cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => The Chamber of Tears => Topic started by: jack786 on March 29, 2014, 04:18:43 pm

Title: 1h cav
Post by: jack786 on March 29, 2014, 04:18:43 pm
This is how devs imagine 1h cav in CRPG.
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Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 29, 2014, 04:24:41 pm
This is how devs imagine 1h cav in CRPG.
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Clearly 2h cav. They don't use shields.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Tzar on March 29, 2014, 04:25:18 pm
Inb4 thread goes Chamber of tears
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Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: jack786 on March 29, 2014, 04:29:58 pm
Inb4 thread goes Chamber of tears
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le me guess, 1h cav?
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: //saxon on March 29, 2014, 04:41:53 pm
the best thing about "heavy" cav is, and i think all cav players can agree with me on this

no matter how big they fucked up,

getting caught in the middle of 7 enemies
crashing into a tree and then surrounded by 7 enemies
getting reared and then surrounded by 7 enemies
suicide charging the spawn at the start of a round and then getting surrounded by 7 enemies

they get out of it alive most of the time, especially on a heavy horse, anyone else makes a mistake they die instantly.

completely surrounded by the enemy team and the shield hoovers up 90% of the hits, even when you hit the horses feet.
i find it funny as fuck tbh. you make a stupid mistake you should pay with your life or atleast your horses life, how come cav have special treatment like this.

ive played 1h cav, got to lvl 33 and this always happened to me. i would just squeeze through all the enemies and laugh while riding away.


but discussing that video, orcs don't teamplay, they team kill all the time and they are all strength builds, the weakness for cav?  :lol:
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Tzar on March 29, 2014, 04:46:35 pm
le me guess, 1h cav?

Lancer.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: HardRice on March 29, 2014, 04:55:40 pm
the best thing about HEAVY cav is, and i think all cav players can agree with me on this
Light cav players without 1010101123456789764546745786834121234 Happy, Thranduil? ironflesh and armour get fucked up if they fuck up.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Lt_Anders on March 29, 2014, 04:57:30 pm
Light cav players without 1010101 ironflesh and armour get fucked up if they fuck up.

Yup. I can atest to that
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Tzar on March 29, 2014, 05:02:27 pm
Saxon is full of crap, but then again, its crpg forums ofcourse people are biased....

Fact is, Cav have been nerfed again, n again n again.... only way you can play aggressive with cav is going great lance. Aware inf counters cav everyday. And that i can say with a straight face  :wink:

Hes right about the heavy heavy heavy cav like plated charger or mamluk horse, those horses can make a couple of mistakes before going down.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: San on March 29, 2014, 05:17:38 pm
Maybe you can, but that is way too difficult for me to say with a straight face.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Macropus on March 29, 2014, 05:22:18 pm
completely surrounded by the enemy team and the shield hoovers up 90% of the hits, even when you hit the horses feet.
Well that's not true. If you hit the horse's legs, you hit it and do a lot of damage as they are unarmored. Even Plated Charger dies very quickly this way.
Another story is that for some reason a lot of players prefer some very strange ways of taking down stopped cav, like: glancing off its armour, hitting the shield with overhead (WHY?!), hitting the armoured parts of the horse, etc. Sure with such approach the cav would get away alive.
Maybe you can, but that is way too difficult for me to say with a straight face.
Well, imo NA and EU have different meanings of "awareness". At least from my (very limited though) experience of playing on NA, people just cba to watch out for cav, makes cav kinda OP there.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: //saxon on March 29, 2014, 05:33:31 pm
Light cav players without 1010101 ironflesh and armour get fucked up if they fuck up.
ok il add heavy cav then
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: San on March 29, 2014, 05:33:47 pm
Maybe, it's been a little over a year since I tried cav on EU (was a lancer+1h on rouncey). Personally, I didn't really find any difference back then.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: //saxon on March 29, 2014, 05:38:04 pm
bump slash: where you hit the horse and it doesn't flinch the player continues to bump you over and then proceeds to hit your head while you are inside the player's horse and you can't do a single thing about it and you are lucky if you survive, because to bump slash you have to be very very skilled player..


don't you agree Tzar?
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Thranduil on March 29, 2014, 05:41:00 pm
Light cav players without 1010101 85 ironflesh and armour get fucked up if they fuck up.

Easy does it with the binary, Texas Instruments.  :wink:
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: SP1N on March 29, 2014, 06:37:45 pm
Clearly those spearmen were just glancing.

Due to the sweetspot change, no doubt.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Aksei on March 29, 2014, 07:33:30 pm
oh that salty tears  :mrgreen:

well, as cav i can say, if you nerf cav, then give me make it 200% cheaper.

If i compare my heavy cav char with my 2H alt, then the performance is the same while horse cost more than double.

The funny thing is, that i play a lot of 1h infatry, what should be easy target for other cav ... but i just dont run like a blind bot at enemies, so i dont get killed by cav that much
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Gurnisson on March 29, 2014, 07:51:17 pm
bump slash: where you hit the horse and it doesn't flinch the player continues to bump you over and then proceeds to hit your head while you are inside the player's horse and you can't do a single thing about it and you are lucky if you survive, because to bump slash you have to be very very skilled player..


don't you agree Tzar?

I'm sorry, but if you get bump-slashed while using a greatsword you're either not aware or bad against cavalry. Either reason makes you getting hit deserved.

Also, op, if you have problems with spears against 2h/1h cav you're not just bad, you're awful

1h/2h cav is classes that are brilliant shock troops. Can take out unaware opponents, ranged who have used their shot right before you engage and shielders with short weapons. Aware 2h or polearm players? Not a chance if they're anything but awful. Lancers trades some damage and arc for the ability to take on anyone but pikemen in a 1v1, compared to other melee cavalry.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Elio on March 29, 2014, 07:53:23 pm
Buff throwers, problem fixed

I just noticed with my thrower alt I don't even 1 hit light horse with Throwing Lance and 8 PT. Except Sumpter and donkey, maybe.

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Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Thranduil on March 29, 2014, 08:00:23 pm
Buff throwers,

 :lol:
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Teeth on March 29, 2014, 08:15:36 pm
1h/2h cav is classes that are brilliant shock troops. Can take out unaware opponents, ranged who have used their shot right before you engage and shielders with short weapons. Aware 2h or polearm players? Not a chance if they're anything but awful. Lancers trades some damage and arc for the ability to take on anyone but pikemen in a 1v1, compared to other melee cavalry.
They can also take out anyone who is currently distracted, regardless of the length of their weapon. And they can take those guys out much more efficiently than lancer cavalry due to significantly higher damage output. Saying that lancers can take on anyone but pikemen (and hoplites, and any other 165+ length polearms) in a 1 vs 1 might be true in theory, but in practice very few lancers actually do. I like the challenge of trying to take on Awlpikes or Greatswords with my Lance, but lancing sweetspot is so very small and there are so many variables like them moving or jumping, which can completely ruin your timing, you really need to be confident and mostly slow down your horse to be able to react in time. If you succeed you do half the hp of the guy if you are very lucky, or do 10% or glance. If you fail your horse is most likely dead which leads to you incurring 2 hits while lying on the floor. In practice, the average lancer does not have the ability to take on 120 length stab 2h and 150+ length polearms, if they did more lancers would actually do it.

With all the changes to stab mechanics I really have to be on the ball with my timing to not glance, and that is with a 9 PS lancer build. If you compare the ease of hitting for good damage with a lance and the ease of hitting for good damage with a 1h cav build, I definitely feel like a tightening of the swinging sweet spots is in order. I have been hit for high damage with some retarded backhand swings or swings with terrible speed bonus. Get more of a skill curve on 1h cav, punish poor timing. So many piss poor 1h cavalry getting such high scores because regardless of your ability, bumpslashing people that are distracted or unaware is just very easy.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Artyem on March 29, 2014, 08:25:01 pm
Honestly, 2h cav is way more OP than 1h cav.  Using a morningstar from horseback is probably the easiest thing I've done in this game, seeing as how it seems to do full damage regardless of how fast you're moving or which direction you're swinging.

The thing that annoys me the most though are the people using great lances on arabian horses, since they seem to be capable of couching while going up hill and turning to accommodate for enemy movement.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Bulzur on March 29, 2014, 08:43:39 pm
Backslashing with a 2h or 1h weapon on cav has such a great speed and range, it usually always distracts me.

Even after killing the horse, the rider doesn't even get fall damage. What's with the roll now, it's like you don't get any penalty, and have 2 lives... You just have to be "slightly" rich, and you're bound to be stronger than all others.

It's just the natural evolution. Everyone should be on a horse. It's not even about the "price", and cost/effectiveness ratio, since all demands of stronger bows/2h/polearms unusable on horseback and as expensive as a Plated Charger have been refused cause of obvious OPness. Yet, horses stay.


I'd also like to add the ridiculous boost a +3 horse has compared to it's +0 counterpart. Heirlooming your horse really feels like the smartest thing to do.
Having a +3 War Horse gives you :
Price : 33 248 gold
Speed : 43
Armor : 44
HP : 135
Maneuver : 43
Charge : 38
Difficulty : 5

So much better than an Eastern Horse :
Price : 23 981 gold
Speed : 44
Armor : 6
Speed : 44
HP : 80
Maneuver : 44
Charge : 11
Difficulty : 8


Always felt strange. There's just no real reason to go for an unarmored horse if you're going 1h/cav...
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Tzar on March 29, 2014, 08:54:18 pm

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Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Gurnisson on March 29, 2014, 09:03:41 pm
What's with the roll now, it's like you don't get any penalty, and have 2 lives...

What are you talking about? You can't roll when you get dismounted if that's what you're trying to say. Not 2 lives at all, you can be gunned down before you lose your horse, die one the ground when you're helpless after being dismounted, or even die together with your horse at the same time, as the horse and the rider can be hit by the same weapon at the same time.

It's just the natural evolution. Everyone should be on a horse. It's not even about the "price", and cost/effectiveness ratio, since all demands of stronger bows/2h/polearms unusable on horseback and as expensive as a Plated Charger have been refused cause of obvious OPness. Yet, horses stay.

Horses are not straight upgrades for your character. They cost you skill points and makes your effectiveness more situational. Cavalry can be stronger than the other classes, but they can also be weaker. Getting dismounted close to 2-3 infantry usually means death, unless the horse lands in a very favourable position and soaks a few hits.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: //saxon on March 29, 2014, 09:16:36 pm
I'm sorry, but if you get bump-slashed while using a greatsword you're either not aware or bad against cavalry. Either reason makes you getting hit deserved.

bump slash: where you hit the horse and it doesn't flinch the player continues to bump you over
i hit the horse every time, shields hoover my swings up most of the time though.


the thing is, anyone who charges me trying to bump slash knows their horse has enough HP to live after i hit it (IF I HIT IT)
which makes it stupid because no matter what i do, they are going to survive and bump slash me, i can't avoid it

i mean who the hell would charge a greatsword if their horse has 10 hp?

thanks teeth
So many piss poor 1h cavalry getting such high scores because regardless of your ability, bumpslashing people that are distracted or unaware is just very easy.
very correct.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Mustikki on March 29, 2014, 09:36:37 pm
..So many piss poor 1h cavalry getting such high scores because regardless of your ability, bumpslashing people that are distracted or unaware is just very easy.
You actually got any screenies of that? 'Cos I never see any noob (except 2nuubhammers) topping the scoreboard or constantly doing good on real battle regardless of their build.
+ bumpslash has changed to be needing more skills.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Jona on March 29, 2014, 10:32:23 pm
bumpslash has changed to be needing more skills.

bumpslash ... to be needing more skills.

bumpslash ... needing more skills.

bumpslash ... skills.

Lol. Riiiiiiiiiiiight...

Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: San on March 29, 2014, 10:55:55 pm
It's difficult for me to sympathize with cavalry when they are in control of their own risk/reward with gameplay that's already very forgiving. Cav can hunt other cav, but not enough do it, sadly.

Quote
the thing is, anyone who charges me trying to bump slash knows their horse has enough HP to live after i hit it (IF I HIT IT)

This. If you know your horse can tank a hit, landing a bump slash is more than possible, even on an aware/good player. You can also goad infantry to over-commit on their attacks (especially jumping) or ignore them completely. Cav have the option on not having to overcommit or even commit at all on their own attacks, such as attacking a location you know would hit if the infantry moves towards you or perform another predicted action. Although that's more of a tactic for lancers, similar tactics can be performed to get the bump slash, such as getting the opponent to swing too early or late.

Outside of the situation where your horse is getting shot at low health, you can generally control how and where you get dehorsed if you mess up (or just get off the horse yourself). Don't get dehorsed by juggernauts, throwers, or around any arbalests, and you can get up for another few kills.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Teeth on March 29, 2014, 11:35:18 pm
Cav can hunt other cav, but not enough do it, sadly.
That is another thing, fighting 1h cav as a lancer is something I find quite tough and totally not worth the risk if it weren't for my burning hatred for 1h cav. They are often able to completely annihilate my team if left unchecked, so I take one for the team and spent my round hunting them, but damn. As a lancer your horse has to always face their horse to be able to hit and only the slightest touch of the guys horse makes your horse do a full stop. Which completely removes any advantage you have and is gonna get your horse 1 or 2 shot. Combined with the incredible coverage of nearly the entire horse that a small ass shield like the Elite Cav gives, it just incredibly hard to deal damage to a 1h cav without getting stopped and then owned.

1h cav is just such an incredible combination of borked game mechanics that I would love to see adjusted before even touching the weapon stats or anything. Fix the amount of coverage a shield gives you on horseback, make horse rearing trigger less easily on a horse slightly grazing another horse, prevent 1h cav from being able to hit through their horse and reduce the size of sweetspots for horse slashes, just to name a few. Probably all too difficult or time intensive to do, in which case I would support a slight damage nerf.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: LordLargos on March 30, 2014, 09:33:15 am
While 1h (heavy) cav can be a powerful tool it is a high risk high reward class it has it's pros and cons just like every other class.
Pros
-Selective Targeting*<---
-High health
-High Mobility
-Bump damage
-Viable Infantry Skills
Cons
-Large easy to hit high priority target for ranged
-Most expensive class
-Takes a lot of points(Riding,Shield, High PS, etc)
-Bottom of the cav food chain(Rouncey cav doesn't count) A lancer unable to kill a 1h cav should reflect on his/her anti-cav skills
-Those pesky horse archers!
-Even 2h can rear use not to say it doesn't really matter because they 1hit my champion large warhorse if I charge full speed at them(which is why I don't)
-People with sticks up their ass(probably broken off lances) who make their builds and focus solely on killing cav (Bonsai) no offense.
-Weak against throwing
-High TW risk or risk of being TWed
-Map and Team dependency (More enemy team's class demographics than anything)

All in all just like every class it has its pros and cons like it should, but once you master it can be highly effective.
Also while every once in awhile we get out lucky I almost never make it out of the 7 man moshpits you speak of after my horse is reared.

The only thing that I think needs to be adjusted is the rearing from sides (pole arm is on your left while you try to make a getaway and he somehow manages to rear your horse when he is at your 9' o clock) Should be set to -75-75 degrees not -90-90 and not so much a 1h cav thing but nerf 2h stab already.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Teeth on March 30, 2014, 12:01:31 pm
A lancer unable to kill a 1h cav should reflect on his/her anti-cav skills
A 1h cav unable to kill a lancer should reflect on his/her anti-cav skills.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Gurnisson on March 30, 2014, 12:50:33 pm
It goes both ways. A toss-up if same skill level, but a skilled lancer should be able to take out a 1h cav and the other way around. They're good against each other in different ways, so the best one (or most patient/least reckless) will win a 1v1.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Ronin on March 30, 2014, 04:04:09 pm
One thing is the bane of all cavalry classes: stupid teammates
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: San on March 30, 2014, 05:47:52 pm
Agree with gurnisson there. Disagree with Largos on almost all points in cons.

One thing is the bane of all of any class: stupid teammates

At least if I'm cav, I can ignore my teammates. As infantry, I'm forced to fight 8v1 or something.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Matim on March 30, 2014, 06:22:41 pm
Agree with gurnisson there. Disagree with Largos on almost all points in cons.

At least if I'm cav, I can ignore my teammates. As infantry, I'm forced to fight 8v1 or something.

If it's 8vs1 one person more or less doesn't make a difference, trust me
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Kafein on March 30, 2014, 06:24:40 pm
One thing though, I witnessed that 1h cav tend to use their horses as meatshields much more than lancers do. As in, trading your horse's HP against the enemy's HP. Lancers have (or rather, had, back when horses could you know, turn) the possibility of inflicting damage on one guy while staying out of harm if their maneuver is correctly executed.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Ronin on March 30, 2014, 10:05:19 pm
At least if I'm cav, I can ignore my teammates. As infantry, I'm forced to fight 8v1 or something.
It's not like that really, if your class depends on backstabbing distracted people.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: San on March 30, 2014, 10:19:20 pm
I believe that it doesn't depend on backstabbing distracted people, but it is merely another bonus on a list of positives. There are more options available to you besides that. Relocating, grouping up with other teammates, getting off the horse, and more.

If it's 8vs1 one person more or less doesn't make a difference, trust me

Huh? I was trying to say that I can more easily get out of poor situations for myself. I could move to another part of the map where there are teammates or easier targets. 8v1 to 8v2 does make a difference depending on the situation.
Title: Re: 1h cav
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 30, 2014, 10:32:28 pm
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You dont really need to be a master to do well as 1h cav, more swings are oneshot than not. Horse is so tanky on top of having a shield covering 90% of the front. Its more of a High upkeep, high reward class.