cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Mustikki on September 04, 2011, 05:08:29 pm

Title: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Mustikki on September 04, 2011, 05:08:29 pm
With new anti-cav items ranged could have some protection against cavalry on flat ground and hopefully ladders could be removed from the battle modes.

These spike walls would be easy to get over by being infantry, so these would only give protection against cavalry.

Maybe 1-3 slot items.

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Note: The spike walls does not need to do damage. It is there to stop cavalry charge and provide certain protection from cavalry from specific direction.
Also the spike groups, would propably best to do from single spikes (as in pic #2), as the spike_group props might be a too tight to get over by foot.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Merten on September 04, 2011, 05:11:14 pm
GOOD Idea!

(IF the people are smart enough to use them proper ... )
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Christo on September 04, 2011, 05:12:29 pm
I support this.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Tzar on September 04, 2011, 05:14:10 pm
Good idea
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Alex_C on September 04, 2011, 05:27:40 pm
I believe there's already been a mod made at some point, which makes spike_group_a do damage only to horses moving a certain speed into them or something.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Lichen on September 04, 2011, 05:34:57 pm
I believe that's actually what was done in RL open field battles with archers behind stakes so they wouldn't get steamrolled. 100% yes.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Overdriven on September 04, 2011, 05:46:56 pm
I believe the reason this has never been implemented is due to the fact it would be horrendously abusable. Imagine all of those placed on town maps for instance.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Mustikki on September 04, 2011, 05:54:24 pm
The spike walls should be destroyable to prevent blocking ways. But maybe half the current construction sites health. So those would get down by hitting, but not with random lancing from horseback.

I believe the reason this has never been implemented is due to the fact it would be horrendously abusable. Imagine all of those placed on town maps for instance.

Can't be worse than ladders. Sure if placed behind each other, it would take sometime to destroy them. But you should be able to walk/jump past the spikes.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Vibe on September 04, 2011, 06:21:02 pm
Very good idea.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Kafein on September 04, 2011, 06:28:03 pm
Good idea if ladders are removed from battle.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: HarunYahya on September 04, 2011, 07:04:39 pm
Creative and nice idea . I support dat !
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Lizard_man on September 04, 2011, 08:10:46 pm
already been suggested, but regardless, great idea...
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Momo on September 04, 2011, 09:21:35 pm
Good idea!
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Bulzur on September 04, 2011, 10:51:33 pm
The spike walls should be destroyable to prevent blocking ways. But maybe half the current construction sites health. So those would get down by hitting, but not with random lancing from horseback.

Can't be worse than ladders. Sure if placed behind each other, it would take sometime to destroy them. But you should be able to walk/jump past the spikes.

Since stabbing lance does pierce damage, making them highly resistant to pierce damage, but vulnerable to cut damage would be great. But less than half as much health as a construction site. Twice as many hits than a siege shield, for example. They should be easy to destroy by inf.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Jarlek on September 05, 2011, 01:30:40 am
Since stabbing lance does pierce damage, making them highly resistant to pierce damage, but vulnerable to cut damage would be great. But less than half as much health as a construction site. Twice as many hits than a siege shield, for example. They should be easy to destroy by inf.
Not sure if you can make it specifically resistant to pierce, but axes get bonus against doors and stuff, don't they?

EDIT: Forgot to say, +1!
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: PieParadox on September 05, 2011, 02:50:30 am
Good idea, though highly abusable...

A possible solution would be that if a horse runs into it, they are reared and take damage, while the barricade is now destroyed. A one use defense? Or 2-3, somethin like dat.

Edit: May increase range population and decrease cavalry numbers... Take that into account too
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Torp on September 05, 2011, 05:50:59 am
imagine 5 pikemen in a circle of these...
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Siiem on September 05, 2011, 06:19:24 am
+1 to this! Anything to get those ladders away.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: San on September 05, 2011, 06:33:23 am
I'm kind of worried what kind of implications this would have on melee and in tight spaces like town maps, but this is a nice start. Make it pretty weak and I'm find with it.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: owens on September 05, 2011, 10:59:20 am
will people use on castle maps?

probably
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Wookimonsta on September 05, 2011, 12:28:15 pm
yay, now archers will not only be invulnerable to cav by going on roof, but 2 archers can drop 2 of these and be 100% unreachable.
that sounds perfectly balanced.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: B3RS3RK on September 05, 2011, 01:28:46 pm
yay, now archers will not only be invulnerable to cav by going on roof, but 2 archers can drop 2 of these and be 100% unreachable.
that sounds perfectly balanced.

Dude cant you read? 1-3 Slots.As if any archer had enough slots left to carry one of those and still be a very effective archer.

I think this is a really good Idea.

Hi,
It´s signed
I can only approved
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Wookimonsta on September 05, 2011, 01:50:04 pm
in strategus these items make sense (well, okay itll just lead to more camping and archers being 100% invulnerable to all cav in their campspot, but w/e).
i see it the same way with ladders, okay in strat (and mebe stronghold) but in battle it just leads to more camping.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Tot. on September 05, 2011, 04:11:50 pm
Good idea as an addition to make open plains maps playable again for non-cav people. Not as replacement for ladders but just as a new thing.

PS. These stakes have been suggested for a very, very long time now. I remember threads on taleworlds forums about this. Still nothing implemented. =)
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: ToxicKilla on September 05, 2011, 05:20:27 pm
Yes! Stakes would be so awesome! Maybe this will stop all those people who still want to nerf cav into the ground, too.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: marco1391 on September 05, 2011, 05:25:30 pm
As a cav player I really like the idea, +1
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: cmp on September 05, 2011, 06:55:26 pm
Stakes haven't been implemented because the only way to do it properly is extremely performance consuming and could lead to noticeable slowdowns, especially with many players. We don't want that, do we?
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: MrShovelFace on September 05, 2011, 07:11:15 pm
lololol how am i going to run you over on spectacularbuttpirate?
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Tomas on September 05, 2011, 08:11:30 pm
Stakes haven't been implemented because the only way to do it properly is extremely performance consuming and could lead to noticeable slowdowns, especially with many players. We don't want that, do we?

I'm assuming that this is because you want people to be able to move through the stakes, but not horses?  Otherwise they are theoretically no different from siege shields as far as i can see.

If this is the reason for the performance issues, then would adding individual stakes to the game work instead? 

So instead of 1 person placing a block of 10 stakes (that is awkward because people, but not horses, need to be able to pass through the block), 10 people would place 1 stake each.  If they are close enough together nothing can pass through them but attackers only need to destroy 1 stake to make a gap.  If the stakes touch then just like ladders they would destroy each other - not realistic but I'd assume this would help with performance.

This method also requires people to work together for sucessful stake deployement which is good imo.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Bryggan on September 05, 2011, 08:23:29 pm
I believe the reason this has never been implemented is due to the fact it would be horrendously abusable. Imagine all of those placed on town maps for instance.

Which is why cavalry has never been very effective in towns.  Narrow medieval streets are very easy to barricade, making it infantry/archer paradise.  Cav can't dominate everywhere, as Ghengis Khan found out when he left the steppes.  I love the idea, as infantry I have no problem with the current strength of cav, I'd just like to have something at my back when I'm trying to focus on incoming foot.  We will still be (or should be) vulnerable to archer fire, especially if we're clumped up behind it.  So, while there are benefits there are also drawbacks.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Ujin on September 05, 2011, 08:25:20 pm
.  Cav can't dominate everywhere, as Ghengis Khan found out when he left the steppes.
lolwut ?
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Leshma on September 05, 2011, 08:29:41 pm
That guy shouldn't talk about something he knows nothing about.

But this is a free world and everyone got a mouth and tongue..
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: The_Devious_Duc_Volpe on September 05, 2011, 08:31:38 pm
That guy shouldn't talk about something he knows nothing about.

But this is a free world and everyone got a mouth and tongue..

Till his tongue gets cut out for insolence, by Genghis Khan.  :wink:
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: The_Angle on September 05, 2011, 08:47:58 pm
lolwut ?

Exactly what I was thinking.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Volos on September 05, 2011, 08:55:49 pm
GREAT IDEA
Once players get to a high level, they get on a horse that's armored up the ass and they armor themselves with the highest possible armor they can afford and then
all they do is ride around like they don't give a fuck and just stab people way too easily and get easy kills cause they're bitches and have figured out that easy sweetspot and can't play if they're not armored.

And that's totally unrealistic, armored horseman were very vulnerable in the medieval era, but in this game they're a bit too unrealistic. If I were to thrust a pike into charging cavalry in those times, the horse and man would be skewered and dead and they'd collapes and tumble into the ground to death, but in here the pike just stops them with minimal damage. I don't know about you, but if I were to find that nich in a horse's head armor or pierce through with a pike or spear(which easily happened in those times) that motherfucking horse is going down and it's rider is gonna do a forward flip face first into the muddy ground.

Longbowmen in those time, used wooden stakes to fend off cavalry, because horses would NEVER charge into pointed things like stakes and pikes and spears.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


So if it's a static item that does no damage, that's fine it'll stop cavalry, but they need to be a bit more thinner and shorter, they weren't that gigantic.

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IF, but I doubt cause it can't be done GAME-WISE or programming-wise, cavalry charges into it or jumps over it then they take damage, but it can't be done. So a static item that can be placed in the THROWING category like the siege shield and ladders is a great place to put it.

This way, archers and xbowmen can smarten up and instead of running around solo shooting then getting killed can form up and make a nice line or arc of deployable spikes and stay formed up as a ranged unit. The stakes should only take up 2 slots that way they can still have their bow and arrows.

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Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Serth on September 05, 2011, 09:09:35 pm
Volos its a game who the fuck cares how big they are, cut the fucking realism talk.

I base this asshole comment on the fact that its game. Thank you.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Glyph on September 05, 2011, 09:28:16 pm
you actually made this idea working, which is really great!
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Volos on September 05, 2011, 09:38:46 pm
Did you make those stakes in the original screenshots? Is your wubby wubby heart broken by my commy wommy comment?

If you didn't make those stakes and you're just an idiot who likes to make stupid 2 word comments(cause you can't make a complete sentence) and not give any real input, let me ask you this:

Why the fuck you even playing this game? Do you know what's it's about and what it's based on? Do you know that the people who made cRPG
made the mod and this website and this forum so serious minded individuals who actually know shit about medieval combat made it to make suggestions so they can IMPROVE the game and make it more believable and less like a stupid first person shooter game? Which some people already or are trying to find that hack or niche to exploit it.

Do yourself and everyone else a favor, go play Black Ops, whatever is IN, or some other game where you can get easy kills so you can make yourself feel good or some lame-ass hyped up JAPANIMATION game where they take shit from like every historical era and every game and mash it all up and make it look COOOOOL for dumbasses like you. Go play something that tweens are playing. This is for MATURE people who've been waiting for a serious medieval combat game.

And stay off forums cause you sound like 12 and a dumb motherfucker.

And um, by the way save your reply, I've said what I've about this and moving on to other suggestion posts and I've got other shit to do than go back and forth with a pimple faced cumquad like you. I actually have a life and don't need to text or chat or forum post back and forth to feel like I have a life. OOOOOOH SNAAAAAAP! LOL!
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Duster on September 05, 2011, 09:45:45 pm
^^ whoa rant status


As a lance cav player, I wholly approve of this and hope it is implemented, it is quite easy to pick off archers atm.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Jarlek on September 05, 2011, 10:02:30 pm
^^ whoa rant status


As a lance cav player, I wholly approve of this and hope it is implemented, it is quite easy to pick off archers atm.
Apart from those jumpy ones with high atl xD

But to cmpx, they don't have to deal damage if that's what causes the performance issues. Just having a static item would be really helpful.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Serth on September 05, 2011, 10:02:46 pm
Blaa blaa blaa

Your funny.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: cmp on September 06, 2011, 12:53:09 am
But to cmpx, they don't have to deal damage if that's what causes the performance issues. Just having a static item would be really helpful.

Yes, that's what causes the performance issues. I guess static spikes would work as well...
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Jarlek on September 06, 2011, 01:14:51 am
Yes, that's what causes the performance issues. I guess static spikes would work as well...
Wouldn't work as well and wouldn't be as cool, but they would serve their use. But a horsemen who reared close to a group of enemies (especially ranged) is usually fucked anyway. also would there be a way for them to have an AI invisible wall above them (to stop horses) so that one could still infantry jump over/on them and shoot over them? Otherwise you would have to make them a bit tall. You could always go for something like the one in Mount and Musket but that one is VERY 18th century and would look a bit too out of place.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Overdriven on September 06, 2011, 01:19:22 am
Horsemen should still be able to jump them...

No way should there be an invisible wall around them
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Kenji on September 06, 2011, 01:21:20 am
Give plated chargers immunity to such blockade and the game will be very balanced :mrgreen:
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: awesomeasaurus on September 06, 2011, 01:23:39 am
Yes, that's what causes the performance issues. I guess static spikes would work as well...

Yeah, I believe it would be a good item if it was deployable just as the siege shield. Siege shields are good for blocking cav currently but are not extremely wide so these would fill that niche while losing arrow cover. I don't think it is appropriate or necessary to have the spikes do damage. Just keep horses from charging. While it will not stop them from jumping over, likely, it will disrupt their charge and make it harder to stab/swing at an archer.

STATIC ITEM YAHHHH!

Please don't make them do damage or stop horses from jumping over. Just play em like a mobile wall and they will function great.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Jarlek on September 06, 2011, 01:24:00 am
Horsemen should still be able to jump them...

No way should there be an invisible wall around them
That really depends. Personally I would like one long but low and one short but tall, if that kinda makes any sense.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Bryggan on September 06, 2011, 04:05:20 am
lolwut ?
C'mon, once his horses ran out of cheap fodder the invasion stopped.  Check the maps.  He dominated in the steppes, but once he hit the mountains his invasion foundered.  Sorta expected from an army in which each soldier had 4 horses on average. 

Edit- sorry, talking to history buffs, not fanbois.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Robert on September 06, 2011, 09:15:11 am
i like this idea
it could just be same stats as the construction site barrier but change the look to spikes
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Ujin on September 06, 2011, 02:39:28 pm
C'mon, once his horses ran out of cheap fodder the invasion stopped.  Check the maps.  He dominated in the steppes, but once he hit the mountains his invasion foundered.  Sorta expected from an army in which each soldier had 4 horses on average. 

Edit- sorry, talking to history buffs, not fanbois.
Lolwut again ? Mongols were on a roll destroying european armies and about to invade central Europe, the thing that saved it was the sudden death of the mongolain Khan (Ogedei), which forced mongolians in charge of the conquest (Batu Khan, Subotai) to pull back to their homelands. By that time mongolians have defeated almost all western european armies they've encountered, including the best knights from hungary,poland, france and germany. Mongolians were amongst the first to introduce gunpowder weapons to the western warfare and they were some of the first to use siege weaponry in open field battles (which was innovative at that time).

As for mountains - find some info on mongolian armies crossing Caucasus mountains and the results of Georgians fighting the mongols.

Don't get me wrong , i'm not a biased hardcore mongolian fan, but you've got to get your facts straight, maybe read some books.


P.S. sorry for the offtopic people.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on September 06, 2011, 03:37:12 pm
C'mon, once his horses ran out of cheap fodder the invasion stopped.  Check the maps.  He dominated in the steppes, but once he hit the mountains his invasion foundered.  Sorta expected from an army in which each soldier had 4 horses on average. 

Edit- sorry, talking to history buffs, not fanbois.

obvious troll but still

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH3sSX8sGT0

Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Dexxtaa on September 06, 2011, 03:48:42 pm
I'm going to deploy these facing the wrong way for shits.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Kenji on September 06, 2011, 03:54:45 pm
P.S. sorry for the offtopic people.
Off topic posts are rarely educational, but you've made an exception :).

[Off Topic Trolling]For realism's sake, let's unnerf HAs by making Horse Archery Skill back to one point per 3agi and Horn/Tar Tar bows back to pierce dmg![/end]
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on September 06, 2011, 04:59:22 pm
i gibe +1 for dat
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Kophka on September 06, 2011, 06:23:32 pm
Like most people have stated, I'd be cool with this as long as they replace ladders. Archer could either a) use ladders to find high spots like they do now, or
b) use stakes to slow cavalry down. But not both, that's just too much advantage, let's not make cav worthless altogether.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on September 06, 2011, 08:15:30 pm
Well, if ladders were removed I think maps with buildings should get better in-map ladders, a lot of the ones in maps at the moment are crap.

I do like the idea though, maybe another way if preventing spam of these, as well as ladders, would be adding upkeep to them?
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Glyph on September 06, 2011, 08:56:43 pm
nahh, ladders aren't spammed either, so it wouldn't be a big problem, and archers won't take them, and most inf will have 2 slots left anyway.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Phazey on September 07, 2011, 12:21:38 pm
I guess static spikes would work as well...

Nevermind that the static pikes won't do any damage, if that causes performance issues.

Just being stopped is often fatal as cavalry. So yea, implement static, deployable pikes to augment the siege shields and ladders!

I think it would be really cool, especially on the more open maps like random plains.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Teeth on September 11, 2011, 09:58:49 pm
So whats the status on the deployable stakes?

My view of these things:
- Horses need to be stopped when they run into these
- I would prefer them as a straight line, not half a circle, of about 3.5 meters length
- 2 slots
- Ladders removed from battle, stakes not in siege
- Infantry should be able to move through them, although they get slowed down, like water, or those fences lying on the ground in field by the river
- They should be destroyable in about 6 hits by your regular infantryman, I don't mind horsemen trying to lance them, extremely risky move with the current lance angle.
- Slightly shorter than the stakes in the OP.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Mustikki on October 14, 2011, 01:10:31 pm
Well, everyone likes this, but no one has told to make these.

The #2 pic would be like it, but pics #1 & #3 are too defensible.

And Teeth listed some very good points here. :)
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: kinngrimm on October 18, 2011, 01:43:10 pm
add that these type of defense doesn't get damaged by lances at all only by melee/close combat fights.
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: Glyph on October 20, 2011, 11:24:58 am
add that these type of defense doesn't get damaged by lances at all only by melee/close combat fights.
good idea, no damage from horseback at all
Title: Re: New type of anti- cav items
Post by: sF_Guardian on October 20, 2011, 06:17:17 pm
If this should be added than 2 slot and it should die in 1-2 hits from infantry, we really dont need some stupid blockin like in siege in battle mode ....