cRPG
Off Topic => Historical Discussion => Topic started by: Sultan Eren on March 03, 2011, 07:30:09 am
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Every single era there were power holders and simple people. In ancient rome there were royal people and slaves. In fedualism there were lords and peasants. And even if the great majority were simple people they obeyed their masters.
Nothing has changed since Jesus. Now in capitalism there are power holders:billioniares and simple people:us. No goverment rules the world but money holders. They gave us some "human rights to shut our mouths.
To win you should eliminate everyone else. To be big, one other should be in suffer. That's hateful. Nothing less than racism, religious terror. If they are no long exist there will be no reason to hate.
So i assume that right winged politics are crap. But capitalists find a new way when they see left are powering up: liberalism. Left in human rights, right in a capitalist way. It's really funny that you sponge someone at the same time you defend them rights.
I'll take my leave wishing that there will be no masters nor slaves. Peace!
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well noone but yourself can represent you.
either you use all ur possibilities or u dont
no matter what law no matter what age
u gonna have to stand up for yourself in any case.
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I or We?
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the individual with a functioning brain that faces restrains by other individuals.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0&annotation_id=annotation_439636&feature=iv
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What the hell? :rolleyes:
Everyone can rise to the highest stations. It's a question of drive and ability. That's as fair as it gets.
Just because the rest of us make choices that don't lead to the 'top' (whatever this may be, in your opinion) doesn't mean we're a bunch of peasants being lorded over by some monarch.
The important bit is that, at least where I live, I could technically become a millionaire or a Senator if I tried hard enough.
If I was born a serf in the middle ages, I would never be able to become a Baron.
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Like Kalam said, anyone can become anything these days. You just need the ability to go through with it.
Of course, competence plays a role as well.
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Like Kalam said, anyone can become anything these days. You just need the ability to go through with it.
Of course, competence plays a role as well.
True and false.
If everyone were billionares who would repair your car or make your 300$ Iphone that cost 2$ to produce?
As the system is today we need slaves.
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No gods No masters No country
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What the hell? :rolleyes:
Everyone can rise to the highest stations. It's a question of drive and ability. That's as fair as it gets.
Just because the rest of us make choices that don't lead to the 'top' (whatever this may be, in your opinion) doesn't mean we're a bunch of peasants being lorded over by some monarch.
The important bit is that, at least where I live, I could technically become a millionaire or a Senator if I tried hard enough.
If I was born a serf in the middle ages, I would never be able to become a Baron.
That's ridiculous. You are being lorded. And if those powers don't want you to raise, they don't kill you. They don't interview you on their magazines or TVs. There's nothing hard to understand. If you'll be succeed as you say, your success makes some other poorer.
What's the difference between me and Bill Gates' son? I don't know if he had a child but it's something i can't accept. You did not choose your religion/nation/race/your body/your parents/your illnesses. We do not judge people with these. You did not choose your social class either. Why judge with it? Why? Why an african child do not have a computer and discuss this matter with us? Why? It's not about choises.
Let's say the world's total wealth is 100. %1 of people has 80. %99 of people has 20. And you are saying that we are not lorded. Capitalism needs slaves. And people like you to stand strong against devil(!) communists. Keep dreaming! One day you'll be a billionaire too. But that don't change to fact that %99 of people are starving comparing to them riches.
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True and false.
If everyone were billionares who would repair your car or make your 300$ Iphone that cost 2$ to produce?
As the system is today we need slaves.
That's just your own interpretation.
Basically, what capitalism is about; one guy wins, one guy loses. You can't all be winners.
And what you're suggesting is that people are forced into these roles, regardless of abilities and competence. I find that false, because as many have re-iterated, intelligence (same goes for any skill set) without ambition is like a bird without wings. If you're stuck in a role you've got none to blame but yourself. At least in the Western world.
If we're enslaved to anything, it's the system itself.
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Capitalism is the modern version of Fedualism.
That free enterprising and free market is just ridiculous too. If you have a billion you can win 1m a year. If you have a million you can win 100k a year. If you have none you win none, just keep living, keep working "because the system needs you to work". Work work work debt debt debt consume consume consume. And when you are useless they can just say "die". It's that violent.
The big people also know it is an evil system but they keep saying lies. Because they are the power and they do not wanna lose it. Brainwash brainwash brainwash. Long live capitalism.
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Well, assuming you're right, why don't you do something about it?
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I do. I do tell you. And at least make you think about it!
If i do something i'll be a terrorist. If i do something and success i'll be a revolutoinary leader which American government possibly hates. If i do something about it instead of this i'll be arrested. But i do tell you. If you think the way that i think, your children may think the same. Your friends... you tell your friends. I am thinking which is not a crime.
I am actually doing something informing people.
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What's the difference between me and Bill Gates' son? I don't know if he had a child but it's something i can't accept. You did not choose your religion/nation/race/your body/your parents/your illnesses. We do not judge people with these. You did not choose your social class either. Why judge with it? Why? Why an african child do not have a computer and discuss this matter with us? Why? It's not about choises.
Let's say the world's total wealth is 100. %1 of people has 80. %99 of people has 20. And you are saying that we are not lorded. Capitalism needs slaves. And people like you to stand strong against devil(!) communists. Keep dreaming! One day you'll be a billionaire too. But that don't change to fact that %99 of people are starving comparing to them riches.
I'm not a billionaire because I don't give enough of a shit about money to make it my life's ambition.
My ambition happens to amount to having a good time and being with my loved ones. I can do these things without being a billionaire, and so don't care enough to attempt to become one.
Also, I damn well chose my religion and nation, even if I didn't choose those other things. Illnesses and my body are affected by lifestyle choices, so there's choices there, too.
The point is, that with enough determination, ability, and a little bit of luck, you could achieve it.
Yes, if I was born in a third-world country with no chance of leaving it, I wouldn't be able to achieve lofty goals without enough luck to afford these opportunities to me. However, that's not the case. I'm in a country with opportunities, and I can attempt to reap them if I wish.
Funny you mentioned parents, because mine are a perfect example of shifting socio-economic statuses. They were born to poor families from villages in South-East Asia, and proceeded to work their way out of it. They went up to what you'd describe as upper-middle class (millions, granted, not billions) and had us kids.
Fortunes changed largely through poor choices and they lost most what they achieved, bringing them back to the working class below the poverty line.
And here I am, with the opportunity to do anything I bloody well please, if I'd chosen to take the opportunities given to me.
I didn't, and so I'm not on the way to becoming a Senator or ridiculously rich, but it doesn't matter.
Because at the end of the day, I'm free to do whatever I damn well please, as long as it doesn't directly hurt another person physically or financially.
Granted, I've never been to Turkey and don't know what the political and economical situation is like there, but for the rest of us, man, it's nothing like the middle ages.
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i dont think that any of you quite understood the situation when ure talking about belongings that easily...
you do realize theres no such thing as " this is mine, that is yours " right ? possesion possesions thats just thoughts.
theyre meaningless
all you really need ( or rather ur body ) is some flesh and some water from time to time
the world isnt about belongings.."
if u really needed those u'd have been born with it ^
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I do. I do tell you. And at least make you think about it!
If i do something i'll be a terrorist. If i do something and success i'll be a revolutoinary leader which American government possibly hates. If i do something about it instead of this i'll be arrested. But i do tell you. If you think the way that i think, your children may think the same. Your friends... you tell your friends. I am thinking which is not a crime.
I am actually doing something informing people.
Meh, the informing part is the easiest bit of the revolutionary's to-do list. And everyone's heard it all before anyway. It's good that you want to make cRPG players the focus for your new revolution though.
But, before I accept your ideas and start thinking like you, and teach my children to think like you etc etc , I want to see some real commitment and dedication to the cause.
Here's the deal: I'll go inform people of your radical never before heard political ideas, if you do something impressive enough to get in the news.
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Meh, the informing part is the easiest bit of the revolutionary's to-do list. And everyone's heard it all before anyway. It's good that you want to make cRPG players the focus for your new revolution though.
But, before I accept your ideas and start thinking like you, and teach my children to think like you etc etc , I want to see some real commitment and dedication to the cause.
Here's the deal: I'll go inform people of your radical never before heard political ideas, if you do something impressive enough to get in the news.
I love you, Bane.
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I'm not a billionaire because I don't give enough of a shit about money to make it my life's ambition.
My ambition happens to amount to having a good time and being with my loved ones. I can do these things without being a billionaire, and so don't care enough to attempt to become one.
Also, I damn well chose my religion and nation, even if I didn't choose those other things. Illnesses and my body are affected by lifestyle choices, so there's choices there, too.
The point is, that with enough determination, ability, and a little bit of luck, you could achieve it.
Yes, if I was born in a third-world country with no chance of leaving it, I wouldn't be able to achieve lofty goals without enough luck to afford these opportunities to me. However, that's not the case. I'm in a country with opportunities, and I can attempt to reap them if I wish.
Funny you mentioned parents, because mine are a perfect example of shifting socio-economic statuses. They were born to poor families from villages in South-East Asia, and proceeded to work their way out of it. They went up to what you'd describe as upper-middle class (millions, granted, not billions) and had us kids.
Fortunes changed largely through poor choices and they lost most what they achieved, bringing them back to the working class below the poverty line.
And here I am, with the opportunity to do anything I bloody well please, if I'd chosen to take the opportunities given to me.
I didn't, and so I'm not on the way to becoming a Senator or ridiculously rich, but it doesn't matter.
Because at the end of the day, I'm free to do whatever I damn well please, as long as it doesn't directly hurt another person physically or financially.
Granted, I've never been to Turkey and don't know what the political and economical situation is like there, but for the rest of us, man, it's nothing like the middle ages.
Well i don't blame you but you live in good standarts which you can "choose". And you think so small, i mean micro. Think macro. I am not only talking about your country, or mine "Turkey".
It don't mean that your choice option is no more if capitalism no long exist.
Economically, Turkey is in the hand of liberal, right-winged capitalists. It's so complicated here people is both liberal and right winged. The main factor here is "religion". People are so uneducated when they see their leader is religious(!) they generally vote him no matter what he says. I assume %90 of Turkish people don't know a shit about what we are talking here. When Atatürk found the country, there were statism. It had lasted until 1950.
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Meh, the informing part is the easiest bit of the revolutionary's to-do list. And everyone's heard it all before anyway. It's good that you want to make cRPG players the focus for your new revolution though.
But, before I accept your ideas and start thinking like you, and teach my children to think like you etc etc , I want to see some real commitment and dedication to the cause.
Here's the deal: I'll go inform people of your radical never before heard political ideas, if you do something impressive enough to get in the news.
Underestimating is what i always hear. You are people from all around the world and we'll share "information". That's a big thing. You are not just crpg players, you have lifes.
I am not a terrorist, not a radical. I do not want to kill no one or i even do not want to harm, no. To see a real commitment, everyone should think the same way. We should do a Chavez-like democratic revolution if we want to see no blood.
My ideas radical? No. If you never heard alike before you should read more.
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Underestimating is what i always hear. You are people from all around the world and we'll share "information". That's a big thing. You are not just crpg players, you have lifes.
I am not a terrorist, not a radical. I do not want to kill no one or i even do not want to harm, no. To see a real commitment, everyone should think the same way. We should do a Chavez-like democratic revolution if we want to see no blood.
My ideas radical? No. If you never heard alike before you should read more.
Ah, so it's the sharing ideas kind of revolution. Not the dramatic statement kind.
In which case, can we see something tangible, rather than a set of nebulous unsubstantiated statements with undefined terminology? In short, I want less rhetoric, and more of a proper Manifesto of Sultan Eren, so I can decide whether your ideas are worth teaching to my children.
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I am not a sociologist nor a philosopher. I am just a 21 year old anti-capitalist economy student. My profs everyday teach me capitalism. I am not planing a revolution also. I just think, and share my ideas in this small community.
Capitalism has 1 rival: Communism. I am an anti capitalist, so a socialist. If you want a manifesto to tell your children, it's already written by Marx and Engels.
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I am not a sociologist nor a philosopher. I am just a 21 year old anti-capitalist economy student. My profs everyday teach me capitalism. I am not planing a revolution also. I just think, and share my ideas in this small community.
Capitalism has 1 rival: Communism. I am an anti capitalist, so a socialist. If you want a manifesto to tell your children, it's already written by Marx and Engels.
So you could have just linked the Communist Manifesto?
Sure, it's fine to be a socialist. But preaching it in a polemical and rhetorical form is just annoying.
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Ah, so it's the sharing ideas kind of revolution. Not the dramatic statement kind.
In which case, can we see something tangible, rather than a set of nebulous unsubstantiated statements with undefined terminology? In short, I want less rhetoric, and more of a proper Manifesto of Sultan Eren, so I can decide whether your ideas are worth teaching to my children.
Information is key to everything, without it you will make blind choices, so yeah sharing ideas and showing people things they might never thought about is kind of revolutionary. Of course you can do something big like the "Yes man" did to DOW company, or like Argentinian factory workers did when they were faced with moving their factories to other places because they wanted a raise.
Information wins elections, if you didnt hear about a guy you wont vote for him, its common practice to use media to highlight people they want to win and dismiss/dont show people they dont want to.
Information shapes your desires, "you dont need this, but you will feel better when you have this" is slogan used by all companies today, making you buy things you dont need. Also have you noticed poor quality of products in today's world ? What happened with products that would last for ages ? Its companies politic to make stuff that brakes easily, so the mass production machine wont have to slow down or stop.. cant speak for others but i would love to buy a product that could last for a life time, but you aint gonna get them today.
Information shapes your political views, basically you become who you are based on things you are told and learn, if you dont get information to confront your current believes you wont change them by yourself. Also people are most open to different ideas when they are young, the older you get the less chance to change your believes. So in conclusion we could say the one who control the education system decides what type of society you will get.
so guard bane if you want some concretes, the first step would be
- getting influence in education system, become a teacher (to get more people willing to create new system)
and than this
- creating a decentralised system, having the political party to gain majority and make it happen, propably the hardest of the three(to lessen corruption, and money loss)
- removing global corporations, dont buy their products support small firms (to long to describe whats wrong with them ;] )
and couple of links you all might find interesting :
how stores could look whitout coca cola
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et8UFSNPPmU
man that single handed changed the world Edward L. Barneys, the man that made women smoke cigarettes, the man that made egg and bacon popular breakfast, the man that made corporations make shitty products (or was it Lehmnan brothers dont remember), oh and he also made everyone to thing that freemarkets can only work in democracy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcYBSXgtmKQ
stuff i mentioned about argentinian factories earlier (holy shit wikipedia!! lies)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers'_self-management
i hope some will find it interesting, and as english isnt my first language i propably made some mistakes but i hope its understantable enough to get the idea for you what i wanted to say
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Basically, what capitalism is about; one guy wins, one guy loses. You can't all be winners.
More like; One guys wins, 10 guys lose.
Its alot harder to become succesfull if you're born poor than rich, so in some ways you are forced into your role.
I got a story that this thread might like.
An American tourist was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked.
Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The tourist complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.
The Mexican replied, "Only a little while."
The tourist then asked, "Why didn't you stay out longer and catch more fish?"
The Mexican said, "With this I have more than enough to support my family's needs."
The tourist then asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?"
The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life."
The tourist scoffed, " I can help you. You should spend more time fishing; and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat: With the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats. Eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor; eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You could leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then Los Angeles and eventually New York where you could run your ever-expanding enterprise."
The Mexican fisherman asked, "But, how long will this all take?"
The tourist replied, "15 to 20 years."
"But what then?" asked the Mexican.
The tourist laughed and said, "That's the best part. When the time is right you would sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions."
"Millions?...Then what?"
The American said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos."
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0&annotation_id=annotation_439636&feature=iv
Holy fuck, almost 100.000.000 views. :shock:
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pff, all these people saying they're not radicals, revolutionaries or terrorists. Damn cowards I say.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szNLMtgI7hU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSgcw5tLenI
I love capitalism, why else Would I live in AMERICA WOOO
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Equal opportunity does NOT exist in this country.
People of certain race/status (for lack of better words) are at a distinct disadvantage.
I'm not persecuting those who had easy upbringings merely shedding light on the fact that the liberty and justice countlessly pledged in many of our schools is smoke and mirrors.
Lawd almighty don't even get me started on our educational system
Reguardless. My take. Bounce ideas back.
I'd disagree. There's more equal opportunity here than most other countries I've been to. I'm not saying it's perfect, just that it's enough. The issue with the girl is that she...didn't have to bang some guy and get pregnant. That was a choice. One whose consequences are covered remarkably well by society in this state, and I assume it's the same in California, though I could be wrong.
Over here, as long as you did reasonably well in high school, you can pretty much get enough financial aid to cover a bachelor's degree. If you chose to work full time while getting your education, you'd get started on saving to pay off your student loans later. If you're latino, you'd get access to more, and there are several other financial avenues for every race and cultural niche, if you look for it hard enough.
Your upbringing is only as easy as you make it out to be.
I grew up elsewhere, as you know, and comparatively speaking, this is the land of opportunity.
There's so goddamn much of it.
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I'd disagree. There's more equal opportunity here than most other countries I've been to. I'm not saying it's perfect, just that it's enough. The issue with the girl is that she...didn't have to bang some guy and get pregnant. That was a choice. One whose consequences are covered remarkably well by society in this state, and I assume it's the same in California, though I could be wrong.
Over here, as long as you did reasonably well in high school, you can pretty much get enough financial aid to cover a bachelor's degree. If you chose to work full time while getting your education, you'd get started on saving to pay off your student loans later. If you're latino, you'd get access to more, and there are several other financial avenues for every race and cultural niche, if you look for it hard enough.
Your upbringing is only as easy as you make it out to be.
I grew up elsewhere, as you know, and comparatively speaking, this is the land of opportunity.
There's so goddamn much of it.
I disagree. There're 99 bad examples and 1 good example. You keep saying that you can be that 1 if you work hard enough. If you want a world peace, no men died of hunger, real opportunity equality, then you should design a system which everyone can win.
There's no choice for a poor nigga who born in ghetto. No chance to study no chance to earn a lot of money. People should start equal if you want them opportunities to be equal.
Bunch of workers work for their capitalist, in the end boss wins millions doing nothing. He just financed money. But what? Who did the job? Why they did not win millions? Because their bosses gave them their salary. And that's enough for them. You are being lorded, you keep being lorded if you do not change your mind. You are good now, you living good so capitalism seems just fine but i advice you to think deeper, Kalam.
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I disagree. There're 99 bad examples and 1 good example. You keep saying that you can be that 1 if you work hard enough. If you want a world peace, no men died of hunger, real opportunity equality, then you should design a system which everyone can win.
There's no choice for a poor nigga who born in ghetto. No chance to study no chance to earn a lot of money. People should start equal if you want them opportunities to be equal.
Bunch of workers work for their capitalist, in the end boss wins millions doing nothing. He just financed money. But what? Who did the job? Why they did not win millions? Because their bosses gave them their salary. And that's enough for them. You are being lorded, you keep being lorded if you do not change your mind. You are good now, you living good so capitalism seems just fine but i advice you to think deeper, Kalam.
I've had good times and bad times, like everyone else. Times when hunger was a factor, and times, like now, where I eat as much as I want and have whatever I want.
It just so happens that my wants aren't the same as others wants, and so I'm satisfied.
The fact is, this isn't black vs. white. It's not capitalism vs. communism. We aren't in the fifties. You, above all people- as an economics major, should know that.
I mean, just look at them. Most systems are a mix of socialism and capitalism, because, as in any system (whether it's marriage, vanilla vs. chocolate, or economics), a compromise is often the best route to finding something that works.
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As long as imperialism contunies, mixing systems do not work globally. Yeah we may need something like that, we can discuss and find the right way. But first that evil capitalism should go to where it belongs, hell! Maybe we can limit the private property instead of removing it.
We aren't in fifties, right. Capitalism won and it's getting more disgusting day by day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btQKGvVRnZ8
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As long as imperialism contunies, mixing systems do not work globally. Yeah we may need something like that, we can discuss and find the right way. But first that evil capitalism should go to where it belongs, hell! Maybe we can limit the private property instead of removing it.
We aren't in fifties, right. Capitalism won and it's getting more disgusting day by day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btQKGvVRnZ8
Seems like the lucky ones lives in hell. Point me at least one country where so called communism/socialism/[fair and just system name] really works?
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As long as imperialism contunies, mixing systems do not work globally. Yeah we may need something like that, we can discuss and find the right way. But first that evil capitalism should go to where it belongs, hell! Maybe we can limit the private property instead of removing it.
We aren't in fifties, right. Capitalism won and it's getting more disgusting day by day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btQKGvVRnZ8
You know the solution right?
Raise an army of like-minded individuals; falsely frame the government for some disaster (series of famines generally works, just make sure there's a way to link said famines back to government policy); use said army to blow some crap up, then leave some clues around linking said army to a more political, intellectual and peaceful organisation which you have also set up, when the government clamps down on said peaceful organisation, set some protest marches, appeals, ad campaigns etc. etc. up; a relatively large amount of the populace should now be on-side; blow some more shit up; storm some important building with your army of zealots behind you and take over.
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I think we should all be part of a big controlling state, all countries combined, where our rich overlords can rule over us fairly.
People clearly cant think for themselves and they need to be controlled.
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Seems like the lucky ones lives in hell. Point me at least one country where so called communism/socialism/[fair and just system name] really works?
Communism/socialism as systems work fine on paper, the human factor always fucks it all up.
Untill we somehow solve the issue of food/resources/housing etc etc there can never be a good system because greed/envy or some other very human reason will fuck it all up.
We want. Eliminating the "we want" and replacing it with "we have" would create the perfect society.
The problem is that people always want something, its a blessing and a curse, it is what drives us forward, wanting knowledge, power, wanting to explore. And it is what will ultimately destroy us as a society. Thats just the way it is and i dont see it changing any time soon.
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I love lamp
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The problem isn't capitalism or free markets. Hell, we've never had the later and as for the former, only barely. To the OP, you seem to be under the assumption that wealth is finite. It isn't. True, there may be a finite amount of wealth in existence at any given time, but there is no ceiling on potential wealth.
It can be created through sacrifice (i.e. a man forgoing a meal every other day to save for a bike), and through ingenuity (someone inventing a more efficient means of producing something--the cost is the same or less, but production is greater). When left to their own devices, sans government (or religion, or any other polity) imposition forcing a certain way of life, humans in general are upwardly mobile. People can and do make short term sacrifices to improve their station in the long run--it's essentially what happened with every minority group in the US (albeit to a lesser extent with the African American population, but that's due to what was a concerted effort to marginalize and manipulate them post-slavery. It is only when the government interferes and whittles away at your savings and the produce of your labor through wealth consolidation tactics such as inflation and taxation, or through manipulative and biased regulation and legislation, that upward mobility ceases to be an option for the average down-and-out.
And that is not to say that Government, or Religion, or Megacorps are inherently evil. It's just that they are monopolies. A monopoly of force, a monopoly of thought, and a monopoly of trade. And as with any monopoly, they are prone to corruption. Capitalism is no different. Or communism for that matter (although I would say the major downfall of communism is that all three monopolies are contained within one political entity--the State). Right now, the U.S. and the Capitalist world in general are corrupt. But that just means we have to be a little more vigilant in stamping that corruption out and paying heed that it doesn't crop up again thereafter.
There will always be corruption, no matter what monopolies we choose to replace the ones we have now. And it is the eternal duty of mankind to stand watch against it. For a world without corruption can only be to things: a fairy tale or a nightmare. The first is fiction, the second is science fiction.
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The problem with society is the scarcity of resources, it is what drives ambitions as ownership of said resources bestows power to the owner. Until scarcity is eliminated, we will always see inequity in our society, even in a "perfect" communist society.
We need to eliminate the ideology of "keeping up with the jones" and focus on core issue of true happiness, thats the only way a perfect society can be obtained. Our obsession with materials is what is wrong with economic theory, it doesn't factor in intangibles like happiness. A poor african parent of 4 can be happy knowing that they have a community of friends and family while having just enough to eat. While a rich white divorcee could be unhappy with all the materials in the world. It is this obsession with wealth that has led to marxism, and it's subsequent failures at the hands of ambitious dictators. Marxism, by relying on a select group of men to distribute resource evenly for all citizens, allowed power to concentrate on too small a group. What naturally occurs when power is localized is that oligarchies form, with a few powerful men exploiting the many peasants while operating under the illusion of "equality".
There is no silver bullet for a perfect society, it requires a complete restructuring of the psychological makeup of each individual in a society, not to mention the elimination of scarcity. This leads me to conclude that a utopia is a pipe dream as long as resources are relatively finite.
Capitalism addresses the issue of scarcity in the best and most efficient form possible given to us. Much of the poverty we see is due to the community's mentality (or lack of community in general), or an oppressive or corrupt government providing monopolies to private corporations for kickbacks.
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aye as said above - the basic problem is in each individual, the system is only what follows. imagine everybody non greedy, noncorrupt, community like, reasonable, responsible, not lazy - such people would not need any system to create successful society. they could as well live very well in anarchy, communism or capitalism...
but i'm permanent optimist, i think humankind develops really quickly and in less than 2000 years we might be like half way to this goal (if we don't destroy ourselves before as technical evolution by far outspeeds the cultural one).
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It may not come to anyone as a surprise when i say this, but life is one big rat race as it stands; everyone looks out for themselves, and people in their isolated worlds, and fail to look to the needs of people they don't know that really need it.
Goverment is a system designed to give freedom by taking it, much in the same way someone joins the military to destroy opposition to their country's freedom, but in turn losing some of their own by being forced to serve a term. "Freedom isn't Free"
we as people live on pin needles and walk on eggshells with the unstable economy and the putrid political climate that makes peace only talk, and war a very distinct possibility; anarchy gains an increasingly stronger foothold, and ideals turn underfoot to what essentially is survival.
we hang in a very delicate balance, unlike any previously disclosed time before it; we are running out of room and resources, and everyone is slowely but surely realising that the world will end soon.
there will be no george jetson briefcase cars, or transponders that turn energy into food; there will be no more oil to run cars to fuel the economic growth; there will be no endless supply of fuel alternatives, or food alternatives...
if the end of the world does not happen by 2012, i guarantee it will by 2112.
BTW, i dont mean to sound so depressing, but if we don't figure something out, this is where we are heading
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Free trade is not zero-sum. If you willingly enter into an exchange with someone, then you are trading something of less value to you for something of more value. The other party is doing the same.
There is no objective value. Some things like drinking water are popular values, but that is incidental, not some inherent factor of the universe. It could change with technology, for example. All value is subjective and best decided by the individual, not by a self-appointed "caretaker".
So no, pure capitalism is not "win-lose". The injustice you see today is from the remnants of old power structures that parasitically subsist off of the products of free market exchange.
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Free trade is not zero-sum. If you willingly enter into an exchange with someone, then you are trading something of less value to you for something of more value. The other party is doing the same.
There is no objective value. Some things like drinking water are popular values, but that is incidental, not some inherent factor of the universe. It could change with technology, for example. All value is subjective and best decided by the individual, not by a self-appointed "caretaker".
So no, pure capitalism is not "win-lose". The injustice you see today is from the remnants of old power structures that parasitically subsist off of the products of free market exchange.
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aye as said above - the basic problem is in each individual, the system is only what follows. imagine everybody non greedy, noncorrupt, community like, reasonable, responsible, not lazy - such people would not need any system to create successful society. they could as well live very well in anarchy, communism or capitalism...
but i'm permanent optimist, i think humankind develops really quickly and in less than 2000 years we might be like half way to this goal (if we don't destroy ourselves before as technical evolution by far outspeeds the cultural one).
A fallen is a optimist?
Quit ya jib a jab you aint fallen!
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Two Ideas for a better society.
1. Give everyone a good and full schooling, with free access to universities to everyone that has the skillz. Basic living conditions possible to everyone. food/housing/power/water should be cheap and decent.
2. Keep a semi-capitalist system - BUT TAX THE INHERITANCE VERY HARD or FORCE SALE BUSINESSES for cash to the state.
That way you keep non-competent family members from wasting resources on gargantuan scale. And leave the money business for people that have earned their position there from their competence.
In this world way too much resources are held up, wasted on gigantic yachts, failed businesses and god knows how by inheritors. If no one could inherhit your business when you die, it would be easier for everyone else to "get on the inside", and only the best would rise to the top as almost everyone would start with two empty hands.
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Haha yeah, screw those people who worked hard to earn their money. Actually, come to think of it I don't deserve all this money I've saved over the years, please take it from me and do something with it, as I'll surely waste it on things like yachts. It would be much better served buying someone else a yacht.
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Haha yeah, screw those people who worked hard to earn their money. Actually, come to think of it I don't deserve all this money I've saved over the years, please take it from me and do something with it, as I'll surely waste it on things like yachts. It would be much better served buying someone else a yacht.
People are starving, bitchass!
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Who's starving? I'm not starving. None of my friends and family are starving. I don't know ANYBODY who is starving. Why are they starving? Why am I responsible for their starving? Why am I being punished because someone somewhere is starving.
Actually I'll tell you what. I'll PM you my address. Send me all your money, I'm hungry and by your logic, I deserve your money more than you.
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i wont take your money, the ones you earned yourself.
But what your father made, and u didnt contribute to, i would take a big part of, especially when if it would be over a limit, lets say 5 million dollars.
So you would most probably not ever be affected by such a tax, not that i know.
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So essentially what you're saying is after I die my life work becomes that of the state.
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If you should make craploads of money, that is. Chances are your kids won't be as good with money as you were, and will misplace them.
One thing is the waste of resources when normal people buy a car and don't look after it, let it rust etc.. Now imagine if a billion dollar fortune what misplaced, lots of resources spent on unnecesary luxuries like yachts and the high life. Even worse if the money was invested in a venture doomed to fail.
These resources could have been spent better, if competent people had access to them. Also, the money spent on the yacht could have been spent on better education for someone that would eventually be that competent person.
I'm not neccesarily saying the State should run things, as it is historically speaking not a very competent owner. Perhaps it should simply be sold, and the money from the sale re-invested in the company, letting the new owners decide how it should be run..
Problem is incompentent people throwing away a lot of resources in this world. If these resources could be liberated, each and every one of us would have a better chance to "get rich" although it wouldn't stay in the family.
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Chances are your kids won't be as good with money as you were, and will misplace them.
This is absolute nonsense. First off you have no way of proving this, so we will simply resort to common sense. Why would my kids not be as good with my money as joe homeless randomguy WHO LITERALLY CANNOT PROVIDE FOR HIMSELF IN THE FIRST PLACE. Obviously the money wouldn't go straight to these homeless hungry jobless people who you seem to think are great businessmen, it would go to the state first, who would decide who gets the money, right? So now you're saying that some random state employee will be deciding where my millions of dollars are going. First off you have to be blind to not see the opportunity for corruption there. Actually, that's exactly what happens right now in real life in the form of cronyism and unfairness in government selection of contracts. So why would my millions of dollars suddenly be better used under your system than by my children.
When the system is perfect, I'll allow people to touch my money. Until then, they can stay the hell away from what I have earned. The system will never be perfect as it is a human institution and humans are susceptible to greed, corruption, etc. as you yourself have stated.
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Here is a picture of the heirs to the biggest fortune in Norway, about 10billion dollars, made by a man who started from nothing.
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I respect the man, but his daughters?? I'm 100% sure there are more competent people out there. Best thing would be if the state took 80% of his holdings, then sold it to the highest bidders, letting the cash from the sale back into the company.
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I realize that those two are probably idiots who will probably buy 10 billion dollars worth of botox and still overdose on cocaine, but I still don't like the idea of that mans money being taken by the state.
His 10 billion didn't come out of a vacuum, he most assuredly has several companies which employ thousands of people who all rely on his money money and businesses to stay paid. Your plan is to dismantle all of that and partition it out to "the highest bidders"?
What happens when some rich greedy American or whoever who got all of his daddy's money comes and buys up all of this guys business.
In my mind, people should be free to do with their earnings as they please, so long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples freedoms.
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I realize that those two are probably idiots who will probably buy 10 billion dollars worth of botox and still overdose on cocaine, but I still don't like the idea of that mans money being taken by the state.
His 10 billion didn't come out of a vacuum, he most assuredly has several companies which employ thousands of people who all rely on his money money and businesses to stay paid. Your plan is to dismantle all of that and partition it out to "the highest bidders"?
What happens when some rich greedy American or whoever who got all of his daddy's money comes and buys up all of this guys business.
In my mind, people should be free to do with their earnings as they please, so long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples freedoms.
Amen
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In my mind, people should be free to do with their earnings as they please, so long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples freedoms.
Fuck the PO-LICE!
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You actually do not understand the freedom to have a lot of money is nothing but left other people poor. Because the system itself needs workers and bosses. The point of communism is not about that freedom or such. It's about workers work have a little, bosses just finance do not work and have a lot.
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Really? So the money I've saved up and wisely invested is making someone poor. The money that I earned through hard work at what amounts to highly skilled labor, that is making someone else poor? If only I hadn't decided to make sound decisions with my money, and with my life in general, maybe there would be less poor people in the world? I'm having trouble understanding what you're saying.
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If only we start equal i may accept capitalism. But most of the wealthy are already rich when they born. There's a few stories outta billions of people selling lemon to a billionaire.
Actually my point is about the system itself and the world's total wealth. We can give every people in the world two houses two cars two tvs two computers using rich's money. But no. They have to earn it by themselves. But how? They have no capital. If everyone has capital then there's no consumer no worker. System itself needs poor. People in 3rd world countries or developing countries work over 30 years and still have nothing still housing on rental. Yes! The capitalist winning much much much more and the worker gets only a liveable salary. Because they need to have consumers, workers. So yes every other factory makes class difference more certain. That means every new capitalist making new people slave, creating more poor. This will continue until there's no middle class. Once they defeat it they can declare their own kingdoms.
I am just saying that there's 100 apple in world and 100 people. 1 person is beast rich got 80 apples and 99 people got 20 apples. This is what is happening right now and this is not a joke. Day by day they are getting more apples since they profit a lot, expenditure less. They heritage; their house do not lose anything.
Let's just everyone gets 1 apple. This is not freedom stealing. This is freedom giving to %99.
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Wow you've managed to simplify global economics into everybody having 1 apple. If only it were that easy. By the way, who owns the apple tree in your model?
If I'm the baddest ass apple picker on planet Earth, at the end of the day, I will have more apples than someone who sucks at picking apples, or someone who picks no apples at all.
What you're saying is that despite how good I am at picking apples, I should be forced to have the same amount of apples as everybody else? Why would I pick apples then, if no matter what amount of apple picking I do, I will always end up with the same amount.
Sorry, your system sucks. I don't want to be given a million dollars of rich peoples money, only to go to the store and find that everything costs a million dollars. You should look up "inflation".
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Ok I respect your point of view but i still think this is unfair and it shouldn't exist. Only a equal world would be more beautiful less sinful, peaceful i believe. This is not my model this is the reality. But if i could choose the tree owner i would say God.
I am 3rd grade student in economic faculty so i know what i'm talking about so don't worry.
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So basically your system requires god to function.
Let me know how that works out for you.
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Communism
The apple tree is owned by the workers, labored upon by the workers, and in turn the fruits go to the workers.
Capitalism
The apple tree is owned by the investors, labored upon by the workers, and the fruits go to the investors. In a fully-fledged, unregulated capitalist economy there is no minimum wage, only a "living" wage. The workers are given enough apple to feed and sustain themselves but never enough apple to allow them to become anything other than a worker.
America is obviously not as extreme as either of these two, but neither is China nor was the USSR. There has never been a state that was as Communist as above, but there have been and still are states as capitalist as the example.
@roymorrison, of course you personally aren't responsible for poverty or hunger, but what is? [sarcasm]clearly it must be that they are lazy, they have no initiative or drive or are stupid[/sarcasm]. You aren't at fault but neither are they.
Also, people constantly point to the failure/poverty of socialist states like the USSR, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, China but what of the poverty of capitalist states in Latin America, Africa, and Asia?
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I'm happy the discussion is still quite civilized! :-D
Anyway, what I'm referring to is something that already exists in america, and also in most other countries.
It's called inheritance tax, or "estate tax". Actually, many rich people like bill gates etc are for increasing this kind of taxation.
(couldn't find the exact article about Gates, but here are some other rich proponents)
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bring-back-the-estate-tax-some-rich-americans-say-2010-07-21 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bring-back-the-estate-tax-some-rich-americans-say-2010-07-21)
My basic point is that I'm not at all for communism. Studying 4 years in Poland now, and I see every day the after-shocks of it in society and psychology of people.
What I'm saying is that waste is waste, and large amounts of resources should be handled by competent people. Not being wasted, even if the owners want to waste it like many heirs do. (Either by bad/incompetent investment, or extreme luxury) It's important to liberate those resources so the smartest/best applepickers can get to them.
Also that everyone should have an EQUAL/VERY DECENT START in their life should be ensured by society. What people do after their childhood and good basic education is their own responsibility.
The problem today is that money breeds money, and more and more of the worlds resources gets on fewer and fewer hands. Did you know 60% of the worlds wealth belongs to 1% of the worlds population?
(And I do know about inflation and if everyone had a million dollars bread would cost 10.000$ etc etc.. ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE. Take a huge luxury yacht. The resources going into building that thing, ultimately satisfying the vain of a few people, could easily go into securing a much better chance at life for 100 kids, that would use their life paying taxes in stead of being in jail.)
Justice is not only "What mine is mine", it's also giving every individual an equal start.
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So basically you want to make everybody equal at the expense of the well off. What then? What is my motivation to do anything? It's all just given to me anyways. Why should I strive to be the best at something if it doesn't matter since I'm equal to the worst.
edit: also the yacht to which you keep referring is built by somebody, the resources are acquired and purchased by somebody, etc. etc. I don't just burn a million dollars and a yacht magically appears. Jobs and careers go into the creation of that yacht. So while 100 starving little kids sucks, it sucks less than thousands of people who are now unemployed because nobody is allowed to produce luxury anything anymore.
You just created a whole load of starving kids. Good thing you fed those 100.
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you are obviously not reading what I'm writing.
In this system I'm proposing, your motivation (assuming you are middle class) would actually increase, as your chances of getting a piece of the cake are much much higher, since the big resources would be much more dynamic and change hands more often.
I do not want to make everyone equal. I want everyone to have an equal chance, what they do after they got that FAIR chance they must be responsible for themselves. The money and state of your parents (and in a larger scale country) should not decide what you can be.
(Which it statistically does to a very large degree. If you, Roymorrison were born to some super-rich family you would most likely be out playing tennis with the girls down at the club, rather than discussing with me here lol.. Your dad would secure you a trainee position at his friends company and I'm sure everything would be alright with you. Of course, you can also become super-rich. It's not against the law or anything, it's just that the odds are not with you.)
My point is, capitalism should be survival of the fittest, not survival of the ones who were born rich.. Get it?
And I'm not talking about "getting" the ones who worked hard for their kids education. I'm talking about getting the huge dynasties controlling most of the resources on this planet.
(And of course the yacht money goes back into the system and is not all waste.. But, what if that money went into building a new school in stead. Still the architects and the carpenters and the painters would make a nice living from it. Except what they built went into something useful.)
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This wouldn't truly allow everyone an equal opportunity. Wealthy families pass on benefits to their children through superior education, power, prestige, contacts, ect.
I think your view concerning a rich family is slightly jaded to be honest.