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Suggestions Corner / what about footwork balance?
« on: July 31, 2013, 05:14:55 am »
I really like 2-handed weapons including polearms.
I really hate how they work in this game/mod though.
surely many will agree, some will disagree, some will say they're heard this all before. they're all right.
now after playing some few rounds on siege and battle, some thought came to mind, and I'd say it's time again to make another suggestion on how to improve those mechanics we all love.
the problem being today: ACCELERATION
2h and polearm users have a natural advantage because of their reach + turning speed => which makes for a bigger area where reasonable damage can be applied to a target (mostly with side-wings, although poking and turning is also not unheard of). ON TOP OF THAT they also have the usual acceleration from athletics that pretty much all characters want to invest at least some points in.
but what happens when you combine high athletics (7+) with a long 2-handed weapon like GS or miadao or glaive or even bardiche? you will be 1st: able to easily backpedal out of any 1-handers reach and 2nd: able to out-maneuver everybody else in the side-step fashion way too easily (which is fucking ridiculous to look at) without any loss of damage. now you might argue that you can still block the swings -- but, you have to admit that 1st: 1-handers have simply no chance to counter the backpedaling, especially with shields, as they make you slow and 1-handers are too short, and 2nd: there is _no good way_ to behave defensive against side-stepping from a 2-hander/polearm on steroids (that is 7+ athletics). note how I said "no good way", because it isn't impossible to beat them, but you just have to be either lucky, or team up (while trying to not make it easier for them (!) ) -- or use a long weapon like them, but that is kinda against the spirit of having so many other weapons to choose from, right?
no, I hold no grudge against PEOPLE who use such tactics.
my main has throwing lances and I know how to use them (minus the team hits), especially to counter such fairies, BUT I also rage a lot against the sheer stupidity of this mechanic, as it negates all the footwork I can do as a 1-hander with already 5 ath, not even accounting for the fact that shields always get bypassed too this way (which I find almost agreeable). and I don't want to talk about "realism" here, so just from a "fun" perspective, the question:
is this fun for the majority of players?
well, I would expect the answers to be around 35% "yes", as quite a lot of people play 2-handed and love to shift like flies around the pie, but MOST people (about 65%) will probably answer "no", even if they themselves have played 2h/polearm before, like I did. like I said, I like 2-handed, just not in this game. here is a picture to prove I actually played it:
and here is some other handsome chap I have drawn just because I like 2-handed: (did I mention that before?)
(just included this to actually illustrate my point, that is to make this less of a wall of text. and because I can.
yeah, it's not an action picture with footwork, but I wanna ask you to go ahead and imagine that yourself)
But like I said I got a simple solution to this problem, and it's not even discriminating to any class in particular: (yeah, listen to that!)
1. cap (normal state) effective athletics at 5 globally; this becomes a reasonable close-combat moving speed and acceleration
2. introduce a sprinting mechanic, which would be a short (5s ?) bonus of 3+additional athletics added to the basic ath, triggered at double tapping W, and only allocated when moving forward (W-key positive) (implementation should be possible as we also have the shield bonus thing, and nudge)
3. dedicate all the additional athletics (converted from what current characters have above the 5-ath-margin) to the sprint effect length, possibly cooldown reduction, and sprint acceleration
4. bonus: _maybe_ remove or reduce the risen-shield-debuff on moving speed for those shields lower than 4 in weight, or something
more ideas about sprint: make it a good investment for ranged who drop their bows and people who need to move around a lot, like 2-handers and polearms, who are needed in critical situations quite often; also good for steamrolling in packs, and/or shieldbash (?)
sprint would become some kind of jumpstart for faster mid-range engagement and helps to streamline some early game up-hill pilgrimages and stuff. the lower walking speed will help players re-evaluate their footwork and add some depth there. all in all I reckon seperating walking from running will make the game a lot more dynamic and believable.
NOW I expect to receive a lot of bullshit hate from e-peeners who don't quite get the idea of balancing for slightly more equal chances in footwork, but I also expect that people actually think about it, as it is quite doable. additionally I would find it rather amusing if this gets implemented and 2-handed +3 weps like GS and miadao and whatnot lose a lot of value on the market. bummer, but I then would actually buy one if I had the gold, because I would enjoy fighting with them a lot more, seriously. I would also feel like it's a chance for the heroes to be heroes again. don't you think?
I would also understand if the devs are not over the moon about it as it probably means rebalancing some weapons. I don't think we need it, but high agi/ath users may want to be buffed in other ways again. ah well, let them have it. less walking speed would be a nerf for high-ath-shielders too, so yeah.
I really hate how they work in this game/mod though.
surely many will agree, some will disagree, some will say they're heard this all before. they're all right.
now after playing some few rounds on siege and battle, some thought came to mind, and I'd say it's time again to make another suggestion on how to improve those mechanics we all love.
the problem being today: ACCELERATION
2h and polearm users have a natural advantage because of their reach + turning speed => which makes for a bigger area where reasonable damage can be applied to a target (mostly with side-wings, although poking and turning is also not unheard of). ON TOP OF THAT they also have the usual acceleration from athletics that pretty much all characters want to invest at least some points in.
but what happens when you combine high athletics (7+) with a long 2-handed weapon like GS or miadao or glaive or even bardiche? you will be 1st: able to easily backpedal out of any 1-handers reach and 2nd: able to out-maneuver everybody else in the side-step fashion way too easily (which is fucking ridiculous to look at) without any loss of damage. now you might argue that you can still block the swings -- but, you have to admit that 1st: 1-handers have simply no chance to counter the backpedaling, especially with shields, as they make you slow and 1-handers are too short, and 2nd: there is _no good way_ to behave defensive against side-stepping from a 2-hander/polearm on steroids (that is 7+ athletics). note how I said "no good way", because it isn't impossible to beat them, but you just have to be either lucky, or team up (while trying to not make it easier for them (!) ) -- or use a long weapon like them, but that is kinda against the spirit of having so many other weapons to choose from, right?
no, I hold no grudge against PEOPLE who use such tactics.
my main has throwing lances and I know how to use them (minus the team hits), especially to counter such fairies, BUT I also rage a lot against the sheer stupidity of this mechanic, as it negates all the footwork I can do as a 1-hander with already 5 ath, not even accounting for the fact that shields always get bypassed too this way (which I find almost agreeable). and I don't want to talk about "realism" here, so just from a "fun" perspective, the question:
is this fun for the majority of players?
well, I would expect the answers to be around 35% "yes", as quite a lot of people play 2-handed and love to shift like flies around the pie, but MOST people (about 65%) will probably answer "no", even if they themselves have played 2h/polearm before, like I did. like I said, I like 2-handed, just not in this game. here is a picture to prove I actually played it:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
yeah, it's not an action picture with footwork, but I wanna ask you to go ahead and imagine that yourself)
But like I said I got a simple solution to this problem, and it's not even discriminating to any class in particular: (yeah, listen to that!)
1. cap (normal state) effective athletics at 5 globally; this becomes a reasonable close-combat moving speed and acceleration
2. introduce a sprinting mechanic, which would be a short (5s ?) bonus of 3+additional athletics added to the basic ath, triggered at double tapping W, and only allocated when moving forward (W-key positive) (implementation should be possible as we also have the shield bonus thing, and nudge)
3. dedicate all the additional athletics (converted from what current characters have above the 5-ath-margin) to the sprint effect length, possibly cooldown reduction, and sprint acceleration
4. bonus: _maybe_ remove or reduce the risen-shield-debuff on moving speed for those shields lower than 4 in weight, or something
more ideas about sprint: make it a good investment for ranged who drop their bows and people who need to move around a lot, like 2-handers and polearms, who are needed in critical situations quite often; also good for steamrolling in packs, and/or shieldbash (?)
sprint would become some kind of jumpstart for faster mid-range engagement and helps to streamline some early game up-hill pilgrimages and stuff. the lower walking speed will help players re-evaluate their footwork and add some depth there. all in all I reckon seperating walking from running will make the game a lot more dynamic and believable.
NOW I expect to receive a lot of bullshit hate from e-peeners who don't quite get the idea of balancing for slightly more equal chances in footwork, but I also expect that people actually think about it, as it is quite doable. additionally I would find it rather amusing if this gets implemented and 2-handed +3 weps like GS and miadao and whatnot lose a lot of value on the market. bummer, but I then would actually buy one if I had the gold, because I would enjoy fighting with them a lot more, seriously. I would also feel like it's a chance for the heroes to be heroes again. don't you think?
I would also understand if the devs are not over the moon about it as it probably means rebalancing some weapons. I don't think we need it, but high agi/ath users may want to be buffed in other ways again. ah well, let them have it. less walking speed would be a nerf for high-ath-shielders too, so yeah.
