Melee: Battlegrounds => General => Topic started by: Gravoth_iii on November 12, 2014, 01:55:02 pm
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 12, 2014, 01:55:02 pm
Any chance of a mechanic that will kind of resemble a dodge, like a jump to the side in order to position yourself better when fighting multiple enemies? Current cRPG uses athletics and pure movement speed for all kinds of positioning, i'd like to see a game that has very similar combat movespeeds (where armor/weapon weight would be the only factor in movespeeds), but having a high amount of a stat that would resemble athletics in crpg, makes you able to dodge more often, and sprint faster when running straight.
Being a darksouls freak, i love dodging mechanics, rolls and all that jazz, it just adds a really nice layer of defensive play.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Teeth on November 12, 2014, 05:38:37 pm
I doubt he wants rolling in, but something like a quick sideways or backwards step could be nice. That is the worst looking aspect of Warband in my opinion, the constant WASD-ing everywhere regardless of what your body is doing. Perhaps a better looking combat system can be created by having relatively slow movement default WASD movement when in defensive and attack postures, and have specific steps you can do to complement an attack or block or attempt a dodge. I would love timing and positioning to play a bigger role than with Warband's retarded loldancing.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 12, 2014, 06:17:07 pm
IMO one of the best things about crpg and warband is that the battlefield isnt full of flipping ninjas or rolling heroes. It's the reason warband battlefields look so relatively immersive. It's a good mechanic for a single-player Rpg that has no regard for realism or 'good' looking medieval combat, and is designed with boss-fight mechanics in mind. Keep that shit in a single-player campaign or duel, but not on the battlefield.
Like Teeth said, a side step does not remove from the immersion any more than a ninja backepeddaling faster than someone can walk forward. Also crpg already has rolling, didnt remove anything from the immersion imo although it looks ridiculous.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 12, 2014, 06:44:23 pm
It's the distinction between a team game and a rambo game. Imagine a battlefield like the actual good strategus battles but where everyone has special 'dodge' or 'dash' moves. Yes, like that rolling mechanic we have now -.-
I dont know if melee battlegrounds has chosen whether the emphasis will be duel-orientated or battlefield, in my mind doing both requires a compromise on the mechanics for both; if the battlefield was full of 2hand jedi duelists leaping and dodging about then that would look shit, if dueling was static or involved the same 'loldancing' as Warband then it'd be 2dimensional aswell.
"good strategus battles" this exists? why strat battles in particular? The game never was very immersive if thats the point you are trying to prove, i always thought it more arcadey and skill based, i never really felt like in an actual battle or anything. Skill based gameplay is what i want, and changing up how movements and positioning works could potentially improve the gameplay imo.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Jacko on November 12, 2014, 07:56:43 pm
Movement mechanics are something we've been discussing lately and definitely something we want to expand upon. Combat rolls don't fit the game, but stuff like side stepping certainly does. Smaller more precise mechanics fit thematically with the scale we are aiming for.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Smoothrich on November 12, 2014, 11:46:51 pm
"good strategus battles" this exists? why strat battles in particular? The game never was very immersive if thats the point you are trying to prove, i always thought it more arcadey and skill based, i never really felt like in an actual battle or anything. Skill based gameplay is what i want, and changing up how movements and positioning works could potentially improve the gameplay imo.
I think its more that Strategus is just objective-based with some really good maps for it. Field battles where teams fight over holding an OP hill that they can fortify, spending an hour demolishing a castlle while defenders all spam xbows then just pure carnage on walls and over rubble, desert maps where teams with the best cav and ranged mercs just slaughter everyone and get to have fun over heavy infantry's expense (just like irl)
You don't get that, ever, with shitty counter-strike one life pub star battle gameplay, but you do with Strategus's domination/conquest mechanics. Why I hope Melee: BG has a good but faster-paced and simpler mode for this, like a Battlefield game "Rush" type or something. Both teams take turns defending some pro siege map where defenders have to fall back further into the castle, and open flatter maps for Domination type, mix these maps/gametypes up on official servers.
Maps, rotations, gametypes, any info you can give on those?
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Teeth on November 13, 2014, 12:18:45 pm
It's the distinction between a team game and a rambo game. Imagine a battlefield like the actual good strategus battles but where everyone has special 'dodge' or 'dash' moves. Yes, like that rolling mechanic we have now -.-
I dont know if melee battlegrounds has chosen whether the emphasis will be duel-orientated or battlefield, in my mind doing both requires a compromise on the mechanics for both; if the battlefield was full of 2hand jedi duelists leaping and dodging about then that would look shit, if dueling was static or involved the same 'loldancing' as Warband then it'd be 2dimensional aswell.
No it's not. I am literally talking about a quick 1 meter step in any direction, which is completely doable in real life and will look less unrealistic than the derpy movement stuff that is in Warband now. Such a thing is useful in any situation, be it duel or group fights. Having movement stuff that you need to think of using correctly just adds an extra layer of depth to break up the block-attack cycle. Having mostly consistent movement speeds like in Warband really makes ganking and duelling boring and unsurprising if you ask me, all the movement I do is mostly muscle memory. Slower base movement with the addition of quick steps makes the combat look way more realistic than now, and has the potential to be way deeper in both group and duel situations.
You don't get that, ever, with shitty counter-strike one life pub star battle gameplay, but you do with Strategus's domination/conquest mechanics.
I think a skill-based game benefits a lot from having a no-respawn game mode. It simply encourages skillfull and solid play instead of high risk, high reward play like in Strat battles. You might not want to overstate the perceived superiority of Strat battles over Battle. I most of my clan prefers Battle. I think Battle still allows for the most diverse set of viable playstyles, because surviving is important. Which probably makes it the best game mode currently available, which is why balance is also based mainly on Battle. I am not saying that a better game mode cannot be designed, but Strat definitely isn't it.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Umbra on November 13, 2014, 12:24:51 pm
Problem is, its hard to pull of any kind of quick sidstep mechanic without it looking derpy. And if you implement it, people will use it, all the time, or any time they can if you restrict it somehow. The whole battlefield will be a sidestep derp fest. If anyone played Man at Arms in Chivalry you should know what i mean.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 13, 2014, 01:05:17 pm
Problem is, its hard to pull of any kind of quick sidstep mechanic without it looking derpy. And if you implement it, people will use it, all the time, or any time they can if you restrict it somehow. The whole battlefield will be a sidestep derp fest. If anyone played Man at Arms in Chivalry you should know what i mean.
Well sure it should have some cooldown, 5 seconds or so and with every point of athletics for example it goes down by 0.2 seconds. The animation could be like ducking your head forward a bit and taking a big step to the side, in my mind that would look decent and not too silly even when being spammed. It could also be used only after performing a successful block, this way it would only be used in actual combat. If there was no real backstep then this would also remove s-key heroes which everyone seems to hate for some reason.
Even if it would look derpy, it would be funny at first using it all the time, but then people get used to it and forget about it looking silly etc.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: jtobiasm on November 13, 2014, 05:21:45 pm
You shouldn't have the ability to dash 1 meter in any direction, this aint chivalry
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Teeth on November 13, 2014, 05:29:28 pm
Even if it would look derpy, it would be funny at first using it all the time, but then people get used to it and forget about it looking silly etc.
People seem to be completely oblivious that Warband's movement while fighting doesn't look realistic at all. To a fresh viewer, the constant strafing which is completely disconnected from attacking, looks retarded and nothing like anything resembling real combat.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: jtobiasm on November 13, 2014, 05:34:53 pm
Stand up, try to do a quick 1 meter step. How is the concept so difficult to grasp?
I think if a swords coming at me 1 meter waint stop a guy killing me unless it's a stab. Pretty pointless mechanic.
oh yeah forgot, brb gunna dash 1 meter carrying a sword and wearing armour
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Teeth on November 13, 2014, 05:54:18 pm
How can you not picture a bunch of situations where moving one meter quickly in any direction helps you avoid the attack? Just look up some HEMA fighting or something, see how they move slowly until they attack or get attacked and then use big steps to try to create an advantage? Do you also see how they aren't constinously strafing at a constant speed regardless of what they are doing like in Warband? And yes, you can do this as well in armour and when armed, as I do not doubt many videos demonstrate.
The sooner everybody stops regarding Warband as the epitome of what is possible with a Medieval combat system, the earlier this game might actually become something better than a Warband 1.2. I would like to see slower movement speeds when in combat, with the ability to trigger quick steps, possibly tying in with whatever stamina system the devs have decided on. Warband's movement system is pretty crappy.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Micah on November 13, 2014, 05:57:51 pm
id like some dashing move option, eventhough i believe it will end up in heavy exploiting and tears ...
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: jtobiasm on November 13, 2014, 06:10:19 pm
1) How can you not picture a bunch of situations where moving one meter quickly in any direction helps you avoid the attack? Just look up some HEMA fighting or something, see how they move slowly until they attack or get attacked and then use big steps to try to create an advantage? Do you also see how they aren't constinously strafing at a constant speed regardless of what they are doing like in Warband? And yes, you can do this as well in armour and when armed, as I do not doubt many videos demonstrate.
The sooner everybody stops regarding Warband as the epitome of what is possible with a Medieval combat system, the earlier this game might actually become something better than a Warband 1.2. I would like to see slower movement speeds when in combat, with the ability to trigger quick steps, possibly tying in with whatever stamina system the devs have decided on. Warband's movement system is pretty crappy.
1) Dun't watch HEMA fighting kinda beta tbh 2) Slower movement in combat speed +1 3) Quick step shit, is a noooo from me dun't know anygame what has a stamina system what works apart from fifa
das it mane
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 13, 2014, 06:16:37 pm
1) Dun't watch HEMA fighting kinda beta tbh 2) Slower movement in combat speed +1 3) Quick step shit, is a noooo from me dun't know anygame what has a stamina system what works apart from fifa
das it mane
Only slowing down the game without adding anything else to make movement and maneuvers a bigger thing compared to simply not fighting untill you see a single target sounds like shit, combat needs to be skill based and quite fast paced, and having a dodge/quickstep would probably add this.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: jtobiasm on November 13, 2014, 06:30:32 pm
Only slowing down the game without adding anything else to make movement and maneuvers a bigger thing compared to simply not fighting untill you see a single target sounds like shit, combat needs to be skill based and quite fast paced, and having a dodge/quickstep would probably add this.
cba blocking so im gunna just dodge every swing
yepp that makes it much more skillful
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Teeth on November 13, 2014, 07:15:23 pm
Because dodging isn't by definition morally inferior to blocking. If you correctly react to an opponents swing by sidestepping out of the way, how does that take so much less skill than blocking it? One of the reasons why there are endless block-attack fights in Warband is because movement is so inconsequential and predictable.
Currently in Warband there are 50-100 players running around eachother at a constant 10-15 kmp/h while doing attacks and blocks. This looks absolutely retarded if you have any objective ability of looking at it and comparing it to anything that resembles realistic combat. Way more retarded than having 50-100 players shuffling around at a slow pace, doing quick steps when they attack or defend. It's not a rambo move, it's a simple directional step.
If you want you could compare it to people boxing in Warband and people boxing in real-life if it is so hard to imagine for you. In Warband they would be constantly strafing in retarded patterns which looks absolutely nonsensical. In boxing they would be moving slowly, only moving faster when attacking or defending. They are able to step back and forth and from side to side quickly, throwing their body around to avoid hits or create openings. And guess what, footwork is an important part of skill in boxing. You could also have an automatic system which makes you do sensible steps when attacking or defending, but that requires complex animations and takes away control.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 13, 2014, 07:19:20 pm
You keep saying you want it skillbased, how does a mechanic that obviously lends itself to dodge-attack, dodge-attack without pressing right mouse button to block have anything to do with skill? The 'skill' element from this game sounds like it comes from additional attack directions and block directions, wanting something agi-whores can do so they dont need to block sounds more like wanting to avoid any form of skill or difficulty in combat.
Realism is meh, not arguing that because no game can capture the full spectrum of human movement in melee combat, but just remember that any 'rambo' move you want for your character will be available to every character, 50-100/200 characters all dashing and sidestepping. Dear god no.
Oh here it comes, you just hate agiwhores and mobility in itself dont you. I never said it would dodge attacks completely, i said it would help with positioning yourself, these are completely different things. I also mentioned a cooldown that would make it not usable after every attack, more like every second or third attack. I also mentioned how you should possible only be able to use it after a successful block, so it would be attack-block-reposition.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Utrakil on November 13, 2014, 07:26:20 pm
I like the Idea of some sidesteps but what is it with cooldown cooldown is one of the most retarded things. either I am able to do something or I am not. but It is completely nonsense to do something and then wait 5 sec before I can do it again. If there is some staminasystem it will prevent from exzessive use of one of those dodging/sidestepping moves. maybe any movement could be slower afterwards so you pay for what you gained before. Any feature that is well implemented does't need a cooldown.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: lombardsoup on November 13, 2014, 07:29:59 pm
No stamina, no easily abused sidestep. This isn't Chiv, don't turn this into it
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 13, 2014, 07:33:19 pm
Doesnt have to be abused, what kind of abuse do you mean anyways? just using it multiple times?
Do we need another means to kite?
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: jtobiasm on November 13, 2014, 07:55:58 pm
how you can compare boxing IRL to a medieval game is beyond me.
just gunna quote Floyd Mayweather - The Best Ever
"I don’t duck or dodge anybody" oh wait just gunna use this new 1 meter dash and run away from being ganked.
brb boxers wear 0 armour apart from a box and a gum shield brb knights are wearing plate brb boxers can take more than a few hits and still dash 1 meter brb i'm gunna stab someone with a 2her a few times and hes gunna dash 1 meter
brb teeth is comparing a boxing to a medievil video game brb Floyd Mayweather is till the best ever 47-0 #TBE #TMT
brb teeth doesn't like getting hit = teeth has good footwork = great defense = The best defensive boxer ever = Floyd Mayweather
AHHHHHHHHH thats why you compare boxing to C-RPG TEETH = Floyd mayweather???
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: jtobiasm on November 13, 2014, 07:56:53 pm
this song was made for you teeth
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: lombardsoup on November 13, 2014, 08:11:18 pm
It wouldnt be used to kite, it would be used for positioning, keeping 1 enemy infront of you and the other behind him so that both wont swing at you at the same time. Basic crpg footwork but in a different way.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Falka on November 13, 2014, 09:09:07 pm
It simply encourages skillfull and solid play instead of high risk, high reward play like in Strat battles. You might not want to overstate the perceived superiority of Strat battles over Battle. I most of my clan prefers Battle. I think Battle still allows for the most diverse set of viable playstyles, because surviving is important.
That's why battle was always my least favourite game mode. Battle just doesn't fit my mind set, all this sticking together, hiding, waiting. In strat battles when you charge, you charge until you win or die and that's what I liked. Only in strat battles I experienced these epic moments when infantry of both sides clash in the middle of battlefield, with cavalry charging from the flanks. Is it more skill based? I doubt it, but definitely more enjoyable (ofc with good commanding, teams, etc.).
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 13, 2014, 10:49:39 pm
That's why battle was always my least favourite game mode. Battle just doesn't fit my mind set, all this sticking together, hiding, waiting. In strat battles when you charge, you charge until you win or die and that's what I liked. Only in strat battles I experienced these epic moments when infantry of both sides clash in the middle of battlefield, with cavalry charging from the flanks. Is it more skill based? I doubt it, but definitely more enjoyable (ofc with good commanding, teams, etc.).
Sounds like a regular day on eu1 to me.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on November 13, 2014, 11:54:46 pm
Double tapping wasd could just result in a slightly larger than shoulder with hop in that direction.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Falka on November 14, 2014, 12:53:19 am
Regular day on eu1? That's more like one blob chasing scratches of other team, which tries to run away as fast they can, everyone running in circle and so on. I don't say it's not enjoyable, but just doesn't give the feeling of participating in huge battle.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Leshma on November 14, 2014, 02:10:15 am
Double tapping wasd could just result in a slightly larger than shoulder with hop in that direction.
Dislike double tapping so much, it is made for the likes of Qoray (remember that 'I no has macro' video). Don't think I've ever used roll since its introduction, too much hassle for the old hag like me.
Less Street Fighter controls, please.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Xant on November 14, 2014, 07:29:08 am
"I don’t duck or dodge anybody" oh wait just gunna use this new 1 meter dash and run away from being ganked.
How the fuck are you going to use a 1 meter dodge tied to stamina to run away from being ganked?
Dodges, dashes, pirouettes, whatever - that's what a good melee game needs to get on the next level (and not look retarded, everyone who sees Warband combat without trying it think it looks silly). Footwork is the most important skill in real life fighting, much more important than "blocking." There is no reason it couldn't be made to require skill in MBG as well, just like blocks.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: lombardsoup on November 14, 2014, 07:37:49 am
How the fuck are you going to use a 1 meter dodge tied to stamina to run away from being ganked?
Dodges, dashes, pirouettes, whatever - that's what a good melee game needs to get on the next level (and not look retarded, everyone who sees Warband combat without trying it think it looks silly). Footwork is the most important skill in real life fighting, much more important than "blocking." There is no reason it couldn't be made to require skill in MBG as well, just like blocks.
People will complain about kiting and ask for a nerf to dodge. You might as well not even bother implementing it if that's going to be the end result
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Xant on November 14, 2014, 08:25:23 am
People will complain about kiting and ask for a nerf to dodge. You might as well not even bother implementing it if that's going to be the end result
What do you mean kiting? how is a dodge going to result in kiting?
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Smoothrich on November 14, 2014, 12:57:32 pm
Double tapping sucks. Holding a button on a keyboard like shift to dart in a direction kind of sucks too. Been playing CoD: Advanced Warfare and the whole gimmick is dashing to the sides and behind with your jetpack. Works great on a controller but is kind of annoying on a keyboard since WASD and spinning your mouse around is kind of bad enough as it is, making action games more complicated with more presses isn't that fun.
Why not just mess with the strafing animations when you hold W or D or even how you backpedal to make them more combat oriented. Strafing to your side with little hops, that can be faster or farther based on your build.
Maybe even a toggle between free-movement and "combat stance" with one set of animations better for charging across a field or repositioning as an archer, and another stance where you juke, double step, whatever with A S and
Stances can also be worked into like, "bracing" for the opposite of offensive, abusable, spamming agi whoring dancing crap. So you can brace yourself and get much more limited mobility, but greatly enhance shield effectiveness or pike deadliness, or archer fire.
Not every player wants to derp and dodge around, but some probably do, so you should let them do that somehow but with trade-offs in balance, and let STR build/heavy infantry/teamwork players have something similar for holding ground together with less mobility.
And some lightly armored dude with a rapier should probably be strafing, lunging, etc completely different from a pikeman anyways, not just in attack animations but movement. So seems like this is a thing to look into for defining unique and pro playstyles.
Example: Forward hops instead of goofy jumps as a gap closer that you can combine with stabs and crap would be great with a longsword or rapier, but make no sense with a pike who should instead just take a big step forward or backward as their tradeoff for reach, power, playstyle, etc. But a pikeman who isn't deploying his weapon for combat should be able to run with the team, just not be as mobile during combat like a lighter infantry player could.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Casimir on November 14, 2014, 01:03:42 pm
A small side step / dodge with a decent cool down would be worthwhile adding if the over all combat movement speed was reduced to stop the strafing and circling that is so common in m&b combat.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Smoothrich on November 14, 2014, 01:14:08 pm
A small side step / dodge with a decent cool down would be worthwhile adding if the over all combat movement speed was reduced to stop the strafing and circling that is so common in m&b combat.
That's just how melee combat is. You are always trying to get to the side or "weak spot" of an enemy, whether its a duel vs a shielder or a clash of 2 armies. You should be encouraging people to aggressively turn their opponent to quickly kill them.
Cooldown hops and shit is just too unorganic and cheesy, everything should be pretty fluid and simple to control yet be tuned for deep, progressively more skilled gameplay, based on your sense of movement, timing, etc. Not memorizing your cooldowns like an MMO.
And bull fucking shit over imagining giant poleaxe or flamberge wielders bunny hopping around in plate. But I'd fully expect a player geared and built for agile dueling to have some innate animation or whatever that makes it easier to dodge and gap close people with bigger, longer weapons, but remaining overall Meta Balanced.
How about the ability to hop in with a deadly riposte if you successfully chamber someone? Like a little window where you can turn your chamber into a quick lunge while you aim a stabbing attack. Shit like that.
So a short weapon player can skillfully parry away a longer weapon then be rewarded with a gap closer, or some other timed block backstepping thing to get some space, or using repeated attacks to prevent someone from running away by limiting their movement options during repeated blocks, so you can overpower some RMB noob and turn his flank, but timed blocks keep your movement speed up and allow more mobility for repositioning.
Tie the movement to combat, make it dynamic and shit, and stats like agility can make you recover your speed faster between swings, but high damage/strength/big ass weapons/whatever don't give a blocker "weapon stun" but a chance based on w/e engine variables to really slow down someone's movement unless properly parried. Weak blocks vs strong blocks, a weak blocker has limited mobility, a pro one has much better mobility.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Casimir on November 14, 2014, 01:25:16 pm
Yeah but not circling at the speeds which are present in m&b, i know that attempting to get behind of flank your opponent is vital but the way this operates in m&b is not realistic or particularly effective at conveying this.
If you were to attempt to strafe as they do in m&b I'm fairly sure you'd end flat on your face with a sword through the back of your neck in a matter of seconds.
I think your idea for a change to the strafing animations or a toggle based stance system would work best, my only concern is the stance system might be clunky and could result in some real frustration if it isn't fluid enough.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Teeth on November 14, 2014, 01:37:14 pm
I would personally be able to deal with having to press a key to modify your default steps into a longer lunges. Double-tapping is awkward and annoying in my opinion, but a modifier button seems like a defensible choice if the entire mechanic is well designed and integrated. Having such an option could be a great way to heighten the skill ceiling of movement and enhance the look of combat, should at least be considered if you ask me. I have little doubt that I am able to absorb one other key press in my muscle memory and will retain full instinctual control. I rarely ever conciously think about my WASD movement, but when I look down I am apparently constantly making decisions. Problem is how to design it in a way that you won't always want to use it, but there are a few potential solutions that come to mind. Also making it look good animation wise is tricky of course, something at which Warband mostly failed but that never kept it down.
How about the ability to hop in with a deadly riposte if you successfully chamber someone? Like a little window where you can turn your chamber into a quick lunge while you aim a stabbing attack. Shit like that.
The risk with that is that you might not want to do that in every situation and relying on triggers for things like that happening take away intuitive control. I'd rather have more complex direct control, than simpler but unintuitive control.
That's just how melee combat is. You are always trying to get to the side or "weak spot" of an enemy, whether its a duel vs a shielder or a clash of 2 armies.
I disagree. In real-life melee combat seems to be rather immobile as movement without any direct offensive or defensive disadvantage serves solely to tire yourself. In any non projectile combat situation I have seen, people only use speed when attacking or defending as it is otherwise a waste. This is what I hope to see in Melee, that running around at your max combat speed constantly is somehow punished, prevented or otherwise not the default way of going about it. Preferably without anything lame as a stamina bar, but somehow having the activation of high movement speed only happen at key moments.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Smoothrich on November 14, 2014, 01:43:42 pm
Well consider it a relative speed burst compared to whoever you chamber. Like you knock them off balance and they can't s key or 360 jump s key away and they are open to you running in for a face stab. Like a regular block slows the blocker but a well timed offensive one just carries your momentum forwards if you w key for real powerful attacks but is riskier to attempt.
So it's not some god of war counters and dodges but an organic flow with basic controls but deeper combat.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Smoothrich on November 14, 2014, 02:05:00 pm
This is what I hope to see in Melee, that running around at your max combat speed constantly is somehow punished, prevented or otherwise not the default way of going about it. Preferably without anything lame as a stamina bar, but somehow having the activation of high movement speed only happen at key moments.
I've thought since I first heard about a new melee game that this should be accomplished just by combat. Like "balance" is modeled into how people attack or defend. If you run around at full speed you could be relatively poorly balanced and someone standing still will have a bigger window to get a "good block" or good attack in and make you slow or stagger or whatever. So if you attack while running wildly, aimed poorly, backpedaling, whatever, and someone blocks you in the correct direction within a certain intuitive window of the ideal time and position to block, that opens you up to a counter attack by making you slower at moving, pivoting, more likely to mess up your next block, creating a sort of boxing-type combo system for the combat.
So a heavy infantry dude won't be doing trick dodge shit, but will probably have good balance, making it easier to attack or defend with more generous windows of timing and positioning.
A player who is good at timing and aiming attacks and blocks should be able to get the feeling of overpowering a noob, not with spam but just being better at moving and blocking and crap, and not letting people block every attack endlessly by having repeated blocks more likely to give you a good stagger/delay as you lose your balance.
A few graceful blocks or chambers and you should be able to dance around some heavy armored scrub if you so choose, like Muhammad Ali. But if they are also good and keep blocking you and attacking you back with equal skill, you don't really get the chance to lol-leap around them and shit.
You don't need to speed people up to do this, just slow down people who are fucking up in combat instead, requiring support to bail them out, a good counterplay, or just dying. Its like a virtual representation of discipline, morale, stamina, etc all in one.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 14, 2014, 02:05:59 pm
Yeah, no i-frames. The dodge in my mind should be mainly to position yourself, it will make for the larger part of footwork. Maybe it could be used to step aside from an overhead. But the time it really shines is if you are fighting alone vs 2 opponents, you dont want to fight them both at the same time, you want to shut one out of the fight. In crpg this is when you start backpeddaling, hoping that you are more agile than on of the enemies, always moving so that one is behind the other.
Best way to perform something like this would probably be shift clicking a direction, double taps dont work when you want to keep moving constantly.
cRPG's combat is already pretty amazing, M:BG's is changing it up slightly which can destroy the game completely (this scares me), but ofcourse it can also refine it and make it appeal to larger audiences while still keeping the feel of the strategic, skillbased combat of crpg/warband. Point im trying to get to is that movement and footwork is the part of crpg i think could be completely reworked to add more to the game compared to any changes to the fighting. Its great that we can discuss this here and hopefully add to the new game.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: jtobiasm on November 14, 2014, 04:36:28 pm
I think that at this point it's mainly about money and not boxing. If he loses everybody lose. Until crowd that is mirin him become bored, which probably will never come. Over the years UK developed serious case of inferiority complex, you need the likes of Mayweather to remind you how once great you were. Winning world cup in football is your ultimate wish but seeing how that won't ever happen, you have to be happy with boxing and those lame sports only you and your colonies play.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: jtobiasm on November 14, 2014, 05:41:27 pm
I think that at this point it's mainly about money and not boxing. If he loses everybody lose. Until crowd that is mirin him become bored, which probably will never come. Over the years UK developed serious case of inferiority complex, you need the likes of Mayweather to remind you how once great you were. Winning world cup in football is your ultimate wish but seeing how that won't ever happen, you have to be happy with boxing and those lame sports only you and your colonies play.
What's boxing got to do with football?
Keep mirin #47-0 #TBE #TMT
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: okiN on November 14, 2014, 05:46:19 pm
I think that at this point it's mainly about money and not boxing. If he loses everybody lose. Until crowd that is mirin him become bored, which probably will never come. Over the years UK developed serious case of inferiority complex, you need the likes of Mayweather to remind you how once great you were. Winning world cup in football is your ultimate wish but seeing how that won't ever happen, you have to be happy with boxing and those lame sports only you and your colonies play.
Mayweather is American, you know.
A better point to make would be how America lost interest in heavyweights and started going crazy over light/welterweights as soon as American heavyweights stopped winning titles.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Smoothrich on November 14, 2014, 06:14:13 pm
Basically turn the essence of this montage into Melee: BG combat. Tyson is a good, perhaps the best player, starts with an OP maxed out build of peak agility and strength, and everyone else is a shitty RMB/backpedaling/spamming bad on the pub server that feed his KD.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Kafein on November 14, 2014, 06:20:55 pm
I think Warband implements dodging the best way there is : you just fucking move. Please, please do not ever add any gamey double tap or "dodge move" nonsense. You wouldn't stop paying attention to your weapon in order to move faster, and it would not actually make you faster anyway. One of the greatest qualities of WB combat is that it is intuitive and easy to learn as a result. Specific dodge moves are the pinnacle of unintuitive movement and would significantly raise the barrier to entry and completely destroy the immersion for no good reason.
However the whole "constantly try to get behind someone in a straight fight" thing is dumb and should be addressed by both increasing the size of the collision models for humans (compared to WB) and having really good netcode to avoid tunnel effects (people randomly teleporting through others).
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Leshma on November 14, 2014, 06:56:10 pm
All this time I thought he was British... don't follow boxing closely, just wanted to troll Brits a bit but failed miserably :|
srs?
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Smoothrich on November 14, 2014, 09:47:32 pm
How about you freely move as people do now in Warband. But once you begin a swing or block, you are rooted into place. W A S D during these attacks and blocks then become individual footsteps, or you hold them down to shift your weight to brace a block or lean into an attack. Agility focused players will get buffs to use rapid or longer stride footsteps, and attacking effectively in succession will require readjusting your feet with WASD between swings, creating combos that allow you to press ground, fall back, pivot around, etc, but requiring coordination between the WASD controls of how you plant or move your feet with your mouse controlling your arms. Strength focused players may prefer to hold a direction to brace themselves and have bonuses to charging swings by holding LMB like in Warband but more tuned into the engine to give feedback through animations not meters or random guessing. So you hold LMB and position your feet with a couple taps then holding down your dominant foot's direction and release slow but much more powerful swings.
This works the same on defense, where your WASD taps or holds, which change your stance subtly but on the fly, influence how strong your blocks are from certain directions or types of attack. Lots of tapping RMB and WASD on defense is more about deflecting your opponents swings while closing the distance and getting a deadly first strike in. High STR people get buffs to holding RMB and a WASD direction to absorb the impact of attacks with ease and keep space between their opponent.
If you mess up your footwork and move in some sloppy imbalanced way, your attacks are much weaker and your blocks are more likely to cause you stun, stagger, or completely fail and get broken through. So just spamming LMB for hiltslashes or RMB downblocks to be invincible to an army of pikemen doesn't work, matching or countering footwork is just as important as direction.
Calculate something like "Force" of attacks instead of speed bonus, where you can be stationary but just adjust your dominant foot and shift your weight by mashing or releasing W or WA to be pivoting while releasing LMB to extend your stab are perfect hits, maybe even S your wieght back then tap W twice for a 1-2 step then release LMB for a real good pike thrust or something that impacts in a unique way. So you can just hold LMB and brace by holding S or something to be a cav deterrent, but require some coordination to deliver the most powerful attacks.
Would also work with my concept of "balance" which would be like an invisible stamina bar. If someone unleashes a combo of sword slashes on you that you can't block right, with them stepping up inside you and doing real solid hit after hit, your balance depletes real fast and your attacks and blocks are less effective, maybe even knock down chance, but if they stop pressing the assault, your balance shoots right back up as you catch your breath. Super charged swings can drop your balance criticlaly low for a second or two, depending on stance and crap, so people are extra vulnerable for a second after swinging a massive support weapon charged up for full damage.
Blunt weapons can drain balance the fastest to simulate concussive force disorienting your foe. Pierce attacks like spears can reliably hit with the most force, making them simple to use for new players and ideal group fighting weapons, with little reliance on fancy WASD stance adjustment to use effectively. Swords should be generally weak, but fast and very well suited for combo attacking, which is all dependent on your WASD taps and holds tocreate a real sense of pressure on your foe, so even a technically perfect warband blocker might struggle to adjust their WASD/mouse foot pivoting and crap and their blocks get less and less effective until they are overwhelmed. Two good swordsmen should have really exciting, fast, and deadly duels, adjusting their W A S D tap after every swing or block to make their next swing hit sooner or at a more unpredictable angle. Once someone starts winning the duel their opponents balance will quickly deplete without a new tactic and get owned.
Basically make the current WASD directional system more limited but meaningful during actual combat. Combine fast taps, long holds, and timing of release of W A S D , LMB, and RMB to make combat more violent and unpredictable, open to experimentation and full of depth. Maybe add space bar or some shit as a hop and something as a duck for real advanced play, where you don't move much different but are designed mostly to avoid attacks by dodging up or down in a smooth way.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Eugen on November 14, 2014, 10:36:45 pm
Sorry to interrupt. Didnt read all. But its about movement aint it?
You were talking about melee sidesteps and dodging alot. What about a move for ranged. Give Melee:Battleground the crouch for ranged.
Either ranged can use it for hide and shoot or for the stylish battleformation of a line of crouching archers in front of a line of standing archers.
I definitly would like this feature, maybe still would not play ranged a lot, but hey - i´d like to watch ranged fighters using this.
Why only ranged? Becouse melee fighters are to proud to crouch!
And sorry I dont understand the difference between strafe (what we have in warband) and sidestep - isnt this totally the same????
However. Cheers. And keep up the spirit.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Smoothrich on November 14, 2014, 11:20:15 pm
Strafing feels like a fps mechanic. I think a lot of us want to see something more physical and athletic to use in combat that adds another dimension of skill to melee fighting then just crab walking fast to the sides. I think controlling a big ass weapon should be a bit more in depth then mashing strafe or s key and sideswings and more physics should be involved.
Better environmental interaction to provide cover during ranged would be good too. In warband you hold swings and look down to duck. Be nice to lounge behind cover more naturally.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Byrdi on November 15, 2014, 07:20:57 pm
I think if a swords coming at me 1 meter waint stop a guy killing me unless it's a stab. Pretty pointless mechanic.
oh yeah forgot, brb gunna dash 1 meter carrying a sword and wearing armour
Honestly, no matter how fat or slow you are; you should be able to dash on step away. Whether one step is more or less than 1 meter is a different question though.
But as someone said above: no one wants to see a battlefield filled when "jedis" side stabbing and jagging around. It could have a cooldown on it similar to nudges (or even shared with, like rolls are).
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Xant on November 15, 2014, 07:25:36 pm
Honestly, no matter how fat or slow you are; you should be able to dash on step away. Whether one step is more or less than 1 meter is a different question though.
But as someone said above: no one wants to see a battlefield filled when "jedis" side stabbing and jagging around. It could have a cooldown on it similar to nudges (or even shared with, like rolls are).
Obviously not. Evidently jtobiasm is so fat and unathletic that any kind of fast movement seems like sci-fi.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: jtobiasm on November 15, 2014, 07:28:59 pm
If this suggestion was inspired by rich Darksouls PvP combat, clearly M:BG wont be a complete game without cartwheeling ninja-flipping Havels. Cant wait to see all the pole and 2hand heroes leaping back and swinging endlessly vs shielders or 1handers. It's just throwing an arcade element ontop of the existing combat mechanic, in theory dodging makes sense irl ofc, but are we there yet in terms of mechanics to make it look actually good or realistic or balanced in a game? I've yet to see a dodge mechanic that didnt look jarring and shit.
On the plus side it will be good to know what direction M:BG will take before buying it.
Throwing ideas out there is not a bad thing, sure it may be hard to make but why shouldnt they try? Inspired doesnt mean i want to port over the same dodge mechanics, too much for a meathead strwhore to understand im sure. Warband always was pretty arcadey, and thats what made it great. They could add cartwheel flipping for all i care, as long as it fits the game and is a balanced and good addition to the game.
I dont give 2 shits about realism at all, im playing crpg after all. But i realise the game is probably going to be more realistic than crpg atleast, and so i adapt my suggestions to what would fit within that. A dodge is not impossible to make.
Tbh they should just remove agility as a whole, lets make everyone move at walking speed. One giant blob fight in the middle, no actualy skill involved just a massive beatdown, im sure this would be great.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: jtobiasm on November 15, 2014, 09:19:43 pm
One giant blob fight in the middle, no actualy skill involved just a massive beatdown, im sure this would be great.
Having everyone at the same speed would probs make it even more skill based and competitive but that ruins the rpg side of it and the fun of custom characters.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 15, 2014, 10:42:09 pm
Imagine that, a melee fighting game without any sort of dodge mechanic, such a game would surely be totally shit and skilless i'm sure you'd never play it. On an unrelated note what mod for what game are we on the forums regarding?
Yes, my suggestion of not implementing a crappy and unnecessary dodge mechanic is exactly the same thing as making everyone move at walking speed. Congrats on your powers of deduction. Ok, i dont trust that the sarcasm is coming through. Tell me, when you play crpg do you join a server and think 'SHIT! No dodge mechanic, guess i'd better toggle the 'walk' button and walk towards the enemy in a big blob cos it's the only way to play, such a skilless game, if only there was a way to fight other than walking...'.
In your perfect imagination of this feature, it sounds a lot like you can easily imagine yourself having this amazing dodge power to run rings around and backstab all the hollows, and not that you're picturing a server full of 100 people dodging and spazzing about. You came dangerously close to to your usual ''pffff, why dont you just kill variety because you're against X feature'' argument, the one where me being against a particular mechanic means i hate 'variety', i reiterate the fact that if YOU get dodge so does everyone else, this isnt anything to do with agility or any particular builds (unless your next suggestion after 'dodge' is 'only agi-characters should get dodge'). When you're talking theoretically about how shit it would be to not have this feature, you also seem to be forgetting that you really enjoy Warband and Crpg which dont have this feature.
Afaik there is a dodge roll in crpg, last time i checked that is.. im not sure maybe its gone, i havent played the game in a day so..
Funny how you react so much on me pulling the over exaggurated card of removing agility, when you were the one to start it with implying that i want cartwheel flipping havels.
The variety thing, wtf where did you get this shit from all of a sudden, adding a feature surely isnt killing variety is it now?
Also why are you so upset? We're discussing a new mechanic that could potentially be a great addition to the new game, and all ive heard from you except for all the childish overexagurated (allthough funny, not really adding much) arguments was that it would probably be hard to make and would maybe look stupid because no other game has done it well as of yet.
I do enjoy crpg which doesnt really have anything that compares to what im wanting for the new game, but the new game is also a new game, i dont want it to be exactly like crpg, i want it to be different. Movement in crpg is definitely the biggest part that needs changing to the new game and so im adding my opinions on how it could be enhanced.
Title: Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 15, 2014, 11:44:41 pm
Devils advocate, since devs are interested to hear our thoughts on the subject and you want the mechanic, i want to demonstrate that not all of us want this to be a mechanic. That's my main motivation. Outside of that, since this is theoretical discussion over a game that hasnt been released yet i dont have any greater stake, for you it started as a feature you'd be interested in seeing as an addition (though more recently in this thread you seem to have convinced yourself that any game without it will suck). For me, a feature like this is a dealbreaker, for me it misses the spirit and 'feel' of the combat system in warband and crpg that inspired M:BG and everything i've heard about it so far. As i said, i have no greater stake other than giving the feedback that at least for me i would hate this to be a feature, it will be the main thing i'll check when the game is released before i buy - if i wanted to play chivalry i'd play chivalry.
I react to your overreaction about removing agility because it's the exact same overreaction you always use and tbh it's getting boring. If we propose an increase in armour difficulty to scale with weapon difficulty it's 'pfffffffffff, you might as well just remove agility and kill variety', i'm not Xant enough to go through the history of every time you've made that ludicrous exaggeration, but it seems your standard response to anyone who has an opinion you dont like - even in topics like this where it has *nothing* to do with agility or variety.
In a nutshell this expresses why we'll never see eye-to-eye on this matter. I simply wouldnt buy a game claiming to be a medieval combat/battlefield experience if it had cartwheel flipping in it, it could even be the most beautifully animated, balanced and well implemented feature in gaming history and maybe i'd be missing out on that - but i wouldnt ever know or care because i'd have never got the game or played it. It wouldnt fit the aesthetic i'm looking for in a medieval battleground, particularly not in something that took inspiration from M&B combat and sought to improve upon it.
It's not an exaggeration to say that this is a concept from another genre of game that would drastically change the emphasis on other mechanics, such as blocking. Havel flipping was an exaggeration in response to Xant's bullshit, it's a game we like to play with each other, though me and Xant bromance aside it did underlay my personal opinion that DarkSouls PvP isnt exactly the best rolemodel for polished and well executed competitive play.
So far everything else i've heard from M:BG has been encouraging me that we're on a similar wavelength in terms of what we're looking for, i'd prefer devs to not have spent most of their time in working on an in-depth combat system to suddenly through something in at the last minute that even if it manages to not look tacky, completely devalues blocking and makes the game a dodge'n'spam gankfest. In a dodge'n'spam gankfest there is no skill, but at the very least it'd be very accessible to newbies who only have to learn 2 buttons.
I see.
As i see it, the directional combat is what makes warband so glorious, movement is passable and not bad, but also pretty boring basic. Im just for changing it up, to me it would in theory footwork would still be basically the same, but slower backpeddaling, no darting backwards then forwards then sideways all withing a few seconds and at incredible speeds. Instead you have to manage one major step to keep control the are where you are fighting, and making it tougher for another enemy to be able to get to you because you are always positioned so that he has to walk around the other guy you are fighting. Everyone would pretty much be on equal grounds as far as how fast you move outside of that.
Sorry if my reactions are getting boring, cant say im trying to mix it up either. Allthough this has nothing to do with killing variety, previous threads have. But i can only remember the armor difficulty thread though where it actually was legit, im not sure where else i have said similar things. I think you are overreacting and still upset since last thread we argued in, and so overexaggurating what arguements i used there because they may have been similar to this one.
To be expected though, im a full out agiwhore, you are a strcrutch. Two different world collide, it aint pretty.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Jacko on November 17, 2014, 06:29:59 pm
Just to clear some stuff up, we are not doing Dark Souls like dodges/rolls. What we're really looking into is deepening the movement mechanics to be on pair with the actual fighting, instead of just circling around each other. Think minor, repositioning movements.
And yes, crouching will be in. Probably stationary at first but we'll iterate on it and see where we end up.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Eugen on November 17, 2014, 07:55:35 pm
Hooray!!! :oops: Crouching!!! :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: MURDERTRON on November 17, 2014, 08:46:45 pm
Please add Liu Kang kicks.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Smoothrich on November 18, 2014, 09:44:57 am
Just to clear some stuff up, we are not doing Dark Souls like dodges/rolls. What we're really looking into is deepening the movement mechanics to be on pair with the actual fighting, instead of just circling around each other. Think minor, repositioning movements.
Yeah that is what I tried to get at completely. That a few steps during your swings can make you hit much harder or weaker, and have effects like concussive polestun, staggering in a direction, knees buckling. Steps during swings and blocks that are made to counter each other so you don't buckle from big heavy overhead smashes. Replace the fucked up speed bonus system in Warband combat with angles of impact and foot positioning to determine the power of swings.
Using a great maul shouldn't be auto crush throughs. It should be reflecting massive weight and force in a small smashing impact, where you don't need much space to accomplish the force of a poleaxe. Unless a shielder does crap like hold and release RMB to "shield bash" in a certain direction while stepping into, or away, from the impact while catching the maul high up in the swing before the power maxes out, they will be forced to a knee and be have to do their next block or attack from a real compromised situation. So with skill you avoid it, or can recover. But the attacker is able to follow up with an even better aimed crushing blow, at an angle that he thinks is almost impossible for you to deflect, and continue bashing the shit out of you in a "combo" that gets more and more damaging and brutal looking based on physics and "overwhelming the defenses." This basic scenario can be done with any weapon, modeled based on the physics of various weapon interactions.
So you can't just hit RMB and flick your mouse and do perfect blocks. You need to do that but more timing on tapping, holding, and possibly releasing RMB after weapons or shields collide, and move your WASD in a way to best counter theirs at the same time, and have big weapons collide and be used in aggressive parrying maneuvers just like shields, where you can step one way with WASD for footwork and your mouse for your arms in another and create advantageous collisions and releases of weapons and shields, attacking or blocking, based on redirecting force and stuff. Moving WASD aggressively during blocking to force your foe back, using WASD defensively or passively to give ground in a controlled way, or attempt to withdraw from combat. Don't use WASD at all to redirect the force of swings and you get pulverized eventually.
Like the direction you move WASD, or "step" in, while your mouse determines how your arms/weapon/shield move in, are combined to determine where you and your enemy's weapons or shields will end up after colliding and force players to stagger and compensate around to recover and properly block or attack again. Determine the pro-factor at point of impact and any followup footwork/release of two people engaging and make it easier for the one starting off good to follow up stronger, the scrub struggling to reclaim equal pro-factor calculations by adjusting for the next collision of combat objects. Someone real good at controlling their steps and swings to maximize force against some noob who can't keep up will look real flashy and dominating in gameplay, creating a dynamic but real entertaining "combo" system.
I'm thinking of this as more like 3d open map fighting/boxing gameplay, where choosing a left hook or an uppercut or whatever and how you both move, influences what kind of block or attack will be done next, where skilled ppl keep up with each other but a pro can do all sorts of pro crap to capitalize on missteps and viciously overpower someone.
Like a proper boxing/MMA game. But with hundreds of players. And instead of gloves they have hilarious tools of killing, maiming, and crushing.
Make armor and weapons interact like shells and armor in tank combat simulations too. So you use the actual tip of weapons with actual consideration into your aim. Give swords, spears, multiuse polearm heads, actual purpose instead of re-skinned lightsabers like Warband. So spearmen are actulaly using footwork to stab ppl with the end of a spear, and lolstabbing causes big glances based on observable physics instead of RNG shit.
tia
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Smoothrich on November 18, 2014, 11:51:18 am
Basically make it impossible to circle each other while attacking unless the attacks are being deflected in a certain direction feeding into a spin. Let directional combat control movement more so you only free move while fighting if you continously strike or deflect attacks in the opposite direction of your movement. Locking weapons locks movement or makes it more dependent on combat actions. Instead of adding general movement options, add combat interactions that unlock situational gap closers or circle stepping in to a flank while skillfully deflecting a crappy swing.
Warband example if you left block with a shaft you get jerked to your right unless you absorb the shock. The attacker can keep his weapon locked on your block and both players movement is restricted on the physics of this hold until the blocker shoves off or attacker yields. Colliding swings work like parries with bursts of force on weapons and movement in opposite directions. Controlling the forces let's you move relatively faster and be more aggressive. Let strength stats control force or endurance of these holds and collisions so strength is about control and agility is about avoiding being locked up and controlled.
Darth Vader is a strength build relying on controlling his enemy's movements with his attacks, Luke is a balanced build. Darth wins in Empire Strikes Back by holding Luke's weapon in place with his, while walking up to him into grapple range to drop and potentionally execute a disarmed Luke. A combat maneuver easily realized in a melee game with advanced blocking and weapon collision I'd think.
Darth is literally defeated in Return of the Jedi by trying to S key while blocking until Luke gets a dominant position, cuz Darth only reacts defensively with his S key instead of trying to counter the spam by locking swords and repositioning with his superior strength. Watch Darth hold a pathetic up block until Luke angles himself to knock away the RMB turtle noob upblock with a swing and finishes the battle as the perfect example of overwhelming defenses I keep posting about.
Footwork should be part of the combat system, not independent of it.
And I know Star Wars isn't realistic medieval combat fighting manuals lol, but its a great depiction of stylized melee combat and distinct fighting styles with easy to follow pacing and footwork.
And I guess everyone in the prequels were before the devs decided to nerf agility
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Eugen on November 20, 2014, 05:37:15 am
Another proposal for movement improvement: Running with key-command and stamina bar Running as key-command (ctrl+w) accelerates forward movement and is the same speed for everyone only influenced by equimpment weight and terrain-factors. Running drains the stamina bar as well as extended blocking. Athletics will reduce the drain for running and shieldskill will reduce that drain for blocking with shield. Running towards an enemy and attacking depletes the staminabar but deals extra damage (more then raw speedbonuns). This is the Chargemove! Normal movement can differ by athletics value. Normal movement is walking and fighting speed, with faster sidesteps, when holding the run key in melee.
Desired effects of Running with Stamina Bar: - Charge as a group should be possible, with more damage output as advantage but with depleted stamina bar and therefore bad blocking as disadvantage. - Moving Shieldwalls at walking speed - No backpaddeling with runningspeed - only forward acceleration - Melee moves in walkingspeed. Fast sidesteps and also forward and backward launches with run button. This need some kind of melee detection. No running whilest attacking, with exception of the first strike = Chargre Move. - Kiting should be very hard, becouse running speed is same for everyone - except of weight. Speed difference through high athletics in basic walking speed should definitly always stay below the slowest runningspeed.
Thats a very basic idea. Still I hope its in the game.
Title: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
Post by: Eugen on November 20, 2014, 06:29:06 am