cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Elindor on December 03, 2013, 09:35:15 pm

Title: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Elindor on December 03, 2013, 09:35:15 pm
I know this has been brought up like 800 times but I figured I'd try to do one serious poll about it so that we could bring it to the attention of the devs if it is something the community feels pretty strongly about.

RAIN EFFECTS on GAME MECHANICS - YEA or NAY

Rain/weather is a cool atmospheric effect that adds immersion - but it also adds some negative effects on game mechanics that hinder us all to varying degrees when it is present. Being that cRPG is a melee combat arena game (and not a sandbox MMO), does the community want these negative effects from rain and other weather?

Here are the stats about the rain effect from WaltF4's findings.

Quote
- Rain reduces movement speed by roughly 7.8%
- Rain reduces bow damage by 10%
- Rain reduces crossbow damage by 25%
(click to show/hide)


Perhaps rain effects could persist in Strategus (and the upcoming Epic) which are in fact meant to be more of world simulators / sandbox MMO's?
It is my belief though, and I think that of many others - that rain effects are not good features for a melee combat arena game like cRPG.

Please vote and leave thoughts.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 03, 2013, 09:40:39 pm
Rain is a horribly implemented shit feature that randomly nerfs xbowies, my old friendchers, and people who don't stack str.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Elindor on December 03, 2013, 09:44:48 pm
Hmm, well either people feel differently about this than I have heard over the years or they misunderstood the poll options so far....
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Yazid on December 03, 2013, 09:46:35 pm
Rain can't have constant movement impact because that highly depends on the surface it falls on.... the difference between mud and a green field,
Also I don't see how rain would make a crossbow bolt hurt less, or an archer draw less quickly.

Historically speaking, heavy rain was supposed to jam crossbows but archers never had a problem with this (Agincourt)

Actually Takeda miscalculated the rains effects on Oda's arquebuses in the battle of Nagashino to disastrous consequences (they thought they would malfunction).

My conclusion is that we have to think much deeper and delve historically deeper before considering rain effects.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: RobertOfDrugsley on December 03, 2013, 09:48:59 pm
Some maps are good for archers, some aren't. Some maps are good for cav, some aren't. Same with game modes. That weather effect are the same way is quite fine by me. So ... Yes to rain!
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Elindor on December 03, 2013, 09:49:58 pm
Quote from: Muhammad on December 03, 2013, 09:46:35 pm
Rain can't have constant movement impact because that highly depends on the surface it falls on.... the difference between mud and a green field,
Also I don't see how rain would make a crossbow bolt hurt less, or an archer draw less quickly.

Historically speaking, heavy rain was supposed to jam crossbows but archers never had a problem with this (Agincourt)

Actually Takeda miscalculated the rains effects on Oda's arquebuses in the battle of Nagashino to disastrous consequences (they thought they would malfunction).

My conclusion is that we have to think much deeper and delve historically deeper before considering rain effects.

As a rule, history and realism are secondary factors for the devs in cRPG (gameplay being the primary)...which is why rain effects are weird and out of place in the mod.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Rebelyell on December 03, 2013, 09:52:03 pm
only because it fucks ranged more than anybody else

Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Swaggart on December 03, 2013, 09:52:08 pm
Quote from: Muhammad on December 03, 2013, 09:46:35 pm
Rain can't have constant movement impact because that highly depends on the surface it falls on.... the difference between mud and a green field,
Also I don't see how rain would make a crossbow bolt hurt less, or an archer draw less quickly.

Historically speaking, heavy rain was supposed to jam crossbows but archers never had a problem with this (Agincourt)

Actually Takeda miscalculated the rains effects on Oda's arquebuses in the battle of Nagashino to disastrous consequences (they thought they would malfunction).

My conclusion is that we have to think much deeper and delve historically deeper before considering rain effects.

Rain didn't jam crossbows. It got the draw string wet which made it lose tension (or whatever it lost). With bows you can easily take the string off and keep it dry.

Also, fuck rain.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Phantasmal on December 03, 2013, 09:54:26 pm
Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 03, 2013, 09:40:39 pm
Rain is a horribly implemented shit feature that randomly nerfs xbowies, my old friendchers, and people who don't stack str.

Could not have said it any better. 10/10.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Riddaren on December 03, 2013, 10:49:09 pm
Rain is horrible for horsemen. I find it hard to belive it's only -7.8%.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Ikarus on December 03, 2013, 11:22:13 pm
I disabled particle effects, so...yeah.
 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Life on December 03, 2013, 11:30:22 pm
i have resorted to making a 2h alt for when it rains and i cannot use my arbalest to its full potential.

in other words... i have joined the dark side..
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Elindor on December 03, 2013, 11:41:00 pm
Quote from: Ikarus on December 03, 2013, 11:22:13 pm
I disabled particle effects, so...yeah.
 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

sorry to break it to you, but whether you can SEE the rain or not, it's still effecting your character.

 :arrow: :arrow: WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE MECHANICAL (SERVER SIDE) EFFECTS OF RAIN ON YOUR CHARACTERS HERE PEOPLE, NOT THE VISUAL PART - THAT PART IS FINE
Whether you have particles on or off and see rain or do not, it's still making your character slower in game...that is what we are polling on.

No offense, but this distinction is pretty clear in the first post, is it not?
Let me know if it is not.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Leshma on December 04, 2013, 12:37:09 am
Quote from: Ikarus on December 03, 2013, 11:22:13 pm
I disabled particle effects, so...yeah.
 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

You can't disable rain if you're running WSE2. At least I can't.

Rain has always been best buff for melee STR builds.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Osiris on December 04, 2013, 01:10:38 am
more rain = less ranged :D a sigh of relief comes out of my mouth when i see rain and fog. And im not a str stacker so it hurts me too.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: phnxhdsn on December 04, 2013, 01:57:21 am
Rain is the tincans heaven. And before i used to have problems with rain but now after the last patch i think it is needed, because you can't stack Strength as much anymore if you still want to swing sometime this year, and due to heavy increase in ranged due to re-specs I believe that rain is actually generally a good feature. Even though especially in strat battles having your class heavily nerfed like 1/3 of the time to me and having tincans, especially before when they barely get nerfed due to them already being slow..
I believe that Tin cans after 3minutes of being alive should fall short to rust in their armor and their movement speed is slowly over time decreased more and more until they can't move. :D :D :D
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: karasu on December 04, 2013, 01:58:19 am
The problem is that most of the ranged players will still be pew pew ing (doing less damage, true) since it's rare the case of a viable hybrid build.

In my case, on rain maps I don't have any problem in going melee only, but then again, the agi penalty is so gay and strong... Fighting in slow motion isn't fun at all.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: San on December 04, 2013, 07:27:12 am
This isn't the supermajority I had expected...

From my perspective, I just move a lot slower and the slightly lower damage doesn't change the fact that I'm a slower-moving target (unsure if rain affects accuracy). I don't really notice rain in melee negatively affecting me too much unless I'm fighting on hills, then it becomes painful to play.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Yazid on December 04, 2013, 07:54:49 am
I think it's only rambo archers complaining about rain,
Put 10 archers on the field rain or shine and lets see who does the complaining.
In other words, I can hear them now, saying 'NERF RANGED'.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Angantyr on December 04, 2013, 10:10:53 am
The penalties in rain subtracts from fun without adding anything that the rain visuals wouldn't alone. Being really slow is no fun and the ath penalty is pretty severe (don't notice the ranged penalty at all as inf, because I'm zig-zagging so slowly myself and it makes fighting groups much harder with limited footwork) combined with the high chance for rainy maps often many maps in a row. I mostly just quit when it starts raining and more often than not it is raining on the only two official servers we've got left. And I otherwise love rain and snow, the sound and the visuals.

Remove it please.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Teeth on December 04, 2013, 10:31:09 am
I don't see how rain is oh so advantageous to strength builds, isn't there a percentual movement speed modifier? So an agi build that is twice as fast as a strength build pre rain is still gonna be twice as fast as him with rain. Don't see the big deal for agi builds. Actually getting slowed down as an already slow build makes you nearly unable to dodge missiles, whereas agi builds still maintain enough movement speed to be able to dodge effectively.

I was expecting a landslide vote in favour of removing rain penalties, but perhaps people like the weakened ranged damage, eh eh. I think slowing down everyone is just dull without adding anything.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Gnjus on December 04, 2013, 10:33:26 am
Yes, rain should affect mechanics, same as snow and any other shit falling from the sky but there should be like 5% chance for it to happen, same as the night time. We know that in medieval times battles were rarely fought during night and shitty time so there should be 5-10% chance for it to happen on battle server. Balance by realism. Simple as that.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Angantyr on December 04, 2013, 10:49:38 am
Quote from: Gnjus on December 04, 2013, 10:33:26 am
there should be like 5% chance for it to happen
Yes, if penalties are not removed outright I completely agree, what was it 15% chance now or so? Feels like a whole lot if you play just a few hours straight.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Segd on December 04, 2013, 11:34:02 am
Quote from: Elindor on December 03, 2013, 09:35:15 pm
Perhaps rain effects could persist in Strategus (and the upcoming Epic) which are in fact meant to be more of world simulators / sandbox MMO's?
Sure! Being stuck on one map with tarded weather for 90+ minutes is so fun!  :cry:
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Byrdi on December 04, 2013, 12:57:25 pm
I just dislike the slowing down thing.
It truely does fuck up builds that are aimed at outmanoeuvring (outreaching), since the speed and distance you need to be at when stepping back is something you do instinctively. It is very difficult/impossible to adapt to "the slow down" that happens every 10th map or so.

I my opinion "slow down" is just another random factor that has no place gameplay wise.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Leshma on December 04, 2013, 01:13:41 pm
Quote from: Teeth on December 04, 2013, 10:31:09 am
I don't see how rain is oh so advantageous to strength builds, isn't there a percentual movement speed modifier?

I believe there is, but could be wrong. Seems to me that in this bloody game every malus is percentual in nature.

Tydeus, can you please resolve this mystery? :)

Quote
So an agi build that is twice as fast as a strength build pre rain is still gonna be twice as fast as him with rain.

There is probably some limit how slow you can move, because STR builds are moving at almost the same speed when it's raining while my 8 ATH (old build) felt like 5 ATH.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: NuberT on December 04, 2013, 01:23:37 pm
Rain effects my playstyle as an agile hoplite a lot, I usually just use my 1h weapon more when its raining - it adds variety and should stay imo.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Prpavi on December 04, 2013, 03:56:39 pm
where are this tincans and uber str builds you speak of?
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Fartface on December 04, 2013, 04:13:36 pm
I love it, I like it when xbows don´t one hit me.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Leshma on December 04, 2013, 04:21:06 pm
Quote from: Prpavi on December 04, 2013, 03:56:39 pm
where are this tincans and uber str builds you speak of?

Mostly on EU2. But Strategus battles and sieges are full of tincans :D
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Nightmare798 on December 04, 2013, 05:08:35 pm
Just delete rain and fog altogether. I just want to have my swordfights in sunny and warm weather.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Elindor on December 04, 2013, 06:34:50 pm
I have to say - the results so far are kinda unexpected...just like others, I expected this to be more of a landslide in favor of no mechanical effects from rain/snow.

I do agree that if rain effects stay - rain should be a lot less common...it rains way too often right now.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Tzar on December 22, 2013, 03:22:20 pm
Remove dat shit.

KThxBai :!:  :twisted:
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Tzar on December 25, 2013, 07:06:26 pm
bump
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Mokou on December 25, 2013, 07:47:33 pm
As an archer I don't find that rain does a massive amount either way, I wasn't even aware that it changed damage (because really, 10% isn't a massive amount if you're hitting a light armored target, and isn't a massive amount if you're hitting a tank-y target).

I was under the impression that rain also slightly alters the projectile's flying physics, by slowing down projectile speed very slightly.
Or at least, when it rains I seem to have a very slightly harder time hitting things, and also tend to hit allies more when firing at people who are fighting.

But even with that, rain isn't a huge deal.
It's just a bit silly that there's a randomized effect that nerfs some builds but doesn't do much at all to others. As has been pointed out, maps can favor certain builds, but there is a diversity of maps, so when the map changes you're as likely to end up a map that is "good" for you as you are one that is "bad"... whereas rain is pretty much 100% never good for ranged, but there aren't really any weather effects that specifically  disadvantage melee (as a whole) or cav.

It'd be nice to see, say, a maneuverability decrease for cav in rain, due to the possibility of slick terrain.

Fog is a good example of nice weather, because on one hand, it makes archers less visible and able to snipe better, but on the other hand it gives the melee concealment, and also makes it riskier for archers to just shoot at vague outlines because banners can be hard to see in it. Similarly, cav can come out of nowhere to hit melee, but cav also have a harder time seeing who is carrying polearms and is ready to rear them. I would like to see more mechanics like that, and less mechanics that effect specific pieces of certain builds.

Either way, there are much worse things as an archer, like how arrows weigh more than a great maul.

-My $0.02
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Tzar on December 25, 2013, 07:59:15 pm
Quote from: Mokou on December 25, 2013, 07:47:33 pm
As an archer I don't find that rain does a massive amount either way

Try playing the game, aka playing melee, an notice how your footwork become useless once the random shit effect takes place..

Quote from: Mokou on December 25, 2013, 07:47:33 pm
but there aren't really any weather effects that specifically  disadvantage melee (as a whole) or cav.

Again, try to play melee, your ath gets shit upon  :lol:
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Mokou on December 25, 2013, 08:06:10 pm
Quote
Again, try to play melee, your ath gets shit upon

I end most rounds in melee without a weapon where the only thing keeping me alive is dodging via athletics, and I can't say I've ever noticed a serious shift.

Perhaps because everyone is slightly slowed down by rain, so the overall effect of it isn't very noticeable?
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Tzar on December 25, 2013, 08:19:03 pm
I dunno your ath, but everything over 5 ath seems to be useless.

So if you have like 8 ath you feel like your wasted your points.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Mokou on December 25, 2013, 08:31:04 pm
Quote from: Tzar on December 25, 2013, 08:19:03 pm
I dunno your ath, but everything over 5 ath seems to be useless.

So if you have like 8 ath you feel like your wasted your points.

I use 7 ath, in basically no armor, but 30 weight from arrows (prior to dropping them, obviously).
It's also possible I just don't notice the difference in movement speed because I'm used to being outrun by things like shielders anyway.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: karasu on December 25, 2013, 10:47:41 pm
From what I see lately and experience myself, is that when rain pops in, server pop decreases.  I'm pretty sure this is unwanted.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Tzar on December 25, 2013, 10:49:56 pm
Only class that benefits from this is cav, everyone else gets penalties....

Remove it penalties plz... Since when has cRPG been realistic?? LOL  :!:  :lol:
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Tzar on December 26, 2013, 11:45:43 am
So................. Could we get  a reason why its implemented  :?:
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Kafein on December 26, 2013, 12:46:56 pm
What about a compromise ? We don't remove all effects of rain : no more movement speed malus, because that was truly bullshit, but the other malus stay. And also, constant rain.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Riddaren on February 07, 2014, 12:23:38 am
Remove rain already. It makes the game so damn slow it becomes unplayable almost.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Sir_Wonka on February 07, 2014, 05:46:00 am
Doesnt cav get a move speed decrease in rain? Maybe its just me but my rouncey seems to perform less favorably in rain/snow
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Dionysus on February 07, 2014, 06:43:06 am
Why did I ever vote yes? What was I thinking??

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Dooz on February 07, 2014, 06:52:46 am
+500 remove armor weight penalties and damage variations of different weapons asap please
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Mae. on February 07, 2014, 07:38:49 pm
should do a poll on fog, seeing as there's a mod to remove it and i'm sure most ranged have done so, why have it?
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Kalp on February 07, 2014, 07:41:20 pm
Quote from: maeday on February 07, 2014, 07:38:49 pm
should do a poll on fog, seeing as there's a mod to remove it and i'm sure most ranged have done so, why have it?
ban them
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Corsair831 on February 07, 2014, 08:34:42 pm
game starts raining.

kdr's of all str tincans triple.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Hirlok on February 07, 2014, 08:54:06 pm
I (as archer) am all for keeping the effects in place - IF the fucked up weather rotation is fixed already, as discussed another 800 times. Nofuckingbody was battling when it was dark and/or terrible weather, and the percentage of BS weather should be drastically reduced.

But IF it rains or has fog, this should affect gameplay a lot (even more than now, if you ask me), and measures should be in place to prevent anti-fog/anti-night/anti-rain cheating
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Leesin on February 07, 2014, 11:08:39 pm
I like fog myself but don't see the point of it when there are a ton of people who don't see the fog. Rain? well I'm on the fence because whilst I do like different weathers, I don't see the fairness in rain when CRPG is balanced w/o weather in mind, leaving ranged and agility builds nerfed for that map and also a lot of people also have the visual effects of rain turned off so w/e. Also fuck night time.
Title: Re: Rain Effects - Serious Poll
Post by: Waylit on February 08, 2014, 12:56:02 am
I would normally grudgingly accept rain mechanics, but the most recent patch makes ranged completely fucked during rain.  The problem is that rain happens A LOT imo.  For sometimes maps in a row.

Now, if this was a realism/teamplay game I wouldn't mind.  But this is a game where the playerbases response to Random Plains (sunshine) is to bitch en masse and cry for the admin to change the map to ARENA rather than deal with the situation. 

So if that's the spirit of the age, get rid of rain and let ranged have its challenges be consistent.