cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => The Chamber of Tears => Topic started by: Chosen1 on January 08, 2014, 12:34:33 am
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It's still the most broken thing in this mod, and almost nothing has been done about it.
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it is a sad day, another brother has fallen in the Chamber of Tears.
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oh I see, any attempt to complain about the most retarded shit in the game is supposed to be in chamber of tears, my mistake.
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I agree with the OP. They need to fix the 2h stab, it doesn't work properly. It is hard to use because it doesn't work.
It's still the most broken thing in this mod, and almost nothing has been done about it.
Indeed, it is so broken that it isn't a viable attack. It needs to be repaired and improved like the other stabs which have had things done to them more recently.
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I agree with the OP. They need to fix the 2h stab, it doesn't work properly. It is hard to use because it doesn't work.
Indeed, it is so broken that it isn't a viable attack. It needs to be repaired and improved like the other stabs which have had things done to them more recently.
Except it still works after it is supposed to stop working ? Like overheads ofc.
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Except it still works after it is supposed to stop working ? Like overheads ofc.
Lolstab-lolOH are difficult enough to do than when you manage to do them (without glancing, being blocked or completely missing your opponent due to turn speed nerf) the only thing to blame is the opponent mistake.
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Lolstab-lolOH are difficult enough to do than when you manage to do them (without glancing, being blocked or completely missing your opponent due to turn speed nerf) the only thing to blame is the opponent mistake.
Doesn't make it any less broken.
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I agree with the OP. They need to fix the 2h stab, it doesn't work properly. It is hard to use because it doesn't work.
Indeed, it is so broken that it isn't a viable attack. It needs to be repaired and improved like the other stabs which have had things done to them more recently.
As a 2h that does 50% stabs in normal battle situations I have no fucking clue what you are on about. Insta-stab, check, +80 reach, check, curve your stab around teammates, check, active for way too long allowing drag-in or walk-in hits, check. Pretty broken.
1h stab, pole stab, 2h stab are all broken. 2h stab has always been broken and now they made the other stabs as broken. 2h stab still has the longest animation though, but also the lowest damage values. All 3 stabs need a nerf-tweak, which in the case of 2h is especially long overdue.
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You know, in the match between Kpu and Tor, Kpu only used a greatsword in the first round where he lost rather definitively. He switched because Tor was able to hit him two or three times due to thrust block stun. After that round he switched to a 2her that didn't have a thrust and the tables turned, ending in Kpu's favor. I believe it went 0-1 kpu - tor, 6-1, 6-2 and then finished at 7-2. It's for this reason specifically that the 2h thrust is probably considered the least problematic.
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I don't understand thrust stun. I can rarely punish anyone for it. I block, do an attack as quick as I can and they just block my swing. Same when I chamber the stab. Besides, you gotta take this out of classic duel situations. In battle the 2h stab is an amazing attack which allows you to double as a sort of support polearmer and allows you to deal damage in big group versus group situations, while a 2h is one of the best 1 vs 1 classes. In murica you all seem to get by with bec de corbins and longswords so I am not sure if you have as much group versus group situations where everybody is covering everyone, but in EU having an attack that is 1.5x your usual reach is incredibly valuable.
Also, go on duel, pick a cookie cutter longsword build and only use the stab and risk spamming it, see if you can beat anyone with just stabs.
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You know, in the match between Kpu and Tor, Kpu only used a greatsword in the first round where he lost rather definitively. He switched because Tor was able to hit him two or three times due to thrust block stun. After that round he switched to a 2her that didn't have a thrust and the tables turned, ending in Kpu's favor. I believe it went 0-1 kpu - tor, 6-1, 6-2 and then finished at 7-2. It's for this reason specifically that the 2h thrust is probably considered the least problematic.
While I'm against "fixing" the 2H stab in its current state (broken but weak except in very good hands), it wouldnt be a bad idea to reduce the thrust stun time (which mostly happens when you thrust "realistically", punishing for "correct" behaviour of the weapon) by enough to able a follow-up block for most builds and adding even more glance chance/turn speed malus/reducing sweetspot size to counter-balance the buff to 2H.
In this case, Kpu could have continued to thrust and hope, instead of switching to a 3-directional weapons which, even if more efficient in that case, still mean you have 1 less way to attack, decreasing variety of fighting.
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I don't understand thrust stun. I can rarely punish anyone for it. I block, do an attack as quick as I can and they just block my swing. Same when I chamber the stab. Besides, you gotta take this out of classic duel situations. In battle the 2h stab is an amazing attack which allows you to double as a sort of support polearmer and allows you to deal damage in big group versus group situations, while a 2h is one of the best 1 vs 1 classes. In murica you all seem to get by with bec de corbins and longswords so I am not sure if you have as much group versus group situations where everybody is covering everyone, but in EU having an attack that is 1.5x your usual reach is incredibly valuable.
Also, go on duel, pick a cookie cutter longsword build and only use the stab and risk spamming it, see if you can beat anyone with just stabs.
I don't follow, what's the point of all this?
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I don't follow, what's the point of all this?
First of all I explained my difficulty with punishing 2h stabs by using stun, and I think I am not the only one who isn't able to do that consistently. So if you say that thrust stun is the big old counter to the 2h stab, it's not for a big part of the playerbase, it is also not as useful as a counter in normal game situations compared to duel. A Kpu and Tor duel has very little to do with what I notice when I play a 2h in EU 1. In EU 1 the 2h stab is an extremely useful tool in allowing you to deal damage where weapons of similar length and speed of other classes do not allow you to.
My last point about using a longsword stab only in duel is a way to illustrate that the 2h stab remains broken, and a very easy to use and incredibly good attack even in a 1 on 1. It hits incredibly fast, I have beaten very good players using only stabs as it is simply very hard to return an attack even though I have only 120 wpf.
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Thrust-stun is most easily punished at the very end of the animation from my experience. I try to go/stay out of range until the very end of the stab, and then go in for a chamberblock or block + fast attack. Works well on greatswords and slower polearms, but the likes of 1h swords is pretty much impossible to time, because the animation is ridiculously fast and over in the blink of an eye.
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First of all I explained my difficulty with punishing 2h stabs by using stun, and I think I am not the only one who isn't able to do that consistently. So if you say that thrust stun is the big old counter to the 2h stab, it's not for a big part of the playerbase, it is also not as useful as a counter in normal game situations compared to duel. A Kpu and Tor duel has very little to do with what I notice when I play a 2h in EU 1. In EU 1 the 2h stab is an extremely useful tool in allowing you to deal damage where weapons of similar length and speed of other classes do not allow you to.
My last point about using a longsword stab only in duel is a way to illustrate that the 2h stab remains broken, and a very easy to use and incredibly good attack even in a 1 on 1. It hits incredibly fast, I have beaten very good players using only stabs as it is simply very hard to return an attack even though I have only 120 wpf.
Right... What exactly do you think I was implying with my post? That thrusts are perfectly fine and there's no reason to think they should ever be touched again? If so, this couldn't be further from the truth of what I personally believe. I was merely pointing out how ridiculous it is at the moment to single out one specific thrust animation, particularly the 2h one.
I made a proposal of what to do with all thrusts and it passed, so it will happen eventually. Unfortunately, this proposal relies on cmp doing some minor WSE work(so it'll probably happen when he gets a bit more free time on his hands).
And as far as utilizing the stun to get a hit, exactly what Gurnisson said. You also have to remember that the faster the thrusting weapon, the easier it is for them to overcome the following stun.
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Except it still works after it is supposed to stop working ? Like overheads ofc.
As a 2h that does 50% stabs in normal battle situations I have no fucking clue what you are on about. Insta-stab, check, +80 reach, check, curve your stab around teammates, check, active for way too long allowing drag-in or walk-in hits, check. Pretty broken.
1h stab, pole stab, 2h stab are all broken. 2h stab has always been broken and now they made the other stabs as broken. 2h stab still has the longest animation though, but also the lowest damage values. All 3 stabs need a nerf-tweak, which in the case of 2h is especially long overdue.
Whoops, apparently I should have toned down the sarcasm for you guys. I was responding to Chosen1's use of very vague terms to describe what he meant by using them in a way that made more sense from a semantic standpoint (a way which, I think, was the opposite of what he meant).
As for what I really think: The 2h stab is a good attack direction. It has always been one of the best attack animations, it continues to be even after a handful of changes it received long ago to reduce its effectiveness; and in comparison to attack directions with other weapons that have recently been improved it still holds its own. With many of the other animations having received sweetspot improvements (along with a lot of statistical item balance over the years), I no longer feel fully outclassed playing against someone using a 2hander who knows how to thrust, but obviously they're not helpless when they try to use it, either.
First of all I explained my difficulty with punishing 2h stabs by using stun, and I think I am not the only one who isn't able to do that consistently. So if you say that thrust stun is the big old counter to the 2h stab, it's not for a big part of the playerbase, it is also not as useful as a counter in normal game situations compared to duel.
I disagree; in a "normal game situation", such as in the battle server, fighting multiple people while using a 2handed weapon means that a split second of thrust stun is going to open you up to exponentially more potential incoming hits that will connect. If you're fighting a 2hander and your teammate blocks their thrust, you have a much easier time hitting them. Thrust stun is much more of a downside when more people are involved.
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Thrust-stun is most easily punished at the very end of the animation from my experience.
Very early block stuns a lot too, so it pushes people to lol-stab instead of stabbing directly into someone's face.
In a sense, the game does tell us that lol-stabbing is the only effective stab with 2H (if you are against a good blocker). This and ending a successfull combo/feint with a sucessfull "normal" stab, but this is harder to pull than just loling.
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I disagree; in a "normal game situation", such as in the battle server, fighting multiple people while using a 2handed weapon means that a split second of thrust stun is going to open you up to exponentially more potential incoming hits that will connect. If you're fighting a 2hander and your teammate blocks their thrust, you have a much easier time hitting them. Thrust stun is much more of a downside when more people are involved.
I think Teeth was referring to the fact that when assisting someone against an enemy that can possibly do a targetswitch against you, the stab is by far the best attack to hold, being the quickest to connect, therefore making interrupting any targetswitching attempts much easier.
Note that this makes stabs particularly powerful against light armor and poor against heavy armor despite piercing damage, as it allows extremely quick interrupts and spam at facehug range against light armor, but simply bounces against heavy armor.
Thrust stun is longest at the very end of the animation, which means doing that against all 1h and polearms with the exception of the pike and maybe the longspear is incredibly difficult (getting a late block stun on a pike would be useless anyway with the time it takes to run forward and attack back).
The way I see it, 2h stabs need their animation/sweetspot stuff changed and put back in line with the others, and a damage buff (I would call that reverting the now useless ancient nerfs). If that is not enough, change the thrust stun to be the same as 1h and polearms.
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Twohanded thrust stun can be nasty at times but most of the time it isn't, especially if you have shitload of 2H wpf and use Great Sword or faster weapon.
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2H stabs should be removed or damage cut in half: if you want to stab with a 2H sword, you should have to halfsword.
:P