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Off Topic => Historical Discussion => Topic started by: Dede on January 11, 2014, 05:14:52 pm

Title: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Dede on January 11, 2014, 05:14:52 pm
historically inaccurate, yet with a deep message...

Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 11, 2014, 08:58:54 pm
Deep message = muslims are bloodthirsty barbarians
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: the real god emperor on January 11, 2014, 09:14:49 pm
I assume "The Land" is Jerusalem or what?
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Osiris on January 11, 2014, 11:48:18 pm
by "deep message" you mean people have warred in the past? :D
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: BASNAK on January 12, 2014, 12:14:47 am
This video is anti-semitic because Jews are killed in it. You have been reported to Mossad and will also pay war reperations for WW2 for posting this. Shalom Goy.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Oberyn on January 12, 2014, 07:09:34 pm
Deep message = muslims are bloodthirsty barbarians

Or just that people regardless of "race" or creed are tribal and irredentist by nature.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Dede on January 12, 2014, 09:10:28 pm
Well, I think this video is self explanatory,is'n it.
So many Empires/Nations claimed that piece of land for themselves. They fought, killed and driven out each other.
The bloodshed still goes on in our present day, without a peaceful coexistence in sight.
A place called "Holy Land", and yet hatred, suffering, rivers of blood come to my mind when I hear it.

@Kratos
Yes, we can also add the entire middle east..a region with many never ending conflicts.

@BASNAK
You wrote also too much NSA sensitive data so far,..expect the worst now...write your asylum request if you didn't already.   :|
(click to show/hide)

@Oberyn
couldn't have said it better.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 13, 2014, 07:39:45 am
Or just that people regardless of "race" or creed are tribal and irredentist by nature.
I don't not know anyone who is tribal or irredentist by nature.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on January 13, 2014, 07:59:32 am
I don't not know anyone who is tribal or irredentist by nature.
Caught myself
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 13, 2014, 09:02:19 am
Give it all away then, will you?
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Tomas_Miles_again on January 13, 2014, 09:20:49 am
Good Samaritan
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Miwiw on January 13, 2014, 11:54:47 pm
A place called "Holy Land", and yet hatred, suffering, rivers of blood come to my mind when I hear it.

Isn't it just a desert, at least according to many movies. Never been there and won't ever visit that area. :)
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 13, 2014, 11:56:55 pm
historically inaccurate, yet with a deep message...


That jewish mallet is godwin :D
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: pepejul on January 14, 2014, 12:07:21 am
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begining of sedentarisation of human race.... first property = first war

http://www.markbwilson.com/album/1-Mediterranean%20World/slides/2a-Neolithic%20Agricultural%20Revolution%20Sites.html
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 14, 2014, 08:38:32 am
first property = first war
False, apes don't have "property" yet they too go to war.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 14, 2014, 11:49:23 am
False, apes don't have "property" yet they too go to war.

They frequently fight over territory, which could be taken as property, so yeah.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 14, 2014, 12:20:19 pm
And you think hunter-gatherer humans didn't have territory? You think nomadic humans would let other groups of humans drive them off from their current land? No? Then how is that relevant? Let me tell you how: it isn't.

Word of the day, Nightmare, is context.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: pepejul on January 14, 2014, 09:41:50 pm
Chimps do have property : territories, females, food storage and clear water place...etc.

And, genetically we ARE apes... so.... we still make same wars as apes do  :mrgreen:

Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 14, 2014, 09:49:45 pm
Chimps do have property : territories, females, food storage and clear water place...etc.

And, genetically we ARE apes... so.... we still make same wars as apes do  :mrgreen:

Well, maybe not the same wars as they do, but for same reason they do.

(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Adamar on January 14, 2014, 11:12:50 pm
That vid's context could be applied to most lands.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 15, 2014, 09:27:02 am
Chimps do have property : territories, females, food storage and clear water place...etc.

And, genetically we ARE apes... so.... we still make same wars as apes do  :mrgreen:
Then why are you talking about "sedentarisation" being the cause of first wars and linking to agricultural revolution maps?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but chimps have no agriculture.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 15, 2014, 12:53:43 pm
Then why are you talking about "sedentarisation" being the cause of first wars and linking to agricultural revolution maps?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but chimps have no agriculture.

The point is that they fight because there is something worth fighting for, be it supplies or territory. Nobody will wage war when there is nothing to fight for.

And you think hunter-gatherer humans didn't have territory? You think nomadic humans would let other groups of humans drive them off from their current land?

They did and they waged wars at each other for that.

Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 15, 2014, 01:03:46 pm
............

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Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Tibe on January 15, 2014, 05:09:17 pm
And, genetically we ARE apes... so.... we still make same wars as apes do  :mrgreen:
God damn it Pepe. You made baby Jesus cry again.

And lol. I would literally pay money to see Xant and Nightmare in the same room together.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 15, 2014, 07:26:25 pm
And lol. I would literally pay money to see Xant and Nightmare in the same room together.
Why? It's not like he evokes any particularly strong feelings in me; I'm mostly just exasperated at how thick someone can be, and even the very thought of having to explain the extremely rudimentary chain of logic that has led to the current discussion and why, owing to this, his posts are utterly absurd, makes me sigh very slowly.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: BASNAK on January 15, 2014, 07:34:30 pm
Why? It's not like he evokes any particularly strong feelings in me; I'm mostly just exasperated at how thick someone can be, and even the very thought of having to explain the extremely rudimentary chain of logic that has led to the current discussion and why, owing to this, his posts are utterly absurd, makes me sigh very slowly.

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Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 15, 2014, 08:57:08 pm
Just 38?
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 15, 2014, 11:42:02 pm
Why? It's not like he evokes any particularly strong feelings in me; I'm mostly just exasperated at how thick someone can be, and even the very thought of having to explain the extremely rudimentary chain of logic that has led to the current discussion and why, owing to this, his posts are utterly absurd, makes me sigh very slowly.

Am I the only one to whom this guy doesnt make any sense?
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 16, 2014, 10:56:21 am
Most likely. A lot of things must not make sense to you.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 16, 2014, 11:13:21 am
Most likely. A lot of things must not make sense to you.

Just a lot of things you say.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 16, 2014, 11:51:10 am
I understand, I'll try to use small words when talking to you.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Molly on January 16, 2014, 11:59:51 am
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(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Kafein on January 16, 2014, 12:22:08 pm
Didn't read the thread, just wanted to say that this video is surprisingly historically accurate
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 16, 2014, 01:39:47 pm
I understand, I'll try to use small words when talking to you.

It will be enough if you leave your autism out of your posts.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 16, 2014, 01:51:27 pm
Good comeback, if it weren't for the fact that you're so autistic you don't even understand basic logical links.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 16, 2014, 01:53:47 pm
Good comeback, if it weren't for the fact that you're so autistic you don't even understand basic logical links.

 I understand basic logical link. I just dont understand your logic, if there is any.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Kafein on January 16, 2014, 02:41:43 pm
Good comeback, if it weren't for the fact that you're so autistic you don't even understand basic logical links.

I don't agree, in many cases of autism, rational reasoning is actually made stronger and more consistent due to the relative weakness of emotional communications.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Molly on January 16, 2014, 02:47:21 pm
Good comeback, if it weren't for the fact that you're so autistic you don't even understand basic logical links.
I might be wrong but doesn't this line simply transform into a "no u"?

Rather disappointing.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 16, 2014, 02:55:52 pm
I might be wrong but doesn't this line simply transform into a "no u"?

Rather disappointing.
Really? Tell me, then, how do you reply to an autist calling someone else an autist that isn't a form of "no u"? I await with bated breath...
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Kafein on January 16, 2014, 02:57:05 pm
I might be wrong but doesn't this line simply transform into a "no u"?

Rather disappointing.

I don't think so because nightmare didn't question Xan't ability for logic, he just called him an autist
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Tibe on January 16, 2014, 05:13:27 pm
I don't think so because nightmare didn't question Xan't ability for logic, he just called him an autist
....and Xant made a link between autism and logic therefore nightmare began to question Xfhfksla.....god damn it, im bad at this......
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 16, 2014, 07:23:41 pm
I don't think so because nightmare didn't question Xan't ability for logic, he just called him an autist

I did not question his ability for logic, I questioned his logic, or rather lack of thereof.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 16, 2014, 07:56:42 pm
Really? So where is my logic lacking, exactly?

Also, you do not say" lack of thereof", you say "lack thereof"
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 16, 2014, 08:15:48 pm
Really? So where is my logic lacking, exactly?

Also, you do not say" lack of thereof", you say "lack thereof"

Oh yeah, I bet you are the kind of person who would hang people for typos. Yeah fuck me.

False, apes don't have "property" yet they too go to war.

At this point we started discussing that apes fight between each other because they have properties to fight for, hence the first property = first war comment made by pepe earlier.

And you think hunter-gatherer humans didn't have territory? You think nomadic humans would let other groups of humans drive them off from their current land? No? Then how is that relevant? Let me tell you how: it isn't.

Word of the day, Nightmare, is context.

Care to elaborate what was the point of this comment? Those people still fought for same reasons apes fight between each other (with some adjustments)

Then why are you talking about "sedentarisation" being the cause of first wars and linking to agricultural revolution maps?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but chimps have no agriculture.

There, this is where your logic broke.

The point was that it does not matter whenever it is a wheat field or a fruit tree they fight for, it is still the case of fighting for property.

Unless there was a deeper meaning under this that I did not notice, I thought we are talking about how similar are reasons for nations and apes for fighting between each other.

And then you go out and indirectly call me stupid for a reason unknown to me.


Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Tibe on January 16, 2014, 08:24:16 pm
Some things are just better to be buried then discussed.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 16, 2014, 08:44:26 pm
Oh yeah, I bet you are the kind of person who would hang people for typos. Yeah fuck me.

At this point we started discussing that apes fight between each other because they have properties to fight for, hence the first property = first war comment made by pepe earlier.

Care to elaborate what was the point of this comment? Those people still fought for same reasons apes fight between each other (with some adjustments)

There, this is where your logic broke.

The point was that it does not matter whenever it is a wheat field or a fruit tree they fight for, it is still the case of fighting for property.

Unless there was a deeper meaning under this that I did not notice, I thought we are talking about how similar are reasons for nations and apes for fighting between each other.

And then you go out and indirectly call me stupid for a reason unknown to me.

1) Pepe says that first wars started when the sedentarization of humankind began
1.1) He follows this up by saying "first property = first war"
1.2) Given the context, it is easily deducible that he, therefore, does not mean by property any kind of temporary property that hunter-gatherer nomadic humans might have had, such as territory they were currently on - otherwise why would he be talking about sedentarization and agriculture being the causes of first war because they introduced property?
1.3) He links to a map called "Neolithic agricultural revolution"
1.4) Given this, we conclude that Pepe is of the opinion that agriculture and sedentarization is what caused the first war, and agriculture and sedentarization is when humans first had property (see point 1.2)
1.5) First war means it is the first war, i.e. there were no wars before that. Since he attributes the aforementioned first war to property, which he attributes to sedentarization, we can therefore draw the conclusion that the property he speaks of is not something that hunter-gatherers had.
2) I say that his conclusion is false, seeing as apes too go to war, yet they have neither agriculture nor any real "sedentarization" to speak of
2.1) Given that they are our closest relatives and have the closest animal societies to what our hunter-gatherer tribes were like, social dynamics and all (including the same things to gain from war as our ancestors would have had), and yet they engage in warfare despite having no "property" (see point 1.2), we can safely assume that said property is far from the only reason to go to war, for us OR for other animals.
2.2) No other finding supports pepe's arguments either and indeed do support mine, but we'll forego this for now seeing as it's beside the point and, really, just redundant with this level of argument
3) You then comment that they frequently fight over territory, "which could be taken as property" - again, see point 1.2. Hunter-gatherer humans also had territory, yet by pepe's definition that was not "property", therefore your point is moot.
4) Your next post to me has nothing to do with anything given points 1.0-3


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Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: JackieChan on January 16, 2014, 10:33:57 pm
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Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 16, 2014, 11:01:30 pm
(click to show/hide)

Quote
1.4) Given this, we conclude that Pepe is of the opinion that agriculture and sedentarization is what caused the first war, and agriculture and sedentarization is when humans first had property (see point 1.2)

What if those two statements were two separate things and his comment on property had no relation to argiculture?

Quote
1.5) First war means it is the first war, i.e. there were no wars before that. Since he attributes the aforementioned first war to property, which he attributes to sedentarization, we can therefore draw the conclusion that the property he speaks of is not something that hunter-gatherers had.

This is where the argument began. You simply assumed that first property = first war means war over land. I wondered why your responses did not make sense to me. I thought of property as anything you can posses, whereas you thought of property directly as of land.

So in the end our argument is product of nothing else but an unclear assumption and misunderstanding, and thus I guess I should apologise for caling you an autist. However, I would be glad if you stopped being such an arrogant arsehole and adjusted your shitty attitude, and explained things like this instead making subtle comments suggesting that I am an idiot. Misunderstanding and stupidity are two different things.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 16, 2014, 11:24:26 pm
How in the name of fuck do you get those two statements to be separate things? Hell, there aren't even two possible statements in that post. That'd be a post equivalent of "I like fish. BALLOONS. GALAXY MAP? IPAD!" It even has four dots, meaning it continues. You are grasping at straws. Extremely desperate straws.

And no, I did not think of first property = first land, you dolt. This has nothing to do with what "you" thought property means, or what "I" thought property means. It has everything to do with what Pepe used it to describe. I was replying to him. You can't just invent your own meanings and proclaim how you're right. Read what pepe wrote- actually, nevermind. If you can't understand the argument even after I made a step-by-step guide for you, I can't help you.

And just as a refresher, this, ladies and gentlemen, is what he proposes is "two separate things":

Quote
begining of sedentarisation of human race.... first property = first war

http://www.markbwilson.com/album/1-Mediterranean%20World/slides/2a-Neolithic%20Agricultural%20Revolution%20Sites.html

Where does Nightmare suggest pepe cuts it off and makes it into another statement? Does he just change his mind after talking about sedentarisation of human race and instead start talking about something completely unrelated, and then changes his mind again and links to agriculture maps? Or - bear with me, crazy idea here, guys - it's not two fucking statements.

As for you asking me to adjust my attitude, you haven't earned a single shred of politeness with your past behavior.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 17, 2014, 12:50:09 am
How in the name of fuck do you get those two statements to be separate things? Hell, there aren't even two possible statements in that post. That'd be a post equivalent of "I like fish. BALLOONS. GALAXY MAP? IPAD!" It even has four dots, meaning it continues. You are grasping at straws. Extremely desperate straws.

And no, I did not think of first property = first land, you dolt. This has nothing to do with what "you" thought property means, or what "I" thought property means. It has everything to do with what Pepe used it to describe. I was replying to him. You can't just invent your own meanings and proclaim how you're right. Read what pepe wrote- actually, nevermind. If you can't understand the argument even after I made a step-by-step guide for you, I can't help you.

And just as a refresher, this, ladies and gentlemen, is what he proposes is "two separate things":

Where does Nightmare suggest pepe cuts it off and makes it into another statement? Does he just change his mind after talking about sedentarisation of human race and instead start talking about something completely unrelated, and then changes his mind again and links to agriculture maps? Or - bear with me, crazy idea here, guys - it's not two fucking statements.

As for you asking me to adjust my attitude, you haven't earned a single shred of politeness with your past behavior.

If he talked about something concrete with word property, he would have made himself clear earlier. You assume something and then take it for a fact, and any possibility that you got it wrong is simply too outlandish for you and your ego to be true.

I would like him to tell us what he meant by the word property to make this clear once, and for all.

However since I dont think he is going to do that, we are discussing something that is simply not worth it.

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begining of sedentarisation of human race.... first property = first war

http://www.markbwilson.com/album/1-Mediterranean%20World/slides/2a-Neolithic%20Agricultural%20Revolution%20Sites.html

1.4) Given this, we conclude that Pepe is of the opinion that agriculture and sedentarization is what caused the first war, and agriculture and sedentarization is when humans first had property (see point 1.2)

He did not state that argiculture and sedentarization is what caused first war. He said that, Having property is what started the first war, regardless of what kind of property it is, at least in my opinion.

And fyi I am not grasping any straws. It is you who wants me to feel this way so you can enlarge your e-peen and feel good about yourself.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Paul on January 17, 2014, 01:05:41 am
The only ones more stupid than pepe are those who argue about what he "meant", actually believing that he is capable of coherent thought.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 17, 2014, 01:12:52 am
If he talked about something concrete with word property, he would have made himself clear earlier. You assume something and then take it for a fact, and any possibility that you got it wrong is simply too outlandish for you and your ego to be true.
I don't assume anything at all. Anyone with >75 IQ can tell what he is talking about. It is EXTREMELY obvious.

Quote
He did not state that argiculture and sedentarization is what caused first war. He said that, Having property is what started the first war, regardless of what kind of property it is, at least in my opinion.
Seriously? OK, I give up trying to explain this to you. You are thickest person I have ever dealt with. Ever. Congratulations. I literally do not know anyone else in the whole wide world who could interpret it that way. And I have known some people who are legit retarded. It seems I can add another person to that list. Not even an insult. I didn't know you were mentally challenged before. I apologize for my earlier harsh behavior. I shan't argue with you again.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 17, 2014, 01:04:42 pm
I apologize for my earlier harsh behavior. I shan't argue with you again.

Good, glad my effort did not go to waste.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 17, 2014, 01:50:54 pm
I'm sure that makes sense in your brain, but the easier way to achieve that result would be to not start arguing with me, you know. You were the one replying to me, little nightmare-chan.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 17, 2014, 02:03:58 pm
I'm sure that makes sense in your brain, but the easier way to achieve that result would be to not start arguing with me, you know. You were the one replying to me, little nightmare-chan.
Oh yeah, but not arguing with you would not be as entertaining.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 17, 2014, 02:09:59 pm
Oh yeah, but not arguing with you would not be as entertaining.
You're a professional at not getting logic at all, I'll give you that much. Your previous post and this post proves it once more.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 17, 2014, 02:13:31 pm
You're a professional at not getting logic at all, I'll give you that much. Your previous post and this post proves it once more.

I knew you would not get the joke...
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 17, 2014, 02:17:53 pm
The prerequisite of a joke is that it's funny.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 17, 2014, 02:20:46 pm
The prerequisite of a joke is that it's funny.

There is another prerequisite, and that is understanding it. Something you are clearly not capable of.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Xant on January 17, 2014, 03:20:48 pm
That is not a prerequisite of a joke, actually.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 17, 2014, 05:49:46 pm
That is not a prerequisite of a joke, actually.

One may understand a joke, yet they do not have to find it funny.

But if one does not understand a joke, how can they find it funny?

Regardless if a joke is funny or not, it is still a joke.
Title: Re: "This Land is Mine"
Post by: Turkhammer on January 17, 2014, 06:32:32 pm
Chimps do have property : territories, females, food storage and clear water place...etc.

And, genetically we ARE apes... so.... we still make same wars as apes do  :mrgreen:

Ants have wars.  For all I know, bacteria probably have wars.  Humans will continue to have wars as long as some humans only see the short term attraction of using force.