cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Realism Discussion => Topic started by: Vaynes on October 23, 2012, 04:27:31 pm
Title: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Vaynes on October 23, 2012, 04:27:31 pm
could we limit how high someone can jump by the weight they're carrying? it's silly that people in full plate can jump over fences and jump over swings
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Teeth on October 23, 2012, 04:29:12 pm
Would be a pain in the ass to not be able to jump over fences. I would support fall damage based on armor weight though. Light armored guys should be able to jump from higher heights.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Vaynes on October 24, 2012, 02:33:25 am
yah that would be fine. just something other than just speed to lessen the advantage of the armor crutch. (and i like heavy armor too just feel like it can be a little much)
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Joker86 on October 24, 2012, 11:57:06 pm
While the suggestion(s) is (are) logical, and I basically support them, I think heavy armour should get buffed first, before you nerf it again, even if it is such a tiny nerf like jumping/falling.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Darkkarma on October 25, 2012, 12:02:26 am
While the suggestion(s) is (are) logical, and I basically support them, I think heavy armour should get buffed first, before you nerf it again, even if it is such a tiny nerf like jumping/falling.
Admittedly, buffing heavy armor is the farthest thing from most NA players' minds considering how frequent and annoying it is to deal with on our end. I'm curious though, what causes you to think it'd need a buff if such changes were to be implemented. Not at all trying to be malicious, I am genuinely curious.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Joker86 on October 25, 2012, 12:22:16 am
Admittedly, buffing heavy armor is the farthest thing from most NA players' minds considering how frequent and annoying it is to deal with on our end. I'm curious though, what causes you to think it'd need a buff if such changes were to be implemented. Not at all trying to be malicious, I am genuinely curious.
Perhaps it's because I am EU, and the heaviest stuff you usually see is Kuyaks. Kuyaks everywhere. I hear their drums in the dark. They already took the two handers and the polearmers. We have hidden in the chainmail area, but we won't last long. They're coming!
On EU, almost nobody uses plate, and considering their cost, the really heavy armours like coat of plates and above are not really worth their upkeep and weight. On the other hand, there is little use in wearing light armour, you receive almost the same damage like naked. If you spread out the armour values quite a good bit, I think things would change a bit. Infantry with their heavy armour would become a little bit tougher, which is nothing bad in my eyes considering the hard time this class usually has (on EU, at least), and on the other hand there would still be a point in wearing light armour instead of a shirt.
Spreading the weight values a bit more according to the armour values would be totally fine, though, to limit the extend of the armour buff a bit.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: oprah_winfrey on October 25, 2012, 12:55:30 am
Admittedly, buffing heavy armor is the farthest thing from most NA players' minds considering how frequent and annoying it is to deal with on our end. I'm curious though, what causes you to think it'd need a buff if such changes were to be implemented. Not at all trying to be malicious, I am genuinely curious.
I wouldnt mind plate armor getting a slight buff. But only the top plate like gothic and mil plate. It isnt very good unless you have a silly strength build like 36/3 or other joke builds. Otherwise you are better off with 15-20ish weight armor.
But maybe it is for the best to keep it nerfed.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Nordwolf on October 25, 2012, 06:57:47 pm
Actually, there is no need to nerf it this way: When you are in heavy armor you indeed can't jump high, but you can climb over not very high fences and there is no such feature in game.
So either do nothing or remove high jumping and add simple climbing. I think doing nothing is better :)
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Vaynes on October 26, 2012, 02:49:13 pm
Actually, there is no need to nerf it this way: When you are in heavy armor you indeed can't jump high, but you can climb over not very high fences and there is no such feature in game.
So either do nothing or remove high jumping and add simple climbing. I think doing nothing is better :)
i would think it would be fairly difficult to climb over fences in plate O.o might as well try jumping XD
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Oberyn on October 26, 2012, 05:46:19 pm
Do you think it is impossible to climb a ladder while wearing plate armor? How about getting on a horse? Do you think they needed cranes to get hoisted on top of them? How is that any easier than climbing a fence?
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Sagar on October 27, 2012, 10:33:31 am
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Tovi on October 27, 2012, 11:34:50 am
But, obviously, they can't jump.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: POOPHAMMER on October 27, 2012, 11:56:33 am
remove samurais and ninjas from this game, then we can talk some sensible realism
i dont think japanese samurais or wherever those ninja things come from battled plate knights ever
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Sagar on October 27, 2012, 02:03:10 pm
Also a lots of weapons, including ranged, katana, swords and other weapons cant do any damage to plated knight. First thing we can talk about buffing plated armors. If I wear milanese +3 and paying over 2k upkeep, make me feel like I wearing real one. Ok., make that players in plated armor can not jump, but then make they receive minor damage from weapons.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on November 21, 2012, 01:04:11 pm
Plate armor should be buffed, at least even more vs. cut damage. Plate armor just does not behave like plate armor should.
Regarding the nerfing of jumping/falling with plate armor it would also be cool if you were knocked down with plate armor if its from too high. Would look awesome :D
Could maybe also be done for standing up in general becoming slower the more armor somebody uses. But for all these changes the damage soak of plate should be fixed before.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Lordark on November 25, 2012, 11:19:35 am
make plate armor guys slower but more buffed so they are like tanks but only tankier!
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Butan on November 30, 2012, 06:44:00 am
Agi char already jumps farther away than str char if you look closely.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Kaiser Augustus on March 25, 2013, 09:48:38 pm
Thats true, but I think the OP meant vertical jump height.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Ubereem on April 20, 2013, 03:19:42 am
Full plate needs to be heavier and stronger. A person that wears full plate would move rather slowly. A full plate class would be more of a defensive counter attacker. Unless on horseback. Alone a full plate wearer would be rather vulnerable, but in group settings they support rather nicely.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Oberyn on April 20, 2013, 10:36:02 am
It's hard to come up with a game mechanic that would make plate realistic. Plate made you almost invulnerable to any attack, the way to beat it was usually to beat to the ground and then kill through the weak points on the joints, under the arms, etc. often with weapons specifically designed for the purpose. Sure there were heavy weapons like hammers, picks and axes made to break through plate (or at least do enough blunt damage through it to the person underneath), and a hail of arrows could with some luck find one of those weak spots. But gameplay wise for example a sabre could hack away for ages and not do any damage. With the damage detection system Warband has and the complete lack of grappling, weak spots in specific areas of armors are just not doable.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Butan on April 20, 2013, 02:50:42 pm
A person that wears full plate would move rather slowly. A full plate class would be more of a defensive counter attacker. Unless on horseback. Alone a full plate wearer would be rather vulnerable, but in group settings they support rather nicely.
That is already what is happening in cRPG: very vulnerable alone against multiple opponents (low running speed, poor footwork), moderate duelling potential (slower average weapon speed), powerful finisher in a group (very high damage output), cannot pursue an opponent that does not wish to fight (need to work with teammates to close off way of retreat).
Then damage reduction (with the armor rating, enhanced by iron flesh) extend the normal lifetime of the player, coupled with blocking and footwork, you are almost invulnerable except when completely overwhelmed or consistently making mistakes, making the full plate class a very user friendly class (but high to upkeep) when you are aware of the ebbs and flow of the battleground and always remain close at hand to your team even if you are only an average player.
Then, like Oberyn said, if you wanted to apply realism to plate armor, you would have problems with the current way of how damage is applied to armor and the weapon type used to maim your opponent. Only blunt force would damage a wearer of plate armor (except if weak points were added).
Still, the way damage formulae are applied in cRPG, if you wear plate armor (around and above 60 armor rating), some cut weapons will glance away easily (recent change in weight of made that happen less often) or do little damage, "simulating" the fact that the weapon didnt CUT but applied the BLUNT FORCE trauma of the strike to the wearer instead.
Quote
(or at least do enough blunt damage through it to the person underneath)
That way we can say that, even if unintended, plate is already pretty tough and realistic :)
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Revo142 on May 06, 2013, 08:41:03 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFSCpPJzfXM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM6YbJ4XpjE
Yeah, clearly slow and clumsy :rolleyes:
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Shaksie on May 06, 2013, 08:59:21 am
I agree armor should be significantly buffed, but to counter this; weak spots would need to be integrated which I don't think can be integrated into M&B. With the current game I suppose you could increase heavy armors but also slightly increase the movement speed penalty to maintain balance.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Macropus on May 06, 2013, 01:59:24 pm
remove samurais and ninjas from this game, then we can talk some sensible realism
i dont think japanese samurais or wherever those ninja things come from battled plate knights ever
cRPG isn't a history simulator, and Calradia has a completely different history than real world, so everything is possible here (Khergit ninjas, why not?). But at the same time it comes without saying that normal law of physics apply here as well, so when we talk about "realism" - we mainly discuss the physical aspect of it, not historical one.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Ronin on May 07, 2013, 10:46:03 am
Macropus you have a point, but remember that japanese stuff was also "strange" to calradia too.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Michael on May 12, 2013, 05:27:30 pm
30KG isn't huge when its spread all over the body. If you are stronger than someone else you will simply carry the weight NP.
30kg is light plate :) and even with 30kg sure its not that much but think of the mobility as well you cant jump a fucking fence man lol look at that armor and think of skipping a fence x)
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Sniger on January 14, 2014, 08:14:18 pm
1st video : all weapon reach animation = +5 maximum, all weapon speed = -500
2nd video : plate only on the legs and arms
Those 2 guys arent stronk enough to showcase good heavy armor use!
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Battlepriest on January 18, 2014, 10:16:07 pm
Why don't we just add mobility penalties when wearing heavier armor
As in, the heavier the armor, the lower you can jump, until you wear such heavy armor you can barely hop. Then, increase the amount of time it takes to get up from a knockdown depending on how heavy your armor is, increase the likelihood of knockdown when wearing heavier armor, or both.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Butan on January 18, 2014, 10:19:21 pm
Why don't we just add mobility penalties when wearing heavier armor
As in, the heavier the armor, the lower you can jump, until you wear such heavy armor you can barely hop. Then, increase the amount of time it takes to get up from a knockdown depending on how heavy your armor is, increase the likelihood of knockdown when wearing heavier armor, or both.
Thats almost already the case : you cant jump as far (no vertical nerf, only horizontal), and getting back on your feet when you were mounted seems slower as you are heavier. I never confirmed that last point with anyone, but thats what I feel. If thats the case then it could be added to simple knockdown too but then we should find a compromise for heavy armor users.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Battlepriest on January 18, 2014, 11:50:18 pm
you cant jump as far (no vertical nerf, only horizontal)
I think that has something to do with the fact that players wearing heavier armor move slower and thus can't jump farther
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Oberyn on January 23, 2014, 05:16:11 pm
So...what you were asking for already exists? I think that was his point. Anyways: add the same speed and mobility nerf to cavalry. Armor and weapon weight on horses should affect speed and maneuver of the pony being used. Is that even possible with the engine?
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Roran Hawkins on January 23, 2014, 07:05:59 pm
Just throwing this in:
Armour limited movement because of its weight, but that weight was most prominent in wearing you down faster. A full suit of medieval plate armour with weaponry included weighs just as much as a modern soldier's battle outfit including weapons. Only difference: plate armour is well-distributed over the body, while a modern soldier has most of that in his ballistics vest and backpack.
And a modern soldier can still jump, run and do everything.
While I can already hear you saying that it doesn't restrict as much as plate armour, you are probably right, but one has to understand that plate armour was designed for fighting, and most if not every move one WOULD make during a fight is possible as a result of that.
So if we are going the realistic way, plate armour would be utterly OP: Despite the weight it'd give less speed penalties than heavy chainmail armour, while protecting from most if not all ranged weapons further than point blank, while being nigh invulnerable from non-heavy hits.
Gameplay-wise you'd have to find a balance in this, but I'm just throwing my realism cent in this realism board here.
Title: Re: All dat armor must be heavy
Post by: Templar_Steevee on January 25, 2014, 12:58:43 pm