cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: cutsomecheesewithmybow on January 07, 2011, 05:26:47 am

Title: My views on archery.
Post by: cutsomecheesewithmybow on January 07, 2011, 05:26:47 am
It's late so I'll keep things simple.

First of all the cutting damage on bows is silly. Made me think of cheese slicers (hence my nickname).

Next, there is and has been too big of a gap between bows damage. Hunters bow can't do squat while warbow puts the war in the bow. The damage range should be shortened (from 15-30 to let's say 20-27 or so). Arrow speed, bow speed and accuracy should make up for fixing the gap because now there is next to no difference between top 4 bows aside from PD requirement and damage.

Also the WP requirement for bows is too high - until 120 bow proficiency you shoot *in some general direction* which makes things harder not only for you but also for the person you are shooting at because it is hard to avoid getting shot if you have no idea where the shot might be shot (on the other hand if you use a low tier bow by said time you don't do much damage so it balances itself, at least from your opposer's point of view). In my opinion this is the gap that should be broaden, so people could use hunting bows alike with 60 or some WP with some ease, while longbow should remain a treat for the most determined.

Last but not least I do not like that the top tier bows have been shrunken. It is hard to determine if another archer posed any threat before he shoots you.

My post is not based on any rl archery experience as I do not care at all about archery in rl, I just played a few archer builds (including exotic onces like 30 AGI, 10 WM rush) and I can clearly see lack of balance in crpgs archery.

tl;dr version: powerful bows are too powerful, weak bows are too weak, archery is more luck than skill based.
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: PhantomZero on January 07, 2011, 05:43:44 am
I feel that there should be some way to tie the damage type in with arrows instead of the bow, or make only the Longbow and Warbow piercing.

Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Murchad on January 07, 2011, 08:37:42 pm
Phantomzero
I have thought about that too but it seems to complicated
the way i was thinking if there was a way
bodkin arrows = pierce but low damage
broadhead arrows = cut high damage
that way bodkin better vs heavy armor and broadhead vs light.
but if they did that how would you choose which one you shot if you had 2 diff kind of arrows
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: PhantomZero on January 07, 2011, 08:56:07 pm
You could use X to rotate through your different quivers.
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Keshian on January 07, 2011, 09:08:13 pm
The accuracy has kind of gone in the toilet for warbows/longbows, havent tried it out with lower power drw (weaker bows) higher wpf (at 162 now thanks to wpf soft cap and level cap).  Take away tons of damage, make it cutting, slow down the draw speed drastically,  thats all well and good, but when you destroy the accuracy as well it just become a joke class.  People in my clan talk about how killing archers is boring now because there is no challenge, theyc ant hurt you and theya re lightly armore.  Essentially chadz decided to make archers into peasants.  I never saw him use ana rcher character so maybe he just doesnt like the class, but its reallys illy at this point as they were a valuable counter to light ccavalry, other rnaged, and 2H tincans with sword of tears and no shield.  Instead throwers (1 hit killers with pierce damage), xbowmen (1 hit kills with pierce)  (both do not only more damage buta lso pierce damage), melee spammers with heavy mail armor, and shielders are always topping the charts and decide every fight.  The pendulum has swung to the complete opposite side (back to the original  pre-pre-patch where 2H spam machines dominated) and threw the idea of balance out the window.
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Murchad on January 07, 2011, 09:13:12 pm
I use Kjergit bow and accuracy seems good with 8wm
reticule isn't pinpoint but arrows seem to usually go into the middle even when it is slightly wider

Age 44 [29]
Experience 3645522
Level up at 4420577
Kills 5168
Death 1537
Gold 147632
Generation 5
Attribute Points 0
Skill Points 1
Weapon Proficiency Points 2
Convert 2 Skill Points into 1 Attribute point.   

Strength 12 
Agility 25 

One Handed 1 [1 WPF cost]   
Two Handed 1 [1 WPF cost]   
Polearm 1 [1 WPF cost]   
Archery 171 [12 WPF cost]
Crossbow 1 [1 WPF cost]   
Throwing 1 [1 WPF cost]   

Ironflesh 0 
Power Strike 0 
Shield 0 
Athletics 0 
Riding 7 
Horse Archery 4 
Power Draw 4 
Power Throw 0 
Weapon master * 8
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Cup1d on January 07, 2011, 09:21:12 pm
And what do you think about your efectiveness on plate users?

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Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Murchad on January 07, 2011, 09:39:41 pm
Cupid;
 very ineffective vs plate. my horse is only thing that keeps me alive vs them and usually if it is towards the end of the round i just do a suicide attack rather than try everyones patience by plinking away at them
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Salamol on January 08, 2011, 12:19:45 am
I don't find the Khergit bow too bad for accuracy, though I don't get all that many kills (though that may be because I've only been playing a few days)

I do get alot of hits though. I played for a couple of hours before the new patches came in, but didn't get to use the bow so I can't really compare how it was to how it is now.

My point setup for anyone interested:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Belatu on January 08, 2011, 01:00:16 am
minimun 0 !!!!!! lol.. and you are not mounted hahahaha

that is why I see trespassing arrows through the plate guys  ( I always thought that the plate guys scare me so much that I am mentally blocked to aim on them XD)

luckyly it is suppossed that there will not be so many plate guys around there.

Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Havoco on January 09, 2011, 05:04:17 am
Cupid that calculator is not accurate because it is not adding the pierce damage from the arrows
even though that would be probably only add 1 dmg lol
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Maira on January 09, 2011, 05:11:43 am
Just double the number, pierce dmg doesn't do more dmg, it just ignores 50% of the hit armor. But, bows only do cut now.
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Cup1d on January 09, 2011, 12:10:04 pm
Havoco\Maira

Khergit bow - 22 damage
Bodkin arrows - +4 damage

22+4 =26

As you can see, I use 26 in calculator.
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Deathwind on January 09, 2011, 12:24:25 pm
is there anyway to give bows half cut/half pierce damage?
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: bruce on January 09, 2011, 02:41:21 pm
Quote from: Cup1d on January 07, 2011, 09:21:12 pm
And what do you think about your efectiveness on plate users?

Except PD bonus is 14% per level of PD, while PS bonus is 8% per level of PS. And plate is not so common and will be even less common when wallets get a bit more drained.

Tbh: the only thing I dislike about current archery is how PD reduces wpf - think that should be removed postpatch, as it isn't needed anymore, and would benefit accuracy of all archers, but particularly ones which prefer damage over ability to run / kite / spam arrows.

Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Cup1d on January 09, 2011, 04:18:49 pm
Bruce, I dont know, have you got an archer char or not. Let's do some math.


So - Khergit bow dam = 22
Bodkin arrows = 4
22+4=26.

So 26 is raw damage without bonuses. Agree?

Then bonuses.

From PD
0,14x4=0,56

From wpf
0,15x1.71=0,2565

Overall bonus = 0,8165

Overall damage bonus in damage points
26x0,8165 = 21,229


Overall output damage (raw+bonus)
26+21.229=48

Simple math. Agree?

Then look at the calculator.

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Another illustration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmuXVRT60RI


You can receive this results this way too

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It just illustration - PD and PS both have equal bonus.

Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Lanic0r on January 10, 2011, 11:13:43 am
Yeay we need Pierce damage remaining you need  2 headshots and one body shot to kill a tank now [with strongbow and 154 wpf in archery]!
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: Cup1d on January 10, 2011, 12:50:22 pm
You are really lucky with headshotting Lanic0r.

This is my  expirience
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnFuVDst5n8
Title: Re: My views on archery.
Post by: zagibu on January 10, 2011, 04:46:29 pm
I've never seen anyone wearing anything that can reach 75 armor since patch. You need loomed top tier plate stuff to get to 75, even regular black armor + heavy gauntlets is only 72.