Archery overhaul

[Joseph Porta]

an arrow is supposed to hurt, not tickle you to death.

Hello and welcome to my archery overhaul.

The main focus of my changes to archery will be on reducing the spam it currently is.

I think archery at the moment is far too arcadey to fit in with the other mechanics, I think that with the changes I will suggest it will become more realistic and possibly more punchy. Atleast more punchy then the current style of shooting dozens of weak arrows around.

I did integrate others ideas into my proposal, I will credit them as best as I can but I am not going to search the entire forum for a quote.

Allright, the first thing that I think needs to change is the amount of arrows archers can spam around, it just feels like throwing snowballs around in the hope of possibly hitting some sort kung-fu-insta-KO weakspot.

Now, this could come in the form of a simple quiver size reduction, but I think carrying two quivers is gay as fuck, so I am proposing a slight quiver increase, something around an increase of 3 sounds good to me. But wait, don't you archers get excited now! Power draw >4 bows will be 3 slots! Power draw 3 and below will be 2 slots.

Stole the three slot idea from Konrax: http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/ideas-for-fixing-range/

Now, you might think this will end up in major tatar spam, as if that isnt the case atm, but I also suggest that bows will have arrow limitations. Say the tatar bow can not use the top tier arrows, bodkin & (barbed?). The dev team can balance this out theirselves, I just think tatar bows shouldnt have the armor piercing abilities they currently have.

Now this will cause some havoc here and there, but wait, I think this is the perfect way to make archers more realistic and more rewarding. This will hapoen in the form of a MAJOR FUCKING damage increase, and by major I mean fucking rediculous wtf is this for shit damage increase. But balanced, ofcourse, and not TOO much.

Also, bodkins will be 0 slot and the quiver will only hold 5 arrows.

I know, more lol wtf is this. But listen, this is to simulate plate armor. Bows, including the longbow, will only have cut damage.

Wy do I think this will work? Because archers will have a reduced quiver, this means they wont just spam shields with their arrows, this is because it is far more likely for them to run out of arrows, they will be forced to think about how much arrows they have left and how they want to use them, so shooting shields is just a waste. They will FINALLY have to think before shooting.

Bodkins will be limited, you will only have a few of them - again, more thinking before you act and pew pew.

And ofcourse missile speed eduction for all lower tier bows, again the arcade shit is too gay.

I would make a tl;dr, but I cant be arsed to tap more.

Ps: also weight should cause more of a penalty to wpf.

[Joseph Porta]

An example of gear load out with both foot archers and HA in mind.


Foot archer, Rus or Longbow.

Code: [Select]

Longbow/Rusbow - 3 slots
Tatar arrows(+3, ammo 24) - 1 slot
Melee weapon - 0 slot
Bag of bodkins(+3, ammo 8) - 0 slot (for each rank the bow will get one extra arrow)

Total ammo: 32 arrows

All four equipment slots are in use.

Horse archer. (Will take the 2 slot bow, because of more total ammo.)

Code: [Select]

Tatar bow - 2 slots
Barbed Arrows (x2)(+3, ammo 29(x2)) - 2 slots
Melee weapon - 0 slot

Total ammo - 58


All four equipment slots are in use.

As you can see the foot archer will still have 32 arrows in total - this is MORE THEN ENOUGH.

The HA will still have either 58 or 66 arrows, MORE then enough. Imo this could be even less, around 45/50 would be better, its still a hell of alot of arrows.

if HA's want to have more arrows over effective arrows they take the Tatar bow, if they want damage and armor piercing they can take the Horn bow - as it allows for bodkins to be used.

The horn bow however will be 3 slots - read OP.

Horn bow HA (HA with armor piercing capabilities)

Code: [Select]

Horn Bow - 3 slots
Tatar arrows/Barbed arrows (+3, ammo 24/27) - 1 slot
Melee weapon - 0 slot
Bag of bodkins(+3, ammo 8) - 0 slot

Total ammo - (tatarbodkin 32) or (barbedbodkin 35)



[San]

What damages are you thinking of?

[Joseph Porta]

What damages are you thinking of?

To be honest I am kind of in the dark on this one, as I dont know exactly what a damage increase will actually cause in practice.

Though a damage increase of around 5-10% could work. Possibly even more 10 - 20%.

It is however VERY important to keep in mind that bodkins will be situational and that the majority of arrows will be cut damage. Thus heavy armor will infact negate most of the damage, and light armor will feel the damage increase the most.

A change like this ( increased cut damage) will call for a buff to light horses, though. It is for me really difficult to oversee, I can to a certain extent, what the exact effects will be.

[Switchtense]

The damage increase would have to be immense.
It happens quite often that I shoot someone (Bodkins, MW Rus and 6PD, 170wpf) and he does not die, even after the 4th arrow.

If you get only 10 arrows in total (I have 30 now) you would have to be able to kill everything in 2 shots or less. Otherwise it renders archery useless since nobody really bothers protecting archers from melee.

[Joseph Porta]

Have you read my 2nd post, Switch?

I actually used the original quiver sizes, exept for the bodkins. And changed the bow slot requirements.

Keep in mind that suggestions will never be perfect in the first try, they need some finetuning.

[Switchtense]

Yes. You said ~10% up to 20%.

I do not know how that increase would show ingame. That is why I put an emphasis on how much more damage they would have to deal


But still, as I already mentioned, people will complain about archery even more. Because they don't care how much damage the arrows do that fly into the middle of nowhere.

But when they get hit (and they WILL get hit, even with 5 arrows per quiver) then they will whine about being killed by one arrow. Or if not dead then they will whine about having lost 80% of hp to one arrow.


Forcing people to use cut arrows would be the same for archery as right now. You get many arrows (even more than currently with bodkins) and due to the damage buff the damage of cut arrows would be effectively the same as with bodkins now. (Or maybe even more)

[Joseph Porta]

You should really re-read the amount of arrows a quiver holds, the 10-20% is my third post..

This is the post I was talking about, 10 arrows, even 20, per quiver is far too less.

Allthough I do think that lower tier arrows, those that are combined with lower tier bows(2 slots) could have their quiver size reduced.

An example of gear load out with both foot archers and HA in mind.


Foot archer, Rus or Longbow.

Code: [Select]

Longbow/Rusbow - 3 slots
Tatar arrows(+3, ammo 24) - 1 slot
Melee weapon - 0 slot
Bag of bodkins(+3, ammo 8) - 0 slot (for each rank the bow will get one extra arrow)

Total ammo: 32 arrows

All four equipment slots are in use.

Horse archer. (Will take the 2 slot bow, because of more total ammo.)

Code: [Select]

Tatar bow - 2 slots
Barbed Arrows (x2)(+3, ammo 27(x2)) - 2 slots
Melee weapon - 0 slot

Total ammo - 54


All four equipment slots are in use.

As you can see the foot archer will still have 32 arrows in total - this is MORE THEN ENOUGH.

The HA will still have either 54 or 66 arrows, MORE then enough. Imo this could be even less, around 45/50 would be better, its still a hell of alot of arrows.

if HA's want to have more arrows over effective arrows they take the Tatar bow, if they want damage and armor piercing they can take the Horn bow - as it allows for bodkins to be used.

The horn bow however will be 3 slots - read OP.

Horn bow HA (HA with armor piercing capabilities)

Code: [Select]

Horn Bow - 3 slots
Tatar arrows/Barbed arrows (+3, ammo 24/27) - 1 slot
Melee weapon - 0 slot
Bag of bodkins(+3, ammo 8) - 0 slot

Total ammo - (tatarbodkin 32) or (barbedbodkin 35)



[Joseph Porta]

Also keep in mind that 2 slot bows can only use arrows up to Barbed, sure they do infact have more arrows but they will be significantly weaker.

Strong arrows and armor piercing will be strictly for foot archers, or HA's will have to prioritize damage over quiver size.

[Switchtense]

Bag of bodkins(+3, ammo 8)

So a MW Bodkin quiver holds 8 arrows. I assume a +0 quiver holds 5 arrows.

So you pack 2 Bodkins, that is 10 arrows.

[Joseph Porta]

So a MW Bodkin quiver holds 8 arrows. I assume a +0 quiver holds 5 arrows.

So you pack 2 Bodkins, that is 10 arrows.

Wy in the world would you pack 2 bodkins?

The point is to resemble plate armor better, you see a heavy armor wearer and you switch to your bodkins.

Otherwise you will mostly shoot cut arrows, these will rceive a large buff. Bodkins dont need a buff - they are strong enough and will more or less stay the same.

[Switchtense]

Wy in the world would you pack 2 bodkins?

The point is to resemble plate armor better, you see a heavy armor wearer and you switch to your bodkins.

Otherwise you will mostly shoot cut arrows, these will rceive a large buff. Bodkins dont need a buff - they are strong enough and will more or less stay the same.

So shooting with Bodkins will be the same as now?

Have you not read my post now? Sometimes I need like 4 arrows for someone in med gear. For a tincan like 6 arrows.

And I am supposed to have even less of that ammo that is supposed to do the most damage against armour?

So basically you want to be unharmed by archers if you wear med gear or heavier.

[Joseph Porta]

So shooting with Bodkins will be the same as now?

Have you not read my post now? Sometimes I need like 4 arrows for someone in med gear. For a tincan like 6 arrows.

And I am supposed to have even less of that ammo that is supposed to do the most damage against armour?

So basically you want to be unharmed by archers if you wear med gear or heavier.

Not at all.

Bodkins will be situational and only useable for targets with a shitload of armor. Otherwise barbed and tatar arrows will do the job. The current system where bodkins are practicly the only arrows that are effective is a broken system.

Arrows will have their place in this system, bodkins for plate crutchers, tatars for medium to medheavy armors, barbed for medium/light armors.

Heavy armor will finally have more of a meaning vs archers, instead of being entirely absolete as it is now.

[Joseph Porta]

Only damage values for proposed changes - experimental stats


Top tier bows ( 3 slots) - allowed to fire bodkins & Tatars

Code: [Select]

Long bow

Speed:40
Thrust:34 cut
Missile speed:40
Accuracy:104

Rus bow

Speed:41
Thrust:30 cut
Missile speed:41
Accuracy:103

Yumi

Speed:38
Thrust:29 cut
Missile speed:38
Accuracy:103

Horn bow

Speed:44
Thrust:28 cut
Missile speed:44
Accuracy:101

Bow

Who, besides me, uses this?


Possible damage increase stats for the top tier bows. This is something I made up from the top of my head.

The damage increase will be mainly coming from the bows themselves, thus making bodkins more effective aswell. A slight increase on the bodkins can work.

Lower tier bows will get a combination of damage increase and missile speed decrease, though the damage increase will be far more significant.

God, balancing shit is hard, so much things to think of.

Possible arrow stats.

Code: [Select]

Bodkins

Length:93
Thrust:4 pierce (+2, double it is now)
Ammo:5 (-10)


Tatar

Length:89
Thrust:13 cut (+3)
Ammo:18

Barbed

Length:90
Thrust:10 cut (+3)
Ammo: 20 (-2)

Arrows

Length:88
Thrust:7 cut (+2)
Ammo:20



[Switchtense]

Would have to test how that damage exactly turns out to be ingame.

Guess that is up to the testers to do.

All in all a good idea, but some miscalculated change, something you didn't think of and archery is ruined.

So I guess before implementing this has to be tested excessively.


Still I think to not render Archers useless the damage Bodkins do against Tincans has to be very high. Two shotting a tincan no matter what would have to be the case really.
Because nobody gives a shit about tactics, so nobody is defending the archers from tincans. If they need 4 arrows to kill a tincan, while only having 5 bodkins, they will die for sure. (unless its someone like bagge or steevee)

Very delicate changes in general, but once all problems are sorted this could make archery more interesting for people dedicated to either learn to get good at it, or who already are good at it.