cRPG
cRPG => Ban/Unban Requests => Closed Requests => Topic started by: Rangerbob on June 24, 2011, 10:45:08 pm
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This probably isn't the best place to post this but its the only place with I know the Siege admins will read it. Anyhow I've got a suggestions on how we should admin the NA_Siege Server. I noticed alot of the admins especially the new ones give alot of warnings but tend to enforce less. I understand the rules are posted with what to do but they're too lenient and I think we need to step up our enforcement a bit.
Spawn teamwounders which are pretty easy to detect so start with a temp ban. Don't even warn them just temp ban them. If they're teamwounding multiple people at spawn they obviously asshats and don't need to be warned. If you seem them doing it again, whether its in 10 minutes, or 2 days later just perm ban them and send them to the forums.
For people who spam voice chat send a global warning out then mute on 2nd offense. If they decide to troll admin chat you can kick them or temp ban them.
Revenge tks or Leech rage tks start with a warning that they better cut it out or they're both getting kicked. Then if it happens again kick then followed by temp ban if they come back and troll. I would keep an eye on the person that was tked because he's usually the start of the problem. If that guy goes and bothers someone else you can start with a temp ban on them since he's probably been doing it for a while and you've already sent a warning.
For people who punch people or kick people while waiting for a siege tower or just bored, I generally ignore it unless someone complains about it in ichat. Then go ahead and send a general warning out and start kicking people who don't listen. If people kick others off ledges, warn them or automatically kick them depending on how you feel or if they're peasants trolling or people screwing around.
For afk leechers, I generally tell people just to qml them and get your multi. Feel free to kick them but the problem will usually take care of itself. I'd recommend show names cheat once in a while to look for ones that run off into the middle of nowhere or hide in buildings. Those you can just warn and kick. Be warned though this leads to alot more qml complaints.
For naked leechers start with a warning to get a weapon or join the fight. I would then give them a 2nd warning and included in this warning is the next offense will lead to a kick. Then kick with the next offense temp ban and last one perm ban. The problem with naked leechers is they are a chronic problem. Sometimes people just retire so you can cut them a little slack but for the ones you see leeching day after day feel free to temp ban after your warning or perm ban and send them to the forums.
The best way I have found for people who are abusing leech poll is if you get a complaint in ichat or global chat about someone leech polling people who are moving send a global warning. If you get 3 complaints from different people about someone leech polling just kick or temp ban them depending on how you worded your warning. I will sometimes warn that the next person who abuses leech poll gets a temp ban if I'm getting too many complaints at once.
For trollers just send a warning and mute them for 2nd offense. Generally trollers will then start rage teamwounding or kicking people and I slap a temp ban on them if they've already been muted.
For trollers that complain about a kick ect, I'd cut them a little slack try to explain the reason for the kick and if they keep going and going or start raging slap a mute on them.
For construction sites I do a warning then a temp ban. People who abuse construction sites will generally block ladders/ramps and mess up a whole round so it deserves a temp ban instead of a kick after the warning.
For ladderpaulting warn then temp ban if it leads to tks. If they're just destroying ladders warn them and kick them on next offense.
For Racism warn people then start muting people. If they leave and come back kick them followed by a temp ban if they keep raging.
If there is a post about a person on the forums with screenshots. Depending on how bad the offense you can just admin chat "Please go to the NA(ATS) ban forums and answer the post about you" followed immediately by a temp ban or perm ban.
As a general rule of thumb, put a post on the forums for anyone you perm ban. IE "Perm banned _____" and in the explanation give a reason. This way they can come on and explain themselves/apologize and request an unban.
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I'd also recommend having a text document or a list somewhere with people that you notice leeching and teamwounding and the like just so you don't forget their names.
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I'm all for stepping up enforcement. My voice commands are largely ignored, it seems, though 90% of the time they are legitimate orders/warnings ("Defend the Gatehouse! Incoming enemies from behind! Hold!" "I am manning the siege tower! I need help at the siege tower!"). People tend not to pay attention when one dude is running around saying "Attack!" ten times in a row.
Why are construction sites blanket banned again? Aren't they working in full order now (destructable, 1 material = 1 material, etc)?
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Yes but people abuse construction sites by stacking them on a ladder. You get a group with multiple construction sites on a a single ladder/ramp and even though they're destructable you'll probably end up winning just because they can only have 1 person swing at it while getting shot by archers pikes and xbows. It breaks the balance of the game and adds nothing other than pissing people off. The way material works it'll take 3 minutes just build a healing tent. Only to have it break after 2 hits.
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The rule list is a general guideline, all final decisions rest on the admins discretion. If you fuck up then your life rests on eckos discretion.
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Yes but people abuse construction sites by stacking them on a ladder.
That's always an issue, but again, that's an issue of douchebag players and enforcement, not the c-sites. I don't think that anyone would have any issue with them actually being used for their intended purpose. I don't know how your bans work on the servers, if it bans one character on a cd-key, does it ban them all on that key? Because it should, absolutely, and with nacrpg.net active it's easier than ever to find out that this douchebag is actually this other, more well known douchebag.
I was thinking more along the lines of building a catapult sometime again. Take down the wall siege in round 1 or 2, it's down in all following rounds, so it's a bit more viable than a healing tent under the current materials costs-rewards given (of course I'd probably be balanced off of offense after that). I'll give it a shot sometime- away from choke points- with a couple people, and see if I get banned by anyone who sees that as in discordance with the guideline-not-rules put forth.
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Well we do know that catapults break the game for defenders and sometimes attackers. It makes gate controls unreachable ect. Anyways it is listed on the server rules so if an admin catches you he'll warn you first before he kicks. Personally though I don't you you can build a catapult within the 6 minute time limit because it would take 60 materials and at 4 material a spawn you'd have to suicide 17 times to build it. By then you wouldn't be able to fire it either. I think some EU servers allow em you could try it there.
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Just a few points ..
We have a 0 tolerance with racism .. if it was meant to offend, temp ban. If it was just to goof around , mute for a while and give a warning so that the message is understood by everyone
Construction sites are tricky.. I usually let the defend team build healing tents when I'm sure they won't abuse csites and the only thing I tolerate are the healing tents. Attackers don't need a healing tent at spawn, that's just stupid. The major problem with the construction sites is that people tend to mess around, building useless stuff, and while they do that and some others watch or try to interact, the rest of team have to attack (or defend) with lesser numbers because these guys aren't helping actively.
For leechers ... it's the trickiest part because most of them will argue instead of just getting a weapon, and their friends/clanmates will back them up. Remind them that leeching = not participating actively in the fight. We ask to people to spawn with a weapon, and if they say they just retire, it doesn't matter, they still should have a weapon. They should go Sepc and alt+tab , get a practice dagger or stones and join back. If they argue they just want to pick up a weapon, then they just should get a dagger anyway and drop it when they get the weapon .. I often "qml" people in spawn if they aren't moving instead of giving a warning because they might be alt+tab and won't see it anyway. I don't do it for the x1 extra, I do it to leave them a chance to cancel the report. I wish we had that option to report a leecher without the multiplier .. many people would stop abusing it and it's a great tool for admins imo
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Yea leechers are the toughest to deal with. I'll disagree about construction sites though. It takes 20 materials to build a healing tent + a construction site. Thats a min 6 lives they could of used productively instead standing around and building a healing tent. Then have to run around and find a weapon. The worst part is said healing tent ends up healing 2 people before its destroyed. Its not good to have exceptions because it breeds dissent and favoritism. Also I think its on the NA(ATS) rules that construction sites are not allowed period so its good just to blanket ban them.
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I see the rules as guidelines .. it's mostly often to your own discretion. That's probably why we have admins, they trust our common sense. (unless Ecko Gim or Gash disagree with what I'm saying, then I'd be more careful :P) When I let people using tents it's mostly when it's a clan who wants to practice for Strat ... so they all spawn with 3 material and a weapon or 2 if they use a shield .. whatever slots they have left I guess.
If one guy was making a tent by himself , putting csite and materials and killing himself on purpose, that'd be leeching as he's really not helping the team, and by the time he's done, it's gotta get destroyed right away or round will be over. I agree with you on that.
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As my admin start on nacrpg.net show, I am leading the pack in terms of kicks. It's mostly Specs/AFK people, but I do apply the rules heavy-handedly, at least until people get the message and the general abuse on the server starts dropping. Since quite a few trolls also happen to be guardhouse lawyers, I've ask for all admins to get a read-only FTP access to the server logs, so we can pull out relevant sections and paste them as justification on the forum. It's not always possible/easy to get screenshots, this additional tool should simplify things and shut some people up.
Overall I think the written rules work fine, they just need to be enforced more thoroughly.
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+1
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Will comment once I get a chance. Heading to DC for four days. Also my comp died :(
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Btw nindurr and ecko made it clear that if we catch anyone deathleeching ie spawning then suiciding /dying and not rejoining the fight, we start with a temp ban. Now if they don't spawn before they deathleech its just a kick since they're just afk and not really gaining xp ticks.
On a side note the only legal leeching is if they join, spawn, then immediately join spectators. They can leech that 1x all day long and we'll only kick em if the server fills.
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Well when I get complaints about someone I usually switch to spec to watch them for a few minutes, and usually keep my multiplier and it happened once that someone said I was leeching/milking my multiplier ... if I'm alive or dead, I still get the ticks anyway so I doubt it's really leeching, specially when we sacrifice to stop playing to watch over a possible trouble maker.. it's something i wish people could understand, and it happened often that I lost my multiplier because I wasn't rejoining my team at the end of the round and you won't see me make a scene about it .. it's part of the job, there are good and bad things about it, but we accepted those terms I guess :P
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So basically if they stay on their team while dead for over a minute (defenders) or 30 seconds (attackers) you should admin chat **** please join in the fight. Wait about 15 more seconds then temp ban/kick depending on what you feel is appropriate
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Sounds good to me
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1. Have Ecko put server rules on nacrpg website
2. please clarify ladder rules
A. can ladders hang over ledges in the air to allow attackers to walk out and drop down?
B. can ladders be put up into ceilings to allow attackers to walk up thru the ceilings to get to the next floor?
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Quoted from the Siege Rules
To avoid being disciplined for this, use ladders in the way they were meant to be used, up against the walls.
Sadly, about the ladder that makes you go "through" the ceiling, nothing has really been defined for Siege. On 100, Exploiting a bug to gain advantage is prohibited, but these rules only apply on 100 so far (changes to come).
I didn't really like seeing you guys using that glitch on the siege map, but like you brought up, you said Nindurr tolerated it or some other admins .. since it's not precisely define in the rules, I couldn't do much about it.
The 100 server is being annexed to the other NA servers, so rules will be updated for all servers and we'll bring that matter to Nindurr or Gash so it is dealt with in a descent time frame.
I honestly dropping a ladder to get off the wall makes it very hard for Defender as they probably are defending the stairs going down to ground level, and it usually gives direct access to attackers to the flag or give a very huge advantage. This said, it is a very clever idea and in real life, it is doable to drop a ladder to get down faster... it is the defenders job to destroy that ladder ASAP, so I don't see anything wrong with it, but I don't make the rules, I enforce them :P (Just stating my opinion and where I stand about those ladders). If the ladder doesn't touch the ground, then there's a problem though, it has to look like if it was "dropped" there and it ends it's "deployement" when reaching the ground. A straight ladder where you have to "drop" or jump off because it's not touching the ground, this I wouldn't really like to tolerate as it defeats gravity/ nature laws :P
Thanks for being patient, we'll update the rules asap
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I think bridging ladders should be allowed since they mimic things people can do in real life. They don't defy the laws of physics as long as they don't float. The way the ladders are designed though I rarely see floating ladders anymore and the collision detection is pretty good so you can't stack them. Yea it does make things more difficult for defenders but it makes some maps doable. It would be pretty difficult to admin since ladders are a critical part of the siege server so we can't blanket ban ladders.
Ladders through ceilings I've not seen though that could be disallowed. The sideways ladders in the wall I'm not sure I'm kinda torn. It would be hard to deal with. Imo I would say as long as the ladders aren't floating they're good.
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Ladders against walls or for crossing gaps I think should be allowed, just non for obvious glitching nor ladder stacking.
My two cents :/
(and yes I realize that I am agreeing with some of you)
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Rules will be revised this week-end and should be ready next week, thanks for Nindurr for taking the time to look over this
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Oh BABY I am -loving- the new admin ban system.
I suggest the typical kick for purposeful TK/TW/Griefing should be an automatic 1h ban at a minimum, and what used to be 1h bans be upped to 24h bans or more. It's -so- much easier to track with this system.
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+1
You fucked up , 1 hour ban , you really fuck up , 24 hours , you still don't get it ? now we're talking about days :P
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i been playing on your server for a couple of weeks and would like to say you guys do an awesome job. if someones a jerkoff there gone and its great. good job dudes
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1- Can Banner Balance be always on? Seems sometimes it goes off.
2 - What is the process for maps being put into rotation? Seems some poor ones have been added lately - do we need to screen these more before being put into rotation? Do you need help with this?
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BB (Banner Balance) should always be on , but when the server was updated it was put to 3 by default (which was change shortly after).
For the maps you'll have to talk to Airith. Check the map section of the forum or check general discussion.
This topic will be locked and moved in a few days... it doesn't really belong here, and I think we shared our thoughts enough.
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What about the ladders that people put down above the flag so the attackers drop down onto the flag so fast defenders cannot do anything about it? Like the one map where they go up the siege ramp, jump over the little fence onto a roof and pop a ladder down right there so all attack has to do is hold w to win. I think it is very unfair to defense and should be punishable.
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Is that even still possible? Ladders should always have 2 physical contact ( ground + leaning on something ). If the ladder is in the air so people drop from it on the flag and there's no way for defender to destroy it, it's really unfair and makes the whole defense setup useless. But if they start the ladder from the roof and it goes all the way down and make contact with the ground, it's the def. team's responsability to destroy it asap. There aren't very clear rules about it, use your own discretion and make sure people know. I usually warn people when we play a map where ladders can be used to go throught gates or ceilings that I wont tolerate such glitch abuse. Nindur is working on very defined and clear rules.
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Could Siege be done like 22nd Siege on Native -- so instead of having a massive spawn timer for defense (where if too many die at once the flag is basically just ninja'd), it would be that each defender only had X lives and when they were used up he could no longer spawn. Attack of course would be limited by the time, if it reached 0:00 they lose....the usual.
Thoughts? I wonder if this would be somewhat more rewarding of a game experience...
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so since you have a pretty good handle on admins, you going to allow construction sites anytime soon? or shall we start playing on official siege server so we can employ tactics
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No they're really just a waste of time that makes teams lose. Watching 10 people standing around outside the walls just guarantees attacker losses.
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No they're really just a waste of time that makes teams lose. Watching 10 people standing around outside the walls just guarantees attacker losses.
maybe in the hands of useless_pug_player_05. but in the hands of any half brained clannie they're useful or at least used to be.
dont know how much material that take now..but I was 85% or so win rate when I used them back in the day.
siege equipment lets people start leading by example and the sheep will follow and contribute more than peasants just running up the ramp to get 1 shotted since they have no armor or useful weapon
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Same sheep will block ramps chokes ladders with construction sites. That alone breaks the game. Yes they're destructable but they take 3-5 hits depending on your weapon and you can stack them on top of each other.
Btw the cheapest healing item takes 30 material and a catapult takes 60 and siege towers are like 80-120. It would take at least 11 people with no weapons to just build a healing tent. By that time its probably 3 minutes into the game. Not to mention tents get broken in 1-2 hits. Maybe if construction sites died in 1 hit like siege shields do then we could let people use them but they take too many hits as they are.
Oh btw catapults still break the game for the round afterwards so those can't be allowed.
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I ll say this once, construction sites are for strats, not siege !
Like ranger said, it takes way too much material and people tend to do nothing useful for most of the round and then whatever they built get easily destroyed.
For the siege server using lives... Noobs, leechers and idiots will waste them and afaik it's more of a cRPG suggestion than to NA_siege server.
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on a different subject, please lower the max players to what it used to be. Once its past 80 players server is choking on its own vommit. At least 25% of my attack animations dont even fire
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I've had drama regarding archer cover. I personally understood the rules to mean no constructions at all, including archer shields. This has caused some resentment and split opinions from the community. Could you please revise the rules to clarify what (if any) constructions other than limited ladders are allowed?
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Siege shields are allowed. They break in 1 hit. At least I've never banned people for siege shields.
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Someone glitching behind an invisible wall in siege is allowed or not? They are vulnerable to arrows, but no inf can get to them.
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It's a glitch , they are getting advantage by it ...
But you know, we can't really punish the people killing through doors
We trust your judgment, proceed at your own discretion.
What do you think Rangerbob ?
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If they're purposefully using invisible walls its kick/bannable.
Hitting through doors is allowed its both ways and its hard to enforce...
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I just learned recently that the Leeching rule has changed(august 5th) to allow people to spawn without weapons(and armor) provided that they are helping there team and have an intent to pick up weapons.
Leeching is a pandemic among the player base and admins will enforce it with a varying degree of severity, while admins are encouraged to check to see if immobile or unresponsive players are afk, it is not outside their authority to kick anyone who looks to be afk. Players complain that they may be called away by the doorbell or the telephone, that is your own responsibility and is not an acceptable response, if you have to leave your computer, join the spectator team, then rejoin a team when you return - your multiplier will be restored back to you if your team wins the next round. A broader definition of what is considered leeching may be required: The act of leeching is when a player spawns with no intention to make a constant effort to help his team win. The point being, if you actively engage the enemy during the map you can never be brandished as a leecher. The best way to avoid getting spanked for this one is to carry a weapon - although being weaponless is not ground for immediate removal if your intention is to pick one up from the battlefield.
I learned this after having a debate/being informed that the rule has changed (?).
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The rule never changed .. it was that same rule before.
You're allowed to spawn naked on Battle, Siege it's a different matter. They are guidelines , not official rules, and most admins won't tolerate weaponless people. Most of them are low level who can't pick up weapons, and people who can pick almost anything, they still should spawn with something in case there's nothing to be picked up. It avoids confusion, argument, and it makes it fair for everyone ...
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Ah, So spawning weaponless(even if with a ladder/ equipment) would still be grounds to be warned/kicked?
So you must always have a weapon, no matter what?(doesn't matter the weapon, but you must have one)
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It's tricky sometimes .. the guy who spawns with 2 ladders and helps his team .. that's border line, because once the ladders are put (and often destroyed) he's useless unless he picks a weapon ... so usually it's better if he spawns with 1 ladder and some cheap weapon.
Spawning with only arrows, I doubt he'll find a bow quickly, and it's better to start with the cheapest bow and change it, then to not spawn with one.
Throwers sometimes throw all their shits and are stuck running weaponless ... they've done their part , but they can't try to survive hiding without a weapon, they should try to pick up something and continue fighting ..
If you use your judgment and common sense, I don't think you'll do wrong Anders. You're admin because we trust you, so it's at your own discretion. We're just offering guidelines to help you, but in the end you often have the last word if you judge the person wasn't trying to help his team and is more of a nuisance/useless instead of trying hard to help.
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You can always remind the guys carrying two ladders that they can also spawn with a zero slot weapon.
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Quoted from the Siege Rules
To avoid being disciplined for this, use ladders in the way they were meant to be used, up against the walls.
Sadly, about the ladder that makes you go "through" the ceiling, nothing has really been defined for Siege. On 100, Exploiting a bug to gain advantage is prohibited, but these rules only apply on 100 so far (changes to come).
I didn't really like seeing you guys using that glitch on the siege map, but like you brought up, you said Nindurr tolerated it or some other admins .. since it's not precisely define in the rules, I couldn't do much about it.
I like how you kick with no warning and start inventing rules on the fly to boot someone you dont like, that contradict what you've already said.
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From the official rules
-Common Sense & Fair Play-
Glitching terrain and walls is forbidden. Use common sense. Floating ladders (ladders that defeat gravity laws) and abusing such bugs or glitches is against the spirit of fair play and not tolerated on our servers.
Dont be such a crying baby .. those ladders to go through the ceiling haven,t been tolerated for a while , and lucky for you if you werent caught earlier.
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From the official rules
-Common Sense & Fair Play-
Glitching terrain and walls is forbidden. Use common sense. Floating ladders (ladders that defeat gravity laws) and abusing such bugs or glitches is against the spirit of fair play and not tolerated on our servers.
Dont be such a crying baby .. those ladders to go through the ceiling haven,t been tolerated for a while , and lucky for you if you werent caught earlier.
Those rules you just quoted were in effect while using ladders thru ceilings was CONDONED by server operators (Nindur, Rangerbob, etc). No change or update was ever made to this post to explictly outlaw them, like you claimed in-game (hence, making up rules on the fly).
So add it to the rules instead of your vague references. Part of being a GOOD admin is spelling out the rules and responding to community when they want clarification...so they can operate WITHIN the rules.
And that was the only time I've used them recently because the other map that they were useful was taken out of rotation thankfully. This same day earlier I saw people in the moat under the castle using ladders to walk up thru the ground of the castle. It was actually quite inventive and realistic (sappers digging tunnels). The ladders are incredibly easy for defenders to break if they notice them.
And if I cared more I'd debate you on using the ladders that way. Its no different than using a 8ft tall ladder to get thru ceiling tile. Both attackers and defenders can attack thru that grated floor so I dont see why squeezing thru it on a ladder would be impossible. But I dont care enough because its easy enough for defenders to break the ladders and I wont be using them anymore, since KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE.
New Question
? What is the verdict on ladders that run parallel and partially into a wall so they deploy faster?
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Imo sideways ladder along the walls is hard to catch. However if you catch someone warn them then you're free to warn them then kick them if they do it again.
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Duke of Disco should not have admin if he bans people so unfairly. #justsayin
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Why would you tell people to QML leechers instead of just doing your job. Most leechers aren't stupid enough to not be near the M button, you're just making the contributors lose multipliers while doing nothing to solve the problem.
Otherwise, hell yeah I'm really tired of seeing admins negotiating with idiots, it's one of the greatest sources of comedy in CRPG. In any other game i know people who choose to subvert the system get banned without so much as a warning, yet a temp ban here seems to require documentation in triplicate.
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i think new patch solved alot of the ladder problems. I like new formula alot, although makes it even harder for the already difficult to win defenders. Attacker win % is even higher with your current map rotation
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Please fix the map rotation.
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sorry for polluting the forum with my spam.
Good luck more lith the new one
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I'm just gonna throw this out there. For chronic players who repeatedly cause trouble I would suggest implementing a system where they get perm banned from the server. It would require 5 previous bans and a poll vote lasting a week where they must have at least 75% of the people recommending a perm ban. You can only attempt to perm ban on a player once a month and it would save us admins some trouble as well as have people realize that fucking around no longer is just a time out.
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Make it 60%, and I have someone in mind to kick off that beautiful idea. :twisted:
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Obviously only and admin can submit a perm ban request and there needs to be a min of 30 votes.
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So only an admin would be able to create the poll, but the community would be able to vote. Am I reading that right?
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Thats the idea.
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That could work well. I support that.