Author Topic: Archery meta, your opinions are needed  (Read 2752 times)

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Offline Algarn

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 01:20:13 pm »
+1
Well, you understood the idea Huscarlton. These numbers can't be applied to be honest, since as you said, they're way too high (maybe by removing two damages it would be alright). Basically, it would be still quite nice to have more damage, instead of accuracy. The values for missile speed I wrote are lower than the current ones, so, I doubt there would be any problem about it.

Gravoth, you play basically a footman with a bow, I play an archer. Shooting people with a bow is pointless with 6PD, it's like throwing daggers to a tincan. You basically are a low tier melee player with such a build, only able to have an advantage on low armored players, or peasants. For my part, I try to use my melee weapon with my OP 32 wpf and 5 PS to stay alive, and use my bow as my main weapon, like any archer would do. I tried 27/18 on STF, I was surprisingly less accurate than on my main with 10PD, so, hybriding your archer will cost you the power you can get on the weapon you should be using mainly, your bow.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 01:23:15 pm by Algarn »

Offline Mr.K.

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2014, 01:23:17 pm »
+1
And all ranged can hybrid easily into melee now, which is pretty big imo. With all the arrows you get you can easily get 10 or 20 points not even going close to melee, and then you can just drop the bow and fight melee with your team if needed.

Are you sure about that? Right now it seems like the only archer builds that do any damage and have any accuracy are 9PD and 10PD builds. Those builds don't allow me to have any wpf at all in melee, nor do I have any speed to run either, so I have to fight. I made a mistake of going 4 athletics and 0PS instead of two and two and it's really bad atm, especially on those closed shitmaps that we have on EU1 most of the time. Imo a good balance would be that high PD archers can't really fight back (which is the case now), but low PD archers could. Which would be true right now if 6PD actually did any damage.

However accuracy is too high. I'm a below average aim and sometimes can get valour many times in a row. The damage is fine with longbow though. Not over the top, but not too low either I'd say. Imo archery should be more about random hits in a blob of enemies and there's no reason to have too high damage sniper classes. The number of xbow scum on EU1 is prolly an indication that right now it's too strong as their natural enemies (archers, cav, horse archers) were nerfed/removed.

1) Reduce xbow reload speed
2) Reduce bow accuracy and make lower PD builds more viable
3) Bring speed bonus back to throwing and give them bigger bonuses against cavalry

Xbow would be the sniper class with melee abilities. Archery would be a crowd control class that stops the melee blobs from just running around mindlessly. Throwing would be the anti-cavalry class and easy to hybrid.

So I do agree with Algarn that archery needs to be changed, but damage increases are most likely a bad idea even if the accuracy goes down. But something needs to be done to change the current 10PD/9PD only meta which is boring. One thing that comes to mind is increasing Longbow/Rusbow PD requirement. Make it something like 8 or even 9. Then on the other hand drop the requirements for the lower tier bows to something like two, but increase the damage. That would allow them to deal decent damage with 5-6PD with high accuracy, but if you go above 6PD you gain no additional damage. Players could choose to hybrid (18/27 with melee skills), high accuracy (18/33 with high wpf) or high damage (30/21 with long bow). It would need a lot of work to balance it out though as wpf increases the damage as well.

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2014, 02:06:09 pm »
+1
Im not too picky on my accuracy, i hit enough to make it worth while, maybe its not hitting too hard, but i am standing far away from fighting, only thing i have to worry about is cav and other ranged which can both be shut out easily. An archer thats also viable as melee is much more fun and varied gameplay imo, so i think archery is good as it is. A pure archer still does more damage and is more accurate, they shouldnt be killing machines though which is why i like them as they are now. Good archers score about the same as good infantry, slightly less probably but they are also not engaging in massive melee fights.
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Offline jtobiasm

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2014, 05:54:33 pm »
0
I don't want to be able to hybrid into ranged, I want my swings to kill people.

Stop being shit then

Offline Molly

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2014, 06:08:52 pm »
+1
[...] they shouldnt be killing machines though which is why i like them as they are now. Good archers score about the same as good infantry, slightly less probably but they are also not engaging in massive melee fights.
QFT.
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Offline jtobiasm

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2014, 06:11:58 pm »
+1
Good archers score about the same as good infantry, slightly less probably but they are also not engaging in massive melee fights.

Score doesn't make you a good archer, it's very very easy to top eu1 if you just wanted to farm points/

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2014, 06:23:08 pm »
0
Score doesn't make you a good archer, it's very very easy to top eu1 if you just wanted to farm points/

Score shows that you are doing something, lots of score means you are doing good.
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Offline rufio

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2014, 06:34:05 pm »
0
whole server is full of ranged, fuck this game
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Offline jtobiasm

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2014, 06:49:09 pm »
+2
Score shows that you are doing something, lots of score means you are doing good.
]

I'd rather have an archer on my team shooting the other teams best players and get 40 points than an archer who's shooting at anyone and getting 80.


Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2014, 10:52:17 pm »
0
]

I'd rather have an archer on my team shooting the other teams best players and get 40 points than an archer who's shooting at anyone and getting 80.

To me it doesnt matter, dishing twice the damage out helps a lot more, means everyone dies quicker. I dont care about the best team players when they dont have a team left. Same as infantry, i dont care too much what im killing, if the enemy count is dropping then my team is at an advantage.
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Offline Algarn

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2014, 11:09:21 pm »
+2
To me it doesnt matter, dishing twice the damage out helps a lot more, means everyone dies quicker. I dont care about the best team players when they dont have a team left. Same as infantry, i dont care too much what im killing, if the enemy count is dropping then my team is at an advantage.

It's different to shoot 3 level 25 new players and shooting Saxon/Chase/Atze/Lezard/ ... in the head, trust me. Some kills don't matter. That time I made 27/3, I realised it was in fact a massive bunch of peasants/bad archers/ unaware infantrymen there. If I did the same while having a shit load of good players killed, I would have that feeling that I've actually helped the team rather than stole the valour.

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2014, 01:30:07 am »
0
It's different to shoot 3 level 25 new players and shooting Saxon/Chase/Atze/Lezard/ ... in the head, trust me. Some kills don't matter. That time I made 27/3, I realised it was in fact a massive bunch of peasants/bad archers/ unaware infantrymen there. If I did the same while having a shit load of good players killed, I would have that feeling that I've actually helped the team rather than stole the valour.

Yes but then good players move a lot more than lowbies, they tank more and are probably positioned better. Not shooting anything waiting for good players to pop up is a waste, even if they pop up they might just never get hit. I'd rather focus on hitting multiple targets switching between and finding those that are easy hits. Sure you would chose to headshot a good player over 3 peasants, but its never that simple on the server, there's many factors. Generally just having high score is helping out the team more, if you get lucky and manage to kill a good player then thats great but if you are spending 3 minutes of every round scouting for him and barely shooting other things then its not worth it at all.
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Offline Rico

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2014, 04:02:42 am »
0
The point of quiver size is that you should not have enough to survive a whole round shooting at things.
The point of quiver weight is that you shouldn't be able to run away or fight back in melee.
The point of bow damage reduction is that you shouldn't be killing anyone over the distance.
The point of projectile stun remove is that you shouldn't be able assist your melee allies.
The point of exponential wpf penalties from armor as soon as its weight exceeds 6 is that you either skill iron flesh at the opportunity cost of skilling something decent, or that you wear paper armor.
The point of the slot system is that you can only use tiny melee weapons which get stunned every second swing.
The point of power draw is that you have an additional skill to take care of, so your effective level gets reduced.
The point of horse archery nerfs is that you shouldn't try to seek compensation for the other nerfs by spawning a horse.

Sounds fair :lol:
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Offline jtobiasm

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2014, 05:49:39 am »
0
Yes but then good players move a lot more than lowbies, they tank more and are probably positioned better.
I'm sure a good archer knows well enough to get himself into a good enough position to be able to kill a guy he's targeting. Isn't positioning and game sense what makes a decent archer, all you need after that is aim and that comes with practise.

Offline Huscarlton_Banks

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Re: Archery meta, your opinions are needed
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2014, 06:43:12 am »
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@Algarn

Some damage increase on bows is necessary (and I think Tydeus already posted something about a buff to some) to make bodkin arrows actually deal more damage than tatar arrows and to address their low effectiveness because of soak for lower PD builds, but I doubt we'll see the return of far range 6 PD archery dealing more damage than 10 PT close-range jarids/medium range throwing lances.

Given percentage increases in raw damage yield greater percentage increases in effective damage because of the way soak works, e.g. your longbow change would increase effective damage on 55+ armor by over 30%, despite being a ~22% increase in raw damage for +3 longbows.

It wouldn't be very fun getting randomly oneshotted with the heaviest helmet + ~65-70 hp, having all unarmored horses die in 2 body shots maximum (or one headshot), or having archers with tatar arrows deal more damage to shields than non-bonus vs. shield melee weapons.

One thing that puzzles me: Wouldn't something with vastly higher effective damage and random spread be better for killing random low-medium armor players that grouped up, instead of targeting specific players?




@Panuru

I'm pretty sure most of your post was just for poking fun at the current state of things, but:

Drop your bow to run/melee.

9/10 PD kills just fine, bows besides Short/Nomad/Tatar will probably get some damage added to them. A small increase in effectiveness for ranged in general may be possible once a rounding issue is fixed, currently the damage scripts just floors any float values, so an extra 1-3 effective damage is subtracted for some attacks depending on how many times the damage is converted to/from floating point for calculations. This is the most noticeable on ranged attacks with low effective damage (HA).

Projectile stuns still exist, flinching to interrupt swings/blocks is easy, it's just the flailing arms and stumbling backwards flinch that's more difficult to do. Locking people in place with piddly squat damage was removed though, but that was a feature that didn't make all that much sense in retrospect anyway.

Armor affects archery/throwing much less now even with the exponential penalties (unless you use crazy high >220 WPF builds with less than 4 PD/PT and full plate or something).

Less melee weapon choice is pretty much a given as a tradeoff. Falchion, Knobbed Mace, and Fighting Pick are fairly decent at resisting stuns for 0s. There are plenty of decently heavy 1s weapons.

All ranged/cavalry classes require some investment that reduces "effective level" vs. a pure melee player. Archery/Throwing get the benefit of PD/PT increasing accuracy. Archery gets the most benefit since the increase in WPF penalty gets smaller as you get closer to 10 PD, while throwing's penalty remains static for each additional PT point.

Crossbows rely exclusively on WPF which has the advantage of freeing up some skill points, but they have slow firing rates and slower missile speeds than bows, which makes accuracy more important. The WPF requirement for crossbows to become fully accurate is much higher than it is for bows right now though, and +3 arbalests with 186 effective WPF are still less accurate than a +3 Longbow with 10 PD, <30 effective WPF.

(click to show/hide)

HA is kind of a flawed class in general for game modes like battle since there's no respawning, and the distribution of ranged/cavalry players tends to be lopsided fairly often between teams. I think San said that he removed the 15 damage cap for the next patch though, so they'll be able to harass cloth armored players or medium armored players with headshots pretty easily.