleast 10 kills and was only not in the top 4 scores in the cases of the enemy team getting rolled too fast.

Archery was extremely OP in my opinion. After this latest patch I would imagine it is less of an anybody's class and more of a skill based class.  Infantry and cavelry are the same way.

Imma have to agree with Jack here. I had also recently tried archery on a STF, so only lvl 30, and I have to say it was more than easy to get valor with it.
I even epeen'd some screenshots of doing well even against astralis stack(they have really good archers for EU who dont know them)
I used a longbow with tartar(yes even without the OP bodkin archers do dmg)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Long story short, if you want to do dmg as an archer get a dmg'ing bow.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Macropus on February 17, 2014, 06:53:18 pm
I even epeen'd some screenshots of doing well even against astralis stack(they have really good archers for EU who dont know them)
I used a longbow with tartar(yes even without the OP bodkin archers do dmg)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Long story short, if you want to do dmg as an archer get a dmg'ing bow.
Nice!
By the way, which mods did you use to reach such a k/d? Share with us please.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: PsychoTwins on February 17, 2014, 07:04:20 pm
Nice!
By the way, which mods did you use to reach such a k/d? Share with us please.

I was not on my haxor character so I didnt have any on  :(
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: oreshy on February 17, 2014, 07:15:15 pm
...nice k/d ratio against 12-20 player's (nothing against astralis' ..you're doing well).
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: Ronin on February 17, 2014, 07:19:21 pm
Imma have to agree with Jack here. I had also recently tried archery on a STF, so only lvl 30, and I have to say it was more than easy to get valor with it.
I even epeen'd some screenshots of doing well even against astralis stack(they have really good archers for EU who dont know them)
I used a longbow with tartar(yes even without the OP bodkin archers do dmg)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Long story short, if you want to do dmg as an archer get a dmg'ing bow.
You should play an archer character. Seriously. I saw the potential.
Title: Re: Ranged stun removed
Post by: PsychoTwins on February 17, 2014, 07:57:13 pm
You should play an archer character. Seriously. I saw the potential.

I dont know, maybe once I get bored of trying out everything else. Will definitely play archer before I play HX tho.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Spleen on February 17, 2014, 08:30:23 pm
This is bullshit, I actually have to calculate the running paths and escape routes now...unless ofc I interrupt the attack and I only have around 80 tries for that...
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: karasu on February 18, 2014, 12:15:51 am
Did some heavy testing on my archer and I don't see all the QQ and ruckus about it. Still easy peasy to top scoreboard and have a great K/D.

If one thing this patch did, was to force even more teamplay, cause now either you're a god and stunshoot a rusher in the legs, or there's no more hero mode single archer, so you stick to your team and do what you're supposed to do: support.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: PsychoTwins on February 18, 2014, 12:19:09 am
Did some heavy testing on my archer and I don't see all the QQ and ruckus about it. Still easy peasy to top scoreboard and have a great K/D.

If one thing this patch did, was to force even more teamplay, cause now either you're a god and stunshoot a rusher in the legs, or there's no more hero mode single archer, so you stick to your team and do what you're supposed to do: support.

But...but...archery is unplayable now  :cry:

(click to show/hide)
huehue  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Inglorious on February 18, 2014, 12:28:21 am
http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/love-for-new-devs/msg956539/#msg956539

It is still normal to see archers top the boards. What's all the fuss about. And yes the Astralis when they range troll roll with all their members is slightly mod population killing in NA. You bastards  :mad:
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Dach on February 18, 2014, 01:31:45 am
Bob can you at least confirm all the kill you showed on these killboard have been done with a bow?  :wink:

Because I know you're capable a murdering a lot of people with only a stick.

Or it's like when Cyranule was playing on his Best Archer NA alt... was topping the scoreboard but 2/3 of his kill were done in melee.....  :lol:
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Tydeus on February 18, 2014, 01:57:14 am
Or it's like when Cyranule was playing on his Best Archer NA alt... was topping the scoreboard but 2/3 of his kill were done in melee.....  :lol:
He's still the best NA archer, regardless.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: PsychoTwins on February 18, 2014, 01:59:52 am
Bob can you at least confirm all the kill you showed on these killboard have been done with a bow?  :wink:

Because I know you're capable a murdering a lot of people with only a stick.

Or it's like when Cyranule was playing on his Best Archer NA alt... was topping the scoreboard but 2/3 of his kill were done in melee.....  :lol:

Lol yes 90% of kills were from my bow, I only had 4 wpf in 1h and MW wakazashi(which is surprisingly good) but yeah I avoided melee as much as possible.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Smoothrich on February 18, 2014, 02:14:26 am
So will this make Longbow/Rus bow the only bows that do enough damage to inflict stagger?  And will they be able to consistently do it?

Or is it up to RNG speed bonus gods and Horn bows will still be randomly staggering folk?

Would be nice to see a buff to Rus and Long bow at fighting other archers and infantry, but making them weigh more/inflict a length-based sprint nerf, making them more damaging/accurate but less mobile. Nice internal balance (kind of how it used to be with Long bows only doing pierce)
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Adamar on February 19, 2014, 08:18:17 pm
Did some heavy testing on my archer and I don't see all the QQ and ruckus about it. Still easy peasy to top scoreboard and have a great K/D.

If one thing this patch did, was to force even more teamplay, cause now either you're a god and stunshoot a rusher in the legs, or there's no more hero mode single archer, so you stick to your team and do what you're supposed to do: support.

Hero mode single archer, are you being sarcastic? Melee players don't want to teamplay with other classes, they want to zerg, and the way this game is ballanced encourages that further.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Tydeus on February 20, 2014, 01:10:36 am
Hero mode single archer, are you being sarcastic? Melee players don't want to teamplay with other classes, they want to zerg, and the way this game is ballanced encourages that further.
Whether or not they want to, makes no difference. If melee does teamplay with other classes, they're much better off. As is the case with anything else. While stuns and staggers can be used by coordinated archers to keep a target stunned forever, it can also be done by the skill-less. Meanwhile, the removal of leg stun and reduced chance to stagger, increases the skill requirement for archers as it makes landing every shot that much more important.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Panos_ on February 20, 2014, 01:42:31 am
Tydeus, you keep nerfing 4d polearms, while on the other hand you buff 2h class.

You removed the stagger lock of all 4d polearms, while on the other hand every 2h got a +1 speed, like they werent fast already.

I knew since day 1 that the mod favours  bundle of sticksry 2h class, but for fucks sake, don`t make it THAT obvious. 
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Rebelyell on February 20, 2014, 02:38:29 am
Tydeus, you keep nerfing 4d polearms, while on the other hand you buff 2h class.

You removed the stagger lock of all 4d polearms, while on the other hand every 2h got a +1 speed, like they werent fast already.

I knew since day 1 that the mod favours  bundle of sticksry 2h class, but for fucks sake, don`t make it THAT obvious.

panos bec can now rear horses and have knockdown and high pierce dmg
stafs are just fuking awesome
hoplite is best class for big battle
pikes
alwpikes
that berdiche that you use is probably best axe in the game
there are almost no Unbalanced weapons in class
poleaxes are omniweapons with good in everything


just stopb biching
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Panos_ on February 20, 2014, 10:27:37 am
panos bec can now rear horses and have knockdown and high pierce dmg  Even 2handers can rear horses now, and there are bigger 2handers with knockdown
stafs are just fuking awesome  yeah, cool story bro
hoplite is best class for big battle  I`m talking about 4d polearms, not 2d ones
pikes I`m talking about 4d polearms, not 2d ones
alwpikes I`m talking about 4d polearms, not 2d ones
that berdiche that you use is probably best axe in the game Sure its strong, but it`s slow as fuck
there are almost no Unbalanced weapons in class What?? You know shit bobby..
poleaxes are omniweapons with good in everything  So is longsword
 

just stopb biching


"just stopb biching". coming from a guy who used to be a longsword user, and kept lobbying so it could get a major buff.

Now you`re a polearmer, lets see how long until your respec into 2h class again bobby.


Thank god c-rpg is all about total balance between classes  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Macropus on February 20, 2014, 10:32:55 am
Tydeus, you keep nerfing 4d polearms, while on the other hand you buff 2h class.

You removed the stagger lock of all 4d polearms, while on the other hand every 2h got a +1 speed, like they werent fast already.

I knew since day 1 that the mod favours  bundle of sticksry 2h class, but for fucks sake, don`t make it THAT obvious.
Panos, slow polearms got +1 speed too, including your (mine too) long bardiche. Haven't you noticed?  :D
I think all slow weapons got a speed buff, except for onehanders.
PS: and no, not all twohanders got the speed buff. Fast ones sure didn't.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Panos_ on February 20, 2014, 10:41:11 am
Panos, slow polearms got +1 speed too, including your (mine too) long bardiche. Haven't you noticed?  :D
I think all slow weapons got a speed buff, except for onehanders.
PS: and no, not all twohanders got the speed buff. Fast ones sure didn't.


Nope, I didnt notice, because speed was never a big issue for me. But still buffing two classes at the same time while one of them is already more OP that the other, wont equate things.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Ikarus on February 20, 2014, 10:45:58 am
it´s still shitty as a polearm cav, 1h got as much range as 2h (if they use their weapon right), which makes them as ghay as 2h imo

Quote
Update: Stagger can (apparently the correct term for what causes your movement to stop) still happen, but as of now it seems very rare. And tweaks can still happen.

As a xbower...I totally approve this. Bolts n arrows don´t stun you EVERYTIME they hit you
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Tydeus on February 20, 2014, 12:52:52 pm
All 95 and lower speed weapons got +1 speed aside from the War Spear. Some exceptions were made for faster weapons, like the Two Handed Sword, which is now 97 speed, from 96, but hardly anything else was changed. I'd like to further increase speed for the really slow weapons, but we'll see. As for what pole's should gain for the movement stun getting removed, I need to play more as melee, rather than archer, to see.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Prpavi on February 20, 2014, 01:12:30 pm
Panos how do you expect a weapon that is much larger, heavier, basically an axe on top of a stick to handle the same speed and finese as a lighter balanced well crafter sword?

Stop trying to equal 2h and Polearms, they are quite different classes with quite different features.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Butan on February 20, 2014, 01:53:22 pm
After a few days of getting my shit shot a few times, I can say the "much more rare ranged stagger" isnt going to change the lives of ranged.
Except if you wear slab of steels like me, it will only give you the opportunity to get 1-3 good projectiles up your ass and still counter-attack the closest ranged available for instant justice.

But the more protection you have, the slower you are, thus even if I continue running up some archers with my plate, they dont lose much kiting power.



Basically, I'm waiting for bagge to come back because it was obviously a heat of the moment unjustified rage. I understand they hate the patch since it has the "appearance" of making us look like the new terminator, but its not like each time we get shot by we make 5m forward jump, we just keep moving.
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Panos_ on February 20, 2014, 02:27:34 pm
Panos how do you expect a weapon that is much larger, heavier, basically an axe on top of a stick to handle the same speed and finese as a lighter balanced well crafter sword?

Stop trying to equal 2h and Polearms, they are quite different classes with quite different features.

I`m not trying to equate their stats, but their pros and cons.

Constant nerfing in 4d polearms, while on the other hand retardedly OP 2h swords like longsword, are left untouched.

Bring back the stagger lock for polearm class, and Ill stop lobbying.

Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Rebelyell on February 20, 2014, 02:31:13 pm

"just stopb biching". coming from a guy who used to be a longsword user, and kept lobbying so it could get a major buff.

Now you`re a polearmer, lets see how long until your respec into 2h class again bobby.


Thank god c-rpg is all about total balance between classes  :rolleyes:
1h is on my list now, 2h is not that funny since polearms animations are not only about right swing spam(boring).


Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Kafein on February 20, 2014, 05:33:21 pm
Panos, how would you compare a regular Poleaxe with a regular Longsword?
Title: Re: Ranged stagger removed (Update: made much more rare)
Post by: Prpavi on February 20, 2014, 06:27:13 pm
I`m not trying to equate their stats, but their pros and cons.

Constant nerfing in 4d polearms, while on the other hand retardedly OP 2h swords like longsword, are left untouched.

Bring back the stagger lock for polearm class, and Ill stop lobbying.


Not every polearm is Great Bardiche you know...