How to discourage no-risk playstyles?

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

In order to prevent the usual guerilla warfare from ranged at the end of the rounds, perhaps have the flags come up every round and slightly earlier so elimination isn't the only priority.

[Boss_Awesome]

There have been a ton of range players since day one of c-RPG, and people complained about it since day 1.  For two years I have heard constant complaints that "everyone has a crossbow" or that c-rpg is a "rangefest".   Since then, ranged classes have been nerfed to hell.  When c-rpg still had native style archery, I could shoot a bow 2 - 3 times faster than now.  Athletics was also nerfed making it much much harder to kite as an archer compared to how it used to be.  Air friction was increased making it tough to do damage at long range unless you get the angles right.  Horse archers used to be feared, now they are more of an annoyance class.  Master of the field didn't even work properly back in the day.   Some players like to play ranged classes so these players stick with it.  It isn't any different now compared to any other time in this mod, except that ranged classes are much weaker.  There is plenty of risk when playing a ranged class.  Archers are squishy, crossbowmen are vulnerable reloading, horse archers can't hit shit and do little damage.  Any ranged class can be taken out easy by good cav or smart agility melee.  I see how STR crutching my old friendhanders might get frustrated but that is their own choice.  Master of the field is there for a reason and if someone is avoiding being killed you can just take the flag. 

[CrazyCracka420]

How to discourage no-risk play styles?  Don't run off by yourself and be easy pickings for the "no-riskers" (aka the predators who are more mobile or stronger than yourself, or really anyone who can take advantage of one of your weaknesses).

I don't see any play style as being "no risk" personally.  The only one I would possibly put in that category is a horse archer/horse crossbowman, but if they are off on the edge of the map, they're only able to fuck with the lone rambo's who are out on the edge of the map.

If you fight with your teammates, and near your own ranged, it becomes a moot point what these "no riskers" are doing.  I can't pick you off with my horse and lance if you aren't by yourself, and aren't making yourself a target.  If you fight with your teammates, any time I go in for an attack is a huge risk.  My whole theory when I'm horse lancing is to minimize my risk while taking out the highest priorities on the enemy team.  It's a subconscious equation that takes place in my head, and I put myself in riskier situations depending on how many people we are out numbered, and how the tide of the battle is going. 

Protect your own ranged and support classes (as they support you), and see how much better the game feels.  Or keep running around like you're on your own island and bitch and complain that c-rpg is borked.

[Sandersson Jankins]

There have been a ton of range players since day one of c-RPG, and people complained about it since day 1.  For two years I have heard constant complaints that "everyone has a crossbow" or that c-rpg is a "rangefest".   Since then, ranged classes have been nerfed to hell.  When c-rpg still had native style archery, I could shoot a bow 2 - 3 times faster than now.  Athletics was also nerfed making it much much harder to kite as an archer compared to how it used to be.  Air friction was increased making it tough to do damage at long range unless you get the angles right.  Horse archers used to be feared, now they are more of an annoyance class.  Master of the field didn't even work properly back in the day.   Some players like to play ranged classes so these players stick with it.  It isn't any different now compared to any other time in this mod, except that ranged classes are much weaker.  There is plenty of risk when playing a ranged class.  Archers are squishy, crossbowmen are vulnerable reloading, horse archers can't hit shit and do little damage.  Any ranged class can be taken out easy by good cav or smart agility melee.  I see how STR crutching my old friendhanders might get frustrated but that is their own choice.  Master of the field is there for a reason and if someone is avoiding being killed you can just take the flag.

Thank you for replying. However, you still seem to feel that I am requesting that "NERF RANGED TO SAVE CRPG NERF my old friendCHERERS." This is not the case. I feel that it should not be as attractive of an option as it is to use a kiting archer or HX build. I'll even take horse-archery out of the equation. I do not feel that archery or HX are overpowered. Truly, I do not. I feel that they make the game unappealing and suck the fun out of it when played in a certain way. You seem to think that not being able to do much damage=risk. It does not! Risk is when a person is at danger of taking damage. Oftentimes, HX and kiting archers can simply refuse to take damage while being able to deal a low to moderate amount of damage themselves. THAT is my point. The only workable solution that I have found is to remove battle and replace it with a conquest mode similar to Smoothrich's idea.
Oh, and feel free to go to my profile and -1 every post that I have ever made. I think that it would make you quite happy indeed.

How to discourage no-risk play styles?  Don't run off by yourself and be easy pickings for the "no-riskers" (aka the predators who are more mobile or stronger than yourself, or really anyone who can take advantage of one of your weaknesses).

I don't see any play style as being "no risk" personally.  The only one I would possibly put in that category is a horse archer/horse crossbowman, but if they are off on the edge of the map, they're only able to fuck with the lone rambo's who are out on the edge of the map.

If you fight with your teammates, and near your own ranged, it becomes a moot point what these "no riskers" are doing.  I can't pick you off with my horse and lance if you aren't by yourself, and aren't making yourself a target.  If you fight with your teammates, any time I go in for an attack is a huge risk.  My whole theory when I'm horse lancing is to minimize my risk while taking out the highest priorities on the enemy team.  It's a subconscious equation that takes place in my head, and I put myself in riskier situations depending on how many people we are out numbered, and how the tide of the battle is going. 

Protect your own ranged and support classes (as they support you), and see how much better the game feels.  Or keep running around like you're on your own island and bitch and complain that c-rpg is borked.

I'm not entirely sure if you watch me play. I am often very high on the scoreboard, but I am not as skilled as many of the players under me. This is because I DO make a conscious effort every time I play to stay with the largest group, and to attempt to coordinate the pubbies in the same fashion. However, HX/kiting archers are not a moot point. I (along with MANY others) feel a large amount of frustration when forced to wait 2-3 minutes every round in order for flags to come up so we can secure a win. I don't feel that flags should NEED to come up every round, lest we be forced to lose.

[Oggrinsky]

I've been playing HA for a while now, and pretty damn well at that. If I want to light up the score board I have to play high risk. If I want to get within enough distance to hit someone consistently (not firing into a group), then I have to open myself to all sorts of enemy ranged rape. My horse, a Champ Desert Horse, typically takes 2-3 shots. There are plenty of foot archers who will easily shoot my horse twice before I'm out of distance or can take cover. Of course, if I ride full speed all the time my horse gets hit a lot less because of it's awesome maneuverability... but once I do that I open myself up for a speed bonus against my horse from enemy projectiles. Besides, have you tried to hit something consistently while riding full speed? It's pretty tough, at least for me.So, I can either ride slowly and become an easy target or I can ride fast and risk the speed bonus. 

I score better than the majority of the horse archers on NA1, (I guess I'm easily forgettable though), but that's because I'm way more aggressive than most horse archers. I go for close range shots because that's where the damage is. I also focus on assisting my teammates in melee because I have the accuracy necessary to do so. At no point in time have I felt as if I wasn't exposed to risk. If anything I feel like I expose myself to more risk than the average foot archer. With foot archers long range shots can be deadly. Long range shots as a HA aren't impossible to line up, but the damage is sad. You might have to shoot an armored infantryman 10+ times from long range for a kill. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT. All the glory is in shooting from mid to close range. So, sure, a horse archer can evade damage pretty easily from long range but his damage output will be pitiful. Evading enemy ranged from mid range while pretty much keeping a 360 degree vigil for lancers or infantry; all so you can shoot some dude for probably less than a quarter of their health. Does that really sound no or low-risk to you?

HX are a different story. They don't need to, nor want to, stay in range to line up shots. As a HX you can fire and then ride to a safe distance, reload and rinse and repeat. I'm not going to say HX is easier to play but I will say it has significantly lower risk involved. Still though, even with HX, to really light up the score board you have to play aggressively.

By the way, when I'm the last player on my team and I feel like I have no chance of winning I just get off my horse and die. Not all ranged cav are douchey in that way.


TLDR: low-risk playstyles yield little reward for ranged cav
          aggressive playstyles are where the glory is
          fuck HX
          screw you guys for never name dropping me

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

I've been playing HA for a while now

Who the hell are you?

[Boss_Awesome]

I (along with MANY others) feel a large amount of frustration when forced to wait 2-3 minutes every round in order for flags to come up so we can secure a win.

Do you really think that each battle should be over in under 2 minutes?  Battle is fun because it rewards tactics and everything that happens is extremely meaningful since there are no respawns.  A battle that is over in under 2 minutes means both sides brainless charged, which is extremely lame.  Flags come up more than fast enough in my opinion and runners are a non issue.  I also have a problem with the idea of removing an archer's ability to kite.  With the extremely slow draw speed in crpg (compared to native) an archer is going to get like 2 shots at the most when an infantryman decides to focus on them.  If the archer is lucky enough to have masterworked bow and arrows then they might be able to kill someone in 2 shots.  The alternatives are run or fight.  A pure archer is at an extreme disadvantage in a fight.  If kiting is to be removed then archers need their draw speed doubled to actually give them a chance at killing an approaching infantryman.  In order to kill kiting archers right now you need to either A) backstab, B) be faster than them, C) Be cav, or D) have some ranged ability.  If none of these things are possible for you then you need to just focus on the flags and let them come to you since archer hunting is not your roll.   Also, if you hate -1's on your posts so much then stop posting in archer nerf threads.  (this thread is one)

[Oggrinsky]

Who the hell are you?

I am Oggrinsky! Lancer rapist and horseman aficionado! 

[Sandersson Jankins]

Do you really think that each battle should be over in under 2 minutes?  Battle is fun because it rewards tactics and everything that happens is extremely meaningful since there are no respawns.  A battle that is over in under 2 minutes means both sides brainless charged, which is extremely lame.  Flags come up more than fast enough in my opinion and runners are a non issue.  I also have a problem with the idea of removing an archer's ability to kite.  With the extremely slow draw speed in crpg (compared to native) an archer is going to get like 2 shots at the most when an infantryman decides to focus on them.  If the archer is lucky enough to have masterworked bow and arrows then they might be able to kill someone in 2 shots.  The alternatives are run or fight.  A pure archer is at an extreme disadvantage in a fight.  If kiting is to be removed then archers need their draw speed doubled to actually give them a chance at killing an approaching infantryman.  In order to kill kiting archers right now you need to either A) backstab, B) be faster than them, C) Be cav, or D) have some ranged ability.  If none of these things are possible for you then you need to just focus on the flags and let them come to you since archer hunting is not your roll.   Also, if you hate -1's on your posts so much then stop posting in archer nerf threads.  (this thread is one)

I am beginning to doubt your reading comprehension skills. Let me say this as clearly as possible.

I DO NOT WISH TO NERF ARCHERY, HORSE ARCHERY, OR HORSE CROSSBOWERY

Was that quite clear for you? I'm not convinced it is, please let me know if you need bigger text or a sillier font. I want to discourage kiting and HX/HA delaying through means OTHER THAN STAT NERFS OR BUFFS. The only way I have seen to do that is to change Battle to a Conquest mode. If there are others, please, enlighten me.

Alright, on to the next way that you misunderstood me.

I DO NOT WISH FOR BATTLES TO LAST TWO MINUTES

Now, with that out of the way, let me explain. I was referring to the very common situation in which the battle is all but decided. The numbers are something like two high-agility ranged or mounted ranged versus eleven assorted enemies. The round is delayed for two to three minutes from this point. This is not against the rules, because the two kiters are simply "playing their class." I'm sure that this could be quite enjoyable and fun for the kiters, but to everyone without a high multiplier (5x holders LOVE delaying kiting ranged), it is extremely frustrating. This is not only because it is a silly waste of time, but for players without much of a gold wallet, repair costs are significantly higher due to the length of the round.

I understand that as an archer, you feel personally attacked by this thread, and by extension, you feel personally attacked by me. I have simply never encountered someone that felt the need to -1 every single post in a thread started by me, even when their opinion is completely opposite. Hell, I even wrote gigantic walls of text defending Spook and only those posts were minus'd, if even those. It's not like I can stop you, it just seems a bit childish to me. I imagine you snickering to yourself, saying "Ha, that'll show him! I gave him infamy on the crpg forums! He won't be making archery nerf threads anymore!"

(click to show/hide)

More incoming infamy, take cover! Refrain from returning fire though, because I can participate in a debate/argument without resorting to anything besides my words and ideas.

I have indeed seen you in battle, and I respect what you do. You're an effective HA, and when confronted with insurmountable odds, you refuse to waste people's time/gold. Thank you for that.
I am Oggrinsky! Lancer rapist and horseman aficionado! 

[oohillac]

(click to show/hide)

How to discourage no-risk play styles?  Don't run off by yourself and be easy pickings for the "no-riskers" (aka the predators who are more mobile or stronger than yourself, or really anyone who can take advantage of one of your weaknesses).

I don't see any play style as being "no risk" personally.  The only one I would possibly put in that category is a horse archer/horse crossbowman, but if they are off on the edge of the map, they're only able to fuck with the lone rambo's who are out on the edge of the map.

If you fight with your teammates, and near your own ranged, it becomes a moot point what these "no riskers" are doing.  I can't pick you off with my horse and lance if you aren't by yourself, and aren't making yourself a target.  If you fight with your teammates, any time I go in for an attack is a huge risk.  My whole theory when I'm horse lancing is to minimize my risk while taking out the highest priorities on the enemy team.  It's a subconscious equation that takes place in my head, and I put myself in riskier situations depending on how many people we are out numbered, and how the tide of the battle is going. 

Protect your own ranged and support classes (as they support you), and see how much better the game feels.  Or keep running around like you're on your own island and bitch and complain that c-rpg is borked.

All of my +1. 

Sandersson, stop running off by yourself (don't lie, I see you pull this shit all the time), getting destroyed, then bitching out on the forums. 

Try horse archery, try foot archery, try these "no risk" playstyles.  Having friends to play with makes things easier as well, but you seem hell-bent not to make any, based on this thread.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Alright, thread is being locked! There is no more discussion. It's a damn shame that it came to this point. I just can't for the life of me understand how someone can choose to play in a playstyle that receives frustration and ire from the majority of the community.

Oh, and if you want a dick-waving contest for "friends", ask a common player what they think of Fallen. I'm confident that most NA players know you folks as the group that consistently and consciously separates from the team, only to be destroyed once the rest of the team falls. You guys have very little love among the population NA_1.

Cheers.