cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: MeatBunny on May 08, 2013, 01:38:07 am

Title: Jump Throwing
Post by: MeatBunny on May 08, 2013, 01:38:07 am
Did throwing really need to be nerfed? It already has expensive upkeep, low ammo, and horrible accuracy. I can't even throw over my teammates anymore, I always hit them in the back of the head. Someone tell the creators this since I have no pull... :oops:
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Digglez on May 08, 2013, 02:02:10 am
dont use WSE2, problem solved! or at least you used to be able to
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Prpavi on May 08, 2013, 02:06:08 am
Quote from: Digglez on May 08, 2013, 02:02:10 am
dont use WSE2, problem solved! or at least you used to be able to

abooz!! Ban he!
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: betard_lulz on May 08, 2013, 03:15:39 am
If I've learned anything from yurop(worst country in the world btw) it's that 2h must remain supreme.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Vengt037 on May 08, 2013, 07:23:59 am
I noticed that chucky stopped using throwing axes after jump throwing was taken away. He would jump before throwing. I think he did it so that he could aim down at you and, if he missed, he could recover his ammo easily.

Bring back jump throwing.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Rumblood on May 08, 2013, 08:38:30 am
Quote from: Vengt037 on May 08, 2013, 07:23:59 am
I noticed that chucky stopped using throwing axes after jump throwing was taken away. He would jump before throwing. I think he did it so that he could aim down at you and, if he missed, he could recover his ammo easily.

Bring back jump throwing.

Or maybe it was the fact that an axe got removed and replaced with 3 cut....
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Joker86 on May 08, 2013, 09:25:44 am
Might someone indeed bother explaining how exactly jump throwing worked?

I never played a thrower, but from what I know precision is/was highly reduced when jumping, so why jump if you have even less precision than you already had before?
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Molly on May 08, 2013, 10:39:11 am
Quote from: Joker86 on May 08, 2013, 09:25:44 am
Might someone indeed bother explaining how exactly jump throwing worked?

I never played a thrower, but from what I know precision is/was highly reduced when jumping, so why jump if you have even less precision than you already had before?
You could loop your throws over the melee fighting mob. Get closer w/o teamhitting all day...
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Thomek on May 08, 2013, 11:01:23 am
It was useful in many situations.. Often I used to jump while facing cav i.ex, or just pure reaction based getting away. Also when you wanted to lob something over a wall.

Now you simply cannot jump when the weapon is chambered and ready, which is annoying..
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Joker86 on May 08, 2013, 11:16:04 am
I am still of the opinion that jumping to throw is somewhat retarded (in this case I say realism grasps), but not being able to jump while having it chambered is stupid. Cancel the chamber would be the way I'd suggest. And buff throwing a bit, anyway. Higher precision, I would say.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Molly on May 08, 2013, 11:18:29 am
There is absolutely no need to buff throwing - it is fine FFS

Just give us jumping back!
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Tibe on May 08, 2013, 11:30:35 am
Seriuslly. Taking jumpthrowing away was a pure retard move. It was fun, useful and not really OP. Played throwing with an alt and I must say half of the fun from the throwingclass was taken away with removing jumpthrowing. Get it back!
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Boerenlater on May 08, 2013, 12:05:43 pm
As a former thrower (when jumpthrow was still there) I say bring it back.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Micah on May 08, 2013, 12:26:41 pm
I do approve for jumpthrowing should come back for a certain reason: it ruins game experiance without it. Jumping is a grade of freedom of movement in the game, and it feels very natural to be able to jump on throwing, in a way that it also feels realistic to do this. Now that its gone, it feels very restrictive and nerfed. This should be the opposite of the goal game gamedesign to make things feel bad.
On the other hand i do also not understand, why it was done, since it doesnt give a major edge on kiting afaik ... but maybe , someone could explain it for us, preferable the guy who invented it .. or anyone with propper insight. :)

Edit: just poped up in my head , that it might be the consequence for removing jumping on xbows and bows ,  so that it would be impossible for all ranged to jump shoot over walls .. well , that would propably make throwing superior in this case .. that point should certainly be discussed!
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Molly on May 08, 2013, 12:42:38 pm
Throwing never was and never will be superior to anything even with jumping back.

We're talking about throwing...
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Micah on May 08, 2013, 02:01:25 pm
Quote from: benkei on May 08, 2013, 12:42:38 pm
Throwing never was and never will be superior to anything even with jumping back.

We're talking about throwing...
i must disagree. There was times when throwing was massive OP on the battlefield if there was many ... and there was many , believe me :mrgreen:. The problem with throwing is, that its something between melee and ranged (in the core idea) that makes it hard to adjusted imo. its now ok, with its reduced impact and accuracy...
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Butan on May 08, 2013, 02:54:57 pm
What I dont understand about Jump Throwing being removed, is that it didnt nerf or buff their "kiting" potential; it just added a glitch when you try to jump & play at the same time  :rolleyes:

Then bows (and to a lesser extend, crossbows) I agree that jump-shooting a lot was too efficient, but jump throwing ? Try to do that more than once when you're in a "duel" with a meleist that isnt slower than you...


So +1 to bringing it back, OR trying to find something to buff them a bit more, because atm Throwing has only one advantage and a lot of disadvantages:


- best ranged rate of fire

- but very low ammo (balances out the rate of fire a lot)

- average damage

- very low accuracy

- if you want to take a lot of them for more ammo, its almost costier than bows, and a lot more than crossbows...



Throwing is really a "dedicated class" in the sense that you really have to be a fucking badass to win the game with a thrower.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: F i n on May 08, 2013, 03:05:01 pm
Quote from: Digglez on May 08, 2013, 02:02:10 am
dont use WSE2, problem solved! or at least you used to be able to

not working for eu1.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Miwiw on May 08, 2013, 03:05:58 pm
If youre a thrower and in a duel with a melee guy who is slower than you, movementspeed-wise, it is no problem to kill that guy without jumping. I often just take some steps backward and throw another hammer and kill the guy instead of wasting time in close melee vs a 2h that is fully armored, got 50% more hp than I do and just 2hits me.
Besides I'm playing with 15-24 build, as 5 PS is enough to cause enough dmg most times but for 8 WM I need for some good aim. ;)

Jump throwing was always great cause its very useful in bigger melee fights.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Joker86 on May 08, 2013, 03:23:18 pm
Quote from: Kulin_ban on May 08, 2013, 12:17:28 pm
Good enough for me
Also, jump throwing compilation (starts at 0:40)

I know this discussion is tiresome, but you are comparing apples with oranges here. One is throwing in sports, other is throwing in military history. The first video for example is to pass the ball to your teammate, not to throw something at an enemy to penetrate his armour. And all those things thrown are balls, which weight almost nothing. Javelins and throwing axes are meant to be heavy so they can inflict actual damage, and thus it would be much more difficult to throw them (effectively) mid air.

Never mind, all I want to say is that I think there was not much jumpthrowing on the battlefields, and thus it looks weird to me and actually out of place. But just to comfort you a bit: I also think that jumping in melee is retarded, as you didn't jump in melee either, apart for the last, long, half jumped step when charging an enemy with all force. And I doubt this has been done a lot, because you are very vulnerable at that moment. Braveheart shouldn't be the reference there.

I would like to see the jump only as means of passing obstacles. I would make players move slower in the air than on the ground, and have some kind of recovery stun after landing. Perhaps then players would keep their goddamn feet on the ground, like on real battles, because I am a small realism-fanboy, and I like the atmosphere of being in a real battle. People bunnyhopping all around kills my immersion and the atmosphere, so I dislike it. But this is my PERSONAL opinion, and I can understand very well if someone has a less serious approach to the game and thus doesn't mind the weirdness factor, and sees the fun factor much more important. That's why I don't really lobby against jumps in the game, but I do also not support them. I just want to say my opinion that I'd prefer seeing all battle jumps gone.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Tibe on May 08, 2013, 03:27:38 pm
Quote from: Micah on May 08, 2013, 02:01:25 pm
i must disagree. There was times when throwing was massive OP on the battlefield if there was many ... and there was many , believe me :mrgreen:......
Everything, besides melee is massive OP on the battlefield when its many. Massive ammounts of archers, cbows, cav.....etc
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: F i n on May 08, 2013, 03:29:42 pm
Quote from: Micah on May 08, 2013, 02:01:25 pm
i must disagree. There was times when throwing was massive OP on the battlefield if there was many ... and there was many , believe me :mrgreen:.

OP means, that most of the kills are made by throwers... and thats just not true. The average thrower never decided a round. There are some good players out there, really killing everything with their throwing weapons - but thats just the same for other classes.

I could say "There are just too many 2h players. and when 5 of them are attacking me at once - they are OP... " That would be the same bullshitty complaint.


Quote from: Micah on May 08, 2013, 02:01:25 pm
The problem with throwing is, that its something between melee and ranged (in the core idea) that makes it hard to adjusted imo. its now ok, with its reduced impact and accuracy...

Yes- Throwing is ok concerning damage, accuracy and cost i think (only talking about pierce weapons).

BUT the whole Axe-Line is completely useless when it comes to throwing - franciscas and throwing axes dont have enough damage, and the HTA - supposed to be at least equal to throwing spears IMO - are completely useless (low accuracy + low ammo + high weight = death to the old fin).

The major problem IMO is, that removing the jumpthrows (thats what this thread is about by the way) just made throwing it completely useless cus you cant help your teammates and its impossible to dodge and attack cav at the same time.  And since throwing is more of a melee-class than a ranged-class - i dont understand why a 2h is able to jump and swing with 2 hands, while a thrower is not just unable to jumpthrow but also gets glitches.


The only thing the devs have done really good in the past 6 months was annoying me.

And the reason for that isnt even the constant nerf  (I would accept that, if its justified), but the fact that this particular nerf was completely unjust AND not even explainable.

There was no reason for removing jumpthrowing. And there is no reason to Ignore all the ppl complaining about it.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on May 08, 2013, 03:29:56 pm
What happens when i can't jump throw....

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What i think i'm like when i throw something and finally hit an enemy

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Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: F i n on May 08, 2013, 03:35:57 pm
Quote from: Joker86 on May 08, 2013, 03:23:18 pm
I know this discussion is tiresome, but you are comparing apples with oranges here. One is throwing in sports, other is throwing in military history. The first video for example is to pass the ball to your teammate, not to throw something at an enemy to penetrate his armour. And all those things thrown are balls, which weight almost nothing. Javelins and throwing axes are meant to be heavy so they can inflict actual damage, and thus it would be much more difficult to throw them (effectively) mid air.

Oh please stop the realism-talk when theres 2h greatmaul plated guys out there that can jump and do 360° s while theyre overheading...

This is a fucking game - and as such it should be balanced or at least fun for every class available. That INCLUDES throwing. And if you dont accept that throwing is a class then see the throwingnerf through to the finish and just delete it instead of degrading it to a useless fringegroup.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Joker86 on May 08, 2013, 04:17:22 pm
Quote from: Finuad on May 08, 2013, 03:35:57 pm
Oh please stop the realism-talk when theres 2h greatmaul plated guys out there that can jump and do 360° s while theyre overheading...

You didn't read my second paragraph, did you?

Quote from: Finuad on May 08, 2013, 03:35:57 pm
This is a fucking game - and as such it should be balanced or at least fun for every class available. That INCLUDES throwing. And if you dont accept that throwing is a class then see the throwingnerf through to the finish and just delete it instead of degrading it to a useless fringegroup.

That is totally not what I wrote in my post!

I just didn't consider jumping a vital part of the thrower gameplay. If it poses a nerf for the class, buff it somewhere else. I understand why it has been taken out, but, as I said, I actually don't mind, because there is enough other stuff annoying me as well. So if you absolutely, positively need jumping (which I still don't believe, it was just a nice option, and now you have to change gameplay, like many other classes had to in the past) you can have it back. Just accept that I think it looks retarded if someone suddenly jumps up behind an enemy in front of me and hurls an axe into my face. It's like "WTF?".
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: cmp on May 08, 2013, 04:21:55 pm
Joker makes a very good point. Jump throwing re-added after the next server restart (tonight, if I don't forget).
EDIT: actually, gonna do it on the new server.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Molly on May 08, 2013, 04:33:04 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on May 08, 2013, 04:21:55 pm
Joker makes a very good point. Jump throwing re-added after the next server restart (tonight, if I don't forget).
Love you for this. Really do, this the best news I've had for months now. I am so excited :D

THANK YOU, MIGHTY OVERLORD!
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: betard_lulz on May 08, 2013, 04:42:18 pm
ALL HAIL BASED CMP
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Prpavi on May 08, 2013, 05:01:32 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on May 08, 2013, 04:21:55 pm
Joker makes a very good point. Jump throwing re-added after the next server restart (tonight, if I don't forget).

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Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Berserkadin on May 08, 2013, 05:19:40 pm
Might be CMP's brother again.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Micah on May 08, 2013, 05:25:20 pm
Quote from: TiberiusX on May 08, 2013, 03:27:38 pm
Everything, besides melee is massive OP on the battlefield when its many. Massive ammounts of archers, cbows, cav.....etc
I am sorry if i didnt make my point clear. I merely wanted to say ,  that there where times when pure trowing was very, very strong in cRPG a while ago. Ofc your argument is valid, that mass usage of one class makes it strong implicitely. But, there has to be a motivation for it to become used by many players at the same time , which is usually that it is strong.  :wink:
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Jarlek on May 08, 2013, 05:40:57 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on May 08, 2013, 04:21:55 pm
Joker makes a very good point. Jump throwing re-added after the next server restart (tonight, if I don't forget).
Guess I'm taking 3 PT instead of 3 PD on my char at 31 :)
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: betard_lulz on May 08, 2013, 05:42:05 pm
Quote from: Micah on May 08, 2013, 05:25:20 pm
I am sorry if i didnt make my point clear. I merely wanted to say ,  that there where times when pure trowing was very, very strong in cRPG a while ago. Ofc your argument is valid, that mass usage of one class makes it strong implicitely. But, there has to be a motivation for it to become used by many players at the same time , which is usually that it is strong.  :wink:
SO we can finally nerf 2h?  :o
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Joker86 on May 08, 2013, 06:02:11 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on May 08, 2013, 05:01:32 pm
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He is trying to troll me, as I said I am rather against jump throwing. But as I actually don't really care...  :P
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: cmp on May 08, 2013, 06:04:58 pm
Troll you? I would never. I just took the feedback you provided.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: F i n on May 08, 2013, 06:07:49 pm
Quote from: Joker86 on May 08, 2013, 04:17:22 pm
You didn't read my second paragraph, did you?

That is totally not what I wrote in my post!

I just didn't consider jumping a vital part of the thrower gameplay. If it poses a nerf for the class, buff it somewhere else. I understand why it has been taken out, but, as I said, I actually don't mind, because there is enough other stuff annoying me as well. So if you absolutely, positively need jumping (which I still don't believe, it was just a nice option, and now you have to change gameplay, like many other classes had to in the past) you can have it back. Just accept that I think it looks retarded if someone suddenly jumps up behind an enemy in front of me and hurls an axe into my face. It's like "WTF?".


i did read your sec. paragraph. just took the first one cus thats a often used point in that discussion. sorry if you feel misunderstood :). i love you for making cmp notice. youll have my eternal +1 bonus on the forums and a no-axetoface-pact ingame as a reward. hail joker!
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: F i n on May 08, 2013, 06:08:56 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on May 08, 2013, 06:04:58 pm
Troll you? I would never. I just took the feedback you provided.

after ignoring others feedback for months? :D


Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Joker86 on May 08, 2013, 06:18:02 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on May 08, 2013, 06:04:58 pm
Troll you? I would never. I just took the feedback you provided.

You did not. Otherwise the entire forum would have gone apeshit on me for removing jumps  :lol:
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on May 08, 2013, 07:18:32 pm
Quote from: Joker86 on May 08, 2013, 06:18:02 pm
You did not. Otherwise the entire forum would have gone apeshit on me for removing jumps  :lol:

Most of us tend to not read your long-winded boring posts
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Molly on May 08, 2013, 07:40:11 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on May 08, 2013, 06:04:58 pm
Troll you? I would never. I just took the feedback you provided.
As long as you're not trolling us by making promises you won't keep... D:
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Lannistark on May 08, 2013, 08:31:46 pm
Big clap for those 5 assholes who chose "I don't know what it is".
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Vengt037 on May 08, 2013, 09:25:16 pm
Quote from: benkei on May 08, 2013, 12:42:38 pm
Throwing never was and never will be superior to anything even with jumping back.

We're talking about throwing...

I think throwing is still massively OP if you use it right.

1. Throwing is the only ranged class that can feint
2. Throws can be held like xbows
3. Throws "reload" faster than the fastest bow
4. Throws cannot be blocked
5. Throwing weapons, depending on the weapon, can be used as melee weapons in a pinch.
6. Throwing weapons do stupid massive damage

Throwing is simply amazing. And it goes well w/ most hybrid builds.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: F i n on May 08, 2013, 09:27:06 pm
Quote from: Vengt037 on May 08, 2013, 09:25:16 pm


1. Throwing is the only ranged class that can feint      lol what
2. Throws can be held like xbows                                 lol what
3. Throws "reload" faster than the fastest bow            ok
4. Throws cannot be blocked                                        lol what
5. Throwing weapons, depending on the weapon, can be used as melee weapons in a pinch.  ok
6. Throwing weapons do stupid massive damage         lol what

Throwing is simply amazing. And it goes well w/ most hybrid builds.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Kafein on May 09, 2013, 01:27:59 am
The only real advantages throwing got is the very short time to get a throw ready (not the actual fire rate because honestly if you are throwing in quick succession you are not aiming), the ability to use throwing weapons with a shield and the melee mode. Some throwing weapons have very good melee modes, like the throwing lances. The principal drawback is the very low ammo.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Kampfkarotte on May 09, 2013, 01:38:55 am
Removing jumpthrowing doesnt make crpg more balanced or less, it's just a remove of fun. Im glad there are many ppl who voted for jumpthrowing, I hope this will cause consequences.  :)
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 09, 2013, 02:12:53 am
Quote from: Rumblood on May 08, 2013, 08:38:30 am
Or maybe it was the fact that an axe got removed and replaced with 3 cut....

I laughed when I saw that. Loose 44 cut, gain 9 cut cut deficit = 35... Dv math fail? I know that pt adds some strange to to the math but this just seems silly.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Micah on May 09, 2013, 02:23:34 am
As far as i understood it, we are talking about getting jump throwing back, which would not give throwing a huge edge over what it is now. All other points about throwing are pretty unnessecary here, since the jumping would not affect these.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Butan on May 09, 2013, 02:01:39 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 09, 2013, 01:27:59 am
The only real advantages throwing got is the very short time to get a throw ready (not the actual fire rate because honestly if you are throwing in quick succession you are not aiming), the ability to use throwing weapons with a shield and the melee mode. Some throwing weapons have very good melee modes, like the throwing lances. The principal drawback is the very low ammo.


I will add another problem of throwers.
Like archers, they have to decide what to do about their ranged damage (PT/PD) and their melee damage (PS).


There is two end of the spectrum:

- prioritize PT over PS, can do high damage at range but very low to inexistant in melee. Those guys chose the throwing weapons as their primary.

- prioritize PS over PT, can do decent damage at range, and do great in melee. Those guys chose the throwing weapons as their secondary/accessory.



Those that uses throwing weapons as their accessory just have the high upkeep problem, for a low to average efficiency.

But the "real" throwers, those that bet their life on it, have a big problem: their low ammo forces them to be "accurate", and the natural low accuracy of throwing weapons forces them to be on the frontline to have a good enough aim; but then its still very easy to miss and you get entangled in melee very fast if you dont have a high battle awareness/ATH (and god knows ranged have a kind of tunnel vision) since you're very close to the hot spot. Then with your low PS, if you cant run / cant throw, you're dead meat if you're not a very good blocker...

Life is hard for real throwers  :P
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Mendro on May 11, 2013, 12:47:11 am
Quote from: Butan on May 09, 2013, 02:01:39 pm
Life is hard for real throwers  :P

That's why we like it  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: MeatBunny on May 22, 2013, 02:23:40 am
Life is hard, but so are we.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Vengt037 on May 22, 2013, 04:13:13 am
I know what's his face said that he restored jump throwing, but it doesn't seem to be fully "back" yet. Like, the animation is all weird and choppy. Not like it used to be.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Maciver on May 22, 2013, 03:59:07 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on May 08, 2013, 04:21:55 pm
Joker makes a very good point. Jump throwing re-added after the next server restart (tonight, if I don't forget).
EDIT: actually, gonna do it on the new server.

It seems to be enabled on NA, but its bugged.  Not sure if you guys are aware of this or not.  When you jump with your throw ready the player model hitches badly.  So it seems to be turned on, but not really usable at the moment. 

Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 22, 2013, 04:32:50 pm
Quote from: Kulin_ban on May 08, 2013, 12:17:28 pm

Good enough for me


Also, jump throwing compilation (starts at 0:40)

How much does a baseball or handball weigh?  I've thrown throwing axes before and it's nothing like throwing a baseball (which I've done my whole life).  The throwing axes that I was using had to have weighed at least 3 lbs each.   Also, jumping and throwing a baseball takes a lot of arm strength to do, it's certainly not easy (and that's with a baseball, which doesn't weigh hardly anything).  You'd have a very hard time jumping and throwing an axe unless you were running forward when you did it, and had started your throwing motion before you jumped into the air. 

I think jump throwing and shooting should stay out of the game (and possibly remove jump swinging on melee weapons, or make them much weaker since you don't have your body anchored to the ground to help put your momentum into the swing).  But you should 100% be able to jump with a weapon chambered (if possible) just don't let them throw.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Mendro on May 22, 2013, 08:57:57 pm
Jump throwing work on eu1 now.
Title: Re: Jump Throwing
Post by: Rainbow on May 23, 2013, 01:45:48 pm
#1 na thrower