Author Topic: Rethinking Halfswording  (Read 1921 times)

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Offline Kaoklai

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Rethinking Halfswording
« on: August 22, 2011, 02:41:40 am »
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Rethinking halfswording

As it stands in cRPG halfswording is underused, underpowered, and altogether underwhelming.  You exchange range on the thrust for power, lose both power and range on swings, and lose the overhead completely.  Secondly, it uses an entirely different wpf than in primary mode, discouraging use amongst the vast majority of people who actually carry two-handers –namely people who invest in two hander proficiency.  As it stands, the only reason to halfsword is to perhaps stop a horse. 

That's what I see wrong with halfswording.  I’d like to see if other players agree or disagree with this assessment of its general uselessness more than the response to what I will propose below.  With that said, the following are some (probably poorly thought out) ideas to improve halfswording.  As a disclaimer, I am a polearmer and am not arguing for the improvement of any equipment I use.

1.   Use two hand wpf while halfswording
Encourage use amongst the principle owners of weapons that can be halfsworded; remove the silliness of using polearm wpf for something that is not a polearm

2.   Have both right and left swings use a halfswording animation while in that mode (decreased range and damage)
Ensure that the benefits are mitigated by certain disadvantages; make halfswording only beneficial situationally

3.   Keep the same halfswording thrust (decreased range, increased damage)
Same reasoning

4.   Use Mordhau, striking with the pommel while holding the blade, as the halfswording overhead (greatly decreased damage but using blunt damage type, decreased range).
No overhead makes the weapon feel extremely awkward; makes halfswording versatile at a price
Picture of Mordhau from the Wallerstein fechtbuch
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5.   Remove horse stop stab
It’s for polearms and halfswording shouldn’t turn your weapon into one.  Halfswording was also not used against horses in reality; though that’s a lesser argument, I feel that a degree of realism should be applied where possible. 


Halfswording was meant for close infighting where full swings were not possible or advantageous and against heavily armored opponents where the added stability of a hand gripping the blade would allow you to more easily penetrate armor (or bash him with the pommel).  While historical veracity is not always the best guide for game design in terms of fun or balance, I believe the enumerated changes could enhance both.  You would lose the deceptive and smooth two-hander animation, a large amount of range (on all attacks), and damage on anything besides thrust.  You would gain the much more obvious but “crisper” (for lack of a better word) animation of the hands-apart grip, varied damage types (swing-cut, overhead-blunt, thrust-pierce), and a larger “sweet-spot” relative to the striking surface beyond the leading hand (though not to the entire weapon). 




Some separate musings about the system I’ve proposed that I’m not sold on.

Use the ability to halfsword to differentiate between similar weapons (e.g. Great Sword can halfsword while Heavy Great Sword can’t).  Maybe increase the price of the one that can.

Make one of an exceedingly similar pair of two-handers halfsword exclusively.

Introduce a couple new two-handers that halfsword exclusively, while removing halfswording from all or most of the old ones.

Remove halfswording from a bunch of weapons that currently have it (Sword of War, Heavy Great Sword, etc.). 

Give Mordhau knockdown.  Mordhau would already hugely decreases range and damage with the only benefit of blunt damage-type.  Possibly overpowered, though. 

The Mordhau animation might be very difficult (maybe even impossible) to make.  If so, replace with a regular overhead or a shortened halfsworded overhead (not sure how realistic this is). 

Ignore everything I wrote and remove halfswording as a separate mode and just have some more swords use the halfswording thrust animation normally, like the Langes Messer and Flamberge do. 

Anyway, just some thoughts.  I’d love to hear yours on the subject.

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Offline Cyclopsided

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2011, 04:00:29 am »
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Just saying, we can't do pretty much any of your suggestions do to game limitations.
With WSE, well, that is different.

As it is, halfswording in this game is just switching your sword to be used as a pole arm. That is it. We can't do any of that fancy stuff as is.
Also, I have declared myself #1 NA hybrid thrower
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Offline Kaoklai

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 04:33:32 am »
-6
Would you dis/agree that halfswording as it stands is fairly unsatisfying to use and mostly useless practically?  Even though a large part of the text is exploring an alternative, I'm as interested in how halfswording is regarded now.

And since you seem to be in the know, would implementing a simple polearm overhead and/or halfsworded right swing, changing wpf back to two-handers, or removing horse-stop be possible under the current system?
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Offline Nehvar

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2011, 05:23:47 am »
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Is it possible to half-sword and still use the WPF for two handed weapons?  Does the flamberge use polearm skill?
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Offline Kaoklai

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 05:27:30 am »
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Is it possible to half-sword and still use the WPF for two handed weapons?  Does the flamberge use polearm skill?

All two-handers in halfsword mode use polearm wpf.  Flamberge uses two-hander wpf only, it just uses the halfsword animation for thrust.
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 05:38:26 am »
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half swording sucks because cut damage is overpowered vs armored tin cunts

Offline Nehvar

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 08:58:57 am »
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All two-handers in halfsword mode use polearm wpf.  Flamberge uses two-hander wpf only, it just uses the halfsword animation for thrust.

It uses the polearm animations for left-to-right and overhead too.  Right-to-left uses two-hander animations however (same as half-swording).

Anyway, since the flamberge can use polearm animations with two-hander WPF, why can't other two-handers do the same in half-sword mode?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 09:00:24 am by Nehvar »
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Offline Cyclopsided

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2011, 10:13:10 am »
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Anyway, since the flamberge can use polearm animations with two-hander WPF, why can't other two-handers do the same in half-sword mode?
That is different. The flamberge is classified as a 2h (Using 2h wpf) but the devs have changed it's animations to be that of a pole arm.
Halfswording is ~changing the weapon mode~ into a pole arm. hence the issue. Whether or not you could switch weapon mode from 2h --> 2h with halfsword animation; I have no idea.

Would you dis/agree that halfswording as it stands is fairly unsatisfying to use and mostly useless practically?  Even though a large part of the text is exploring an alternative, I'm as interested in how halfswording is regarded now.

And since you seem to be in the know, would implementing a simple polearm overhead and/or halfsworded right swing, changing wpf back to two-handers, or removing horse-stop be possible under the current system?
I would say halfswording is underwhelming. Having the high pierce damage available to you as a 2h user, it is really nice though. It is worth putting some pole WPF as a 2h because of it, at least 50 which i a very small investment.

I have a pretty reasonable understanding of the constraints regarding what they can't do, But I would definitely not say I am in the know.
A dev could answer a lot of these questions if they wanted.
Also, I have declared myself #1 NA hybrid thrower
Formerly known as Marathon.
As an NA admin, I am the most laid back and concerned with the ~fun of the game~ above all other factors. I've also been super inactive since Summer 2012. University takes most of my time, but I still find some time to play when i can.

Offline Lezard

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2011, 04:15:17 pm »
+2
+1 to OP. I always wanted to integrate halfswording into my style of play, but it's just useless at the moment. I'd rather use the 2h thrust against horses (for increased range). And the short range combined with speed nerf that comes with halfswording, makes it a bad choice even vs tincans imo (again, I'd rather use the raw power and range of my 2h). Split WPF doesn't make it better.

It needs to be improved somehow.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 07:27:28 pm by Lezard »

Offline Paul

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2011, 07:51:04 pm »
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I have a 2h/pole hybrid for the sole reason of using a 2handed sword in both modes and it's fun.

Offline Paul

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2011, 08:56:48 pm »
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yes

Offline Lezard

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2011, 10:19:36 am »
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I have a 2h/pole hybrid for the sole reason of using a 2handed sword in both modes and it's fun.

When can we expect this buff you speak of!?

Offline a_bear_irl

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2011, 11:19:13 am »
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i agree with pretty much everything you said, i've only seen one dude ever halfswording on battle and he was a stabbing/stunlock gimmick.

ideally for me it'd be, cut through peasants in regular 2h mode and if you run into a guy in heavy armor and want to duel, switch to halfsword. i don't think the overhand thing could be done right now, though obviously i don't know for usre
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Offline Son Of Odin

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Re: Rethinking Halfswording
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2011, 07:34:22 am »
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Just a thought... I want secondary mode for flamberge! It is so powerful weapon (expensive as hell and not many can use it effectively imo) and would be fun to have it available for polearm users too without a need to get 2h wpf. Might be retarded suggestion but I said it   :mrgreen:.
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