cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: adieumnode on October 17, 2013, 05:46:26 am

Title: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: adieumnode on October 17, 2013, 05:46:26 am: Changing both the Heavy Lance and couch damage should never have happened, the person who decided that it was a good idea (most likely Tydeus) obviously does not understand the way Cavalry work in this game at all and what makes them legitimately overpowered when compared to other classes.

Reducing the damage of the Heavy Lance, and couch damage for all others didn't make lancers any less overpowered than they ever were, because what makes them so strong is the fact that they can be anywhere on the map extremely fast and instantly change odds in a fight to be favourable for your team, i.e there is a 3v3 happening you run there bump the enemy stab one and suddenly your team gets a ton of free hits on them and should win the fight.

Changing the actual damage of the Lance only succeeded in making lancers extremely tedious and boring to play, I have tried literally every type of lancing build since the Heavy Lance damage got nerfed and it still is the best lance if you want to actually beat people who can see you, to run at them and outrange their weapons however it takes you 4-5-6 hits or even more to kill them no matter what your build is. The only thing this does is make people use the higher damage weapons because it's amazingly unfun to take so many hits to kill someone but the playstyle of those is to attack people who don't see you, people who are unaware or engaged in fighting since their range is considerably shorter. Which you know is what makes Cavalry very annoying to play against, the ones that don't ever attack you until you are engaged with an enemy or when you don't see them.

I don't think many people legitimately complained when Heavy Lance users would engage them head on and give them a chance to kill them did they? if you got killed by someone using a heavy lance when you can see them that is entirely your own fault. Obviously I know if the heavy lance damage got boosted again most people who use it would still play the "backstabbing" cavalry style even if it's not the best weapon for it, just because most cav players are completely trash and rely on stabbing people from behind for any kills. But then you should be thankful they were using a heavy lance and not something like an arabian cavalry sword or long espada which would do more damage if you got caught unawares by it.

Also I forgot to mention earlier but cavalry who use the heavy lance are now pathetic against ranged because even the lightest armoured archer can take 3 lance hits, wheras other cavalry are just as good against them as ever.

The damage of the Heavy Lance should either be boosted up back to what it was, and the couch damage stayed nerfed or the couch damage multiplier should be boosted back up to where it can 1shot people consistently again and the lance stay nerfed. I prefer the actual damage of the lance being boosted because couches are much less skill based to hit with.

For actually nerfing Cavalry as a class, the things that should be looked at are horse stats and not the damage of the weapons. Reducing the ability for all horses to tank damage would be a pretty good start, so if a cavalry player makes any mistake (by getting their horse hit in melee) it would always die to even 1handers or ect. Removing bumps fully would also be a very good idea, so horses can only "stagger" people in that they can't block and attack while the horse runs through them instead of fully knocking them over and doing tons of damage which is brokenly good in many situations.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on October 17, 2013, 05:55:03 am: Cavalry is done being nerfed now, thanks.

(click to show/hide)
Let it also be known that Devilize can still top servers with lance cavalry so the class isn't purely broken. It just takes some skill now.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: adieumnode on October 17, 2013, 06:00:16 am: Quote from: GOBBLIN KING GREAT LEADER on October 17, 2013, 05:55:03 am
Cavalry is done being nerfed now, thanks.
Let it also be known that Devilize can still top servers with lance cavalry so the class isn't purely broken. It just takes some skill now.

Devilize is a trash cavalry player. It's not hard to top servers with the heavy lance still it's just exceedingly boring so everyone who was good at it (read: not devilize) respecced.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 17, 2013, 07:39:48 am: Quote from: adieumnode on October 17, 2013, 06:00:16 am
It's not hard to top servers with the heavy lance still...

...

Such an excellent case and foundation to build your argument on why the damage needs to be reverted :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: POOPHAMMER on October 17, 2013, 07:41:19 am: visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Xant on October 17, 2013, 08:00:25 am: Quote from: Tears of Destiny on October 17, 2013, 07:39:48 am

...

Such an excellent case and foundation to build your argument on why the damage needs to be reverted :rolleyes:
His whole point is that the damage nerf doesn't make them less overpowered. Therefore it follows that it would still be easy to top the scoreboards with a heavy lance build.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: rufio on October 17, 2013, 08:02:33 am
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Legs on October 17, 2013, 09:01:31 am: The heavy lance feels underpowered to me, but then again I use a default non-heirloomed lance, with only 4 power strike, and am spoiled by how good it was pre-nerf. Often when I hit people with it, it feels like I'm just kind of poking them and not actually dealing any meaningful amount of damage, especially at low speed.

Increasing the thrust damage by one measly point would be a very welcome change and would probably make lancers happy without upsetting the delicate cRPG ecosystem. Either way I don't really care because I'm getting a masterworked heavy lance and increasing my power strike so that I can skewer scrubs like back in the old days.

Quote from: GOBBLIN KING GREAT LEADER on October 17, 2013, 05:55:03 am
Let it also be known that Devilize can still top servers with lance cavalry so the class isn't purely broken. It just takes some skill now.

Devilize is not a good example. His insanely low ping (~12) means that he can do things that other players just can't.

If some oldschool turbolancer like Huey, TommyHu, Hobb, etc, was still tearing it up that would be one thing, but Devilize... just... no.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Torben on October 17, 2013, 09:56:07 am: even giving it more speed would be a great buff, its just such a predictable weapon atm, and the little damage output makes it so very important to land the hit perfectly. which however the target can elude because of aforementioned slow ass predictability.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Teeth on October 17, 2013, 11:03:13 am: Quote from: Legs on October 17, 2013, 09:01:31 am
His insanely low ping (~12) means that he can do things that other players just can't.
Maybe you should stop pretending that 12 ping is a huge advantage compared to 50 ping, it's not. If someone with 12 ping is a better player than you with 50, he will still be a better player if it was the other way around.

I use a Light Lance cause its the only one we have in the armoury and it allows me to fight infantry head on fairly well, most infantry suck at using their max reach. Heavy Lance requires a 1 or 2 pierce damage buff regardless and a price decrease. Price was only increased as an attempt to balance through upkeep, which of course failed, so now that they balanced by stats, the earlier balance attempt should be undone.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Gurnisson on October 17, 2013, 03:17:22 pm: I thought lance cavalry was rather underpowered because I'd only played it with Heavy Lance. I got hold of a +3 Lance and wanted to try lance cav again, and the change in effectiveness (for half the price..) was just stunning. Heavy (g)lance needs a small pierce buff, speed buff and/or damage decrease. It's garbage right now while the regular lance and the light lance are a good weapons while being a lot cheaper.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: adieumnode on October 17, 2013, 03:26:54 pm: A speed buff would be a nerf to the heavy lance since a slower speed = more damage from speed bonus which of course is great for cavalry (and the main reason why even just the nerf from 27p to 24p was a HUGE deal for it, because of the difference that makes when combined with the speed bonus) a slower speed also means it "hangs" in the air longer which actually makes it easier to hit with than faster lances.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Torben on October 17, 2013, 04:33:33 pm: Quote from: adieumnode on October 17, 2013, 03:26:54 pm
A speed buff would be a nerf to the heavy lance since a slower speed = more damage from speed bonus which of course is great for cavalry (and the main reason why even just the nerf from 27p to 24p was a HUGE deal for it, because of the difference that makes when combined with the speed bonus) a slower speed also means it "hangs" in the air longer which actually makes it easier to hit with than faster lances.

the former is a wide spread rumor which devs have confirmed not to be true, I used to think it as well. concerning the latter: you dont need a long hanging lance if you do your timing right, but have a lot more aggressive capabilities with a faster weapon. also the weapon doesnt do enough damage to use the heavy lances long hang outside of its sweetspot.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on October 17, 2013, 04:57:14 pm: I say no to un-nerfing heavy lance? Why you say? Because I traded my +3 heavy lance when they nerfed the shit out of it for a +3 lance. I also had to give up a +1 pair of gloves.

Still the best trade I've ever made. Man is the heavy lance a piece of shit. It's not as bad now that they added 1 more damage to it from the nerf, but it's still pretty terrible. It's tolerable if you're on a fast horse and only trying to take out other cav, or squishy archers.

The price of the heavy lance makes no sense right now, that's pretty obvious.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: adieumnode on October 17, 2013, 05:18:34 pm: Quote from: Torben on October 17, 2013, 04:33:33 pm
the former is a wide spread rumor which devs have confirmed not to be true, I used to think it as well. concerning the latter: you dont need a long hanging lance if you do your timing right, but have a lot more aggressive capabilities with a faster weapon. also the weapon doesnt do enough damage to use the heavy lances long hang outside of its sweetspot.

It's definitely true.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 17, 2013, 05:19:38 pm: I'm going to write a lengthier post later, but as Legs says, you can't use Devilize as an example. He has low ping, is level 35 with a priority in all things lancing, has played more hours than most as just that class, and as far as I know, every item he wears is +3 and wears extremely heavy armor. He has no hybridization, the only points he could have arguably spent differently is not having 7ath, and instead going for a more cookie cutter build with either 24 ago or str. To say Devilize represents an average lancer is the furthest you can get from the truth. Furthermore, if you want to look at what is average, you'll see that most lancers have up lancing for more effective builds after the nerf. Another person who fit a similar profile as Devilize is Rohy. Rohy gave up lancing, respecced out if it, respecced back into it to try a +3 lance and respecced out of it again. He has not gone back. And to top things off, Devilize has been using a Morningstar, +0 from horseback instead, while still carrying an elegant poleaxe on his back.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Torben on October 17, 2013, 05:55:41 pm: Quote from: adieumnode on October 17, 2013, 05:18:34 pm
It's definitely true.

lol
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: ROHYPNOL on October 17, 2013, 06:19:14 pm: Quote from: adieumnode on October 17, 2013, 05:46:26 am
For actually nerfing Cavalry as a class, the things that should be looked at are horse stats and not the damage of the weapons. Reducing the ability for all horses to tank damage would be a pretty good start, so if a cavalry player makes any mistake (by getting their horse hit in melee) it would always die to even 1handers or ect. Removing bumps fully would also be a very good idea, so horses can only "stagger" people in that they can't block and attack while the horse runs through them instead of fully knocking them over and doing tons of damage which is brokenly good in many situations.

I agree with the fact that heavy lance needs a serious buff and should have never been nerfed. I like many of your ideas, but you have some rather drastic ones also.. Remove bumps, and horses die instantly to every weapon.. Not sure about that one
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Matey on October 17, 2013, 07:35:57 pm: I like the ideas... I personally think (and have said many many times) that horses are the worst part of this game. Nothing ruins the game for me more than getting poached by some asshole on a horse who is able to outmanoeuvre my 9athletics light armour ass because he has 4+ points in riding and can blatantly miss with his weapon but knock me down and get me killed... or just run straight at me, absorb my attack and then run me over and hit me by swinging wildy in the air while im on the ground under his horse.

The cav that doesn't annoy the shit out of me are the ones who will actually fight me when I'm looking at them, it can still be annoying if you are trying to go do something else and they keep making passes at you... but if I at least have a chance of fighting back then it doesn't enrage me as much.

You can run ranged players down (if they are on foot) but you can't run down cowardly cav which is why i hate them 2nd most and ranged cav most... common theme being horses.

Another issue with horses everywhere is that the only decent counter to horses is ranged. More horses? more ranged. More ranged? more everyone crying about ranged. Nerfing horses ability to soak melee damage and making it more attractive to not be a cowardly piece of shit when on a horse could well lead to less people feeling the need to have ranged and thus less ranged in general and less tears in general! (I can dream)

Anyways.. I am obviously biased and lobbying and blah blah but I still like the idea of buffing the heavy lance and nerfing horse bumps and horse hp (against melee)
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Penitent on October 17, 2013, 08:55:26 pm: Cav is underpowered right now, and lances/couching are only part of the reason...but they should be fixed.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Teeth on October 17, 2013, 11:03:36 pm: Quote from: Torben on October 17, 2013, 04:33:33 pm
the former is a wide spread rumor which devs have confirmed not to be true, I used to think it as well.
Can you find me a quote of that or can a dev confirm this? From playing with a pike I'd say slow weapons do get affected more by speed bonus. I sometimes have to stab running archers in the head 3 times, while I sometimes oneshot medium to heavy armour infantry moving towards me. Anecdotal evidence, but nonetheless a very strong difference which I cannot explain otherwise. It also simply makes sense. The impact of a slow moving object influenced relatively more by speed differences of the target than a faster moving object. Case and point, throwing. Move towards a thrower as cav and they will do a fuck ton of damage while they can whiff when riding away, this does not apply nearly as much comes to arrows, because the speed of a horse is relatively low compared to the speed of an arrow.

I'd say the same would apply to slow moving weapons.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Ronin on October 17, 2013, 11:07:15 pm: Maybe it's just the nature of slow weapons in general, greater damage. They benefit more from speed bonus because they have more base damage.

Gotta test in Singleplayer.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Vodner on October 18, 2013, 03:55:08 am: Quote from: Ronin on October 17, 2013, 11:07:15 pm
Maybe it's just the nature of slow weapons in general, greater damage. They benefit more from speed bonus because they have more base damage.

Gotta test in Singleplayer.
Best thing to do would be to take a weapon, test it on some training dummies, then mod the weapon so that it has incredibly low speed and repeat the test. I expect that's what you're already doing, though.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: POOPHAMMER on October 18, 2013, 11:15:07 am: free BADPLAYER
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Torben on October 18, 2013, 11:30:04 am: thread: http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/fix-1h-2hcav-balance/

me thinking pikes and heavy lance getting better speed bonus damage:
http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/fix-1h-2hcav-balance/msg688179/#msg688179

cmp schooling us:
http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/fix-1h-2hcav-balance/msg688194/#msg688194
http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/fix-1h-2hcav-balance/msg688211/#msg688211
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Torben on October 18, 2013, 12:07:36 pm: woha oppermabanned. asked too many questions, eh? :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Teeth on October 18, 2013, 06:33:57 pm: Quote from: Torben on October 18, 2013, 11:30:04 am
thread: http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/fix-1h-2hcav-balance/

me thinking pikes and heavy lance getting better speed bonus damage:
http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/fix-1h-2hcav-balance/msg688179/#msg688179

cmp schooling us:
http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/fix-1h-2hcav-balance/msg688194/#msg688194
http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/fix-1h-2hcav-balance/msg688211/#msg688211
Wow, I am so surprised here, but yeah he did say it. Technically this means that a bamboo spear should do more damage than my pike, which I find a ridiculous notion from having played with both. Can't really believe it.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: Hobb on October 19, 2013, 06:49:37 pm: The more you nerf the lance and compensate by giving bump damage, the more you encourage back-stabbing. This is why I have no faith in the devs when it comes to balancing cav. If you put the best lancers on the balance team, like devilize or roh, or some the good eu guys, I think you would get a way more balanced cav class.

I think we can all agree that all you really did to lancers was made the playstyle more annoying. Despite popular belief, the rider on a horse is incredibly fragile. Speed bonus works both ways, and a throwing weapon, a pike stab, 2h swing/thrust will 1shot any rider at full speed. I wore a +3 churburg (18str, 6if) and I had to bring a shield on my courser because I couldnt tank more than two arrows.

Yet, before I respecced half-way through 35 (not because of the nerfs btw) I had the same 3:1 K:D I had during the glory lance days.(before I quit retiring, I usually had 4:1 average cav builds, but i never spawned off horse) I did way more scavaging/spawn protecting/back stabbing/ cav hunting then I used to post lance/couch nerf.

But any lancer will tell you that charging a infantry piker/2h that is isolated isnt worth it, because you need to lance him 3-4 times while they just need to get you once. Yet a bump/lance with a heavy horse, or a bump/couch with a courser is still a 1shot.

In NA, I would make the obviously bias statement that the best pure lancer heavy cav is my brother, Habb. 15-27 no ath or IF, and even at lvl 34 he still has over a 4:1 k:d. yet prob 1/3 his kills are cataphract bumps and prob half the damge he delivers is from charge.

Its easier to bump when the enemy is fighting or unaware. Bumping is worth it more now than pre-nerf. devs have encouraged more cavmy old friendgatry, less "skill."

my suggestion: scale back bump damage significantly, and either speed horses up accross the board or give the lances some love again.
Title: Re: Whoever nerfed lance/couch damage is a dumbfuck: The Thread
Post by: MURDERTRON on October 19, 2013, 08:16:44 pm: Hobb has some pretty good points. 1h stab now 1 hit kills cav players and is incredibly easy to hit. Basically you removed any reason for a cavalry player to ever challenge an aware opponent other than bad ranged or three directional 1h. You've also removed basically any reason for any non-ranged cav to use an non armored horse. Worst of all, you've pushed more players into playing horse archers. The lance at this point mostly serves as a deterrent against conservative players from trying to stab you, making them block and hoping you get the bump. 2h and 1h weapons do more damage, have far more versatility and since you should never challenge aware opponents the reach of the weapon hardly matters, which is all the lance had going for it.