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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Krax on October 09, 2015, 04:35:31 pm

Title: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Krax on October 09, 2015, 04:35:31 pm
This is the list of nerfs i found to hx, if some of em are wrong im sorry and plz correct me.

0.3.0.1
Urist: - added HA skill malus to xbow and removed it from throwing
0.3.0.2
Urist: - slowed down HX reload anim by 50%
Urist: - made HA penalty for HX bigger
0.3.0.3
Urist: - lowered HA penalty to HX a bit
0.4.0.0
Tydeus: Horse Ranged damage penalty(20%) and damage cap(15 damage).
San: Horse ranged max speed reduced to 80%
San: Ranged weight penalty made percentage-based and is now applied before the PT/PD/HA penalties as 1.5x the melee penalty.
0.4.1.0
San: Horse ranged damage cap removed. The 20% damage penalty is still there.
San: Horse ranged speed = 80% with ranged weapon equipped, 90% if sheathed or melee weapon equipped, 100% when dropping ranged weapons/using all ammo (may need to switch weapons to trigger). 0 ammo properly drops when using it all or switching/sheathing.
0.4.3.0
Dupre: HA damage cap increased to 35




Just one of eighter
HA dmg cap
HA ranged damage penalty
80% horse speed
is enuf in my opinion, all of them is to cripple the class and nothing to do with balance.

If you dont really want the class just remove it... dont nerf it into the ground.

against a cav... i cant get away (horse speed) i cant kill rider or horse (Reload speed and dmg cap so i get one shot) so cant be cav im balanced against because they can kill you every time.

against HA same problem. you get one shot. then they get 5-6 shots until you reload... if they hit you need to start againt... so if the ha has a 30% hit rate your dead

against shielders.... dono wtf to do with them.

against tincans ... they stop, present their head and comment i chat how little dmg you do... then write 5 insults while you are still reloading.

my bolts are now heaver than my armor
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Penitent on October 09, 2015, 04:51:49 pm
I consider HX kind of a variation of horse archer -- not a class in itself.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on October 09, 2015, 04:52:53 pm
But nerfing classes to the ground is the only solution, because thats the only thing that makes people satisfied. People dont want to be able to beat classes, people want classes to be unable to beat them. Shield + capping flags = ez horse ranged counter. And thats if you dont have foot archers already. Rebuff HX to a decent level again, dont nerf ranged further, buff shields, nerf qq
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on October 09, 2015, 04:58:30 pm
You deserved it.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Blackbow on October 09, 2015, 06:46:16 pm
you ask to much for a class everybody hate...

no need to remove the class just dont play it and its maybe time for you to learn how to play an other class
i mean a real class, not a class you play just because you enjoy piss off ppl ...

i took some of your bolts on my sexy body and your dmg where decent, same happend with makelele and his dmg was rly weaker ...

why u dont play a normal cav build ? you were ok as 1h cav shielder ... and rly funny to see with your 2 shields =p
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Makelele on October 09, 2015, 07:40:32 pm
I would argue that class variation has been the factor that has kept us playing for this long and separates the game from others. Certainly dealing with different opponents and situations is supposed to be the challenge. Isn't that what the battle server is supposed to be about? If playing only "real" classes would be so interesting, we could be populating only the duel server.

With the population we have these days, I see little point in nerfing ANY class to the point of uselessness, since the player won't be as likely to play at that point. Certainly everyone should feel like they can make a difference in the game, if they make the effort to. Besides, like Gravoth pointed out, the flags will spawn and they spawn quick with the limited amount of players we have right now, so what is the actual harm in having a couple of horse archers/x-bows/throwers on?
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Richyy on October 09, 2015, 09:20:40 pm
Quote from: blackbow on October 09, 2015, 06:46:16 pm
you ask to much for a class everybody hate...


Hate more
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Oberyn on October 09, 2015, 11:02:10 pm
Quote from: blackbow on October 09, 2015, 06:46:16 pm
why u dont play a normal cav build ? you were ok as 1h cav shielder ... and rly funny to see with your 2 shields =p

No he wasn't. He was fucking shit at it. It's the reason he played HX in the first place, because it was an over powered piece of shit build with no counters if you played it like a massive pussy, which of course he did. Still, he was better at melee cav than inf melee. Watching Hatemore trying to melee has always been hilarious.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Grumbs on October 09, 2015, 11:43:29 pm
I don't agree that solo players should be able to hop on the server and instantly make the game less fun for so many other players to the point were people actually rather play something else. Thats the main problem - fighting them is no fun, they lack counter play and they have low risk for high reward.

Also its nice to see actual cav around now - for the first time in ages people have longer polearms to deal with them since they are a real threat since there are fewer HA/HX's around. The difference here is there is lots of counter-play + inherent downsides in having to get close to an enemy to deal damage
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Krax on October 10, 2015, 01:23:29 am
All i see here is alot of QQing about me as a player.  what the hell do that have anything to do with hx as a class.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Finse on October 10, 2015, 01:59:19 am
Quote from: Krax on October 10, 2015, 01:23:29 am
All i see here is alot of QQing about me as a player.  what the hell do that have anything to do with hx as a class.

They just cant stand the one player that is good at his favorite class...

Keep the spirit up, you might be annoying Ingame, but nerfing it to the ground is just bull****.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on October 10, 2015, 08:25:45 am
Quote from: Havelle Registered Voter on October 10, 2015, 03:05:21 am
Its fairly obvious.

Comparing the classes.
Ranged can attack from a distance but can be chased down.
+1 -1
Melee has to close the distance to attack but they can chase down ranged.
-1 +1
Lance and bump cav can outrun and chase down, but they have to close the distance to attack, leaving themselves vulnerable.
+1 -1
Horse ranged can attack from a distance without leaving themselves vulnerable.
+1 +1

Even better; the mounted ranged player can much more easily harvest valour after his team has died, much to the chagrin of actual fighters who didn't get it the proper way. The mounted ranged player can nearly ALWAYS be playing until he, essentially, chooses to die. By this I mean he has the potential to do damage to enemy players while at no risk or very little risk of retaliation, unlike other classes who can have a round cut short by any number of things.

The argument is this: Priority of the vast majority of cRPG players' enjoyment comes HIGHER than priority of perfect balance between all classes, roles, or ways of playing.

You're never going to be able to properly discuss this with anyone in the thread because they feel that the above argument is valid. So do I.

There is a fundamental disagreement in which you feel that perfect (or very good, some people get mad when they see that P word that ain't penis) balance is a higher priority than the overall enjoyment of the majority of cRPG's population.

It's fine that your priorities are different. I'm glad that a lot of people disagree with you though, because I agree with them. :^)
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on October 10, 2015, 11:21:10 am
Quote from: Havelle Registered Voter on October 10, 2015, 03:05:21 am
(click to show/hide)

As i see it, HX does have a slight bit of range, but you are still forced to get close and personal if you want to hit, unlike foot ranged which are snipers. HX is more of a shotgun hit and run. They caan attack from a distance, but they will miss too much and wont do shit to the enemy team. Even up close they dont do that much, i would almost argue that the ranged weapon is but a tool to be able to put someone into a defensive pose that you can then bump them in, so your team can take them out. So the bump is the real danger from horse ranged, while the actual weapon only helps to get the bumps, and good HR players will probably score a lot of kills with the weapon too.

Seriously just waiting for flags to then ez counter them is very simple, it does not take that much time, and it allows for more classes to be played as they are supposed to. You might not like horse ranged, but some do. They are hardly strong enough to be unbalanced. If you are in a 1v1 on flags vs HR then thats where things may get interesting, how you manage to deal with situations like this keeps the game alive imo.

Quote from: Grumbs on October 09, 2015, 11:43:29 pm
(click to show/hide)

Barely high reward, low risk low reward id say. And i'll have a much worse time if i have a bunch of solo infantry players or corner map snipers that do jack shit, while HR actually often involve themselves in fights, aid with bumps, range stuns etc.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Krax on October 10, 2015, 11:47:09 am
I cant comment on how others play... but iv allways done alot of support by bumping. but you try and snipe as a hx... good fucking luck. Most of my deaths are from melee ppl anyway. Yes the class has a potential to be annoing as hell... but so do a pure agi/ath character, or a shielder, or a kiting archer.

also how cant i be chased down ? im 20% slower than cav and reload that takes forever. its FAR less risky for cav to chase me down vs an archer
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on October 10, 2015, 12:38:10 pm
Quote from: Krax on October 10, 2015, 11:47:09 am
I cant comment on how others play... but iv allways done alot of support by bumping. but you try and snipe as a hx... good fucking luck. Most of my deaths are from melee ppl anyway. Yes the class has a potential to be annoing as hell... but so do a pure agi/ath character, or a shielder, or a kiting archer.

also how cant i be chased down ? im 20% slower than cav and reload that takes forever. its FAR less risky for cav to chase me down vs an archer

A pure agi/ath character (outside of a pure agi dagger-thrower or something) still must take risk in order to deal damage to a melee player.

A shielder must do the same, and hitting around shields isn't the hardest thing in the world.

A kiting archer USUALLY has to take some risk in order to deal damage to a melee player; we fortunately lost the Aderyn/KingItchy/etc style of permanent kiting many patches ago. I can't think of a single character, alt or main that I see in NA1 doing this regularly. Most archers ARE able to be chased down.

A ranged cavalry player does NOT have to take ANY risk in order to deal damage to a melee player.

It doesn't matter if the class is subjectively overpowered or underpowered for this argument. It is largely irrelevant. I understand that trying to "competitively" play HX may be difficult. I don't know; never tried. Well, outside of me in 2011 getting stoned as shit and respeccing my gen1 main because I saw Rohy dominating as HX. Regretted that pretty hard the next day. Don't have the SLIGHTEST inkling to now.

I cannot support positive changes (read: buffs) to any class that is not obligated to take risk in order to deal damage to a melee player. Like I said before, you seem to feel that balance between all roles or classes is the highest priority, but nearly all the players in this thread do not share this priority with you.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on October 10, 2015, 12:54:18 pm
Quote from: Sandersson Jankins on October 10, 2015, 12:38:10 pm
(click to show/hide)

No one ever supports a buff thats not directly buffing whatever they enjoy playing. The majority of this mod wants every class nerfed, polearm right swing? nerf it. 2h thrust? nerf it. Archers? nerf. Crossbow? nerf. etc etc.
 An archer can be at the same "no risk" as a HR. Simply by staying on a hill super far away, having a bit higher than average athletics. No infantry will catch up. Cav can catch up sure, but then it would be at the same point as HR which are also slower than other cav. So i dont see the reasoning here, except that foot archers basically do more damage, have less skillpoints spent on riding+HA so they can easily have melee aswell.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Grumbs on October 10, 2015, 02:11:50 pm
Its not quite the same. Archers are encouraged to play as a team together in sniping spots. They have team mates who put up siege shields, melee defending against cav/ other melee etc. Its a cooperative gameplay that people don't find quite as annoying as someone who takes pot shots then disappears before they can take any damage in return. HA/HX have inherent strengths in their kit against immobile ranged (xbows especially, but archers have to stand still to shoot too), plus they can kite and shoot horses + kite and shoot melee. Most archers are now taking strength so they can deal decent damage too, so they can't kite anywhere like a HA/HX can

The bottom line is the gameplay suffers for the majority of the playerbase, and it can occur from just one or 2 players just because of the class they choose to play. The counterplay people often talk about is literally standing by a flag (so fun, and only occurs at the end of the round and even then they just bump and shoot) or hiding and hoping ranged kill their horse. Meanwhile everyone else is actually playing a game while you're standing around. Then add that it artificially inflates a player's potential impact in a round. Give niluk or delay_more any other class and they struggle
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Krax on October 10, 2015, 02:29:28 pm
Quote from: Grumbs on October 10, 2015, 02:11:50 pm
Its not quite the same. Archers are encouraged to play as a team together in sniping spots. They have team mates who put up siege shields, melee defending against cav/ other melee etc. Its a cooperative gameplay that people don't find quite as annoying as someone who takes pot shots then disappears before they can take any damage in return. HA/HX have inherent strengths in their kit against immobile ranged (xbows especially, but archers have to stand still to shoot too), plus they can kite and shoot horses + kite and shoot melee. Most archers are now taking strength so they can deal decent damage too, so they can't kite anywhere like a HA/HX can

The bottom line is the gameplay suffers for the majority of the playerbase, and it can occur from just one or 2 players just because of the class they choose to play. The counterplay people often talk about is literally standing by a flag (so fun, and only occurs at the end of the round and even then they just bump and shoot) or hiding and hoping ranged kill their horse. Meanwhile everyone else is actually playing a game while you're standing around. Then add that it artificially inflates a player's potential impact in a round. Give niluk or delay_more any other class and they struggle

again you try to tie down the class to a player, iv allways played the class as a support class, i bump for melee (this i do alot) or hunt cav... your just talking all the time about what happens if im the last one alive... this is a team game and iv allways played it as a team game. Yeah there have been times iv acted as an ass.. but mostly i try to win, BUT with the increase in reload time and interupts i need to go away to reload. Dont come here and tell me any of you just give up when you are last. again its a team game and if you lost your counters, then meh what you supposed to do..... also one archer can EASYLY counter me.... my horse takes around 2 Arrows.... and its not hard to hit and he can put out 5-6 Arrows before i can reload.... and my bolt dont even kill with HS on cloth so....

also have i ever been rude to you... you seem to sling alot of shit for no reason.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on October 10, 2015, 02:36:39 pm
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on October 10, 2015, 12:54:18 pm
No one ever supports a buff thats not directly buffing whatever they enjoy playing. The majority of this mod wants every class nerfed, polearm right swing? nerf it. 2h thrust? nerf it. Archers? nerf. Crossbow? nerf. etc etc.
 An archer can be at the same "no risk" as a HR. Simply by staying on a hill super far away, having a bit higher than average athletics. No infantry will catch up. Cav can catch up sure, but then it would be at the same point as HR which are also slower than other cav. So i dont see the reasoning here, except that foot archers basically do more damage, have less skillpoints spent on riding+HA so they can easily have melee aswell.

Differences between EU and NA come into sight here, I think.

My experience is solely on NA1, a place where I've not seen an archer that would be able to outrun a balanced build melee player without dropping his equipment. Perhaps EU has high agility archers that can and do kite. I haven't got a clue, but I feel bad for you if this is true!

Even the archers that could break even in speed with a balanced build player will tend to fight in melee, as well.

However, a ranged cavalry player, by the very nature of the class, forces melee players to either die (of course damage is rather low, so this will be tedious), or counter the class in ways that Grumbs just outlined below: hiding, waiting.

I feel that any buff to range cavalry classes will promote popular use of them. Even if the effect is slight, it will manifest itself in decreased majority satisfaction with the average NA/EU1 experience. In a game already struggling to hold many's interest, god forbid speaking of new blood, I cannot consent to any changes that I believe will adversely affect the average population of the battle server(s).

I reckon you'd say it is a good thing that the team behind changes in this mod doesn't require my consent to scratch their own ass and let out a nasty fart in my presence, much less to make changes in their own mod.

It probably IS a good thing. I've got some interesting ideas involving euthanisation and cleansing of all HA/HX, you know...



Edit: Oh, and that first line just ain't true! Absolutely none of my arguments involve balance; they involve general health of cRPG, sometimes considered to be on life support itself.

I'll listen and potentially support buffs to any class that aren't ranged cav. These classes have either a net neutral or net positive impact on the battle server. I've not been a real lobbyist for ANY sorts of buffs or nerfs. I tend to be very content with balance. All modestly-skilled players and above should have little trouble performing adequately with any melee loadout.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Grumbs on October 10, 2015, 03:13:52 pm
Quote from: Krax on October 10, 2015, 02:29:28 pm
also have i ever been rude to you... you seem to sling alot of shit for no reason.

I don't have much of an opinion about you. I just think its selfish to want buffs for a class you know is universally reviled in the community. Net positive fun should be strongly considered like Jankins says. How many stand to gain and how many stands to lose when it comes to game enjoyment?
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on October 10, 2015, 04:22:54 pm
Quote from: Grumbs on October 10, 2015, 02:11:50 pm
Its not quite the same. Archers are encouraged to play as a team together in sniping spots. They have team mates who put up siege shields, melee defending against cav/ other melee etc. Its a cooperative gameplay that people don't find quite as annoying as someone who takes pot shots then disappears before they can take any damage in return. HA/HX have inherent strengths in their kit against immobile ranged (xbows especially, but archers have to stand still to shoot too), plus they can kite and shoot horses + kite and shoot melee. Most archers are now taking strength so they can deal decent damage too, so they can't kite anywhere like a HA/HX can

The bottom line is the gameplay suffers for the majority of the playerbase, and it can occur from just one or 2 players just because of the class they choose to play. The counterplay people often talk about is literally standing by a flag (so fun, and only occurs at the end of the round and even then they just bump and shoot) or hiding and hoping ranged kill their horse. Meanwhile everyone else is actually playing a game while you're standing around. Then add that it artificially inflates a player's potential impact in a round. Give niluk or delay_more any other class and they struggle

My point was that people are saying that HX/HA has no counter, but they have the same counters as foot ranged.

I dont mind holding flags, if such a minor thing can help make other builds playably balanced then its no problem. I'd like for the mod to be viable towards all classes that players want to play, as long as it actually is balanced. I hardly think the mod will struggle with some horse ranged on the server, everytime i see one now i simply either charge it because i wont really take any damage from it, or just ignore and find flags/other enemies. They really dont do anything besides bumps. I think flags are an excellent solution to a lot of the annoyance issues, ladders should be added back into game, since roofmonkeys would get countered by flags now anyways.

It doesnt matter if players cant play anything else than horseranged, if they like to play horse ranged and are good at it then why shouldnt they? Why should they have to play something they are unable to play?
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: BlackxBird on October 11, 2015, 03:36:44 pm
I guess the majority of people hate horsearcher/crossbow not cuz of them being too op (or ever were op). They hate them cuz they simply delay every single round they survive. In my opinion that class can be buffed as much as anyone wants to, but make a rule that if there are in one team only horseranged left that they have to dismount.

oh and hate more. With every round u ride around as last guy and do kinda nothing, you are rude to the whole server. Ive seen it often that like 50 players wait for one, just cuz that one does not want to die (even in rounds which are totally impossible to win). And Ive seen u doing it already on every round on a whole map.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Oberyn on October 11, 2015, 03:57:16 pm
Quote from: Grumbs on October 10, 2015, 02:11:50 pm
Give niluk or delay_more any other class and they struggle

Bit unfair putting niluk in the same boat, I've seen him do very well with melee builds. I'm sure he'd much rather go back to playing his troll delay forever while harvesting valour build, but he doesn't need it to do well.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on October 11, 2015, 05:26:37 pm
Quote from: BlackxBird on October 11, 2015, 03:36:44 pm
I guess the majority of people hate horsearcher/crossbow not cuz of them being too op (or ever were op). They hate them cuz they simply delay every single round they survive. In my opinion that class can be buffed as much as anyone wants to, but make a rule that if there are in one team only horseranged left that they have to dismount.

oh and hate more. With every round u ride around as last guy and do kinda nothing, you are rude to the whole server. Ive seen it often that like 50 players wait for one, just cuz that one does not want to die (even in rounds which are totally impossible to win). And Ive seen u doing it already on every round on a whole map.

That used to be the case, then we got flags buffed to make them actually usefull against delayers. I think people just need to realize the usefulness of holding flags, but too many times i see people leave them to try to catch whatever nuisances that are alive.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Krax on October 11, 2015, 05:50:22 pm
Quote from: BlackxBird on October 11, 2015, 03:36:44 pm
oh and hate more. With every round u ride around as last guy and do kinda nothing, you are rude to the whole server. Ive seen it often that like 50 players wait for one, just cuz that one does not want to die (even in rounds which are totally impossible to win). And Ive seen u doing it already on every round on a whole map.

cmon even you cant really mean this... that you need to just stand still and die if you are last.. how many times have you done this ? 99% of all the players fight until the end no matter then chances of survival. only one i can remember doing this is maklelelelelelele
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: BlackxBird on October 11, 2015, 06:34:34 pm
mate it depends. If Im a melee fighting 5 enemies I won't just go fullretard charge and die, I will try to win the round. But when there is no way to get valour and no way to win the round and Im horsearcher I 100 percently dismount and fight in melee.

And I did not mean u have to stand still, dismounting and trying some melee stuff is totally okay, atleast when there are no ranged in the enemey team left! When there is an archer who's to stupid to hit u nobody will be angry about u, they will flame about the archer!
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Angantyr on October 11, 2015, 07:06:53 pm
Quote from: Grumbs on October 10, 2015, 02:11:50 pm
Give niluk or delay_more any other class and they struggle
Probably only a matter of training. I was in the same Native clan as Hate_More for years and we considered him one of the better lancers of the game. Of course Native is not cRPG but I guess he just likes HX now.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Ikarus on October 11, 2015, 08:52:47 pm
Horse xbow is so weak nowadays it´s ridiculous to say that the class could be conisdered as a threat.

Nevertheless, I doubt that it will receive any buffs soon since nobody plays it and lots of people don´t like ranged cav in general, no matter if HA or HX. I don´t know how I´d buff this class so that it´s balanced again. I think people are also afraid to buff it because if you do it wrong, too many players might start with it and that would be as terrible as back when tons of people played HA when it was buffed. That was a tuff time for melee.

Typical nerfed-to-death class (although I think that the nerf on HX wasn´t intended, the class was simply forgotten that it was there, which is a bit sad  :lol:)
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Krax on October 11, 2015, 09:34:03 pm
Quote from: BlackxBird on October 11, 2015, 06:34:34 pm
mate it depends. If Im a melee fighting 5 enemies I won't just go fullretard charge and die, I will try to win the round. But when there is no way to get valour and no way to win the round and Im horsearcher I 100 percently dismount and fight in melee.

And I did not mean u have to stand still, dismounting and trying some melee stuff is totally okay, atleast when there are no ranged in the enemey team left! When there is an archer who's to stupid to hit u nobody will be angry about u, they will flame about the archer!

Why must i dismount when that is my main attack.... if its time you are thinking about then agrue with me to remove the 50% added reload time. I allways and allways did go for bump kills when i was last that way melee has a chance to kill me. but i need to reload... else its just stupid.
There are rules inplace for delays and flags so there really isnt an issue.

When i was full hx i had 0 ps 0 wpf so dismounting was more or less like asking to die, and i needed to use all the points for hx to make up for alot of the nerfs...
The nerf that really annoyed me tho was the riding speed... that killed the class for me... i dont really care about points or kills. i like huning cav and bumping for melee. The amount of shit i need to put up with for just playing a class is amazing.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: BlackxBird on October 11, 2015, 09:59:05 pm
jep. Thats what I want. In the end of the round, when you are alone against 10 u should fucking dismount and not waste everybodies time! There are actually classes which can actually do shit then, but as horsexbow u are totally useless in those situations.

I can totally feel what u feel atm, I loved horsearchery, the decrease of speed killed it completely! When a tincan 1H cav is faster than a horse archer with a rouncey/courser u are totally fucked up. I think it is bullshit that they nerfed hx and ha until the total death of the class, was by far the funniest thing at all! BUT what I fucking hate are unreachable assholes running around and shooting when flags are bugged/the inf is not able to go to the flag due to low health or low armor. Nowadays it's not such a big deal due to the low horse hp and the incredible amount of ranged.

edit: U played normal crossbow on ur own. Now imagine a rock thrower who does 5% dmg with every hit runs around u in a 1 vs 1 and u are not able to do anything cuz he is way faster than u. U can just stand there and die or run around like a retard.
And now u imagine being a inf in a 1 vs 1 against a horsecrossbow, who does more dmg and is totally unreachable.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on October 11, 2015, 10:55:03 pm
Not sure if theres still the damage cap, but id say removing that would be the only buff needed. Since having 80% cav speed is a good nerf so that other cav atleast has a chance to take you down earlier, but then at the risk of being shot down.

Quote from: BlackxBird on October 11, 2015, 09:59:05 pm
.
And now u imagine being a inf in a 1 vs 1 against a horsecrossbow, who does more dmg and is totally unreachable.

If the infantry guy is on the flags, id say he has the upper hand. Ofcourse depending on remaining hp etc, but the HX would have to risk a lot with every shot (getting close to actually have a chance to hit/deal damage with speed bonus), and if he misses 2 times flags are probably topped already. Killing the HX is not the only way to win.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Gurnisson on October 11, 2015, 11:23:04 pm
Quote from: BlackxBird on October 11, 2015, 09:59:05 pm
I think it is bullshit that they nerfed hx and ha until the total death of the class, was by far the funniest thing at all!

Fun for the one playing it, not fun for everyone else.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Krax on October 11, 2015, 11:50:12 pm
i dono.... alot of ppl have said killing me gave them great satisfaction...
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Blackbow on October 12, 2015, 12:09:34 am
Quote from: Krax on October 10, 2015, 01:23:29 am
All i see here is alot of QQing about me as a player.  what the hell do that have anything to do with hx as a class.

all i see is a lamer who want to play a laming class =)

so ppl QQ more about your class than you
you are just one of those guy who want to be able to piss off everyone without be able to get kill

Quote from: Gurnisson on October 11, 2015, 11:23:04 pm
Fun for the one playing it, not fun for everyone else.

+1
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Krax on October 12, 2015, 12:20:18 am
not sure what your doing here blackbow you add nothing to this thread, and whats up with your constant harrasment. You cant really think about one thing iv ever done to you, yet you presist to harass me in game for years. its a clear violation of the game rules yet iv not reported you for this, but iv asked your several times to stop. yet you seem to presist with this at every turn. its time for you to act your age, not like a 10 year old that gotten his candy stolen.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on October 12, 2015, 12:25:30 am
Quote from: Blackbow on October 12, 2015, 12:09:34 am
all i see is a lamer who want to play a laming class =)

so ppl QQ more about your class than you
you are just one of those guy who want to be able to piss off everyone without be able to get kill

+1

One could say that all classes are fun for yourself, boring for the rest. Especially solo corner duelists, or hill archers etc. As long as there are means to beat a class, it doesnt matter how boring it is to everyone else, there should be classes for all kinds of douchebags.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 21, 2015, 05:37:14 am
I support my HA bro's.

Never knew there was a 80% speed loss. It's real bad when it rains, you can't even MOVE on your horse. Feels like a 0 riding donkey. Hell a 7 riding skill champ donkey is faster than a HA on Champ Destrier.

Total broken.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Overdriven on November 11, 2015, 06:18:13 pm
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on October 11, 2015, 10:55:03 pm
Not sure if theres still the damage cap, but id say removing that would be the only buff needed. Since having 80% cav speed is a good nerf so that other cav atleast has a chance to take you down earlier, but then at the risk of being shot down.

That was 90% of the fun of HA for me. Riding ahead of cav and shooting down their horses. Back when cav was OP HA used to be one of the best counters for that reason.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Ikarus on November 12, 2015, 12:06:13 am
just because he´s hard to reach doesn´t make him impossible to kill

get some cover and be patient, he can´t raise the flag while he´s on a horse

I killed hate once cause I constantly hid behind a tree and waited until he had to get close enough (I was 2h at that point), you just have to be patient

and if you say now "but it´s boring for the others to watch" then you´re in the wrong game, cause a crpg player usually alt+tabs when he gets killed. Or do you stay ingame when you get couch lanced at spawn at the beginning of a round?

I can understand why people don´t want an annoying class like HA or HX to be back again, but keeping a dead class dead just because some people don´t like it is just sad and wrong. And if even the most trained HA or HX can´t play their class successfully anymore, then that class is really broken

that´s like nerfing xbow so hard that even I or ArtemRus couldn´t play it, no matter with what kind of builds and tricks we´d come up with.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: BlackxBird on November 12, 2015, 03:28:40 pm
Lol ikarus thats simply wrong. I can still play horsearcher successfully.. Im never lower than top 3 with it, I fucking played that class for atleast 500 hours (wfas), it is just like that the class is not effective and neither is it op. Earlier u could easily kill 4 cavs hunting you, nowadays u gotta simply take them one by one, due to the lack of skill of most cavs they are pretty easy to trick and pretty easy to dismount, and that is what ha  is all about nowadays! It is a anti cav class. And if u have the right build (27/18 would be my suggestion atm) u will see that it is simply harder nowadays, even harder, but still okay.

Actually this is pretty much for ha, hx is destroied, fucking go ha hate more
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: AwesomeHail on November 12, 2015, 06:55:02 pm
Quote from: BlackxBird on November 12, 2015, 03:28:40 pm
Lol ikarus thats simply wrong. I can still play horsearcher successfully.. Im never lower than top 3 with it, I fucking played that class for atleast 500 hours (wfas), it is just like that the class is not effective and neither is it op. Earlier u could easily kill 4 cavs hunting you, nowadays u gotta simply take them one by one, due to the lack of skill of most cavs they are pretty easy to trick and pretty easy to dismount, and that is what ha  is all about nowadays! It is a anti cav class. And if u have the right build (27/18 would be my suggestion atm) u will see that it is simply harder nowadays, even harder, but still okay.

Actually this is pretty much for ha, hx is destroied, fucking go ha hate more

27/18 is a retard build for HX tbh, you probably scored to top 3 with melee.

I've been HX myself for a little while (this patch) and it was fine reaching the upper quarter of the scoreboard (by shooting horses etc) but usually melee is used aswell (from horseback)

12-15-18/24-27-30-33
one of those values is usually used for pure(ish) HX I believe
Quote from: Oberyn on October 09, 2015, 11:02:10 pm
No he wasn't. He was fucking shit at it. It's the reason he played HX in the first place, because it was an over powered piece of shit build with no counters if you played it like a massive pussy, which of course he did. Still, he was better at melee cav than inf melee. Watching Hatemore trying to melee has always been hilarious.

Hate got better at melee through the years
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: BlackxBird on November 12, 2015, 07:42:18 pm
I was talking about HA
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: AwesomeHail on November 12, 2015, 07:58:20 pm
 :oops:
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Ikarus on November 13, 2015, 12:10:20 pm
Quote from: Ikarus on November 12, 2015, 12:06:13 am
...want an annoying class like HA or HX to be back again, but...
there, I fixed it
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: BlackxBird on November 13, 2015, 01:06:17 pm
Challenge accepted. Gonna respec a char to HX.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: BlackxBird on November 15, 2015, 10:37:50 pm
tried it. Was allways in the first 5. HX is still playable. but ye, HELL IT IS SO MOTHERFUCKING SLOW. I had 30 agi and a arabian warhose. Even donkey riders are faster ...

EDIT: They obviously removed the dmg reduction or the cap. I partly did one hit headshots (but only on peasants lol)
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: bensai on April 01, 2016, 12:14:08 am
Bumping: BUFF THE HELL OUT OF HX

Have been experimenting with several dead classes as of recent.

Horse Xbow has been nerfed beyond logical playability. An archer with 6 PD, using a Difficulty 6 Bow does more damage than a light xbow based off the tests I've done with my pal.

This class is so terrible now, it would be smarter to use an arbalest, shoot it, dismount/reload, mount up, repeat. Trust me the DPM of this class is terrible. There are no upsides whatsoever, this class can MAYBE counter enemy light cav suggesting enemy ranged doesn't kill you/your horse first.

Horse Archer vs. Horse Xbow
-HA Pro's:
-Higher Damage
-Rate of fire up to x6/7 better
-Can carry more ammunition

HA Con's:
-Requirement of skill points in power draw means less allowance of points invested elsewhere


HX Pro's:
-Extra skill points for Powerstrike/IF/Ath , etc.

HX Con's:
Little Damage - My test pitted a mounted light xbow against a Gotland helm'd 24/24 0 IF guy and a headshot did maybe 1/4 HP in damage.
Reload Speed from a nightmare - This MUST be fixed if ANYTHING.



To put this simply, HX is a troll class. Fix it.

Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 01, 2016, 12:29:38 am
Quote from: bensai on April 01, 2016, 12:14:08 am
(click to show/hide)

I was watching someone play HX, reloading took him like 20+ seconds, really pathetic sight and it made me kind of sad. Hated class sure, but it doesnt need to be destroyed. I miss Hate_more.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: bensai on April 01, 2016, 03:13:28 am
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on April 01, 2016, 12:29:38 am
I was watching someone play HX, reloading took him like 20+ seconds, really pathetic sight and it made me kind of sad. Hated class sure, but it doesnt need to be destroyed. I miss Hate_more.

for real.

not to be gay or anything but one of my happiest crpg memories, sandy may remember, is when i first joined frisia:

i had no idea what class to play and sandy said
"why not be a my old friend and play horse xbow" and let me borrow his +3 barded warhorse and a light xbow from the armory

that was some of the most fun i ever had.



visitors can't see pics , please register or login


"This is the class of an Internet Knight.
Not as clumsy or random as a polearm nerd.
An elegant class... from a more civilized patch."
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Ikarus on April 01, 2016, 04:30:30 am
look, if even hate_more can´t play hx successfully, something is EXTREMELY wrong with that class

you´d be even more successful with a 2h/1hshield/throw/archer hybrid
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: bensai on April 01, 2016, 05:30:01 am
Quote from: Ikarus on April 01, 2016, 04:30:30 am
look, if even hate_more can´t play hx successfully, something is EXTREMELY wrong with that class

you´d be even more successful with a 2h/1hshield/throw/archer hybrid

thats the most cancerous truth ive ever heard
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Malaclypse on April 01, 2016, 07:30:15 am
It's so absurdly neutered now that I feel like I should just play it all the time out of principle, run away for 20 seconds while I reload and hope that I don't get shot and have to restart the animation from the beginning. I miss riding around with like four other horse xbow bros, some of the most fun I've had on cRPG as well honestly. +3 Arabian, like 10 riding or something ridiculous like that, just enough STR to use the Light Crossbow.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: AwesomeHail on April 01, 2016, 12:35:07 pm
Buff for fun
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Gurnisson on April 01, 2016, 12:38:17 pm
US_Cavalry approves.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Malaclypse on April 21, 2016, 06:51:23 am
This injustice has been rectified. The Strength requirements stand, which means no more 10 STR light crossbow toons (could still do hunting with that old build) but even 15/24 is dang fun now that reloading is reasonable again. Hope that HX remains a viable gay class until the servers fall to dust.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Torben on April 21, 2016, 07:54:28 am
Quote from: Gurnisson on April 01, 2016, 12:38:17 pm
US_Cavalry approves.

the first and maybe only time I raged in game. Encountering US_Cav on field by the river for the first time a few years ago.  good ol times :'D
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: San on August 09, 2017, 02:48:22 am
0.4.0.0
Tydeus: Horse Ranged damage penalty(20%) and damage cap(15 damage).
San: Horse ranged max speed reduced to 80%
San: Ranged weight penalty made percentage-based and is now applied before the PT/PD/HA penalties as 1.5x the melee penalty.
0.4.1.0
San: Horse ranged damage cap removed. The 20% damage penalty is still there.
San: Horse ranged speed = 80% with ranged weapon equipped, 90% if sheathed or melee weapon equipped, 100% when dropping ranged weapons/using all ammo (may need to switch weapons to trigger). 0 ammo properly drops when using it all or switching/sheathing.
0.4.3.0
Dupre: HA damage cap increased to 35

San: Horse ranged max speed reduced to 80%
-Wanted melee cav to catch up to horse ranged so they can't infinitely kite

San: Ranged weight penalty made percentage-based and is now applied before the PT/PD/HA penalties as 1.5x the melee penalty.
-If I recall, I saw that a little bit of weight screwed with horse ranged really badly. I made it percentage based so that horse ranged can wear light and medium armor with less penalty to wpf.

San: Horse ranged damage cap removed. The 20% damage penalty is still there.
-Removed damage cap so that damage can rely on speed bonus

San: Horse ranged speed = 80% with ranged weapon equipped, 90% if sheathed or melee weapon equipped, 100% when dropping ranged weapons/using all ammo (may need to switch weapons to trigger). 0 ammo properly drops when using it all or switching/sheathing.
-Wanted to buff horse ranged / melee hybrids so that they can play both without gimping melee.

At the time, I tested with a built in damage calc to test the changes and remember playing skip the fun HX/HA on alts on crpg. Of course, the warband scripts are a pain to deal with, so I hoped that no unforeseen changes happened.

The idea that I had at the time was that kiting would be low reward and higher risk vs other cav, but you'd be able to get good damage with speed bonus. I also wanted melee hybrids to remain viable. I recall that the changes were in response to complaints on the server. Def didn't want to nerf it into the ground if that's what ended up happening, mostly wanted to prevent endless running away until it times out.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Oberyn on August 10, 2017, 03:12:09 am
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on April 01, 2016, 12:29:38 am
I was watching someone play HX, reloading took him like 20+ seconds, really pathetic sight and it made me kind of sad. Hated class sure, but it doesnt need to be destroyed.

 :(

Quote from: Gravoth_iii on April 01, 2016, 12:29:38 am
I miss Hate More

 :evil:
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Gravoth_iii on August 10, 2017, 05:24:42 am
Quote from: Oberyn on August 10, 2017, 03:12:09 am
:(

 :evil:

Having players on the server used to be fun. Besides, anyone on horse back was a bundle of sticks so you have no say.
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: njames89 on August 10, 2017, 03:25:09 pm
Real men play Heavy 2h Xbow
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Ikarus on August 11, 2017, 09:48:24 am
Quote
Real men play Heavy 2h Xbow

#bimbsNotImpressed

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Can someone tell me what HX is balanced against.... a glass snail ?
Post by: Casul on August 11, 2017, 07:42:08 pm
Quote from: Ikarus on August 11, 2017, 09:48:24 am
#bimbsNotImpressed

(click to show/hide)

Bimbs would you make an own thread of your artwork pls ty, I'd like to see more amazing stuff you seemingly do randomly out of boredom