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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Thomek on March 05, 2012, 04:55:46 am

Title: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Thomek on March 05, 2012, 04:55:46 am
Great Long Axe and Danish. They are just crowding the battlefield.

A 2h player? most likely danish.
Every polearmer or polecav pulls out a big ass axe and hiltslashes it..

Paul, Fasaderp. Do you really want this bias towards the longest ranged weapons?

I've said it a gazillion times, your formulas for 2h/pole doesn't reflect the battle power of weapons sufficiently. IMO it doesn't count in the range of weapons and weigh it in enough..

That's really the core problem. It's not some kind of superstition or romanticism with big swords that makes so many players use them. I think i.ex the Longsword is an excellent sword, perfectly usable in battle. The only problem is that there is another sword that is longer AND does more damage in cut and pierce. The experienced speed difference in game marginal, and not many wants to spend those saved $$$ on armor since it will slow them down too much. And with a shorter sword you need superior speed to not get backpedalspammed..

To be more precise. I think the reason the longest weapons are more powerful than they "should" be according to formula, is that the longest weapon will always outrange everything else (duh). And towards the end of the list of the longest wep, they outrange almost everything, and very little outrange them. So in a random selection of encounters, you get the "Backpedal and get free slash effect" much more often with a long wep.  So the metagame adapts to this, and you end up with everyone using a danish greatsword.

Now the question:
Should we nerf the longest 4 directional weapons a little bit and have a more varied battlefield?

The only melee infantry players NOT using a danish or a Great Long Axe are different variants of roleplayers.

This is not me having a problem with these weapons. It's just really boring to see so little of our amazing armory getting used.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Herra Hakkarainen on March 05, 2012, 05:52:43 am
I think I saw someone using shield + 1h.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Malaclypse on March 05, 2012, 05:56:14 am
Ah you don't find min-max gear choices fun either, huh Thomek?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: John on March 05, 2012, 06:23:20 am
I agree with the premise of your argument but I don't really have an opinion about any course of action.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Kalam on March 05, 2012, 06:39:29 am
Double (or triple) the weight, slow the speed down by 2ish. Sure, more weapon stuns, but they'll be slower for choosing the weapon.

Edit: though, this doesn't really change anything long-term. Folks will just find something else that works well. Keep in mind, I'm one of those who wonder why there are so many short swords when none of them are viable in battle.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Cepeshi on March 05, 2012, 06:43:15 am
Bullcrap, i am 2her and i use german...  :rolleyes:

when i was pole, i was mostly running bec or long hafted knobbed, not GLA as i did not had enuff str for it  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2012, 06:58:39 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 05, 2012, 04:55:46 am
The only melee infantry players NOT using a danish or a Great Long Axe are different variants of roleplayers.

That's correct. Danish and german, though.

Quote from: Cepeshi on March 05, 2012, 06:43:15 am
Bullcrap, i am 2her and i use german...  :rolleyes:
Its all the same. Top-tier weapons anyway. We need some more diversity on the field.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Wraist on March 05, 2012, 07:13:43 am
What's the damage done by the GLA as a percentage of the total damage done on the EU servers?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 05, 2012, 07:20:05 am
GLA isn't even close to the best polearm. Long Bardiche is much better, but so much harder to get as well.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: BADPLAYERold on March 05, 2012, 07:40:51 am
GLA is hardly used on NA except if you are going for a nordic theme, I don't see how it's the best polearm at all I can name probably 10more polearms I would rather use than it.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Cepeshi on March 05, 2012, 07:57:37 am
Well, when i want to have fun, i go sword, when crowded place i go either barmace or morningstar, when feeling in the right mood, i use maul.

Depends on opportunity and map. I even tend to take longsword or goedendag time from time when i am having troubles being outspammed too often :P :) And yes, i am noob :mrgreen:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: duurrr on March 05, 2012, 07:58:56 am
and this is why metagame is important to factor in when you balance i guess?

almost never see danish/GLA on na lol
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 08:02:04 am
GLA isn't long either. Poleaxe is long and much better than GLA but I guess not many people use it because of looks (it's kinda fugly). Or they fear that 89 speed is too slow (which is not). GLA isn't the best polearm, not even close (basically every poleaxe is better). Seems to me that you got owned by Tor and came here crying.

Danish is the longest (stab wise) and overall best 2H (same goes for my German). Should they be nerfed? Won't that make them worse than best polearms? I'll rather buff other swords.

Long Bardiche is still unbalanced price wise, great weapon but so cheap.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 08:04:50 am
Quote from: Wraist on March 05, 2012, 07:13:43 am
What's the damage done by the GLA as a percentage of the total damage done on the EU servers?

When Tor is online, about 90%. Otherwise, not more than 2% :lol:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Camaris on March 05, 2012, 08:05:11 am
Actually the problem of the shorter weapon is the following:
+ they are cheaper
+ you get speed
- you lose damage
- you lose lot of range

=> For most 2-Hand money of the swords are no reason not to take them => You can decide to go with those long swords and get extra damage, extra range for lower speed or take the short sword and only get speed.

Not long 2H should be nerfed. Short 2H should be buffed. They should get more damage
You should chose between:
Short and fast
vs
Long and slow

not between:
Short and fast
Long and Superhighdamage and slow

PS: Nerf Mauls.
PPS: To nerf long 2H is no solution cause they are balanced vs other categories atm. You cant nerf them further.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2012, 08:06:01 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 08:02:04 am
I'll rather buff other swords.
Whatever brings more diversity, but tbh I think they can buff whatever they want, german and danish will stay as the most used 2h. Reach is the king here.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 08:09:23 am
You can't fix reach in this game. Reach is what makes peasant weapons like Scythe and Fauchard pretty solid if used with correct build. Sure, they both have crappy stats but that reach. Because of reach Glaive is nearly broken weapon (and much better than mean GLA Thomek is talking about).

And btw, Thomek wants another Katana buff, isn't it obvious...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2012, 08:12:10 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 08:09:23 am
You can't fix reach in this game.
They can nerf reach on danish  :lol:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 08:13:44 am
By changing animations, yes they can do it that way. Or changing the model. Both are not likely to happen anytime soon.

Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2012, 08:18:14 am
I'd say, just raise its cost.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 08:20:45 am
To 20, 25, 30, 50K gold? That ain't gonna fix shit but you can try it :D
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2012, 08:22:43 am
Depends on what kind of fix you want. Ppl are touchy about their gold, anyway, so it'll lower the amout of GS's you see every day.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 08:28:35 am
Danish is overused, but not by noobs. Typical noobie won't kill anyone with it, more experienced players use and own with Danish (like yourself for example). It will just make it unavailable to most people but those that kill Thomek regularly while he's changing from his Javelins to Spamtana will keep using Danish because they have gold, can sell looms to use it etc.

New players mostly use pikes, because it's easiest to score kills by stabbing from behind. They can try to spam Danish but as soon as they get to someone average (like myself) they'll get killed because Danish is so easy to block when used by people who just spam it.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 05, 2012, 08:31:27 am
Just take some damage off them. Simple as that. Then the length is the advantage and not the 4-7 extra damage being dealt.

Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2012, 08:37:12 am
Well, can't say I care about thomek getting slaughtered. As I said, I care about seeing as many different melee weapons(and being balanced, but that, imo, is already achieved) in the game as possible. From that position, doesnt really matter what segment of playerbase will or will not use those swords.
Quote from: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 08:28:35 am
Typical noobie won't kill anyone with it
If you look at it this way, typical noobie won't kill anyone with anything :P
But, seriously, backpeddlespam with danish is not that difficult  :) aaaand its reach that gets you kills in battle. Just by allowing to steal kills\gang someone up in a more effective way.
Quote from: FRANK_THE_TANK on March 05, 2012, 08:31:27 am
Just take some damage off them. Simple as that. Then the length is the advantage and not the 4-7 extra damage being dealt.
There's no logic in that. Its just unrealistic.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Zaren on March 05, 2012, 08:52:34 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 05, 2012, 04:55:46 am
Great Long Axe and Danish. They are just crowding the battlefield.

A 2h player? most likely danish.
Every polearmer or polecav pulls out a big ass axe and hiltslashes it..

Paul, Fasaderp. Do you really want this bias towards the longest ranged weapons?

I've said it a gazillion times, your formulas for 2h/pole doesn't reflect the battle power of weapons sufficiently. IMO it doesn't count in the range of weapons and weigh it in enough..

That's really the core problem. It's not some kind of superstition or romanticism with big swords that makes so many players use them. I think i.ex the Longsword is an excellent sword, perfectly usable in battle. The only problem is that there is another sword that is longer AND does more damage in cut and pierce. The experienced speed difference in game marginal, and not many wants to spend those saved $$$ on armor since it will slow them down too much. And with a shorter sword you need superior speed to not get backpedalspammed..

To be more precise. I think the reason the longest weapons are more powerful than they "should" be according to formula, is that the longest weapon will always outrange everything else (duh). And towards the end of the list of the longest wep, they outrange almost everything, and very little outrange them. So in a random selection of encounters, you get the "Backpedal and get free slash effect" much more often with a long wep.  So the metagame adapts to this, and you end up with everyone using a danish greatsword.

Now the question:
Should we nerf the longest 4 directional weapons a little bit and have a more varied battlefield?

The only melee infantry players NOT using a danish or a Great Long Axe are different variants of roleplayers.

This is not me having a problem with these weapons. It's just really boring to see so little of our amazing armory getting used.
i dont know about EU but in NA i rarely see danish users.... majority of 2hs are longswords/HBS with germans and the occational other
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 08:58:00 am
Okay, so we nerf Danish and German (make them ridiculously expensive for example). Then what?

Everyone will switch to Sword of War and Greatsword.

Nerf all greatswords? Now that makes sense but it will give polearms huge advantage.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2012, 09:00:09 am
There's only one way then. NERF EVERYTHING
Nah, just raise prices on all top-tier weapons and see how it works out.
And remove polestagger goddamit, a such mechanic must not exist in a skill-based game.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Cepeshi on March 05, 2012, 09:01:17 am
Quote from: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 08:58:00 am
Okay, so we nerf Danish and German (make them ridiculously expensive for example). Then what?

Everyone will switch to Sword of War and Greatsword.

Nerf all greatswords? Now that makes sense but it will give polearms huge advantage.

poles already have advantage in stagger, not to speak some of them have almost as high cut as high end swords, but superior thrust dmg... keep it as it is
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vexus on March 05, 2012, 09:40:17 am
Long ago I was thinking about this problem (Not which 2h/pole is overly used over the others but about the diversity) but my idea would take too much time to do.

My idea was that swords, axes, maces/hammers, etc etc would be split into their own "class" meaning that instead of spending wpf into 2h you had to choose in what proficiency you wanted your character to be good in, say swords and you would be proficient in ALL swords even 2h ones BUT not proficient in the axes and maces counterparts.

The 1h/2h could be also split but I fear it would be too big of a list and if it happened wpf should be able to grant a moderate amount of wpf for 2 weapon styles or high in 1 weapon style.

This will probably never happen but I thought it would be great for having characters specialised in a single weapon instead of a whole armament.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2012, 09:41:38 am
Well current upkeep system is a fucked up fail anyway.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Paul on March 05, 2012, 09:53:49 am
Polearm usage is already pretty diverse. Don't really see the GLA dominating that much there. 2h axes might get a buff.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Wraist on March 05, 2012, 09:55:39 am
Is this devolving into a Pole vs 2her debate? I do agree that stagger should go, but 2hers and poles seem pretty balanced.

If you want, perhaps do something to promote their strengths? Such as giving 2hers +1her/Pol prof if they use their weapon in off mode [As an example, using a longsword with a shield will add 50% of your 2her prof into 1her for as long as it's used that way, or if used in half sword mode, 50% of your 2her prof will go into pole prof for as long as you use it that way, again, just examples]. That might help diversify swords or other weapons [LS/Katana/MS with shield for chasing archers, or running into pikes, 2h mode for everything else].

Edit: Apparently Vexus wrote something somewhat similar when I was typing :|

For poles, IDK, I used most of them until they piss me off/annoy me/fail me, then I start the cycle all over :|. Most of them work fine [long voluge is one of the few I wouldn't touch again] and I don't think they need any diversifying stuff from my experience against them.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vibe on March 05, 2012, 10:39:19 am
the only solution is to nerf ranged
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Zerran on March 05, 2012, 11:01:47 am
I'll take a long war axe any day over the GLA personally.

imo the only way to increase diversity on the battlefield would be to buff individuality and nerf follower mentality.  :lol: Just look at the kuyaks and the number of kuyak users. Armors basically increase in armor, weight, and price in a fairly even scale, and the kuyaks are in no way the best looking armor (at least imo) yet there are hordes of kuyak users. People see others using a certain item and doing well with it, and for some reason then believe that they will also be able to do that well if they take the same gear, which is of course complete bullshit.

I see nothing overpowered about either the GLA or the danish. Are they good weapons? Yes. Are they well rounded? Yes. Are they the end-all ultimate weapons? Hell no.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on March 05, 2012, 11:12:51 am
I use Greatsword, whohoo I'm so very alternative.

on matter, basicly this:
Quote from: John on March 05, 2012, 06:23:20 am
I agree with the premise of your argument but I don't really have an opinion about any course of action.

Only Idea which could be worth a try is to make the top tier weapons much more expensive.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on March 05, 2012, 11:13:08 am
I don't see the problem with polearms, but high end 2h's are all the same. We need more high end stuff that aren't swords.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on March 05, 2012, 11:17:37 am
Quote from: Ninja_Khorin on March 05, 2012, 11:13:08 am
I don't see the problem with polearms, but high end 2h's are all the same. We need more high end stuff that aren't swords.
problem is high end really depends on length here and you can't simply make axes, maces and hammers as long as the greatswords.

Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 05, 2012, 12:05:11 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 05, 2012, 04:55:46 am
Great Long Axe and Danish. They are just crowding the battlefield.

A 2h player? most likely danish.
Every polearmer or polecav pulls out a big ass axe and hiltslashes it..

Paul, Fasaderp. Do you really want this bias towards the longest ranged weapons?

I've said it a gazillion times, your formulas for 2h/pole doesn't reflect the battle power of weapons sufficiently. IMO it doesn't count in the range of weapons and weigh it in enough..

That's really the core problem. It's not some kind of superstition or romanticism with big swords that makes so many players use them. I think i.ex the Longsword is an excellent sword, perfectly usable in battle. The only problem is that there is another sword that is longer AND does more damage in cut and pierce. The experienced speed difference in game marginal, and not many wants to spend those saved $$$ on armor since it will slow them down too much. And with a shorter sword you need superior speed to not get backpedalspammed..

To be more precise. I think the reason the longest weapons are more powerful than they "should" be according to formula, is that the longest weapon will always outrange everything else (duh). And towards the end of the list of the longest wep, they outrange almost everything, and very little outrange them. So in a random selection of encounters, you get the "Backpedal and get free slash effect" much more often with a long wep.  So the metagame adapts to this, and you end up with everyone using a danish greatsword.

Now the question:
Should we nerf the longest 4 directional weapons a little bit and have a more varied battlefield?

The only melee infantry players NOT using a danish or a Great Long Axe are different variants of roleplayers.

This is not me having a problem with these weapons. It's just really boring to see so little of our amazing armory getting used.

The answer is the exact opposite of nerfing the top weapons. it is to BUFF all the underused weapons. They aren't used because they aren't truly viable -- not because those top weapons are all that crazy better. Do you see where I'm going?


Quote from: Paul on March 05, 2012, 09:53:49 am
Polearm usage is already pretty diverse. Don't really see the GLA dominating that much there. 2h axes might get a buff.
Buffing the 2h axes is a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: cmp on March 05, 2012, 01:44:02 pm
EU1 infantry by damage dealt in a month

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vibe on March 05, 2012, 01:48:06 pm
Nice stats, lol at DGS damage
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Moncho on March 05, 2012, 02:07:35 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on March 05, 2012, 01:44:02 pm
EU1 infantry by damage dealt in a month

(click to show/hide)
Can we please see a similar one but with ranged, to check the horn/rus/long bows comparison? (and xbows too, although i dont know much about them)
Quote from: Vibe on March 05, 2012, 01:48:06 pm
Nice stats, lol at DGS damage
qft here
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 05, 2012, 02:19:33 pm
I dont think you need to nerf them, leave them as they are. Makes longswords special when so few use them and imo it is alot better than the greatswords. Or you could increase the damage on the shorter swords, make them hit like a danish/german. The Greatswords have the reach, the shorter swords have the speed.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 05, 2012, 02:31:32 pm
Wow, long spears dealt the most damage out of all polearms? That's.. interesting.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: [ptx] on March 05, 2012, 02:45:32 pm
And still less than 2nd most popular 2her, considering they are widely used "utility" weapons :lol:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: BlackMilk on March 05, 2012, 02:46:37 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 08:02:04 am
Danish is the longest (stab wise) and overall best 2H (same goes for my German). Should they be nerfed? Won't that make them worse than best polearms? I'll rather buff other swords.
No? SoW and GS are far far better
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on March 05, 2012, 02:47:35 pm
buff arbalest and everything will be okay
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: cmp on March 05, 2012, 03:12:14 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: cmp on March 05, 2012, 03:12:31 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2012, 03:16:43 pm
Wow, the nearly never seen longsword dominates on NA  :lol:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: cmp on March 05, 2012, 03:18:26 pm
Don't need range that much vs snail STR builds...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vodner on March 05, 2012, 03:20:16 pm
Quote
Darts (mounted)                       6        0.00% 
Alright, who is the magnificent person who managed to pull this off?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: [ptx] on March 05, 2012, 03:21:32 pm
Yay! Enough statistics for MONTHS of whining! :mrgreen:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: oprah_winfrey on March 05, 2012, 03:27:53 pm
If range is king on EU1, why is the glaive so underused?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: MrShine on March 05, 2012, 03:31:34 pm
Any way to pull stats on the % of players using these weapons? 

For example, looking at EU 2H damage Danish takes the cake, but is the danish that powerful or is it just that everyone is using it?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: dodnet on March 05, 2012, 03:33:17 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 05, 2012, 04:55:46 am
The only melee infantry players NOT using a danish or a Great Long Axe are different variants of roleplayers.

So I shall count myself as roleplayer  :mrgreen:

I use Light Lance on foot and I know it sucks big time (or I do  8-) ) but I like using it. More variety would be great sometimes... its like almost every lancer cav uses Heavy Lance.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: dodnet on March 05, 2012, 03:36:47 pm
Bamboo Spear (mounted)            730        0.00%
Swiss Halberd (mounted)           567        0.00%
Long Spear (mounted)              501        0.00%
Ashwood Pike (mounted)            24         0.00%

 :mrgreen:

I just wonder where Pike (mounted) is  :?:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Shik on March 05, 2012, 03:38:31 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on March 05, 2012, 03:18:26 pm
Don't need range that much vs snail STR builds...
translation: eu crutching on backpeddling
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: cmp on March 05, 2012, 03:45:49 pm
Quote from: Shik on March 05, 2012, 03:38:31 pm
translation: eu crutching on range with their sissy backpeddling tactics.

We should do a NA STR crutchers vs. EU backpedal crutchers tournament.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Thomek on March 05, 2012, 03:45:55 pm
Wow looks like this hit a nerve somewhere.. four pages for a 5am rant!

Thanks for statistics cmp :) At least for EU my feelings are proven.
(click to show/hide)

What was really surprising is the NA metagame with the longsword. I guess their thinking is longsword 10k cheaper, so 10k moar armor and str build to go hand in hand with that armor. Is it true that NA doesn't know how to block or what?

Anyway.. The point stands. Look at the ground after a battle. It is littered with DGS.

Are you ready for another round of balancing Paul?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: cmp on March 05, 2012, 03:51:59 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 05, 2012, 03:45:55 pm
Is it true that NA doesn't know how to block or what?

Yes. My cousin told me that he spectated NA for an hour and nobody blocked even once. Trufax.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Oberyn on March 05, 2012, 03:52:40 pm
What I find interesting is also the difference between 1h weaps. Seems NA favour stabby 1h'rs much more than EU. Related to EU having more 1H cav? NCS on foot and mounted arabian cav sword both have 3x has much total damage as the highest dmg dealing NA 1h...1h diversity seems much greater there, but EU does have like 3% more overall 1h dmg.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: MrShine on March 05, 2012, 04:00:07 pm
All I got out of those 2H stats was EU players are compensating for their lack of penis size.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Thomek on March 05, 2012, 04:06:21 pm
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on March 05, 2012, 03:51:59 pm
Yes. My cousin told me that he spectated NA for an hour and nobody blocked even once. Trufax.

I've been to NA a few times, but It's hard to see anything because of the chat-shitstorm cluttering the view.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 05, 2012, 04:20:55 pm
Quote from: [ptx] on March 05, 2012, 02:45:32 pm
And still less than 2nd most popular 2her, considering they are widely used "utility" weapons :lol:

Yes, but you see a lot less long spears around than you see german greatswords... especially since there's some real options for stabbity stab weapons: pike, long spear, awlpike, long awlpike, bamboo spear, ashwood pike, the list goes on
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Dezilagel on March 05, 2012, 04:21:40 pm
Surprised at the (relatively) low numbers on the poleaxes and the Glavie, also the Heavy Lance dmg on foot O.o

In short:

Quote from: [ptx] on March 05, 2012, 03:21:32 pm
Yay! Enough statistics for MONTHS of whining! :mrgreen:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Cup1d on March 05, 2012, 04:23:45 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on March 05, 2012, 04:21:40 pm
Surprised at the (relatively) low numbers on the poleaxes and the Glavie, also the Heavy Lance dmg on foot O.o

In short:

Some weapons counted two times. Bec for example, and elegant poleaxe too.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Dezilagel on March 05, 2012, 04:25:21 pm
Quote from: Cup1d on March 05, 2012, 04:23:45 pm
Some weapons counted two times. Bec for example

Well, those numbers are so low they hardly matter
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Cup1d on March 05, 2012, 04:34:21 pm
Maybe it's secondary mode...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Dezilagel on March 05, 2012, 04:35:10 pm
Probably, still incredibly low and insignificant numbers so I'm not sure what you're trying to say in response to my post  :?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Nessaj on March 05, 2012, 04:38:27 pm
I blame CMP for all imbalances and issues.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on March 05, 2012, 04:45:29 pm
Cudgel (mounted)                    48 

Whoever did this is my hero
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Teeth on March 05, 2012, 04:50:26 pm
The fuck, my mind is completely fucked from multiple directions.

Heavy lance damage on foot, the hell?

Why are there so many horse crossbowmen on NA, doesn't it suck equus africanus asinus dick?

Why not the long twohanders NA? Although I knew this from the few times I've duelled on NA, only longswords and HBS.

Does NA actually know how to stab with 1h? So much long espadas.

How does one do damage with a siege shield?

The katana 3rd and 2nd, really didnt see that coming.

-----------------------------------

Ontopic:

The great long axe isnt exactly a long polearm Thomek. Personally I bought a Danish too when I left ninja, hated it soon after cause whenever I picked up one of the other twohanders it felt like they were faster. I really think the Danish is slower than the German, like 1 speed point, and the Greatsword is more than just 1 speed point faster than the Danish.

There are all these subtle speed differences between the different 2h, in the end making the Greatsword the best one cause its really fast. I am not the only one who thinks this. The speedrating doesn't properly showcase the actual speed. Not sure how and why, but theres definitely  some inaccuracies there.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vibe on March 05, 2012, 04:52:27 pm
nvm
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 05, 2012, 05:19:50 pm
I think the long war axe is better than the GLA...you get 2 less length, but 1 more speed (and 1 less cut).  I'll take the 1 speed over 2 length/1 cut damage every day.

The GLA is 125 length...not nearly the "longest" polearm...it's 91 speed, I'd rather have the long bardiche at that point and get 140 length and 89 speed.

Quote from: Cepeshi on March 05, 2012, 09:01:17 am
poles already have advantage in stagger, not to speak some of them have almost as high cut as high end swords, but superior thrust dmg... keep it as it is

No, it's balanced by 2h having longer reach on the animations

Love the stats CMP...I take back any snide comments I've made to you.  <3

Can you release these like once a month so people can look at them and whine and bitch and petition for more nerfs?  :)

At least a million of that damage from heavy lance (mounted) on NA1 is from me  8-)  Would be cool if on your crpg char page you could see damage you dealt as an individual.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Wraist on March 05, 2012, 05:41:09 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on March 05, 2012, 04:50:26 pm
How does one do damage with a siege shield?

I killed somebody with a ladder before, I kind of threw it at him and a little headshot symbol appeared with him dead and me as the killer
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Turboflex on March 05, 2012, 05:45:16 pm
twice as much throwing on NA hehe, we love our pew pew pew.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 05, 2012, 05:48:23 pm
Quote from: Wraist on March 05, 2012, 05:41:09 pm
I killed somebody with a ladder before, I kind of threw it at him and a little headshot symbol appeared with him dead and me as the killer

if you deployed it could have glitched or been destroyed and sent the person on the ladder flying.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Wraist on March 05, 2012, 07:04:28 pm
Both of us were on level ground, when I had a ladder and a ranged person tried to shoot me, I always threw it at them in response [in hopes of hiding behind it]. It also fell on his head.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Paul on March 05, 2012, 07:09:03 pm
Because of the low throwing speed ladders gain a LOT relative damage bonus from gravity. They also can't be set to 0 base damage because of a bug.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Dezilagel on March 05, 2012, 07:11:01 pm
Quote from: Paul on March 05, 2012, 07:09:03 pm
Because of the low throwing speed ladders gain a LOT relative damage bonus from gravity. They also can't be set to 0 base damage because of a bug.

STF char inc.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 05, 2012, 07:24:24 pm
Hmm those statistics need one thing more... Horse bump damages :lol:. I would like to know what horse makes most bump damage on the servers. I bet it's destrier....
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Siiem on March 05, 2012, 07:32:31 pm
The solution to this problem is to buff GLA and nerf DGS.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 05, 2012, 07:35:15 pm
I don't think those weapons need nerfs, and infact I find a lot of the shorter weapons superior to those gigantic danishes (danish is one of my least favorite weapons, I can use the other greatswords fine, but I just can't seem to learn the danish) and german GS', I love my throwing lance in melee more than my poleaxe (but you can still buff my throwing lance, DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :mrgreen: ), my twohander build "NCB" uses a morningstar and sucks with it, but that's only 'cause I suck and haven't gotten good enough with that weapon yet, my archer build uses a langes messer (spelling?) instead of the gay mace. I love the langes messer, the morning star is a great deal of fun and I'm sure I'll become ok with it in time, and I'd outright marry my throwing lance if I could :p
TBH I don't think any of these weapons needs a buff and I don't think the greatswords need a nerf (I don't believe money is an issue (so I'm not using that as my excuse) as upkeep doesn't and never will work), problem is all the pro's (all the famous ones) go with these weapons for some reason, then losers who care more about their KD than how much fun they have copy the pro's hoping for success.
 - Zlisch The Bitch
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Kansuke on March 05, 2012, 08:07:12 pm
One handers last used melee weapons, not really a big surprise but still this should be the class dominating the battlefield with ranged having them as side weapon...
This can be easily understood, pure melee class prefers 2h and pole because using a shield is really a pain in the ass in this game and you can actually do much better without it. Shield don't protect you that much about ranged like they should and they slow you down too much in clusterfuck melee blob while they should give you an advantage in this kind of situation.
Then why using a one handed weapon if you don't use a shield and when you can have 2h/pole with longer reach / better damage...
You got it, no point using one handed weapon since combined with a shield it sucks and without shield you can have much better weapon in other class.

Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Dezilagel on March 05, 2012, 08:23:24 pm
I did a stf 1h noshield and it was awesome O.o

1h have enough stuff going for then for them being a viable choice imo.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 05, 2012, 08:24:19 pm
Kan - not 100% true about 1h/shield.  I'm better with 1h/shield as it blocks me from ranged.  Also in strategus shields are crucial (so if you are using teamwork, they are also crucial in public servers).
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: MrShine on March 05, 2012, 08:29:32 pm
having a shield is amazing in big clusterfucks, I can't count the number of times I've just pushed my way through a chokepoint and broken a line.

manual blocking is great against single targets, but the best manual blocker in the world won't be able to block a pike thrust and a left swing at the same time... unless they are blocking with a shield.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Moncho on March 05, 2012, 08:44:32 pm
Thats all very well, until one of the people around you thinks and decides to strike you in the back...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: MrShine on March 05, 2012, 08:46:47 pm
Quote from: Spaniard on March 05, 2012, 08:44:32 pm
Thats all very well, until one of the people around you thinks and decides to strike you in the back...

E: I misread your response originally.

Well if you push through their line then they are forced to either a) stay where they are facing and get hit in the back by me or b) turn to face me and deal with the rest of my team hitting them in the back.

I might die but being quick with turning the shield to face incoming attacks can absorb most blows, and in the meantime their formation is completely broken up.  If my team doesn't follow then ofc I'm fucked but running in with a shield and forcing them to turn/break up formation works a surprising amount of the time.  It's almost impossible to pull this off as well without a shield.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2012, 09:07:35 pm
Quote from: Siiem on March 05, 2012, 07:32:31 pm
The solution to this problem is to buff GLA and nerf katana.
fix'd
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Siiem on March 05, 2012, 09:22:10 pm
Quote from: Logen on March 05, 2012, 09:07:35 pm
fix'd

You're right, you're right. Your wisdom Logen, what would I ever do without it? Or you for that matter.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2012, 09:26:30 pm
Well, we both could've relied on xant's wisdom. Oh wait...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 09:46:16 pm
Quote
Shortened Military Scythe 151,530    1.20%

Me and RandomDude

Quote
Awlpike                  472,374  4.78%

Chase, BloodSonic and Phase
 
Quote
Pike                     421,570  4.27% 

Pretty pathetic damage dealt, considering how many people are using it. Just proves my theory that only noobs use this 8n EU severs.

Quote
Poleaxe                  316,024  3.20% 

Dezilagel

Quote
Bec de Corbin            286,713  2.90% 

dafuq :shock:

Quote
Great Long Bardiche      244,530  2.48% 

Elio
 
Quote
Fauchard                 124,333  1.26% 

Probably Bars

Quote
Scythe                   152,189  1.54% 

TomMyyY

Quote
Nordic Champion's Sword     1,392,840  15.37%

Nordmen
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vibe on March 05, 2012, 09:55:53 pm
1h no shield is not awesome, specially not for battle where everyone is using the max range weapons.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Moncho on March 05, 2012, 10:06:22 pm
Quote from: MrShine on March 05, 2012, 08:46:47 pm
(click to show/hide)
Didnt get to see your original post, but hope it was fun :P
I see what you mean, in a formation it works pretty well. I remember doing that about a year ago when I was in Acre and it worked, but generally in EU1 and others formations dont happen. I dont play much strategus so i dont know how things are there, maybe different.

BTW (dont like to doublepost): Archers deal only under 10% damage, and ranged in total (counting mounted) deal around 20% damage, less than 2hers alone and around the same as poles and 1her.
And within bows, rus and horn appear to be in a good place, but i think the long should be buffed, it is clear that it is scarcely used (more HAs than longbowmen ffs!!).

Quote from: cmpxchg8b on March 05, 2012, 03:12:14 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Teeth on March 05, 2012, 10:07:47 pm
Quote from: Kansuke on March 05, 2012, 08:07:12 pm
Then why using a one handed weapon if you don't use a shield and when you can have 2h/pole with longer reach / better damage...
Because using a 1 hander without shield is exquisite. And you can claim that you can beat people with one hand behind your back.

Quote from: Vibe on March 05, 2012, 09:55:53 pm
1h no shield is not awesome, specially not for battle where everyone is using the max range weapons.
I have been a 1 hander without a shield for quite some hours now and I must say I quite like it. The damage is reasonable, you move faster with a 1 hand so you can do a more str focused build. The range of the 102 length 1H should not be underestimated. You have the rightswing which has tremendous range. Outranges a lot of things and people underestimate the range. Weapon stun is quite an issue, but you slowly get used to it and doesnt fuck you over that much. Just puts you on the defensive.

And then you have the leftswing, oh the sweet leftswing. Headhitting is the rule with the leftswing, you can spam it quite a lot. Biggest advantage of 1hander is this lightning fast attack. Another advantage is that the weapons are quite cheap for their effectiveness, as you dont use an expensive shield. You can also sidestep and backpedal quite fast with a light 1h. 1h also handles great and people suck at blocking them.

Most of all though, you look like and are a badass with just a 1h. Swashbucklin like a baws.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 05, 2012, 10:10:51 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 05, 2012, 09:46:16 pm
You're stalking everyone!
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 05, 2012, 10:22:08 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on March 05, 2012, 04:50:26 pm
The fuck, my mind is completely fucked from multiple directions.

Heavy lance damage on foot, the hell?
Yeah Man, get dehorsed and have no other weapon? Time to get lucky with it.

Why are there so many horse crossbowmen on NA, doesn't it suck equus africanus asinus dick?
 Rohypnol. Him. Just him. He has caused a hug einflux of wannabe rohypnol xbow cav.

Why not the long twohanders NA? Although I knew this from the few times I've duelled on NA, only longswords and HBS.
We prefer to block one time, then be in range with ability to attack faster. Rather than get the first attack with a longer greatsword. Make sense?

Does NA actually know how to stab with 1h? So much long espadas.
Yes, we do know how to 1h stab, along with that a few tricks to it. Did you know you can double stab with 1hs? After they are hit by one attack, you can squeeze a thrust into their face before they can block (if you step correctly, perfect distance, turning into them). Also, in a feint series, if you switch from a left swing into a thrust but you are looking up and to the left, the weapon will be in the same position as a left swing, people will block to the right as you bend a thrust into their face. You're welcome eu.

How does one do damage with a siege shield?

The katana 3rd and 2nd, really didnt see that coming.

-----------------------------------

Ontopic:

The great long axe isnt exactly a long polearm Thomek. Personally I bought a Danish too when I left ninja, hated it soon after cause whenever I picked up one of the other twohanders it felt like they were faster. I really think the Danish is slower than the German, like 1 speed point, and the Greatsword is more than just 1 speed point faster than the Danish.

There are all these subtle speed differences between the different 2h, in the end making the Greatsword the best one cause its really fast. I am not the only one who thinks this. The speedrating doesn't properly showcase the actual speed. Not sure how and why, but theres definitely  some inaccuracies there.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on March 05, 2012, 10:29:49 pm
you forgot about quickscythe, leshma. wait, is he...?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Moncho on March 05, 2012, 10:35:33 pm
and would it be possible to know what percentage of those is from loomed/nonloomed weapons?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Lizard_man on March 05, 2012, 10:40:09 pm
When are those stats taken from?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: cmp on March 05, 2012, 11:24:11 pm
From about a month ago to today.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 05, 2012, 11:40:28 pm
Thomek and his lobbying threads :shock:... If you were thinking about buffing katana you failed this time :D. You are good admin, but I can't stop being amazed by your ability to get people dividing in two groups and arguing about game balance... No one ever sees it coming... Well played ninja.. Well played...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vibe on March 05, 2012, 11:41:32 pm
Quote from: Son Of Odin on March 05, 2012, 11:40:28 pm
Thomek and his lobbying threads :shock:... If you were thinking about buffing katana you failed this time :D. You are good admin, but I can't stop being amazed by your ability to get people dividing in two groups and arguing about game balance... No one ever sees it coming... Well played ninja.. Well played...

Why Thomek doesn't lobby at all dear SoO, where did you get that impression?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 05, 2012, 11:58:26 pm
Quote from: Vibe on March 05, 2012, 11:41:32 pm
Why Thomek doesn't lobby at all dear SoO, where did you get that impression?
Ehhehahaha! :D Nowhere... Nowhere at all..

Wow I think those statistics will bring long shitstorms nevertheless... Balance between pole & 2h is optimal now for what I feel. 2h will always have the advantage in 1vs1 and many other things. Poles have more variety and different weapons for many situations. Calling polearmers hiltslashers is just lame considering how many 2h are doing it.

1h maybe needs some love? Although when someone masters 1h build, he is annoyingly powerful. It's just not everyone's cup of tea I guess... 1h is absolutely the best for infantry commander because you don't need to be focused on manual blocking all the time.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Teeth on March 06, 2012, 12:07:03 am
Polearms are definitely the better weapon class as far as battle goes. This comes mostly from long 2h experience and then doing some polearming.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Nehvar on March 06, 2012, 12:38:35 am
Quote from: SgtTeeh on March 05, 2012, 04:50:26 pm
The fuck, my mind is completely fucked from multiple directions.

Heavy lance damage on foot, the hell?

Why are there so many horse crossbowmen on NA, doesn't it suck equus africanus asinus dick?

There are a lot but that number is probably mostly from one guy (ROHYPNOL).  Horsebows can be very effective if you're at his skill level.  I have no experience with the build so I can't say more than that as to why they're doing better than horse archers.

Quote
Why not the long twohanders NA? Although I knew this from the few times I've duelled on NA, only longswords and HBS.

I'm surprised by that number as well.  I run with a HBS 18/24 build but most of the two-handers I meet are using a Sword of War or a Danish Greatsword.  Since these numbers only encompass one month it could be due to a lot of the top two-handers goofing off this past gen.  I know of several skilled Danish users, in fact, that used other weapons this last gen.

Quote
Does NA actually know how to stab with 1h? So much long espadas.

Yes.  Our shielders are really dangerous with those murder-stabs too.

Quote
The katana 3rd and 2nd, really didnt see that coming.

Weaboos everywhere.  Not at all surprising considering the number of katana-toting spamurais I've run into lately.

Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 01:41:45 am
Lobbying.. Just for your information, I think Katana is perfect right now. If anyone think it's OP, please make a thread about it. This is also not about me not being able to handle greatswords, I have zero problems with that.

What I do have a problem with is the lack of variety of weapons used from our diverse armory.

Just take a look around you when you spawn on EU1. All 2h are wielding either danish or german greatsword. All polearmers are wielding a GLA.

It's that simple, and that's all I'm pointing out.

IT'S BORING.
IT'S A PITY SINCE WE HAVE SO MANY OTHER WEAPONS AVAILABLE.

Now, how to fix it, I don't have a great answer. I slight nerf in damage (1 or 2 points)  together with a much more agressive price curve regarding weapon length would be a start. I'm weary of a speed nerf since they are already quite slow weapons. (Perhaps a small speed increase would even be in place if one nerfed the damage) IMO since a 2h or pole is all you really need, those weapons could be priced much higher. If you wish to wear heavy armor, grab a longsword. There is currently no price-dilemma for greatsword-users (like all other classes have) as the optimum armor + build in the EU metagame is already very much affordable.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Kato on March 06, 2012, 01:56:18 am
Yes, but nerf top weapons is not solution, maybe little buff for midtier swords would be nice.

GLA on other hand is one of the worse of top polearms and we on EU can be only happy, that people use it for style instead of using lame weapons like bardiches, broken weapons like fauchard and glaive or all around better poleaxes.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 02:24:06 am
GLA is not crap at all.

It's used for HILTSLASHING, since at a certain threshold of PS it almost never glances with it's 45 damage unloomed. Add in polestagger. The damage enables dependable hiltslashing at a much lower PS level than other weapons (and thus more agi, wpf and athletics facilitating backpedaling and back-jump-slashing while hilt-slashing polestagger...)

That axe should be looked into IMO.

One could argue the German Poleaxe is better, but it requires 1 more PS to get to the same damage lvl and is 1 point slower. The only thing it has on the GLA is 6 more range and stab damage.

About nerfing/pricing not being the solution..
The alternative to nerfing the top weps is to buff ALL the non-top weapons, including 1h and pole. It's just a crazy amount of work and the likelyhood of breaking balance is gigantic. Would be fun and create lots of whining for us whiners to whine about in the forums though.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 06, 2012, 02:27:35 am
Yeah I think katana is fine now too :). Well I see many Danish Great Swords around, but it doesn't bother me one bit. Maybe it's because it is one of the most loomed items in the game if not the most loomed one. Nerfing the great swords would suck because it also hurts the balance between 2h and pole. When it comes to polearms, I see a great variety. People use many different ones and yes GLA has it's dedicated users. I remember it being loomed in big numbers as well (just look at the marketplace).

I don't just see the problem here. I use long war axe on foot because it's a decent weapon and it fits my style well. If it wasn't for looks, I would probably use long hafted blade (I could use it on horseback in a tight situation as well), glaive, great long barchide or some poleaxe. Not to speak about warspear and other cheaper ones. All great weapons and have their purposes and playstyles. Some weapons are more popular than other ones but isn't it fun to play with some not so used one and kick ass just because you can?

Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 02:24:06 am
(click to show/hide)

Oh shut up about hiltslashes... 2h player cannot pull that crap on polearmers in the forums. l2p

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 02:32:20 am
Quote from: Son Of Odin on March 06, 2012, 02:27:35 am
[troll]ps. I want katana to have new stats since all the ninjas around seem to use it. I want to see more variety in ninjas and them using other weapons too.[/troll]

lol.. ok so I am a bit guilty of that situation myself. They are allowed to use other weapons.. Just not anything better than katana. And hafted blades of course.

About hiltslashing, yes everyone is doing it, me too, and that's fine. Nothing to be done about it. Just the GLA is perfect for it with it's insane damage coupled with decent speed and range.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 06, 2012, 02:35:55 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 02:32:20 am
About hiltslashing, yes everyone is doing it, me too, and that's fine. Nothing to be done about it. Just the GLA is perfect for it with it's insane damage coupled with decent speed and range.
Just like any top tier 2h weapon...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 02:39:18 am
No, not just any top tier 2h. The danish has 40 base damage and requires about 11% more damage composed of PS/STR/wpf to match the GLA.

I have a fix suggestion for the GLA.

Step 1.
Ask Tor what the optimum build for a hiltslashing GLA user is. Note down the STR requirement.

Step 2.
Make the STR requirement for GLA that number +1

(I have a feeling you would end up with a number like 19)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 06, 2012, 02:53:46 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 02:39:18 am
(click to show/hide)

Seems like someone got mad after Tor kicked his ass? Your suggestion is probably a sad trolling attempt considering you suggest number 19 which is more than any polearm has now and for the fact you basically want to nerf only one player.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 04:01:47 am
Bring some arguments Odin.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: RandomDude on March 06, 2012, 04:08:30 am
Well personally im amazed that more 2h dont use the flamberge. It's such an epic weapon in so many ways. It's the only weapon with an awesome wavy blade. Highest cut dmg. Longest right swing reach. One of the few weapons to use polearm and 2h animations (i think?).

Sure there's about 1 million cons to go against it but cmon... it's the only real mans sword around.

I think people just see 2hs owning with greatswords and automatically think it's the best weapon to use. For me you have to base the weapon on your build and vice versa.

No point having a short reach weapon if you're too slow to hit people because they move in and out of your attack range too fast. Stuff like that.

If there should be equalness in weapons ( to add variety) then the prices and upkeep should be the same for the different "tiers" of weapons. Not sure how else to diversify the weapon usage. The fact is that a lot of people have big bank accounts and upkeep isnt an issue for them so why penalise the poorer/newer(?) players.

Also there's plenty of good 2h weapons that people with 1/2 a brain use (and are also good players). Mauls for anti-pikes/1h. Morningstars for anti armour. They get used sometimes but greatswords can pierce armour too so a lot of people just stick with them.

Shortened military scythe is a great weapon. I use it because it's used by the antarian faction in the SoD mod, but you can kill with it as easily as a greatsword. Plenty of times I get a good K/D with it - as often as with flamberge.

It's cheap, good dmg, not as long or fast or good stab (it uses polearm animation) as greatsword, but it's a good weapon. In battle or siege most weapons are viable, it's when you want to duel someone or you're in a 1v1 situation, that you want a greatsword.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 06, 2012, 04:50:48 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 04:01:47 am
Bring some arguments Odin.
So your suggestion really is to ask Tor what build he uses and balance the great long axe after that? I think I don't need to have any arguments with you about that part.

On a more serious note: I feel that having GLA requirement set to 19 str would be really harsh move. Then the only weapon having higher strenght requirement would be the 2h great maul which is 20 str. GLA users would have to use only certain builds and it doesn't seem fair to me when we think of the qualities this weapon has. There is so many other polearms that are better and wouldn't need that much str to be used. Using GLA wouldn't be a viable option anymore especially considering it's price. Then the other thing is that increasing the requirements with 3 str points is pretty big change for people who have heirloomed this certain item and maybe sticking up with their build to get higher levels. GLA is pretty cheap loom in the market and after nerf, it would be ridicilously cheap so getting another weapon to replace it would be hard.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 06, 2012, 06:02:50 am
Katana is OP, I have a fix suggestion for it. Make it +4 str, it's too good at hiltslashing. I asked a Ninja who hiltslashed me what the optimum build was and that's what he said, needs to be +4 str req.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Tor! on March 06, 2012, 01:35:14 pm
Heh, interesting read this was.

Since I started playing this mod, I've basicly only been using the GLA. It's been nerfed a couple of times over the last year, to the point of where the cheaper axe (long war axe) is now a better choice. People complain about the GLA, but I'm gonna tell you now: be thankful more people have not "discovered" the poleaxe and glaive. The two ultimate 4 direction polearms. Does anyone disagree? -->
(click to show/hide)

What is all this fuss about hiltslashing? Yeah, I practiced it, others do, and they start to use it. The GLA is not good at hiltslashing, the player your facing is. When I play on my HBS character, I can hiltslash more than I could ever dream of with my slow axe. I can kill people by being faster and actually "outskill" them, and not in the "who gets bored first" fashion of a GLA fight. So much that I've seriously considered respeccing to a longsword build, but the axe carries to much nostalgia for me at this point.

The statistics show that the DGS, longspears and GLA's are a common sight on EU1. You cant only blaim that they are good weapons, since there are other, less used and much more potent weapons available out there. (Long spear is always powerful though) Some of the high usage could surely be blamed people trying to copy a player they like or are impressed with. What about all the Phyrex clones back in the day? Or people seeing Cooties ripping up 20 people by himself with a DGS, well, I wouldnt be surprised if some players picked up after him. Take Chase and Gurnisson for instance. They were ripping up everything with awlpike / long awlpike, and suddenly it seemed like every other polearmer had one. When I started I was happy when I saw another GLA user, since they were far in between.
(click to show/hide)

TL;DR - players and their weapons change all the time, stop nerfing, start buffing the lower tiers if you want to see a increased variety on the battlefield. A slight speed increase on all weapons wouldnt be to bad either, but we all know that's never gonna happen. Annoyed by hiltslashes? Try to do the same yourself, see how "easy" it is with a 91 speed weapon, and learn to spot it.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Wookimonsta on March 06, 2012, 01:49:27 pm
i would use a spamberge, but i only got 15 str.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on March 06, 2012, 02:14:24 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on March 05, 2012, 04:50:26 pm
Heavy lance damage on foot, the hell?

when your dehorsed you got to do what you got to do

anyway wanted to ask are those statistics include damage done to horses ? or only players ?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Camaris on March 06, 2012, 03:06:15 pm
Could you pls post the stats of the EU-Siege-Server CMP.
I guess one of the Top-2h will be Great Maul there... perhaps even Number 1 on Siege.

Would love to see difference Siege / Battle.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Paul on March 06, 2012, 03:12:57 pm
Danish tops siege too with twice as much damage done as the 2nd two-hander.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 06, 2012, 04:16:01 pm
Thomek dissappeared like a ninja? :wink: I would suggest you making a non ninja polearmer alt, with Tor's build and tips. Then buying a gla and trying to hiltslash it. I think it is not that easy because I see only one man really pulling it off.

Hehe I used GLA too, when I threw that crappy ass bec away. There wasn't too many using it at the time but after some months those axes started to be everywhere. I blame tor- fanboys. I'm happy I traded to that smaller axe though. It is not nearly as used and I still don't see loomed ones too often ingame...

And for the record, I don't hiltslash. Simply because I can't and cba to learn it. Lol and I'm not even the one who is mad about the subject :D.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 06, 2012, 04:33:58 pm
NA wise, GLA is just another pole arm you see occasionally. We like pole-axes and war spears WAY more. Nothing wrong with it, it's soooo short, who cares?
This last month all the poleaxe fotm stopped, but a few months ago the top pole listed would have been the poleaxe. A great weapon...
Quote
Polearm
---
Heavy Lance (mounted)              3,965,363  31.22%
Long Spear                         880,724    6.93%
Pike                               632,020    4.98%
War Spear                          503,263    3.96%
Bec de Corbin                      479,231    3.77%
Awlpike                            427,092    3.36%
Long Hafted Blade                  392,029    3.09%
Elegant Poleaxe                    320,802    2.53%
Lance (mounted)                    315,671    2.49%
Glaive                             307,439    2.42%
Bamboo Spear                       288,330    2.27%
Heavy Lance                        285,426    2.25%
Swiss Halberd                      284,794    2.24%
Great Long Axe                     268,703    2.12% 
13th on the list for NA.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: BlackMilk on March 06, 2012, 04:34:17 pm
Quote from: Son Of Odin on March 06, 2012, 04:16:01 pm
Thomek dissappeared like a ninja? :wink: I would suggest you making a non ninja polearmer alt, with Tor's build and tips. Then buying a gla and trying to hiltslash it. I think it is not that easy because I see only one man really pulling it off.

Hehe I used GLA too, when I threw that crappy ass bec away. There wasn't too many using it at the time but after some months those axes started to be everywhere. I blame tor- fanboys. I'm happy I traded to that smaller axe though. It is not nearly as used and I still don't see loomed ones too often ingame...

And for the record, I don't hiltslash. Simply because I can't and cba to learn it. Lol and I'm not even the one who is mad about the subject :D.
I think it's the most easiest thing ever.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 06, 2012, 04:44:09 pm
Quote from: BlackMilk on March 06, 2012, 04:34:17 pm
I think it's the most easiest thing ever.
Nevertheless its not really my style...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Zandieer on March 06, 2012, 05:06:25 pm
Sorry to interrupt your fun, guys, but... I've heard the word "hiltslash" many, many times before, but.... Could someone info me what it tchenically is?  :oops:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Dezilagel on March 06, 2012, 05:11:29 pm
It's something that 90% of players claim to be able to do but which only about 2.56% actually can.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 06, 2012, 05:17:44 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on March 06, 2012, 05:11:29 pm
It's something that 90% of players claim to be able to do but which only about 2.56% actually can.

Exactly. The right slash is excellent for hiltslashing though, true. But the left slash has super bitchy sweetspots which compensates.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 05:29:46 pm
Hiltslashing is basically ye old "Turning into the swing" so your animation hits sooner, making you able to hit faster.

Some people have learned to do this perfectly at the sweetest of sweetspots, so they won't glance.

At least that's my understanding of it..
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 06, 2012, 05:42:45 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 05:29:46 pm
Hiltslashing is basically ye old "Turning into the swing" so your animation hits sooner, making you able to hit faster.

Some people have learned to do this perfectly at the sweetest of sweetspots, so they won't glance.

At least that's my understanding of it..
Isn't it more like: move forward and the direction you are hitting, looking a bit downwards to the ground and slashing while you pass your opponent from really close range? The swing hits perfectly and doesn't glance but your opponent might be thinking it is going to glance or that he is going to hit first. The mouse movement isn't that big of a deal, but the combination of all these things.

Moving your mouse with your hit isn't hiltslashing in my opinion. It is simply "screen manipulation" or something and I don't see why that is being bitched about.

EDIT: I might be completely wrong here but that is what I picture when someone says the word hiltslashing.
EDIT2: Also good hiltslashers are able to "hide" the animations pretty well when they change the attack direction from left to right or right to left.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on March 06, 2012, 05:58:21 pm
Do the 1h solution. Short weapons deal high damage. Long ones are slower and deal basic damage (about longsword damage) and reduce the pierce to 20, there is no way in hell someone can thrust a weapon that long and do lots of damage. The stance is horrible, no hips supporting the attack.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: ThePoopy on March 06, 2012, 06:40:01 pm
2h stab looks like you dodge a side swing that is hit for your stomach, then rotate yourself 45 degree forward
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Teeth on March 06, 2012, 08:45:09 pm
Hiltslashing in general could mean hitting very early in the animation by looking next to your opponent when you swing, pretty much hitting them with the hilt. However I think most people refer to a specific left-right swing combination.

It's done when facehugging and moving into your opponent. You do a leftswing, they block it, then you do a right swing while moving your camera with the swing. If you do the camera movement and footwork properly you'll do a second attack before your opponent barely starts his attack. It's basically just a very fast follow up attack, due to hitting your opponent very early in the animation, doing damage with the hilt. Its possible with both polearms and 2h. Think its pretty much the same doing it with both classes, its only the speed rating that makes it easier or harder.

They tried making hiltslashing impossible by adding a slight delay to do a second attack after your swing gets blocked, but its still possible. I was able to do it quite well, somehow couldn't do it anymore later on. After this change I can only do it with katanas and longswords. Like Dezilagel said, the amount of players that can pull this off confidently and properly are quite limited.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Zandieer on March 06, 2012, 10:10:24 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on March 06, 2012, 08:45:09 pm
Hiltslashing in general could mean hitting very early in the animation by looking next to your opponent when you swing, pretty much hitting them with the hilt. However I think most people refer to a specific left-right swing combination.

It's done when facehugging and moving into your opponent. You do a leftswing, they block it, then you do a right swing while moving your camera with the swing. If you do the camera movement and footwork properly you'll do a second attack before your opponent barely starts his attack. It's basically just a very fast follow up attack, due to hitting your opponent very early in the animation, doing damage with the hilt. Its possible with both polearms and 2h. Think its pretty much the same doing it with both classes, its only the speed rating that makes it easier or harder.

They tried making hiltslashing impossible by adding a slight delay to do a second attack after your block gets hit, but its still possible. I was able to do it quite well, somehow couldn't do it anymore later on. After this change I can only do it with katanas and longswords. Like Dezilagel said, the amount of players that can pull this off confidently and properly are quite limited.
Ah, I see now :wink: Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 06, 2012, 11:06:11 pm
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 02:32:20 am
lol.. ok so I am a bit guilty of that situation myself. They are allowed to use other weapons.. Just not anything better than katana. And hafted blades of course.

About hiltslashing, yes everyone is doing it, me too, and that's fine. Nothing to be done about it. Just the GLA is perfect for it with it's insane damage coupled with decent speed and range.

Nope, it's not you. You're barely playing as twohander lately. I guess you like throwing a bit too much.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 06, 2012, 11:09:08 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on March 06, 2012, 05:11:29 pm
It's something that 90% of players claim to be able to do but which only about 2.56% actually can.

I can do it but only when I'm using MW Katana.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Siiem on March 07, 2012, 12:31:23 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 06, 2012, 05:29:46 pm
Hiltslashing is basically ye old "Turning into the swing" so your animation hits sooner, making you able to hit faster.

Some people have learned to do this perfectly at the sweetest of sweetspots, so they won't glance.

At least that's my understanding of it..

Turning helps nothing.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Torben on March 07, 2012, 12:40:44 am
10 pages in a day.  haha.

GLA is far from the best or most used pole
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Siiem on March 07, 2012, 01:14:07 am
Quote from: Torben on March 07, 2012, 12:40:44 am
GLA is far from the best or most used pole

Irrefutable evidence. Buff GLA now.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: cmp on March 07, 2012, 01:40:26 am
Hiltslash is possible because of an oversight in TW's sweetspot code. Thrusts and overswings use animation progress to determine the effectiveness of the attack, while left and right swing use angle between attacker and defender. It makes some sense, but it also makes hiltslashes possible.
Adding a progress check in addition to the angle check should remove the ability to hitlslash completely.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Torben on March 07, 2012, 01:42:37 am
Quote from: Siiem on March 07, 2012, 01:14:07 am
Irrefutable evidence. Buff GLA now.

right after buffing courser speed ofc
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Casimir on March 07, 2012, 02:29:48 am
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on March 07, 2012, 01:40:26 am
Hiltslash is possible because of an oversight in TW's sweetspot code. Thrusts and overswings use animation progress to determine the effectiveness of the attack, while left and right swing use angle between attacker and defender. It makes some sense, but it also makes hiltslashes possible.
Adding a progress check in addition to the angle check should remove the ability to hitlslash completely.

WSE allows this or not?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Wraist on March 07, 2012, 03:50:44 am
Quote from: Casimir on March 07, 2012, 02:29:48 am
WSE allows this or not?

Also, is this something you're planning on adding eventually?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 07, 2012, 06:16:54 am
Quote from: Siiem on March 07, 2012, 12:31:23 am
Turning helps nothing.
Actually it does.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 07, 2012, 06:22:09 am
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on March 07, 2012, 01:40:26 am
Hiltslash is possible because of an oversight in TW's sweetspot code. Thrusts and overswings use animation progress to determine the effectiveness of the attack, while left and right swing use angle between attacker and defender. It makes some sense, but it also makes hiltslashes possible.
Adding a progress check in addition to the angle check should remove the ability to hitlslash completely.
It's so great being able to do damage when my hilt hits somebody before the sword does though, isn't it? At least there are easy simple counters to it.

And to the people regarding turning into the attack for the hiltslash, yeah you turn into it after the attack has been started, but it is the stepping with the attack that matters. If you turn into it before/ as you start the swing then it'll glance. If you do it correctly you'll deal damage before your sword even hits the enemy, although it should DO NOTHING AND GLANCE HORRIBLY.

I posted this picture like a year ago, but here:
(click to show/hide)
Hey i think we're getting off topic.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: BlackMilk on March 07, 2012, 07:16:54 am
Quote from: cmpxchg8b on March 07, 2012, 01:40:26 am
Hiltslash is possible because of an oversight in TW's sweetspot code. Thrusts and overswings use animation progress to determine the effectiveness of the attack, while left and right swing use angle between attacker and defender. It makes some sense, but it also makes hiltslashes possible.
Adding a progress check in addition to the angle check should remove the ability to hitlslash completely.
Keep it, please. Duels are boring enough already
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: zagibu on March 07, 2012, 08:45:23 am
Quote from: BlackMilk on March 07, 2012, 07:16:54 am
Keep it, please. Duels are boring enough already

Yeah, it's good that this game is balanced around duels, because duels are the core of the game, right?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: BlackMilk on March 07, 2012, 10:40:11 am
You think that hiltslashing is a balance problem? lmao
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 07, 2012, 10:57:39 am
Hiltslashing is one of the only remaining things that still go through the average person's block somewhat reliably.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 07, 2012, 11:02:01 am
Quote from: Xant on March 07, 2012, 10:57:39 am
Hiltslashing is one of the only remaining things that still go through the average person's block somewhat reliably.
Us Top 1% duelists need to stay on top, keep the 99% down.

Yeah, don't you hate it when people you're trying to kill can all block? Fighting multiple people is sometimes easier since most people can 1v1 block at least 5 times; so you fight them 1 v 3.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Spawny on March 07, 2012, 11:25:38 am
Quote from: Xant on March 07, 2012, 10:57:39 am
Hiltslashing is one of the only remaining things that still go through the average person's block somewhat reliably.

Start practising chamber blocking, that will get most people too. Especially in battle/siege, where most people are swinging in the same directions over and over it's fairly easy to do.

Kickslashing is something that get's me most of the time and I suck at doing it myself.

Couching goes through blocks and so does ranged fire (unless vs shielders ofc). Downside is you can't play as a 2h infantry guy for that :P
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 07, 2012, 11:35:15 am
Quote from: Spawny on March 07, 2012, 11:25:38 am
Start practising chamber blocking, that will get most people too.
Xant is unbelievably skilled at sucking. and I believe he cant edit his posts and he is an annoying lying bundle of sticks who is incapable of speaking truth.
And what I said is true as it always is
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 07, 2012, 11:39:24 am
Quote from: Spawny on March 07, 2012, 11:25:38 am
Start practising chamber blocking, that will get most people too. Especially in battle/siege, where most people are swinging in the same directions over and over it's fairly easy to do.

AHAHAHAHAHAA. You're about a year and two months late for telling people chambering is effective.  What logen said is untrue and logen is also a bundle of sticks who thinks I can't edit my posts as well
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Teeth on March 07, 2012, 11:57:07 am
Quote from: Spawny on March 07, 2012, 11:25:38 am
Start practising chamber blocking, that will get most people too. Especially in battle/siege, where most people are swinging in the same directions over and over it's fairly easy to do.

Kickslashing is something that get's me most of the time and I suck at doing it myself.

Couching goes through blocks and so does ranged fire (unless vs shielders ofc). Downside is you can't play as a 2h infantry guy for that :P
Not too impressed by the usefulness of chamber blocking, became quite the chamber whore recently but it mostly just gets blocked. Although now as a 1h chambering with the leftswing is pretty sweet.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vibe on March 07, 2012, 11:59:32 am
Most of the decent players in cRPG are able to block chambers, not so much in native though.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 07, 2012, 12:20:34 pm
Hiltslashing and chambering, by our powers combined, all feinters auto die.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Mlekce on March 07, 2012, 01:08:14 pm
backpedaling and long reach compensate speed,so danish sword/glaive is actualy faster then some shorter weapons.
I quit 1h because i am faster then polearms,but their reach remove speed factor.
There is too many heavy armor users in game,good thing is that i am cav so i don't gve a fuck when i backstab them,but when you play as inf that can be annoying.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Angantyr on March 07, 2012, 02:12:32 pm
Let's not be too unmindful of the probably many who choose the Danish or German for looks, RP or other reasons and not just stats. I have personally always preferred speed and always used the Two-handed Sword for duels in Native (and actually found the GS to be a bit cartoonish, too mainstream and anachronistic in comparison to other WB weaponry), where as good as everyone uses the GS in competitions, but in cRPG I can use a sword made by my forefathers and which I like the appearance of, and which also fits the timeframe of other armaments in the module. Others, many I guess, simply like to choose the biggest and most hard-hitting sword they can find, and many are accustomed to Zweihanders from pop-culture, which I think is perhaps the main reason for the prevalence of these swords on the servers.

And yes, as Tor touches upon, many have probably also been inspired by other good 2handers, especially in the early cRPG where there were many old duellists from Native using GS (and 2h lolstabbing was pretty ridiculous back then) with a lot of fighting experience in a time where the majority of the cRPG population had only just stumbled upon cRPG/WB.

That said, and though the weapon is expensive it definitely has great stats and I wouldn't mind them being slightly adjusted if other weapons were balanced accordingly, like the poleaxes which I personally find to be the strongest, all-round infantry choice in cRPG. I just don't think it will decrease their number as much as we may like.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Phyrex on March 07, 2012, 02:57:31 pm
Most people wants to be the hero and he does not wield a spear.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on March 07, 2012, 06:05:15 pm
My heroes are 1h shielders.....so do whatever code ya can so they are number one close quarters weapon. As they should be.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 07, 2012, 06:18:08 pm
Quote from: Phyrex on March 07, 2012, 02:57:31 pm
Most people wants to be the hero and he does not wield a spear.

Tell that to the asian spear heroes!
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: [ptx] on March 07, 2012, 06:25:51 pm
What? I think there are actually more spear-wielding heroes in european folklore than big 2h-sword wielding ones...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 07, 2012, 07:33:46 pm
Achilles won against Hector because of paulstagger...

Hector's short 1H sword couldn't hiltslash, and his build was balanced level 30.

Achilles, on the other hand, was bathed in Holy water of Pre-upkeep (mother chadzis held him by the ankle) so he had level 45 balanced build (30STR/27AGI). He probably used macrofeints and autoblock as well. And he was GAY!

True medieval heroes used swords, those Asian queer monks and ancient heroes of Gaygreece and bundle of sticksrome aren't relevant to this discussion.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 07, 2012, 07:40:18 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 07, 2012, 07:33:46 pm
(click to show/hide)
Real heroes rode horses. End of discussion.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: [ptx] on March 07, 2012, 07:43:41 pm
Also excluding all the spear-wielding european people? (such as vikings, for example)

I honestly don't really recall a single true 2h hero. 1h/shield, 1h/noshield, a lot of spear/shield or noshield and a few polearmers, maybe.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Thomek on March 07, 2012, 07:51:26 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 07, 2012, 07:57:03 pm
If Arnold is the hero, then all 2hers should be running around naked with 36 strength and -3 athletics
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Dezilagel on March 07, 2012, 07:59:19 pm
And +100 fist dmg vs. camels
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Casimir on March 07, 2012, 08:14:09 pm
Quote from: Son Of Odin on March 07, 2012, 07:40:18 pm
Real heroes rode horses. End of discussion.

*cough* 2h cav *cough*
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Siiem on March 07, 2012, 08:20:38 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 07, 2012, 06:18:08 pm
Tell that to the asian spear heroes!

There are no asian heroes, they are all yellow bellied cowards.

pun intended
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Herra Hakkarainen on March 07, 2012, 08:43:31 pm
Quote from: Siiem on March 07, 2012, 08:20:38 pm
There are no asian heroes, they are all yellow bellied cowards.

pun intended
Even their eyes are kinda fucked up. I wonder if they even see anything...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 07, 2012, 09:59:24 pm
Quote from: Casimir on March 07, 2012, 08:14:09 pm
*cough* 2h cav *cough*
Yeah but remember couching tournaments dude! :mrgreen: Hehe but yes cav = heroes
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vibe on March 07, 2012, 09:59:56 pm
You want to see a real hero? Take a look at me.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: BlackMilk on March 07, 2012, 10:07:20 pm
Where the hell is Olwen when you need him?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on March 07, 2012, 10:16:46 pm
Those arent op.

Glaive is op.

Nerf glaive.

That is all.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Phyrex on March 07, 2012, 10:46:47 pm
Let's face it guys, the majority don't know or really care if there were real "heroes" wielding spears.

Think of the word "Medieval" and the thing that will most likely pop up first in your head is a plate-wearing knight wielding the biggest sword around, perhaps mounted on-top of a warhorse with the background of a castle or some combination of it.

All I'm saying is, popular culture with the sword burnt into most people's mind is a contributing factor for great sword popularity. At least it did for me, back in the days. :P

Massive swords are for the elite knights, spears are for the lowly peasants. Which weapon do you think most people would chose?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Nehvar on March 07, 2012, 10:48:57 pm
Swords can also cut through metal armor with ease.  I learned that from Hollywood.  There is no reason to not use one!
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2012, 10:53:17 pm
IIRC Knights used Poleaxes and Halfswording when plate armour came into play.

Why mess around with a sword that bounces, When you can pierce through, or use the Axe as a hammer, or tackle your opponent to get him to the ground? Halfswording is a working technique but en-masse it's much easier to use something else.

Swords are overrated, overgloried stuff thanks to popular culture.

Quote from: Phyrex on March 07, 2012, 10:46:47 pm
Massive swords are for the elite knights, spears are for the lowly peasants. Which weapon do you think most people would chose?

Sure, only nobles had rights to wear such weapons, but most of the time it was only a status symbol.
They picked something else for a fight, unless they had to fight peasants.

I'd pick something else than a sword if I'd have the fighting knowledge, against a fully plated opponent.
Just my 2cents though, that's what I think. Why all the trouble with a sword, if you can just whack somebody to death?

Quote from: Nehvar on March 07, 2012, 10:48:57 pm
Swords can also cut through metal armor with ease.  I learned that from Hollywood.  There is no reason to not use one!

lol  :lol:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: MrShine on March 07, 2012, 10:55:47 pm
Quote from: Christo on March 07, 2012, 10:53:17 pm
Swords are overrated, overgloried stuff thanks to popular culture.

Someone sounds like they have sword envy!  :twisted:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2012, 10:56:52 pm
Quote from: MrShine on March 07, 2012, 10:55:47 pm
Someone sounds like they have sword envy!  :twisted:

I dislike swords in general, don't know why.
Maybe because they're too overused.  :P

Still, what I said there is at least somewhat true.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Casimir on March 07, 2012, 10:57:05 pm
Don't you halfsword with a two handed sword though Christo? meaning the sword is still an effective weapon against plate?
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 07, 2012, 10:57:56 pm
yeah definetly poleaxes > sword against plate armored opponent. Any day...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2012, 10:59:21 pm
Quote from: Casimir on March 07, 2012, 10:57:05 pm
Don't you halfsword with a two handed sword though Christo? meaning the sword is still an effective weapon against plate?

I've mentioned that.

Still, fighting like that takes lots of practice, you need to aim for weaker points, while somebody with said Poleaxe could mess you up easily.

Not saying that swords are ineffective against armour like that, but that it takes more time and precision to do so.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Teeth on March 07, 2012, 11:08:59 pm
Quote from: Phyrex on March 07, 2012, 10:46:47 pm
Let's face it guys, the majority don't know or really care if there were real "heroes" wielding spears.

Think of the word "Medieval" and the thing that will most likely pop up first in your head is a plate-wearing knight wielding the biggest sword around, perhaps mounted on-top of a warhorse with the background of a castle or some combination of it.

All I'm saying is, popular culture with the sword burnt into most people's mind is a contributing factor for great sword popularity. At least it did for me, back in the days. :P

Massive swords are for the elite knights, spears are for the lowly peasants. Which weapon do you think most people would chose?
Spears are fucking awesome, too bad they are portrayed so shitty in this game. Spear and shield is fucking awesome too, also portrayed badly in this game.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2012, 11:10:59 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on March 07, 2012, 11:08:59 pm
Spear and shield is fucking awesome too, also portrayed badly in this game.

This.

Most used equipment together on the battlefield, for hundreds of years.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 07, 2012, 11:19:54 pm
Yes, and suddenly everyone was super interested. If you read Phyrex's post real carefully, he wasn't arguing it from a realism point of view. In fact, he said that the image is thanks to popular culture.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: isatis on March 07, 2012, 11:30:37 pm
only one true thing to do : buff goedendag

oh and buff the poor persion war axe...

tadam!

Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 07, 2012, 11:32:05 pm
Having played with many polearms, I believe the glaive is the most retarded one.

it has an insane range(160) compared to its damage(39 cut) and speed(90). If im not mistaken its the longest 4 directional swing polearm?
It also has nice fast animations and you can feintspam like a bitch while backpedalling!

but it also has it's cons, it gets stuck against walls and teammates, and that annoys the fucks out of me
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Moncho on March 07, 2012, 11:46:48 pm
Quote from: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 07, 2012, 11:32:05 pm
Having played with many polearms, I believe the glaive is the most retarded one.

it has an insane range(160) compared to its damage(39 cut) and speed(90). If im not mistaken its the longest 4 directional swing polearm?
It also has nice fast animations and you can feintspam like a bitch while backpedalling!

but it also has it's cons, it gets stuck against walls and teammates, and that annoys the fucks out of me
Scythe and the new one (fauchard i think)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2012, 11:52:40 pm
Fauchard is fine, I'd say.

It has so low damage, I needed 2x the usual hits with my ps8 build against people.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 07, 2012, 11:56:50 pm
Quote from: isatis on March 07, 2012, 11:30:37 pm
only one true thing to do : buff goedendag

You can buff ugly weapons and armor but that won't raise their popularity greatly.

Bar Mace was really popular before it lost CT but people used swords more than Bar Mace.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Logen on March 08, 2012, 12:00:19 am
Quote from: Xant on March 07, 2012, 11:19:54 pm
read post real carefully
oh come on now xant, ppl dont do that.
asking them do it is simply outrageous.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Siiem on March 08, 2012, 02:42:49 am
Fuck spears.

The true item of a warrior that is always overlooked by popular culture and hollywood is the shield. Shields = the mark of a warrior, but I guess it does not look fancy enough.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: v/onMega on March 08, 2012, 11:34:24 am
You cant say spears are sexy...nope.
Esthetic and engineering point of view, they are designed for a certain purpose, which they surely fullfill  good....but thats it.

They look cheap, unfancy, purposebuild.

Swords and some polearms just instantly give you the feeling that there is knowhow, knowledge needed to produce them. Besides that, they look powerful.

This only accounts for few polearms though,
Poleaxes (PA, EPA,GPA).


GLA for example is ugly, purposebuild but atleast looks powerful.
Its cut damage is awesome, its lil short with low agi, the stab actually is bad.

It has great pros and great cons.
German Poleaxe is superior in every way, for me atleast.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vibe on March 08, 2012, 11:54:23 am
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ZULU USE SPEAR

IF WOMAN NOT MAKE GOOD CHILD ZULU PUT SPEAR IN WOMAN

IF WOMAN MAKE GOOD CHILD ZULU PUT FLESH SPEAR IN WOMAN
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: bredeus on March 08, 2012, 12:00:36 pm
Isee Vibe that you are proud of being Zulu ;)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on March 08, 2012, 05:58:07 pm
Quote from: Phyrex on March 07, 2012, 10:46:47 pm
Let's face it guys, the majority don't know or really care if there were real "heroes" wielding spears.

Think of the word "Medieval" and the thing that will most likely pop up first in your head is a plate-wearing knight wielding the biggest sword around, perhaps mounted on-top of a warhorse with the background of a castle or some combination of it.

All I'm saying is, popular culture with the sword burnt into most people's mind is a contributing factor for great sword popularity. At least it did for me, back in the days. :P

Massive swords are for the elite knights, spears are for the lowly peasants. Which weapon do you think most people would chose?


Flange mace or morning star.....knight killers in irl.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Phyrex on March 09, 2012, 12:33:56 pm
Out of 15 people, Xant, of all people, is the only one who gets it.

I give up.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Aleta on March 09, 2012, 12:34:02 pm
I think the shorter weapons should get a speed buff instead of giving the long ones a damage nerf. It is very heavy to swing a long weapon/item, while a shorter weapon is lighter to swing. Therefore the speed of the shorter ones should be increased to reflect this. That way the ~125 length weapons will no longer dominate, and people who want speed will go for shorter, and those who want length has to live with less speed.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Teeth on March 09, 2012, 02:29:28 pm
Quote from: Phyrex on March 09, 2012, 12:33:56 pm
Out of 15 people, Xant, of all people, is the only one who gets it.

I give up.
I got it, I just disagree personally. Despite all the efforts from popular culture to portray swords as the 'badass hero weapon', I am a great fan of spears and spears would be my first pick as a weapon if they werent portrayed so shitty in this game.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Zerran on March 09, 2012, 04:13:13 pm
Quote from: Siiem on March 08, 2012, 02:42:49 am
Fuck spears.

The true item of a warrior that is always overlooked by popular culture and hollywood is the shield. Shields = the mark of a warrior, but I guess it does not look fancy enough.

Ya, unfortunately in popular culture the hero NEVER uses a shield. Not really sure why, but it's always a two handed sword. The random other characters that generally end up dying amusing deaths are the ones with shields.

Personally I'd like to see a hero that uses a Pike and does ballet jumps with it while fighting!  :lol:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 09, 2012, 05:28:23 pm
Achilles used a shield and is one of the most bad ass popular culture heroes ever?!
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: MrShine on March 09, 2012, 05:48:59 pm
Quote from: Zerran on March 09, 2012, 04:13:13 pm
Ya, unfortunately in popular culture the hero NEVER uses a shield.

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Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 09, 2012, 05:54:15 pm
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Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 09, 2012, 05:57:07 pm
Quote from: Zerran on March 09, 2012, 04:13:13 pm
Ya, unfortunately in popular culture the hero NEVER uses a shield. Not really sure why, but it's always a two handed sword. The random other characters that generally end up dying amusing deaths are the ones with shields.

Personally I'd like to see a hero that uses a Pike and does ballet jumps with it while fighting!  :lol:

Not exactly ballet jumps, but Red Cliff is by far my favorite "war" movie ever.  Wish they made some movies about European history and battles in the same style as Red Cliff....if you haven't seen it, I'd recommend it.  Most of the "heroes" wield spears and pike type weapons.


Towards the end of the movie Zhao Yun pole vaults over a wall with a long spear.

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Also, in this horse duel with lances the riders do some pretty acrobatic movements (bracing spears off the ground):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj_jB-bp7es

Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Zerran on March 09, 2012, 06:18:51 pm
Well I wouldn't really call Achilles popular culture. Plenty of ancient stories have heroes with shields, it's the modern Hollywood ones that lack them.

Ok and yes, I forgot about Captain America.  :lol:

I actually got Red Cliff recently, been meaning to watch it but haven't gotten around to it yet.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Casimir on March 09, 2012, 06:26:58 pm
Its a stella film, also i believe when referring to Achilles i guess Xant meant in Troy.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 09, 2012, 06:28:03 pm
Yes, Achilles in Troy. Spartans in 300..
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on March 09, 2012, 06:37:03 pm
another hero with shield:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 09, 2012, 06:41:28 pm
Quote from: SgtTeeh on March 09, 2012, 02:29:28 pm
I got it, I just disagree personally. Despite all the efforts from popular culture to portray swords as the 'badass hero weapon', I am a great fan of spears and spears would be my first pick as a weapon if they werent portrayed so shitty in this game.
Agreed, I've always loved spears, considers swords sorta lame TBH, I still use a spear/throwing lance, but I'd be willing to go pure-melee-spearman type of guy if they made spears better (=more fun) melee weapons.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Dezilagel on March 09, 2012, 06:44:51 pm
The fuck? War Spear is an AWESOME weapon!
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 09, 2012, 06:48:53 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on March 09, 2012, 06:44:51 pm
The fuck? War Spear is an AWESOME weapon!
I know (throwing lance is a lot like the warspear), it just isn't like I'd want spearfighting to be.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Son Of Odin on March 09, 2012, 08:59:23 pm
Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 09, 2012, 06:48:53 pm
I know (throwing lance is a lot like the warspear), it just isn't like I'd want spearfighting to be.
You're not what your mommy and daddy wanted you to be :mrgreen:
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vibe on March 09, 2012, 09:07:18 pm
Quote from: The_Bloody_Nine on March 09, 2012, 06:37:03 pm
another hero with shield:

(click to show/hide)

Funny because of your avatar
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Moncho on March 09, 2012, 10:08:19 pm
Quote from: Xant on March 09, 2012, 06:28:03 pm
Yes, Achilles in Troy. Spartans in 300..

And this is set what, 3/400 BC?
And cRPG is set what, 1100-1700 AD?
Not a big gap, you see...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 09, 2012, 10:22:25 pm
Come at me spaniard and you'll have a big gap
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Teeth on March 09, 2012, 11:17:52 pm
Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on March 09, 2012, 05:57:07 pm
Not exactly ballet jumps, but Red Cliff is by far my favorite "war" movie ever.  Wish they made some movies about European history and battles in the same style as Red Cliff....if you haven't seen it, I'd recommend it.  Most of the "heroes" wield spears and pike type weapons.
Heard this was decent, watched it and was instantly reminded why I hate Chinese cinema. Wish they wouldn't fuck up badass European history by making it ridiculous like Red Cliff. I liked the spear duels, but like everything in the film they just overdo it.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 10, 2012, 12:09:12 am
Quote from: Spaniard on March 09, 2012, 10:08:19 pm
And this is set what, 3/400 BC?
And cRPG is set what, 1100-1700 AD?
Not a big gap, you see...

Wut? The talk was about "popular culture" not "movies about 1100-1700 AD"
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Rumblood on March 10, 2012, 12:28:26 am
Quote from: SgtTeeh on March 09, 2012, 11:17:52 pm
Heard this was decent, watched it and was instantly reminded why I hate Chinese cinema. Wish they wouldn't fuck up badass European history by making it ridiculous like Red Cliff. I liked the spear duels, but like everything in the film they just overdo it.

I haven't seen Red Cliff (going to look for it though). The reason it is overdone in that style, is because most people (who aren't warriors) can't actually see just how skilled someone really is. If you showed an absolutely AMAZING duel between 2 Chess players, the average person will be bored to tears, with little more than an understanding of who won. Its similar in melee fights in real life as well.
Someone who doesn't understand c-RPG mechanics wouldn't understand everything that goes into a 1 vs 1 duel either. They wouldn't understand anything really about feints, chambering, footwork, closing distance to cause glances, etc. Two guys would go in, swing a few times. One dies. Not really epic if you don't understand ALL of the nuances involved in becoming skilled.
So they have to exaggerate. We understand that people can't really jump 30 feet into the air, and so does the audience. But what you are meant to understand is that 30 foot jump by one guy, that other guys in the movie can't make, is the difference in skill levels.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: zagibu on March 10, 2012, 10:37:45 pm
Quote from: Rumblood on March 10, 2012, 12:28:26 am
I haven't seen Red Cliff (going to look for it though). The reason it is overdone in that style, is because most people (who aren't warriors) can't actually see just how skilled someone really is. If you showed an absolutely AMAZING duel between 2 Chess players, the average person will be bored to tears, with little more than an understanding of who won. Its similar in melee fights in real life as well.
Someone who doesn't understand c-RPG mechanics wouldn't understand everything that goes into a 1 vs 1 duel either. They wouldn't understand anything really about feints, chambering, footwork, closing distance to cause glances, etc. Two guys would go in, swing a few times. One dies. Not really epic if you don't understand ALL of the nuances involved in becoming skilled.
So they have to exaggerate. We understand that people can't really jump 30 feet into the air, and so does the audience. But what you are meant to understand is that 30 foot jump by one guy, that other guys in the movie can't make, is the difference in skill levels.

Yeah, but some still like to think it's sad that they make movies for the dumb people. Of course, it makes sense economically, but still...
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 10, 2012, 10:55:14 pm
Quote from: zagibu on March 10, 2012, 10:37:45 pm
Yeah, but some still like to think it's sad that they make movies for the dumb people. Of course, it makes sense economically, but still...

There is a difference between dumb, and uneducated on a specific subject, which Rumblood was talking about.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Miley on March 10, 2012, 11:01:54 pm
GLA and Danish are fine.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Gurnisson on March 10, 2012, 11:41:11 pm
GLA and Danish the best polearm and 2h? Really? I've used a lot of weapons as a 2H and a polearmer and I find those two weapons to be quite overrated. Glaive, Poleaxe and Long Bardiche all seem superior to the GLA from my point of view. SoW, HBS and Greatsword all seem superior to the Danish in my eyes too.

Also, it's right what people said about popularity. If some people destroy entire teams with a weapon, people will copycat those players. I blame Tor for the amount of GLA users and people like Phyrex, Cooties and Bjord for an extreme amount of greatswords. I've never been a min-maxer, I just wanted my own look but every time I change a weapon the amount of people who uses it increases. As an example I never saw any long awlpikes when I found out that it should be the weapon that would define my looks, now there's tons of it. I ended up selling it for that very reason and I usually end up doing the same thing with my other weapons too. Popular weapons = No no. Chase did the same with the regular awlpike too. They were a lot rarer than before he started playing with it.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Moncho on March 11, 2012, 12:19:38 am
Quote from: Gurnisson on March 10, 2012, 11:41:11 pm
GLA and Danish the best polearm and 2h? Really? I've used a lot of weapons as a 2H and a polearmer and I find those two weapons to be quite overrated. Glaive, Poleaxe and Long Bardiche all seem superior to the GLA from my point of view. SoW, HBS and Greatsword all seem superior to the Danish in my eyes too.

Also, it's right what people said about popularity. If some people destroy entire teams with a weapon, people will copycat those players. I blame Tor for the amount of GLA users and people like Phyrex, Cooties and Bjord for an extreme amount of greatswords. I've never been a min-maxer, I just wanted my own look but every time I change a weapon the amount of people who uses it increases. As an example I never saw any long awlpikes when I found out that it should be the weapon that would define my looks, now there's tons of it. I ended up selling it for that very reason and I usually end up doing the same thing with my other weapons too. Popular weapons = No no. Chase did the same with the regular awlpike too. They were a lot rarer than before he started playing with it.

This isi a factor, but something else i realise: when im a cav, there are spears everywhere, when im an archer, its shielders that multiply, when im a shielder, maulers appear out of nowhere!
My guess: given a certain composition in a server, this gets hugely exaggerated by what you want to see. If you start using a certain weapon you hadnt realised before, then suddenly wait, a few people use it. after a while: oh, this and this and this other guy all use it, later, omfg "everyone" uses it!
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Thomek on March 11, 2012, 01:13:05 am
No.

Just look down and the ground is littered with mw danish.

Look up and at the statistics a few pages back. The same.

This is what this thread is about. I guess I tried to add in that weapon range is undervalued a little in the general weapon stats balance.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Zandieer on March 11, 2012, 03:34:37 am
Quote from: Spaniard on March 11, 2012, 12:19:38 am
This isi a factor, but something else i realise: when im a cav, there are spears everywhere, when im an archer, its shielders that multiply, when im a shielder, maulers appear out of nowhere!
My guess: given a certain composition in a server, this gets hugely exaggerated by what you want to see. If you start using a certain weapon you hadnt realised before, then suddenly wait, a few people use it. after a while: oh, this and this and this other guy all use it, later, omfg "everyone" uses it!
This.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vibe on March 12, 2012, 08:14:37 am
I agree with danish being overused and probably for a reason (both great range and damage), but while GLA might have the damage, it doesn't have the range. Imo Poleaxe is a much better weapon than GLA.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Gnjus on March 12, 2012, 08:23:03 am
Too long of a thread, can't be bothered with reading it (especially when i see who started it  :twisted:), I'll just say 2 things:


1. (said more then a year ago) - More gear diversity on the battlefield is definitely a good thing, at least for the regular Battle servers (which means more weapons & armor should be made a viable choice), didn't you guys had enough of clone wars in Strat already ?

2. The Bloody Nine has a bloody awesome avatar.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 12, 2012, 10:31:55 am
Stats say Danish is OP but I still see nothing but pikes in various shapes/sizes on the battlefield.

Thing about Danish GS and swords in general is that they are great for 1vs1 but if you're better player than your opponent (who's using Danish GS) you're most likely gonna beat him. If you're fighting 3 guys who are using Danish GS and there is a difference between your skill (experience) and theirs you'll gonna win in most cases, even easier if they approached you one on one. Most smart players know why things work like this and many of them "abuse" it, including me. It's way easier to fight multiple noobs using swords than any other group of noobs in this mod.

On the other hand, pike isn't the best weapon 1vs1 but that doesn't mean that better player won't kick your ass even if you're using Danish GS and he's using pike (for example: Zotte using long spear or Cecs using awlpike). But there is a big chance you'll win 1vs1 against someone who's on your skill level and using pike.

BUT.. if you are fighting two guys skilled as you are, you are dead (in scenario where they are using Danish GS that's actually an easier fight than 1vs1 with each of them). If you are fighting two complete noobs who bought Warband yesterday and they are using pikes, you'll have a tough time. Three of them will get you in most cases.

Which leads to conclusion that pike is epic weapon for fighting in groups and since we're mostly playing battle that's all it matters. You can't balance mod for duels when majority are playing battle where face to face duels are rare and it's mostly: gangbang, backstabbing, killing disabled enemies (bumped enemies) and other honorable activities we enjoy on big battle servers.

Danish is pretty crappy when you're fighting in formations, stab has long reach but it isn't very damaging, it's slow and can't be spammed like pikes can, sideswing are mostly useless in formation fights because you must know your hitboxes very well not to hit other members of your team and overhead is cool but you need to get near and that's when you're gonna get hit either by pikes or spammed by one handers. I play on my own for a reason, if I have someone by me fights are a lot harder because of early active blah blah cmp implemented (especially if my buddy is a shielder). Being agi whore means you're not made for fighting in groups because you'll lose your only advantage and that's speed because you lack maneuver space.

I bet now those who actually took time to read this WoT ask themselves, wtf is this guy smoking! Stats clearly show OPness of Danish GS... My theory is this: 2H swords are generally worse choice than many polearms but plenty people still use them, some noobs because they like the looks and some experienced players for style (I would use poleaxes if they weren't so fugly weapons imho). The difference is, that we have more experienced players using swords (Danish GS) then we have good polearm users. I can count good EU polearmers on one hand and when it comes to "2H crutchers" there is at least 20-30 of them. If you don't believe they are decent players, how about you ask cmpx for a free respec so all of us can show you that racking kills is just as easy with certain polearms as it is with greatswords :wink:

Whenever I picked poleaxe from the ground with 1 wpf (pretty crap damage because I have just 6 PS and wpf is huge factor when it comes to my damage output) I always managed to kill someone. Fighting shielders is 3 times easier with poleaxe than with swords, not just because I trashed their precious shield in shreds. It's because of fear factor, they fear me much more when they know they can lose their shield. Fear factor is most important thing in this mod, you can win many fights if you know what your opponents think at that moment you're fighting him, no matter how better he might be.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Remy on March 12, 2012, 07:05:45 pm
Nice post Leshma.  :D

Especially this part:

Quote from: Leshma on March 12, 2012, 10:31:55 am
Fear factor is most important thing in this mod, you can win many fights if you know what your opponents think at that moment you're fighting him, no matter how better he might be.

In a similar vein I have noticed most of my deaths regardless of class or weapon I use are due to incorrect thinking(believing I am out of range when I am not, assuming that I am faster when I am not, etc).

Psychology is an important part of most competitive games.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Nehvar on March 12, 2012, 08:01:38 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 12, 2012, 10:31:55 am
Fear factor is most important thing in this mod, you can win many fights if you know what your opponents think at that moment you're fighting him, no matter how better he might be.

Definitely helps.  Sometimes I bring a mallet with me just for the intimidation value it holds.  Few will try to block the overhead even though I very rarely crushthrough with my eighteen strength, unloomed weapon.  The best is when blobs fall apart at the sight of the mallet; some enemies deciding to find another way around rather than face it.  Makes me chuckle.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Bjord on March 13, 2012, 07:58:49 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on March 10, 2012, 11:41:11 pm
...and people like Phyrex, Cooties and Bjord for an extreme amount of greatswords.

Funny, I still get name dropped after 8 months of absence?

In any case I am in unison with your sentiment, popular players will make room for new trends and that kinda messes with your style - it becomes non-existant. It's hard to keep a personal style when a lot of people start emulating you.

Which is why apart from my sword which I will never change, I use ugly combinations that defy stylistic ideals and beliefs. That way you can put your own mark or associations on items, specifically ones that are seen as lacking in aesthetics.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Leshma on March 13, 2012, 09:06:48 pm
Your archer was so mainstream.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Bjord on March 13, 2012, 09:38:16 pm
Quote from: Leshma on March 13, 2012, 09:06:48 pm
Your archer was so mainstream.

 
Shut your face, Smegma.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: BlackMilk on March 13, 2012, 10:11:51 pm
Danish isn't overrated, it simply is the best greatsword in crpg.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: POOPHAMMER on March 17, 2012, 01:19:51 am
Quote from: Thomek on March 05, 2012, 04:06:21 pm
I've been to NA a few times, but It's hard to see anything because of the chat-shitstorm cluttering the view.

Yeah I feel you, its almost as hard as trying to watch anything over the rage polls that pop up on EU every 10 seconds
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Gurnisson on March 17, 2012, 01:42:51 am
I like NA servers more than EU. On EU I get shot to pieces, in NA servers I don't. I envy you guys, would've played there but for the lag. :)
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 17, 2012, 02:46:49 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on March 17, 2012, 01:42:51 am
I like NA servers more than EU. On EU I get shot to pieces, in NA servers I don't. I envy you guys, would've played there but for the lag. :)
I say the opposite. I'd love to play in EU with low ping.
not like I really get low ping to na anyways lol [70]
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Gurnisson on March 17, 2012, 04:10:36 pm
You like getting penetrated by arrows all the time? Well, I guess one can prefer different things
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Bjord on March 17, 2012, 06:03:04 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on March 17, 2012, 04:10:36 pm
You like getting penetrated by arrows all the time? Well, I guess one can prefer different things

 
I think it's more of a grass-is-greener-on-other-side-case.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on March 17, 2012, 06:05:43 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on March 17, 2012, 01:42:51 am
I like NA servers more than EU. On EU I get shot to pieces, in NA servers I don't. I envy you guys, would've played there but for the lag. :)

I prefer EU for my archer as your archers stay still more when they shoot, where as NA I give up on archer duels. Also you have more light cav (at my playing times at least) and less heavy, so it is substantially more dangerous and exciting to dehorse people. Most of my high scores as an archer are on EU.

For melee though, NA all the way (less light cav and less range spam).
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Vibe on March 17, 2012, 06:06:03 pm
Another thread fallen to EU/NA war
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: B3RS3RK on March 17, 2012, 08:01:40 pm
Danish Duels are the royal class of fighting.Just sayin.

oh, btw: NA SUXXXXXX EU FOREVA!
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Xant on March 18, 2012, 05:14:29 am
Quote from: Vibe on March 17, 2012, 06:06:03 pm
Another thread fallen to EU/NA war

glory
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: POOPHAMMER on March 18, 2012, 06:44:02 am
Polearm
---
Heavy Lance (mounted)              3,965,363  31.22%
Long Spear                         880,724    6.93% 
Pike                               632,020    4.98% 


Hmmmmm now to find the topics where people defended pike and longspear nerf topics saying it gets more assists than kills
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: POOPHAMMER on March 18, 2012, 06:49:26 am
Siege Shield                 18       0.00%


so anyone feel like explaining this one?

EDIT: Crap double posted w/o thinking
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Wraist on March 18, 2012, 08:01:13 am
Quote from: POOPHAMMER on March 18, 2012, 06:49:26 am
Siege Shield                 18       0.00%


so anyone feel like explaining this one?

EDIT: Crap double posted w/o thinking

Easy, throw a sidge sheild at somebody, and hope it hits them. The reasoning [if it's the same as killing people with ladders] is that since it moves slowly, it gets a massive damage boost from the speed bonus.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: POOPHAMMER on March 18, 2012, 08:10:23 am
Quote from: Wraist on March 18, 2012, 08:01:13 am
Easy, throw a sidge sheild at somebody, and hope it hits them. The reasoning [if it's the same as killing people with ladders] is that since it moves slowly, it gets a massive damage boost from the speed bonus.

Yeah but those rise as high up as a player does, I have even been lifted by siege shields a few times and never died

Siege Ladders on the other hand would send a user catapulting in the air quite a distance and height, thus killing them on impact
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: [ptx] on March 18, 2012, 11:17:55 am
It has dealt 18 damage total, that is not enough to kill someone. Probably threw a siege shield off a ledge and it hit someone below.
Title: Re: 2 weapons dominate 2h/pole.
Post by: Teeth on March 18, 2012, 03:44:46 pm
Quote from: POOPHAMMER on March 18, 2012, 06:44:02 am
Polearm
---
Heavy Lance (mounted)              3,965,363  31.22%
Long Spear                         880,724    6.93% 
Pike                               632,020    4.98% 


Hmmmmm now to find the topics where people defended pike and longspear nerf topics saying it gets more assists than kills
This is damage dealt, so its perfectly plausible that they get more assists than kills.