Author Topic: New System to Limit Troop Tickets  (Read 1231 times)

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Offline Canary

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New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« on: February 11, 2014, 07:26:46 pm »
+3
I had an idea based on something chadz said a while back for a new way to gain troop tickets. Currently, any player on strat can generate one troop every hour no matter where they are at a constant pace with the only controlling factor being upkeep cost. This leads balance between factions to revolve almost entirely around two things: Trade capability and playerbase size (with added benefits for not fighting). So! Here's an idea to limit the amount of raw troops generated into the game and to keep army sizes from being extremely large without first having to do something to earn that capacity.

Two systems, both based on the idea of renown. Renown is currently given to a player for completing a battle, with a trickle-down of points awarded to everyone in his faction. For this to work, the amount of raw renown given to a player would have to be balanced differently, with none or very little gained from faction association.

Renown points - gained like renown is now, but probably at a slower rate. Finish a battle, get renown. The amount would vary depending on the scale of the enemy army's defeated tickets' gear level. This would be a non-transferable currency used to purchase troop tickets. As such, only players who have fought battles could generate troop tickets, but they could still be transferred freely. The amount of renown a troop ticket costs would go up based on how many tickets you currently possess (or maybe how many tickets your entire faction has). Buying them could be limited to fiefs, or done in the open at a penalty. It could be limited by some factor like fief population. Fief owners could maybe have control over whether troops are recruitable in their fief, limited with a delay on toggling it on or off by a day or so.

Renown level - this would be increased by *being the attacking and defending party in battles on the map but in a much smaller amount than renown points. It would be a direct limitation on the total army size a player controls. Renown level could be transferable or not, depending on how strict of a system is wanted.  The possibility for tweaking how this works are numerous: say each level gives a further allotment of 10 additional troop tickets beyond the base 100. It could be rewarded for achievements in battles instead of only for straight killing of geared tickets. Here are some example rewards:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

The benefit of this would be to limit the amount of tickets coming into the map and prohibit inactive players from being able to effortlessly increase a faction's potential recruiting power (or there could be a new system developed for them to recruit at a slow pace, assuming someone throws renown level on them if it's made transferable). It would also lower the general army size during much of the game, and could make players with larger, better equipped armies (or merely larger potential armies) bigger targets - when they fight their enemy, they're giving them a benefit and even if they defeat them they aren't only destroying all their tickets and gear.

edit: Section for possible downsides:
New players coming in mid-game would have no viable targets to attack to increase their renown levels. (if it were transferable, they could trade for it, however)
Players not interested in moving around the map, but who are still relatively active, would have less to do.
Battles would be smaller on average. Not necessarily a downside, but large battles are one of the hallmarks of Strategus past.
More micromanagement would be necessary, particularly on the fly when quick transfers of armies have to take place. Keeping track of renown levels would become critical.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 04:07:43 am by Canary »

Offline dynamike

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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2014, 07:36:58 pm »
+6
I do like the attempt to downscale battles and make troops more valuable. But I am not a big fan of this idea since I, like many other people I am sure, have a very taxing work/life schedule and oftentimes cannot participate in Strat battles. On the other hand I have the option to play forum warrior or make some moves in Strat on the website during short breaks inside the office (as I am doing right now) or even on my mobile phone when on the go.

This suggestion would put people like myself in a severe disadvantage in Strat, since even though we are very active in the community, we cannot get in as many Strat battles as people who have more time at home to play the game.
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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2014, 08:29:29 pm »
+6
So basically this reminds me of this thing:

(click to show/hide)

What you are trying to propose is mandatory fighting to get more troops to be able to fight again and get even more troops so you could....

There are so many flaws i dont know where to start from... Well i started i guess with that quote and the sentence below.
Quincy Clan played a neutral role last round and we had so few battles it silly even to mention it. So basically with this system it will be next to impossible to have neutral clans.
There enough reason to fight each other without making a reason to fight each other in order to fight each other more.
Also, stat whoring is big enough without making renown another "new big thing"...
I dont have time to write more atm but if ppl rly like this idea i will...

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Offline Tydeus

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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2014, 08:34:23 pm »
+2
I do like the attempt to downscale battles and make troops more valuable. But I am not a big fan of this idea since I, like many other people I am sure, have a very taxing work/life schedule and oftentimes cannot participate in Strat battles. On the other hand I have the option to play forum warrior or make some moves in Strat on the website during short breaks inside the office (as I am doing right now) or even on my mobile phone when on the go.

This suggestion would put people like myself in a severe disadvantage in Strat, since even though we are very active in the community, we cannot get in as many Strat battles as people who have more time at home to play the game.
I don't like the idea of rewarding those simply for playing more, rather than better, but I think simply capping the renown to some amount obtainable through two or three battles a week(Maybe one particularly well played battle), could achieve essentially the same thing. If you tailor the rewards to be more along the lines of performance, I see this as being less of an issue(although still an issue for some, no doubt). This is of course, only concerning the max army size, which I think is highly needed.
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Offline Kamirane

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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2014, 08:44:56 pm »
+1
In generally i like the idea.

But there are things, why i am totally against it.

1. When all participants are getting Reknown, no unknown Mercs will be accepted in Roster anymore. Just because they can create Soldiers with this Reknown - maybe those who are attacking u next time. I fear this will make Stratbattles to some Faction/Union-exclusive-Stratbattles.

2. Mercenarys want to have GOLD. They are maybe more interessted to fight for a more "reknown" guy, but still Gold is the Currency they want. So why should be Renown the Currency for new Soldier restrictions.

Offline KaMiKaZe_JoE

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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2014, 09:23:01 pm »
+1
The current ticket system certainly needs to change, and I think this is a good solution of the more complicated sort. If properly implemented it could add a new dynamic that blends in nicely with all the other aspects of cRPG (see responses to Dynamic). It also has some RP/realism to it--you can pretend, even just a little, that your heroic actions in the cRPG would might have troop-generating consequences.

I think that renown points could be a transferable currency that you use to buy troops from fiefs. You get the points based off of a similar equation that you, Canary, used for your "Renown Level" section. Fighting winning battles, get renown.

Perhaps you could lose renown for certain things, like losing strat fights really badly, TKing a lot in cRPG Strat, and shit-talking poorly.

(click to show/hide)

1) More renown points could be rewarded for more actions on the Strat map
2) If it's transferable then you could piggy-back a bit off of more active players, which would also help promote a sense of "faction wide renown".
3) Renown in Strat could be tied into renown on the forums. After all, if a brave warrior is a shit-talking baddie within his little warrior community, no one would realistically fight for him, right? At least respect or fear would be reflected in a high renown number, which you get from either impressing or otherwise gaining the prestige of fellow forum warriors.
4) You could still earn some renown in regular cRPG, which is easier to play than Strat is for casual or busy players. Tie it into an equation that balances time played with your k/d (you can be heroically skilled the few times you play, or play a lot and be well-known, or just be awesome).

Kamirane

All good points, probably work-aroundable, but yeah I'm drawing a blank. Maybe deemphasize the strat-battle component of renown and emphasize other sources (listed above)? So that generating renown specifically in strat fights is less a matter of gaining tickets than it is one of minimizing ticket losses? Maybe work the equation so that only soldiers on the winning side get a significant amount of renown, so that if you attack a fellow faction member you both end up balancing out renown-wise--trading the renown, almost; but if you beat a real enemy it'd be like you were taking renown for your faction from a new source.

2) Renown would be for tickets, and gold for human mercenaries.

Dotter

I agree that making fighting necessary to do more fighting is silly.

I'd suggest (again) deemphasizing fighting in strat battles for renown in relation to other potential sources. Keep the cRPG battle server as a minor source for renown and you can still get some that way, and from forum activity, etc.

Also, as a neutral strat clan you could use gold (generated from trade) to purchase troops from other players. Just some flexibility--another option.

Update: Yeah I typed a lot. I'm at "work", and I like the idea of you Canary. tl;dr: Emphasize alternative sources of renown and make it an individually earned, but transferable (within the faction) currency for troop purchasing in fiefs.
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Offline Canary

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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 10:19:47 pm »
0
What you are trying to propose is mandatory fighting to get more troops to be able to fight again and get even more troops so you could....

There are so many flaws i dont know where to start from... Well i started i guess with that quote and the sentence below.
Quincy Clan played a neutral role last round and we had so few battles it silly even to mention it. So basically with this system it will be next to impossible to have neutral clans.
There enough reason to fight each other without making a reason to fight each other in order to fight each other more.
Also, stat whoring is big enough without making renown another "new big thing"...
I dont have time to write more atm but if ppl rly like this idea i will...

People would still be able to remain on the map and participate without fighting to increase their troop counts, but they wouldn't be able to do it with larger army sizes. The idea is that if you don't fight, you have no reason to have that many tickets in the first place. Obviously this leaves neutral people and players interested primarily in trading at a disadvantage, but renown level being transferable would enable them to buy higher troop caps, making further reason to trade. 

In generally i like the idea.

But there are things, why i am totally against it.

1. When all participants are getting Reknown, no unknown Mercs will be accepted in Roster anymore. Just because they can create Soldiers with this Reknown - maybe those who are attacking u next time. I fear this will make Stratbattles to some Faction/Union-exclusive-Stratbattles.

2. Mercenarys want to have GOLD. They are maybe more interessted to fight for a more "reknown" guy, but still Gold is the Currency they want. So why should be Renown the Currency for new Soldier restrictions.

1. The idea is that only the person initiating the battle and the person defending the battle see increases to their renown level and renown points. If you aren't fighting on the map, you are not generating troops directly.

2. What I proposed wouldn't reward mercs with any renown at all. Renown level could be made transferable but using it as a reward is up to the discretion of the hiring player.

1) More renown points could be rewarded for more actions on the Strat map
2) If it's transferable then you could piggy-back a bit off of more active players, which would also help promote a sense of "faction wide renown".
3) Renown in Strat could be tied into renown on the forums. After all, if a brave warrior is a shit-talking baddie within his little warrior community, no one would realistically fight for him, right? At least respect or fear would be reflected in a high renown number, which you get from either impressing or otherwise gaining the prestige of fellow forum warriors.
4) You could still earn some renown in regular cRPG, which is easier to play than Strat is for casual or busy players. Tie it into an equation that balances time played with your k/d (you can be heroically skilled the few times you play, or play a lot and be well-known, or just be awesome).

There is the possibility of renown levels (and points) being gained from on-map affairs other than battles fought. Also, that's not a bad idea... regular cRPG servers rewarding renown points in small amounts just like they reward small amounts of strat silver. It wouldn't help much without the renown levels gained from on-map participation, though.

Also, fights begetting more fights... is that not what half of the game mode is about? People with low troop caps would still be able to fight, they just wouldn't be able to stack large armies without first working up to it (through trade or through fighting battles and expending troops themselves). The idea of making it necessary to expend troops in order to gain higher amounts of troops keeps factions from turtling to gain the biggest advantage and simultaneously slows down the gains of simply having a large pool of players farming tickets.

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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 10:20:12 pm »
0
So basically this reminds me of this thing:

(click to show/hide)

What you are trying to propose is mandatory fighting to get more troops to be able to fight again and get even more troops so you could....

There are so many flaws i dont know where to start from... Well i started i guess with that quote and the sentence below.
Quincy Clan played a neutral role last round and we had so few battles it silly even to mention it. So basically with this system it will be next to impossible to have neutral clans.
There enough reason to fight each other without making a reason to fight each other in order to fight each other more.
Also, stat whoring is big enough without making renown another "new big thing"...
I dont have time to write more atm but if ppl rly like this idea i will...

I don't like the idea in this thread but ahaha if you play strategus and don't fight you deserve to be punished heavily.
Clans like yours are the reason it is stale and bad a lot of the time.

Offline En_Dotter

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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 10:23:56 pm »
0
I don't like the idea in this thread but ahaha if you play strategus and don't fight you deserve to be punished heavily.
Clans like yours are the reason it is stale and bad a lot of the time.

It is funny how people look at the past events and pin the to the present. Sometimes people pin the present stuff to the past as well.

Where did u (and some others) get an idea that we would would play the same role in strat 5 that we did in strat 4?
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Offline dynamike

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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 10:43:01 pm »
+2
Hate to jump on this again and please do not see it as a personal critique, but:

The idea is that if you don't fight, you have no reason to have that many tickets in the first place.
I disagree with this. Strategus is supposed to be a clan/team based game, where people can play a lot of valuable roles besides just whacking people on their heads with swords. Traders, spies, caravan guards, fief managers etc. should all be rewarded the same way for playing their role in the game.

renown level being transferable would enable them to buy higher troop caps, making further reason to trade.
Transferring renown around seems to be another unnecessary micromanagement task in an already convoluded game mode, which should - if anything - be simplified and made less time intensive in terms of tedious tasks. This is the only way to keep people enganged in the long run and not have a few hardcore nerds manage everything and eventually burn out.

1. The idea is that only the person initiating the battle and the person defending the battle see increases to their renown level and renown points. If you aren't fighting on the map, you are not generating troops directly.
Only the battle initiators earning renown points would lead to internal conflicts in the clans about who can lead the army and click the damn attack button - when this should instead be a question of tactical advantage and reaction times.

Also, fights begetting more fights... is that not what half of the game mode is about?
Yes, half. But let's not disregard the other half. See my first post.
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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2014, 11:42:36 pm »
+1
It would hurt me if you had to play in strat battles to get tickets for strat (since I only have time to play in public servers for 30 minutes or so at a time).  But I think it would make sense that participation in strategus battles is how you get more troops in strategus overview.

The downside to this (besides it affecting me personally, which is moot), is that people might get very picky about who they accept into their battles.  If I know troop generation is based on who is participating in battles, you're going to most likely choose allies/friends etc over people who are lesser known (or not affiliated with clans).  This basically means that people trying to get into strategus are going to have an even harder time they would now. 
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Offline Canary

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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2014, 03:54:13 am »
0
It would hurt me if you had to play in strat battles to get tickets for strat (since I only have time to play in public servers for 30 minutes or so at a time).  But I think it would make sense that participation in strategus battles is how you get more troops in strategus overview.

I do like the attempt to downscale battles and make troops more valuable. But I am not a big fan of this idea since I, like many other people I am sure, have a very taxing work/life schedule and oftentimes cannot participate in Strat battles. On the other hand I have the option to play forum warrior or make some moves in Strat on the website during short breaks inside the office (as I am doing right now) or even on my mobile phone when on the go.

This suggestion would put people like myself in a severe disadvantage in Strat, since even though we are very active in the community, we cannot get in as many Strat battles as people who have more time at home to play the game.

What I meant was that it's based on battles initiated and battles defended on the strat map (though with bonus consequences for things that occur in-game), not that you gain renown for being a merc in-game. I'll edit the OP to reflect that more clearly.

The downside to this (besides it affecting me personally, which is moot), is that people might get very picky about who they accept into their battles.  If I know troop generation is based on who is participating in battles, you're going to most likely choose allies/friends etc over people who are lesser known (or not affiliated with clans).  This basically means that people trying to get into strategus are going to have an even harder time they would now.

People being picky about who they accept into their fights is already a concern, as people will generally try to do what they can to win a battle.


I disagree with this. Strategus is supposed to be a clan/team based game, where people can play a lot of valuable roles besides just whacking people on their heads with swords. Traders, spies, caravan guards, fief managers etc. should all be rewarded the same way for playing their role in the game.

Traders, fief managers and army generals, etc. are not presently rewarded in the "same way" for playing their respective roles. They are all vital, but the rewards for doing each role is separate and distinct, as it should be.

Transferring renown around seems to be another unnecessary micromanagement task in an already convoluded game mode, which should - if anything - be simplified and made less time intensive in terms of tedious tasks. This is the only way to keep people enganged in the long run and not have a few hardcore nerds manage everything and eventually burn out.

I don't get it... you want everyone to be able to do something, but you want the game systems simplified so that there's less to do?

I know what you mean, however. Transferring items onto armies, having to sort out used gear is tedious as all hell. Will one more thing you have to remember to transfer really improve the game? Personally, I think it would, but I also think the idea could use more hashing out and the details could be worked smoother.

It's a relatively simple system, in theory, client side. Two more resources to look after, with one being transferable. Both gained from the same actions. One is used for direct expenditures, the other is a cap on how much of said expenditure you can carry.

There is currently no limitation on troop growth besides upkeep from another map-only resource - gold silver. A linear increase in troop count per player capable of transferring troop tickets is not what I'd call ideal. In fact, I'd argue it leads to burnout among some players who get bored troop farming for factions trying to win by hoarding and turtling, and burnout among their enemies because their opponents had nothing hindering their growth. The trade system simply isn't effective enough at being a significant limitation on troop growth.

Only the battle initiators earning renown points would lead to internal conflicts in the clans about who can lead the army and click the damn attack button - when this should instead be a question of tactical advantage and reaction times.

The question of tactical advantage would be this: who can better manage their renown levels to make sure their faction isn't gimped by keeping it on too few people, or spreading it out on too many? I don't see how it would necessarily lead to anymore internal conflict than deciding who moves around the map with armies and who stays in fiefs and transfers troops over. If anything I see this as a way to get people more actively involved, if they want to do something or help out.

In fact, one of the the worst parts of it I can foresee is that it precludes people who aren't very interested in the map game mode to begin with from being able to contribute as much to their faction. No slave drone troop farmers. 

Yes, half. But let's not disregard the other half. See my first post.

But then, this is also a system to help limit the lopsidedness of that other half.


I understand that this would be a very drastic change to Strategus, probably even more so than any of us can imagine right now. I feel that a drastic change would give it a new feeling and that a different dynamic across the map is something that should be welcomed after the petering out strat 4 had before its end (or at least before the announcement that it was ending...). It forces people to fight before they can get the upper hand, instead of rewarding those who chose not to fight to get an advantage over those who did.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 04:02:27 am by Canary »

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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2014, 04:33:34 am »
+1
Troops definitely need a rework. I think renown -> troops is good, and fighting -> more renown -> more troops is good. Weekly cap to keep people from winning by playing 24/7 is a great idea. However, there should be a lower limit to let newcomers stand a chance (however small) of getting a foothold. There should also be heavy diminishing returns at high levels. Even with a weekly cap, big clans with active players will still steamroll smaller clans and discourage new factions.

I've always thought troops should be a regenerating resource from fiefs with a much slower passive gain anywhere else on the map. Your idea "can only be purchased in fiefs/penalty for purchasing in open field" is basically that. Owning the fief shouldn't make a difference. If you are well-known you can hire peasants based on your prestige. You don't have to legally own them to conscript them into your army.
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Offline Kamirane

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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2014, 06:15:20 am »
0
Some other suggestion:
(and maybe sorry for my bad english)

Why not binding the right of raising troops to fiefs. So someone who wants to get troops must stay inside a fief. But this should not be the only thing.
So lets get each fief a daily troop limit (just for an example, a village, 100 troops per day. Every "recruiter" gets 1 soldier per hour. So this village can provide 4 recruiters without any problem. If there are more than 4 People in it, it would be divided by those.
To get a little advantage in recruiting, give someone with a high reknown a little advantage in a slight multiplier. maybe 1% up to 5%.

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Re: New System to Limit Troop Tickets
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2014, 09:21:17 pm »
+1
Too complicated for me.

Preferred Suggestion
Instead just up the personal troop cap of non-transferable tickets to 200 and make it so that you do not need ticks to get them. Then have a cap of a further 2 troops per strat tick up to a max of 200 tickets for each player however this additional capacity would be applied to a player's faction and not the individual player meaning it does not matter who in the faction has those tickets.

Example
- This means a faction with 10 players, 6 of whom have 100 or more Strat ticks each and one of which had 50 strat ticks, would be capped at 1300 transferable tickets (200*6 + 50*2) although each player could still have a further 200 tickets on them as well.  Whether the faction has 1 player with all 1300 tickets, puts them all in a fief, or spreads them out is up to them.

Additions
- To make this better strat ticks should be gain able from strat battles
- Renown can be used as a modifier to increase recruitment speeds to reward battle active factions.  This would either need to be based on relative renown or renown would need to decay though in order to keep it balanced.
- I'd drop Villages to 200 population maximum in this and prevent topping up of fief populations as this will ensure that active solo players are always a threat with their 400 tickets.  Similarly Castles should have just 500 population and Town's 2000.

PROs
- A simple linear cap based on player numbers.
- Splitting factions gives you no advantage.
- Merging factions gives no non-proportional benefits either.
- No extra micro management, although you still have to ensure your players are passing on their tickets.

Estimate of total troops
- At a guess there were 1000 players in EU factions of which 250 probably had ticks.  This would put the total troops at any one time on EU at 250,000 of which only 50,000 are freely transferable within your own faction.  That sounds pretty good to me.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 09:24:49 pm by Tomas »