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Off Topic => Historical Discussion => Topic started by: Herkkutatti666 on September 02, 2013, 07:55:20 pm

Title: Battle of Raate Road [winter war]
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on September 02, 2013, 07:55:20 pm


Battle of Raate Road

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Date - January 1 – January 7, 1940

Location - Eastern Finland

Result - Finnish victory

 

Belligerents

Finland
   
Soviet Union


Commanders and leaders

Finland - Hjalmar Siilasvuo
-
Soviet Union  - Alexey Vinogradov


Strength

 
10,000
 
13,962-25 000


Casualties and losses

402 killed Est.
at least 7,000–9,000 killed, 1300 captured
 
 




 

The Battle of Raate Road was fought during the Winter War between the Soviet Union and Finland in January 1940, as a part of the Battle of Suomussalmi.

On December 7, 1939, the Soviet 163rd Division captured Suomussalmi, but found itself trapped deep inside Finnish territory, and the Soviet 44th Rifle (Ukrainian) Division was sent to aid the 163rd. Over the next week, Colonel Hjalmar Siilasvuo's outnumbered 9th Division stopped and decisively defeated the Soviet forces on the Raate-Suomussalmi road. This battle proved the effectiveness of Finnish motti tactics.





 
Background

During the battle of Suomussalmi, the Finns cut the Raate road on December 11, 1939. The action blocked the second, southern supply route to the Soviet 163rd Rifle Division in the town of Suomussalmi.The Finns also cut the first, northern supply route on 13 December, and the Soviets were forced to open a new supply route through Lake Kiantajärvi. The 163rd Division was nearly surrounded and suffered major casualties in Suomussalmi. The situation was getting worse, and on 20 December the commander of the 163rd Division, Andrei Zelentsov, asked permission to retreat from Suomussalmi. In response, part of the 44th Division, the 1st Battalion of the 305th Infantry Regiment, and the 3rd Battalion of the 662nd Infantry Regiment, were sent to reinforce the 163rd Division troops near Suomussalmi. Zelentsov's concerns were not understood at Red Army headquarters, as the entire 44th Division was about to move along the Raate road.

Most military historians date the battle of the Raate road from 1 January to 7 January 1940. The Raate road was though a battlefield during the entire Winter War. Before the main battle against the 44th Division, the Finns fought retreat battles against a part of 163rd Division on the Raate road. Furthermore, some battles were fought on the east side, near the border, on the road during the rest of the Winter War.

The battle

At the start of the battle of Raate road, Siilasvuo's 9th Division had already destroyed the Russian 163rd Division. After that, it received orders to destroy the Soviet 44th Division, which was stopped on the road near Haukila, 12 kilometers from Suomussalmi. The Finnish 9th Division was split in four squadrons, each named after their commanders. The decisive battle was ordered to begin on January 5, 1940, 08:30.

The battles focused on Haukila, where most of the Soviet troops were located and where squadrons "Mandelin" and "Mäkiniemi" attacked. Squadron "Mäkiniemi" had started moving towards Haukila a few days before the official attack. At the same time, the fresh 3rd NKVD Border Guard Regiment was just arriving to assist the Soviet 44th Division. By the following morning, the Finnish troops held strong blocking positions reinforced with mines at several points in the midst of the Soviet column. During January 6, heavy fighting occurred all along the Raate road as the Finns continued to break up the enemy forces into smaller pieces. The Soviets attempted to overrun Finnish roadblocks with armor, losing numerous tanks in frontal attacks, but were unsuccessful. Finally, at 21:30, Vinogradov belatedly ordered his division to retreat back to the Soviet border.

The despairing Soviet troops began to escape north over Lake Kiantajärvi. Many soldiers froze to death without proper clothing or supply; one Finnish soldier said he saw Soviet soldiers in a frozen campsite and had to poke one in the eye with a stick to see if he was really dead. Remnants of Soviet units had already tried to escape to the east, but were blocked by squadron "Kari". Further in the east, squadron "my old friendernäs" could not keep a strategic bridge under Finnish control. On January 7, squadron "my old friendernäs" recaptured the bridge and before noon all Soviet resistance was suppressed. The mopping-up went on for two days, during which the Finns rounded up hundreds of starving, frozen Ukrainians. Other remnants of the 44th Division managed to escape the blockade and reach the border in several small groups.[clarification needed did they break through the blockade, slip through or evade it altogether?]

The Finnish army captured a huge amount of materiel in this battle.


 



Captured material


Finnish statistics

Soviet statistics


4,822 rifles
4,340 rifles

106 machine guns
97 machine guns

190 light machine guns 
252 light machine guns

71 artillery pieces
55 artillery pieces

29 anti-tank guns
30 anti-tank guns

14 anti-tank rifles
12 anti-tank rifles

43 tanks
37 tanks

10 armored cars 
260 trucks 
20 tractors 
2 cars 
1,170 horses
 


Casualties

 


For many years, Finnish historians estimated the Soviet losses to be around 17,000 men. The estimation was based on the interrogation of the prisoners of war captured in early January. Officers of the Soviet 27th Infantry Regiment had given their casualties at 70 percent and the Finns assumed that the strength of the 44th Division was over 20,000 men. Western historians conformed their figures to Finnish estimations. The Soviets challenged the number of casualties published in the Western world immediately in January and claimed to have lost no more than 900 men, mostly from frostbite, while inflicting an estimated 2,000 Finn fatalities. Later Finnish historians conducted further efforts to ascertain the number of Soviet casualties in the battle. The Finns captured over 5,000 rifles, and, furthermore, a tag[clarification needed] of the North Finland Group showed the Finns replaced 1,200 old rifles with the newer Soviet models. Most recent Finnish studies indicate that the Soviets lost at least 7,000–9,000 men.

The Finns quickly buried the Soviet dead as the weather warmed during the early spring to reduce the risk of epidemics. Mass graves were marked on maps and were mounted with a cross or a pole. Later the maps disappeared. Around Easter, the Soviets made a request that they would like to gather the dead and bring them back home, but the Finns did not allow Soviet Army officials to cross the border but the Finns delivered 300 bodies from near the village of Raate to Soviet officials. After the Continuation War, the Soviets were not interested in their deceased. The Red Army occupied the Raate road shortly, gathered wartime junk but left the bodies alone. The fate of the Ukrainian Division remained unmentioned in Soviet historiography for decades.

According to the Russian historian Yuri Kilin, the Stavka set up a research commission in January 1940 to investigate the number of casualties. The Commission reported 4,674 total casualties: 1,001 dead, 1,430 wounded and 2,243 missing. At the turn of the year, the strength of the division was 13,962 men and by the end of the Raate Road battle it was at 9,288 men. According to the report, the division was understaffed, because two battalions of the 305th Infantry Regiment were deployed elsewhere. Kilin calculated that some troops returned after the report, so the number of the missing is lower. Later, research by the Ukrainian historian Oleg Bozhko yielded similar numbers as he used the same source. The Stavka report was published in January 1940, in the middle of the Winter War. The statistics of the report start from 1 January, and by this time the division had already suffered heavy losses for two weeks. The Stavka report did not mention casualties suffered on the Raate Road by other units, along the advancement of the 44th Division.


Soviet executions

The Soviet commander, Vinogradov, and two of his chief officers, Volkov and Pahomov, retreated in the middle of crucial battles. According to the Stavka report, this act had a fatal influence on morale. As they reached the Soviet lines four days later they were court-martialed, found guilty and sentenced to death; the executions were carried out immediately. The Stavka itself had made the crucial decisions to keep the 44th Division on the Raate Road after the 163rd had lost Suomussalmi village.

The Ukrainian veteran of the Raate Road Sergeant Pyotr Andrevitch Morozov was interviewed in 1991 by the Finnish non-fiction writer Leo Karttimo. According to Morozov the Finns returned prisoners of war, but none of them managed to get back to Ukraine as the Soviet secret service NKVD executed them all in summer 1940.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raate_Road
Title: Re: Just leaving this here..
Post by: Latvian on September 02, 2013, 08:07:30 pm
russians suck at fighting, nothing new, keep moving.
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road
Post by: Christo on September 02, 2013, 08:18:28 pm
Yes, we heard about the winter war, chill with the national pride.  :wink:
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on September 02, 2013, 08:19:19 pm
Yes, we heard about the winter war, chill with the national pride.  :wink:
Not enough!
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road [winter war]
Post by: Christo on September 02, 2013, 08:21:45 pm
Although I have major admiration and respect for anyone kicking Ruskie ass.

Especially kicking the big Bear in the ass on it's own playground, the cold.
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road
Post by: Panos_ on September 02, 2013, 08:37:07 pm
Yes, we heard about the winter war, chill with the national pride.  :wink:

there is nothing wrong with having national pride.

God, I hate people who try to act all cool and modern and want to forget their history just because they are afraid of being called racist/neonazees/fascists.

Nationalist and proud baby.
Title: Re: Just leaving this here..
Post by: Nightmare798 on September 02, 2013, 08:46:12 pm
russians suck at fighting, nothing new, keep moving.

russians are like imperial guard, they have shit army and equipment, but they still win because they can afford to lose millions upon millions of people every day.
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road [winter war]
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on September 03, 2013, 11:38:13 am
Personally, i hope, that people will unite under a banner of Liberal Democracy, and not some specific ethnic, cultural or religious group, as these groups tend to exclude everyone else, and eventually cause illogical aggression... What good can come out of one country proclaiming superiority?
 
Work, and do your job properly - that is how i see the key to success in 2013. Saying - "I am the best, because of what my ancestors did", is a way that leads nowhere in my opinion.
China is a major power now, not because of what their emperors achieved for a thousand years ago, but because they study, and work extremely hard. Look at Mongolia - a huge empire once, dusty fields of emptiness now.
 
As for that specific battle - i could write 1000000 pages about heroic victories of Russia in the past 700 years, but i will not mock anyone out of respect for the fallen men on both sides.
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road [winter war]
Post by: Torben on September 03, 2013, 12:19:47 pm
ofc its a great achievement on finnish side (mostly in terms of boldness),  but looking at russian leadership and the overall state of their army to that time does put this war into perspective. Comparable  to the early stages of barbarossa/great patriotic war.

I really wouldnt want to have been a russian soldier in that era...
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road
Post by: Teeth on September 03, 2013, 12:27:42 pm
there is nothing wrong with having national pride.

God, I hate people who try to act all cool and modern and want to forget their history just because they are afraid of being called racist/neonazees/fascists.

Nationalist and proud baby.
Nationalism is a weed that needs to be purged from humanity.
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 05, 2013, 12:46:02 am
there is nothing wrong with having national pride.

God, I hate people who try to act all cool and modern and want to forget their history just because they are afraid of being called racist/neonazees/fascists.

Nationalist and proud baby.
I understand being interested specifically in your ancestors history, but prioritizing your nations history over general history seems really silly to me, that might just be because my nation hasn't existed very long, and unlike Greece my nation isn't loosely associated with any nations of the past besides the one USA rebelled from.
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road [winter war]
Post by: Shik on September 05, 2013, 05:16:43 pm
hjalmar and mannerheim were swedes anyways
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road
Post by: Oberyn on September 07, 2013, 03:48:32 pm
Nationalism is a weed that needs to be purged from humanity.

Hipster idiots. Great idea brah, destroy any sense of community or tribalism, I'm sure the rest of the world will be right behind you.
Actually I'm sorry to tell you that unlike the "grasseater", neutered eunuchs developped countries have tried so hard to turn into, the rest of the world isn't arrogant or stupidly suicidal enough to think that  encouraging everything that goes against the interests of their ethnic group is a noble thing. Fucking martyrdom obsessed, self-flagellating, ignorant morons. Keep pretending you aren't part of a cultural/tribal grouping and that the very idea is just so dumb and has never brought anything but pain and misery, I'm sure that will make it true.  :lol:
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road [winter war]
Post by: Oberyn on September 07, 2013, 03:53:19 pm
Personally, i hope, that people will unite under a banner of Liberal Democracy, and not some specific ethnic, cultural or religious group, as these groups tend to exclude everyone else, and eventually cause illogical aggression... What good can come out of one country proclaiming superiority?
 
Work, and do your job properly - that is how i see the key to success in 2013. Saying - "I am the best, because of what my ancestors did", is a way that leads nowhere in my opinion.
China is a major power now, not because of what their emperors achieved for a thousand years ago, but because they study, and work extremely hard. Look at Mongolia - a huge empire once, dusty fields of emptiness now.
 
As for that specific battle - i could write 1000000 pages about heroic victories of Russia in the past 700 years, but i will not mock anyone out of respect for the fallen men on both sides.

Yeah, ask Francis Fukuyama about that, that's pretty much his "End of History" theory, that he distanced himself from as soon as he realized people aren't fucking automatons, and the world and humanity wasn't going to suddenly change just because a small portion of the world population deluded themselves into accepting a kumbaya fairy story ideology. People are people, as soon as you start treating them as "rational" actors you end up with cold, clinical theories like pure capitalism and communism, that completely ignore human nature in favour of some bullshit projection of what they want humans to be like. Is/should fallacy.

PS: The only reason China even exists today as political and ethnic entity is PRECISELY because of their past history, not least the cultural imperialism that transformed dozens of disparate ethnicities into a more or less unified one. Pretty much exactly the same way that the ethnicity "french" was largely constructed out of dozens of disparate tribal, ethnic and linguistic groups that were only tangentially related to each other. Every single country, nation, culture that currently exists today exists only because of a sense of tribalism and community. You know what happened to the ones that didn't have it, or weren't "strong" enough? They got absorbed by ones that did, or dissapeared.
I find it particularly ironic you use China as an example considering how culturally/ethnically imperialist they are, and how much their identity is linked to their past, ESPECIALLY the most powerful and widespread chinese empires. They're possibly the most nationalistic developed/ing (it's both really) country in the world at the moment.
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road
Post by: Teeth on September 08, 2013, 12:36:33 pm
Hipster idiots. Great idea brah, destroy any sense of community or tribalism, I'm sure the rest of the world will be right behind you.
Actually I'm sorry to tell you that unlike the "grasseater", neutered eunuchs developped countries have tried so hard to turn into, the rest of the world isn't arrogant or stupidly suicidal enough to think that  encouraging everything that goes against the interests of their ethnic group is a noble thing. Fucking martyrdom obsessed, self-flagellating, ignorant morons. Keep pretending you aren't part of a cultural/tribal grouping and that the very idea is just so dumb and has never brought anything but pain and misery, I'm sure that will make it true.  :lol:
I of course over-acted my stance on nationalism with my statement to match Panos his blatant nationalism glorifying and to provoke, but nevertheless I don't see nationalism as a positive force, not now and not in the past. I am not saying anything about intentionally acting against the interests of your culture/group, but allowing your culture/group to define your interests is a risky road because it causes cultures/groups to exalt themselves and demonize the 'other', with potentially destructive results. Of course nationalism is deeply rooted and present throughout everyone's thinking, including me, and it will continue to be an important force for many a century, it's importance of course varying throughout world regions as it already does today.

Nevertheless it's importance can and most likely will decrease. Nationalism is indeed a larger form of community thinking. As those communities have grown in size from villages/tribes to states, the diversity within the community has increased and the relative difference with other communities has decreased. Combined with much greater mobility and communication with other groups I think nationalism is definitely in decline, which I'd say causes us to live in a better world. Maybe the size of our communities will at some point increase to regions like Europe and maybe even the world at some point. Kumbaya indeed, don't worry I am not forgetting that this is centuries away and that it seems completely incompatible with some regions in the world.

Also, why is it that you're always such an utter cunt in your posts?
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road
Post by: darmaster on September 08, 2013, 12:57:11 pm
Also, why is it that you're always such an utter cunt in your posts?

that is so true lel


the rest of the world isn't arrogant or stupidly suicidal enough to think that  encouraging everything that goes against the interests of their ethnic group is a noble thing.

i don't get it; where did he say that?
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road
Post by: Oberyn on September 08, 2013, 01:26:00 pm
I of course over-acted my stance on nationalism with my statement to match Panos his blatant nationalism glorifying and to provoke, but nevertheless I don't see nationalism as a positive force, not now and not in the past. I am not saying anything about intentionally acting against the interests of your culture/group, but allowing your culture/group to define your interests is a risky road because it causes cultures/groups to exalt themselves and demonize the 'other', with potentially destructive results. Of course nationalism is deeply rooted and present throughout everyone's thinking, including me, and it will continue to be an important force for many a century, it's importance of course varying throughout world regions as it already does today.

Nevertheless it's importance can and most likely will decrease. Nationalism is indeed a larger form of community thinking. As those communities have grown in size from villages/tribes to states, the diversity within the community has increased and the relative difference with other communities has decreased. Combined with much greater mobility and communication with other groups I think nationalism is definitely in decline, which I'd say causes us to live in a better world. Maybe the size of our communities will at some point increase to regions like Europe and maybe even the world at some point. Kumbaya indeed, don't worry I am not forgetting that this is centuries away and that it seems completely incompatible with some regions in the world.

Also, why is it that you're always such an utter cunt in your posts?

It probably has something to do with being an utter cunt  :o. And yeah, I'd agree with part of your logic. As I see it nationalism is the latest link in the chain of tribalistic identity that defines the way humans relate to each other, and it's actually the most inclusive form that currently exists.

Where I disagree is when you say that nationalism is "definetely in decline". That's only accurate for a vanishingly small portion of the world population, and it's a relatively recent development. The idea that a reduction of nationalist/ethnic identity is an inevitable development linked to industrialization and wealth is belied by every single developped country that isn't "western". Japan being the most obvious example, it's been at "western" levels of industry and wealth since at least the 19th century, and despite the same post WW2, Cold War M.A.D environment it is still an incredibly closed in, culturally supremacist, ethnically homogenous country.

This idea that "oh, obviously the entire world will go through the exact same ideological and political developments that the "west" does" is just an arrogant form of ethnocentrism. Those changes in the "west" have been a conscious reaction by economists, the social sciences, politicans, policy makers, philosophers, etc... to an increasingly connected world in which total war is no longer a possibility and actually counterproductive to the goal of amassing wealth. The idea that other cultures the world over will reach those same conclusions because they are so self-evidently right and good is incredibly naive and idealistic, and yes arrogant. The only reason this happened in the "west" at all was due to the complete destruction of Europe in WW2, the collapse of it's colonial empires and the rise of the US in the power vacuum created. The perception of immigration and multiculturalism as overall positive and beneficial is uniquely a "western" phenomenon created by these factors.
Title: Re: Battle of Raate Road [winter war]
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on September 09, 2013, 04:17:22 pm
Yeah, ask Francis Fukuyama about that, that's pretty much his "End of History" theory, that he distanced himself from as soon as he realized people aren't fucking automatons, and the world and humanity wasn't going to suddenly change just because a small portion of the world population deluded themselves into accepting a kumbaya fairy story ideology. People are people, as soon as you start treating them as "rational" actors you end up with cold, clinical theories like pure capitalism and communism, that completely ignore human nature in favour of some bullshit projection of what they want humans to be like. Is/should fallacy.

PS: The only reason China even exists today as political and ethnic entity is PRECISELY because of their past history, not least the cultural imperialism that transformed dozens of disparate ethnicities into a more or less unified one. Pretty much exactly the same way that the ethnicity "french" was largely constructed out of dozens of disparate tribal, ethnic and linguistic groups that were only tangentially related to each other. Every single country, nation, culture that currently exists today exists only because of a sense of tribalism and community. You know what happened to the ones that didn't have it, or weren't "strong" enough? They got absorbed by ones that did, or dissapeared.
I find it particularly ironic you use China as an example considering how culturally/ethnically imperialist they are, and how much their identity is linked to their past, ESPECIALLY the most powerful and widespread chinese empires. They're possibly the most nationalistic developed/ing (it's both really) country in the world at the moment.

For once Oberyn, i disagree with you... I chose China, as it is such a clear example of political and economical reforms producing such a quick result, in terms of a huge country! I do not see how linking their identity to their past, made them achieve what they did today, in any way. :shock: But since I am not an expert on China, i will not insist. 
 
Tell me one thing, what is it humanity/nation/tribe wants to achieve in the very end?.. I believe, that liberal and socialistic ideas of what you call "neutered eunuchs developed countries", is what will eventually develop in every country, where basic needs of it's citizens are satisfied ( according to some: physical needs, security and respect of ones "ego"/self ). 
 
Some, like Nietzsche, might call democracy a victory of slaves, where the weakest, dumb majority, controls and restricts the "best and strongest" in society, a secular form of christianity - religion of slaves. Even if that is so, a society of slaves AND masters - is way more disgusting and humiliating. I do not believe that any person, however talented, gifted, or, better say ambitious, is worthy of being a master of others, less fortunate humans, since i believe that every single human is corrupt and unnatural. And I refuse to be a part of a nationalistic Hive, where i am nothing but tiny tool of creating an abstract, fragile and short lasting entity of "Nation", while suffering hardships throughout my entire life, for the better good of the future. Fuck the future! I don't own those, yet unborn, fuckers anything!
 
And when you talk about "the rest of the World", who is clinching to nationalism and racism, one thing comes to my mind - if humans were not seeking safety, comfort, respect ( however worthless is respect, that is equal to everyone else's respect... ) and satisfaction of basic biological needs, then why are there so many immigrants/refugees coming to US and Europe?.. And if liberal democracy is able to sustain a quality of life with happy population ( have a look at "happiness charts" in google ), why would someone still go the dangerous way of nationalism? Yeah, as always in history - to cover for internal problems: "We were great, we are great, it is our neighbors fault we live like shit".

-----------------
I apologies for the wall of text, and not being able to write or think as clearly, as others can, but i hope the general idea is there, somewhere... :)