Author Topic: RIP Dedicated throwing  (Read 22377 times)

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Offline Seawied

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #135 on: June 20, 2011, 03:30:06 am »
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ya. I think a dev said somewhere that 10 wpf per PT is going to be the requirement instead of 14.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline Cheap_Shot

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #136 on: June 20, 2011, 03:40:07 am »
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ya. I think a dev said somewhere that 10 wpf per PT is going to be the requirement instead of 14.

I doubt it actually. It's 13 now, and will most likely be lowered to 12, or if we're lucky 11. I'm hoping for 11, since the wpf thing is the worst problem of the bunch.
I'll throw even when the weapons are gone. I can always throw punches and throw up.

Offline AlbaTiger

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #137 on: June 20, 2011, 06:25:58 pm »
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minimal wpf means 13 wpf per PT

I'm sorry but at 13 wpf per PT you would still have PT 10 being unplayable.

Going by the character planner:
(click to show/hide)

You would have to wear rediculously low armour as any wpf modifier would take you below the 130 limit.

Athletics 3 would leave you so slow that you would be picked appart by range, it would be nearly impossible to run and pick up the ammo from any missed throws before being taken out and the enemy would be able to close the gap on you so fast you'd be dead.

Low athletics doesn't matter to a Power Draw 10 archer because they are on the other side of the battlefield from their target ... a thrower has to be within 10 feet.

Of course if accuracy is tweaked so the effective range is a little longer for throwing it becomes slightly better.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 06:30:13 pm by AlbaTiger »

Offline cmp

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #138 on: June 20, 2011, 07:11:38 pm »
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I'm sorry but at 13 wpf per PT you would still have PT 10 being unplayable.

Yes, and that's exactly our intention. For the same reason that a 10PD archer is unplayable (except PT gives an even larger bonus than PD).

Offline 22nd_King_Plazek

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #139 on: June 20, 2011, 07:26:22 pm »
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So what about power strike is so special that is is perfectly playable at 10?


Offline AlbaTiger

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #140 on: June 20, 2011, 08:21:47 pm »
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Yes, and that's exactly our intention. For the same reason that a 10PD archer is unplayable (except PT gives an even larger bonus than PD).

10 PD archer unplayable ... don't make me laugh.

As I said my post a 10PD archer is FAR more effective than a 10PT thrower because the archers range and ammo count means they are much less likely to be in a situation where they NEED athletics.

Offline Seawied

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #141 on: June 20, 2011, 08:41:37 pm »
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So what about power strike is so special that is is perfectly playable at 10?

stole the words right out of my mouth.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline cmp

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #142 on: June 20, 2011, 09:57:36 pm »
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So what about power strike is so special that is is perfectly playable at 10?

Not sure why you're comparing melee with ranged, but if you really want numbers:

PS: 8% damage increase
vs.
PD: 10% damage increase + missile speed increase + closed reticle duration increase
PT: 12% damage increase + missile speed increase

10 PD archer unplayable ... don't make me laugh.

As I said my post a 10PD archer is FAR more effective than a 10PT thrower because the archers range and ammo count means they are much less likely to be in a situation where they NEED athletics.

Archer: 14 WPF/PD
Thrower: 13 WPF/PT + x1.25 bonus on remaining WPF

If you want I can make STR stacking throwers as "effective" as archers.

Offline 22nd_King_Plazek

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #143 on: June 20, 2011, 10:04:25 pm »
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Just dropping numbers does not mean much. I was hoping for something substantial perhaps involving reasoning. I already knew the % damages were different.

Obviously we are comparing melee with range because they are both present and major playing styles in the same game. Also because of the way you say:

Yes, and that's exactly our intention. For the same reason [care to share?] that a 10PD archer is unplayable (except PT gives an even larger bonus than PD).

Implying that of course 10PT/PD should not be playable. Suggesting there is a reason, yet not giving it. Given the obvious similarities between PT/PD and PS your statement simply begs the question as to why PS is so different.


Offline cmp

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #144 on: June 20, 2011, 10:13:35 pm »
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It was decided that 10PD should not be playable when 10PD was the norm, and massively overpowered.
Sorry if that disappoints you, but that's simply how balancing works in every game, there is no philosophy essay about the complex reasoning behind the changes.

Offline 22nd_King_Plazek

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #145 on: June 20, 2011, 10:16:41 pm »
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Didn't expect any.

But saying that it was overpowered otherwise in the opinion of the dev team certainly tells me a lot more than dropping some numbers :P

Offline cmp

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #146 on: June 20, 2011, 10:42:19 pm »
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Just to make it clear, the throwing changes aren't final yet.
It will be buffed in the next patch; it might be enough or it might not. In the latter case it will be buffed again, until we feel that it's balanced (and yes, we are very well aware that right now it's not).

Offline Paul

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #147 on: June 20, 2011, 10:58:25 pm »
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One additional problem with throwing is that there is no item difficulty based maximum PT bonus. For archery it is (difficulty +4). So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective although they are meant to be a peasant weapon.


Offline 22nd_King_Plazek

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #148 on: June 20, 2011, 11:00:19 pm »
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David and Goliath :P

Offline Seawied

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Re: RIP Dedicated throwing
« Reply #149 on: June 20, 2011, 11:11:37 pm »
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One additional problem with throwing is that there is no item difficulty based maximum PT bonus. For archery it is (difficulty +4). So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective although they are meant to be a peasant weapon.

I have a character which I designed to throw rocks, and only rocks. While I can get a rare kill with rocks, only the radically insane, formerly dropped-kicked children, and the mentally handicapped would ever willingly choose to use rocks as their primary weapon. On the NA servers, I am currently the only radically insane, formerly- dropped-kick child, mentally handicapped person who uses this play-style.

I don't understand the reasoning behind nerfing a highly inefficient weapon. To be honest, I think that if a dev is of the mindset that rocks are too strong, you should be completely removed from the balance team.

Are they accurate with high PT? Yes, but anyone with 0 wpf in crossbows can pick up any xbow and be more accurate than a 10 pt thrower chucking stones. Are they damaging? Fuck no! Most of the kills on my stone-chucker are from barely-living disemboweled peasants who have lost the will to live.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol: