cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gnjus on February 05, 2018, 02:41:56 pm

Title: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gnjus on February 05, 2018, 02:41:56 pm
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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: //saxon on February 05, 2018, 02:45:43 pm
all within 5 seconds then he then made another kill with a body shot, 1 second later  :lol: :lol:

(No joke) yeah it's kind of a joke thooo
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Captain_Georges on February 05, 2018, 02:45:53 pm
we were talking about the very same occurrence in TS lol
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Kenda on February 05, 2018, 02:48:04 pm
"If we nerf ranged any more it will be useless" - Random ranged apologist.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Dalhi on February 05, 2018, 02:57:00 pm
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,373023.0.html (https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,373023.0.html)  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: the real god emperor on February 05, 2018, 03:10:07 pm
Please.. That dude is one of the best native dwelling Turks and this isn't a play that occurs every round. I am not saying ranged is perfectly balanced, but this is barely evidence towards it being OP.

nerf tho
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: njames89 on February 05, 2018, 03:12:18 pm
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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Captain_Georges on February 05, 2018, 03:34:31 pm
but this is barely evidence towards it being OP.

it is a good argument tho
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: the real god emperor on February 05, 2018, 03:38:04 pm
Best thing you can do to get archery nerfed is making an archer yourself and focusing balancers constantly, or even better, focus Prof.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: darmaster on February 05, 2018, 03:47:14 pm
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again, that doesn't work. also it should be "acquire a blocking device AND spend some skill points on shield skill"; which is basically saying "don't play the class you'd like to, change to the only one that is a viable counter (it's not really) to ranged, then enjoy the game :) the way we think you should"
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: njames89 on February 05, 2018, 03:54:01 pm
again, that doesn't work. also it should be "acquire a blocking device AND spend some skill points on shield skill"; which is basically saying "don't play the class you'd like to, change to the only one that is a viable counter (it's not really) to ranged, then enjoy the game :) the way we think you should"

Several shields were made 0 difficulty. I got one myself I quite like it.

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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gnjus on February 05, 2018, 04:00:56 pm
Several shields were made 0 difficulty. I got one myself I quite like it.

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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: darmaster on February 05, 2018, 04:02:26 pm
hmm i have to think you rarely use it; xbowers will have an easy target slowed down by raising his shield, they'll just have to aim correctly and shoot you in the head (it will penetrate your shield).
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: bensai on February 05, 2018, 04:09:04 pm
Several shields were made 0 difficulty. I got one myself I quite like it.

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i carry that exact same shield with 1 point in shielding and bolts and arrows literally go through it more than they get stopped by it. I might stop 1 arrow out of 5
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: njames89 on February 05, 2018, 04:17:44 pm
I might stop 1 arrow

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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Jona on February 05, 2018, 04:22:19 pm
the only one that is a viable counter (it's not really) to ranged

People really need to dispel the notion that shields are a counter to ranged. At best, they're a coping mechanism.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: njames89 on February 05, 2018, 04:24:42 pm
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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Butan on February 05, 2018, 04:26:08 pm
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Normal people reaction: "damn, that guy is good"

Haters reaction: "nerf ranged"
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gnjus on February 05, 2018, 04:49:31 pm
Normal people reaction: "damn, that guy is good"

Haters reaction: "nerf ranged"

Let's see what we've got here, normies or haters. Poll added.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: XyNox on February 05, 2018, 04:59:45 pm
Oh whats this ? Are we doing another round of "nerfing by singular screenshots" ?

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Dont worry guys I got you covered. I will see to it that 2h and pole nerf will be top priority, as you can clearly judge by this exhibit of scientific evidence above.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: darmaster on February 05, 2018, 05:29:29 pm
hold on a second, i'm the first not calling a nerf because of a screenshot, but the contexts of those 2 posted are very different; one is a 5 consecutively headshots made by the same guy in less than a minute, the other could be replaced easily by a zero_sat, bagge, daveukr and many other not exactly melee players top scoring
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Sparvico on February 05, 2018, 05:37:28 pm
Honestly the real problem EU has with ranged isn't that a single archer or xbower is over powered, it's that half  of the EU player base chooses to be ranged. We have the exact same weapons here in NA but lack this epidemic of ranged players, so the real question becomes "what makes the NA players mindset and moral character so superior to the average europer".

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Incidentally we really need a working hack detection system back, as currently any chump as wants to can download any amount of skill they desire.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Bittersteel on February 05, 2018, 06:03:41 pm
I have said it plenty of times, the problem with ranged is their numbers, not their power.

2 archers can be dealt with, 5 on the other hand, not.

I honestly don't think range is OP currently. There I said it.

What is OP, however, is the number of people that utilize it.

look here nerds. i genuinely think that the issue is NOT the MAP or the amount of RANGED on a single team OR the OPness of archers as much as it is about the PURE QUANTITY OF RANGED PLAYERS.

Honestly the real problem EU has with ranged isn't that a single archer or xbower is over powered, it's that half  of the EU player base chooses to be ranged.

Wow honestly? thanks bro
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Sparvico on February 05, 2018, 06:06:35 pm
Not my fault you shitbirds have 15 different threads open about this at the moment.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Bittersteel on February 05, 2018, 06:14:11 pm
Shitbird (http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/thank-you-gentleman/) only made one thread, he also said this actually
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: bensai on February 05, 2018, 06:16:15 pm
hey i said it first just remember that

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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Thryn on February 05, 2018, 06:51:14 pm
i disgrace myself with this photo

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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Grytviken on February 05, 2018, 07:31:11 pm
Honestly the real problem EU has with ranged isn't that a single archer or xbower is over powered, it's that half  of the EU player base chooses to be ranged. We have the exact same weapons here in NA but lack this epidemic of ranged players, so the real question becomes "what makes the NA players mindset and moral character so superior to the average europer".

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Incidentally we really need a working hack detection system back, as currently any chump as wants to can download any amount of skill they desire.

Incidentally the balance team does the opposite to fix the problem of too many range at hand, they make stronger range builds more accessible at lower levels and to STF chars by lowering requirements instead of making them only obtainable to higher lvl dedicated range players.

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Jaren on February 05, 2018, 08:00:16 pm
i disgrace myself with this photo

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You bastard.

To be fair, I was sporting my fashionable Donkey Helmet - Available now with your Patreon support!
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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Nehvar on February 05, 2018, 08:21:06 pm
Where's the poll option for "spec him for aimbot usage"?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: mr_baby_head on February 05, 2018, 08:32:58 pm
Cheating is rampant in this community....
Cut down numbers of ranged or the melee players will leave, it is simply not fun anymore.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Butan on February 05, 2018, 08:48:31 pm
Aim bots for non hitscan weapons is stupid.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Penitent on February 05, 2018, 09:01:28 pm
My char is 1h/shield AND xbow.

As a shield user, a shield is absolutely helpful against ranged.  Almost OP.  It, like, blocks the arrow.

As a ranged user, shields absolutely block my shit.  Seeing one makes me choose a different target, or waste my bolt shooting a piece of wood.

If you can afford IF in your build, you can afford a decent shield in your build.
If you don't put IF or shield skill in your build, you're asking to die regardless.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 05, 2018, 09:19:04 pm
Wouldve been nice to see what kind of situation they were in to get headshot so easily. It doesnt mean much if they were unshielded in the open, or completely unaware of the archer.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: bensai on February 05, 2018, 09:58:06 pm
My char is 1h/shield AND xbow.

As a shield user, a shield is absolutely helpful against ranged.  Almost OP.  It, like, blocks the arrow.

As a ranged user, shields absolutely block my shit.  Seeing one makes me choose a different target, or waste my bolt shooting a piece of wood.

If you can afford IF in your build, you can afford a decent shield in your build.
If you don't put IF or shield skill in your build, you're asking to die regardless.

firstly, fuck you for playing ranged. secondly, by saying that seeing a shield makes you decide to focus

someone without a shield means

 the more people that bring shields the fewer people there are without shields, meaning those shield-less

people will eventually get focuses by range SO MUCH they will start bringing a shield, or

quit the game, or play ranged themselves MEANING that EVENTUALLY the only two classes left in the

 game are RANGED AND

SHIELDS

U LIEK THAT LOGIC???
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: bensai on February 05, 2018, 09:58:49 pm
F4GGOT?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: McKli_PL on February 05, 2018, 10:20:55 pm
firstly, fuck you for playing ranged. secondly, by saying that seeing a shield makes you decide to focus
U LIEK THAT LOGIC???

son ur playing on NA, toping and surviving on this server is so ez even with monitor off, playing with legs, faping with one hand and smoking weed in other :) plz stahp with your golden advices
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Leshma on February 06, 2018, 12:23:24 am
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,373023.0.html (https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,373023.0.html)  :mrgreen:

Guess RasFrenzy wasn't so crazy after all :lol:
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: bensai on February 06, 2018, 01:44:11 am
son ur playing on NA, toping and surviving on this server is so ez even with monitor off, playing with legs, faping with one hand and smoking weed in other :) plz stahp with your golden advices

dropped some logic on me
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Pawiu on February 06, 2018, 02:36:49 am
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hah good one but now its more like this:
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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: dreadnok on February 06, 2018, 02:51:00 am
Several shields were made 0 difficulty. I got one myself I quite like it.

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yes, but from my experience as a longtime shielder is that if you have no block skill you will def get hit around it.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: //saxon on February 06, 2018, 04:18:56 am
Wouldve been nice to see what kind of situation they were in to get headshot so easily. It doesnt mean much if they were unshielded in the open, or completely unaware of the archer.

on the map Tumulus, near one side's spawn, open field, sun shining, birds a hooting and old Airel is shooting the shit out of his enemies.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Nightingale on February 06, 2018, 09:54:19 am
hah good one but now its more like this:
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See this is the result if that poor chap didn't have a proper blocking device.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Hlin on February 06, 2018, 10:18:03 am
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Xbow lives matter.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Jaren on February 06, 2018, 10:47:35 am
yes, but from my experience as a longtime shielder is that if you have no block skill you will def get hit around it.
Literally never seen u play a shielder. Fake news.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Ikarus on February 06, 2018, 03:01:55 pm
by all the current hysteria I wonder how a patch would turn out where all ranged weapons were just nerfed into oblivion

just to see if the mod is more enjoyable without any ranged at all

Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: njames89 on February 06, 2018, 03:06:44 pm
Remove ranged, remove cav, remove melee combat. Perfect game. Let us rejoice and play peaceful resource gathering RPG.

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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Umbra on February 06, 2018, 04:29:25 pm
Buff ranged
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Butan on February 06, 2018, 04:45:01 pm
Remove ranged, remove cav, remove melee combat. Perfect game. Let us rejoice and play peaceful resource gathering RPG.

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Some people would fare better on Persistent World  :mrgreen:  cRPG isnt for everyone.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Algarn on February 06, 2018, 05:47:18 pm
by all the current hysteria I wonder how a patch would turn out where all ranged weapons were just nerfed into oblivion

just to see if the mod is more enjoyable without any ranged at all

You'd see either :

- cav dominating on open fields
- MLG tier players unhindered by ranged able to go polearm/2h, as well as a sharp decrease in shield-using infantry. The only way to fight them would be to have even more ganks.

Wouldn't be much better for the average player when you think about it. If you get cav nerfed into Oblivion as well, only the second scenario remains. cRPG is (or was ?) based around the diversity of builds, people tend to forget how OP everything was back in 2012, and I am those who think it was better this way. People play warband for the whole package, if you play a mod without anything but melee, it dies pretty quickly overall, not only because it makes little sense historically, but also gameplay-wise. I'm not saying getting peppered with arrows isn't annoying, because even as an archer, it is annoying to get shot 5 times before you can retaliate, but without archers on the battlefield, you don't get the ability to harass attackers on siege maps, nor you get to take down cavalry/high value targets without them wrecking you.

But again, screaming about how OP archers are is way easier than remembering the times when a bowman with agility could 1 hit everyone in the head, and asking for their removal is easier than trying to picture that scenario if it happened.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Telford on February 06, 2018, 06:44:55 pm
Cav dominating? Bullshit. Cav has infantry counters galore.
The only mid-battle counter to ranged is ranged, however.


It can't be countered, and it has a hilarious influence over the combat - especially with current numbers.
It is just literally OP, even though on a realistic basis I wouldn't choose to nerf ranged, etc. But the fact is, it's just effective asf. And that's causing issues.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 06, 2018, 06:56:18 pm
Cav is not hard countered by infantry unless infantry completely bunkers up. I'm fairly certain if there are statistics on class effectiveness, cav would have quite a higher average k/d and damage deal than any other class. Not to mention how much a bump changes a fight.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Telford on February 06, 2018, 07:16:42 pm
You know how people say, ranged - get shield?
They don't say, cavalry - get pike? Because literally anything can kill horses, including mid-combat. It is easy for an agi 2h to deject from the fight they're in, to stab a horse coming from their rear / block down.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 06, 2018, 07:28:33 pm
You know how people say, ranged - get shield?
They don't say, cavalry - get pike? Because literally anything can kill horses, including mid-combat. It is easy for an agi 2h to deject from the fight they're in, to stab a horse coming from their rear / block down.

Oh yes, of course. A hoplite maybe, since otherwise you get shot. But thats just looking at it through a lens where you expect people to completely play around cav by bunkering up. I mean technically all melee weapons are useless because you can literally block every swing coming at you, but that isnt realistic. Cav will always find people that cannot adapt in time, and will almost certainly die to 1 hit couch or bump. Thats just how the class works, not saying its OP (though i do wish stakes actually 1 shot horses again, they are pathetic now afaik), but it is from my perspective the most impactful class.



And on the topic of ranged. Ranged only does alright damage currently because melee does equally shitty damage. Buff melee dmg values further, power strike buffs, turnrates, swing speeds etc etc. Not only would it feel more impactful to play melee then, as it would be easier to be a king for a day for even the worst players, but it would (probably) end the melee clashes slightly faster or force people to be more defensive. Which in turn would either make people play around ranged more, or simply since the melee destroys one side so quickly they will march down the ranged in numbers.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Thorvic on February 06, 2018, 07:36:38 pm
Cav is not hard countered by infantry unless infantry completely bunkers up. I'm fairly certain if there are statistics on class effectiveness, cav would have quite a higher average k/d and damage deal than any other class. Not to mention how much a bump changes a fight.

You would not have say this if you played cav on different warband mods.

On cRPG, bumpslash damages are heavily reduced, while it isn't on other multiplayer mods ; lance can only be used to attack towards the front direction, while on other mods you can turn 180° while attacking. In addition to that, the high number of ranged of all types doesn't help when it comes to support the team and do some kills in general, because the horse armor value doesn't follow the huge amount of damages delivered by arrows/bolts/throwing weapons (it's true on Strategus battles, it is even more true on EU1, it only requires 5 bodkin arrows to take down my +3 plated charger, bs imo).

About bump effectiveness, it can be temperated if we consider that cRPG is the only warband multiplayer mod to give footman players the ability to make a roll on left/right so you don't get ganked if you pay attention to the game.

So please, don't tell me cavalry cannot be countered easily on cRPG, if it was that good, you would be able to see way more players actually playing that class. From my own warband experience I can tell that cav is way more stronger on ALL other mods, and it doesn't really bother the players.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 06, 2018, 07:53:15 pm
You would not have say this if you played cav on different warband mods.

On cRPG, bumpslash damages are heavily reduced, while it isn't on other multiplayer mods ; lance can only be used to attack towards the front direction, while on other mods you can turn 180° while attacking. In addition to that, the high number of ranged of all types doesn't help when it comes to support the team and do some kills in general, because the horse armor value doesn't follow the huge amount of damages delivered by arrows/bolts/throwing weapons (it's true on Strategus battles, it is even more true on EU1, it only requires 5 bodkin arrows to take down my +3 plated charger, bs imo).

About bump effectiveness, it can be temperated if we consider that cRPG is the only warband multiplayer mod to give footman players the ability to make a roll on left/right so you don't get ganked if you pay attention to the game.

So please, don't tell me cavalry cannot be countered easily on cRPG, if it was that good, you would be able to see way more players actually playing that class. From my own warband experience I can tell that cav is way more stronger on ALL other mods, and it doesn't really bother the players.

Everything is stronger in other mods than they are in crpg, everything is gutter trash here. But the nature of cav automatically makes it the dominant class and soon as youve got some experience on your hands, and allows for the highest possible effectiveness. As soon as some good lancers/1h cav pops up they will destroy, but the effectiveness drops as there are fewer players on the server so theres that too. Plated charger is a terrible horse btw.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Paul on February 06, 2018, 10:46:47 pm
What percentage of the overall kills would be acceptable for ranged to have? 15%? 20%?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Corsair831 on February 07, 2018, 12:38:04 am
What percentage of the overall kills would be acceptable for ranged to have? 15%? 20%?

In order to play cRPG people must first be forced to play 500 hours of native. People will then learn that shields are capable of blocking arrows. People will then understand that shields are useful. People will then stop crying about ranged, every 2 seconds.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Paul on February 07, 2018, 08:59:04 am
What is the perceived percentage of ranged kills at the moment?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Corsair831 on February 07, 2018, 05:36:39 pm
What is the perceived percentage of ranged kills at the moment?

~10%. I rarely see ranged doing anywhere near as well as melee
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Paul on February 07, 2018, 06:09:08 pm
~10%. I rarely see ranged doing anywhere near as well as melee

Pretty good guess. I think it's 11% now.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gurnisson on February 07, 2018, 06:34:05 pm
Pretty good guess. I think it's 11% now.

Do you have server statistics? I remember cmp posting them before, and they were quite interesting to analyze
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Osiris on February 07, 2018, 07:09:25 pm
In order to play cRPG people must first be forced to play 500 hours of native. People will then learn that shields are capable of blocking arrows. People will then understand that shields are useful. People will then stop crying about ranged, every 2 seconds.

problem with that is people want to try things that are not role playing native inf.

big differences though, native inf can carry shields and throwing weapons without being gimped in melee, if you build a char that can throw at archers, stop cav and block arrows in crpg you are going to get rekt by everyone else, thats if you can even catch a crossbower :p and native cav have the tools to take on archers, crpg cav cant really bump slash/stab very well and cant circle and stab at archers.


Archers can be a problem because of the numbers of them, and the numbers can be a problem due to inf/cav inability to deal with them easily. Archers can camp on a roof (which a lot of maps have perfect camp spots) and your average inf has little to no way to really do much to them.

The shield skill reduction is very nice and will work once people figure out they have to aim their shields up or down (i assume you can still do that in crpg ^^) The next step is some simple throwing or to un nerf cav :D

My Suggestion
The 0 skill throwing lances are great for a first volly or anti cav but i would like to see one of or all of the following reduced to 0 difficulty: Darts, War Darts, Throwing daggers, snowflakes, shurikans, With no power throw and no wpf they will be pretty inaccurate and deal limited damage to archers who are high str and a little more damage maybe to agi xbowers.

This wont make throwing OP as most of these hits would be at most annoying and probably bounce off high armour inf but it will help move archers from encamped positions, instead of 5-10 inf walking slowly with or without shields there may be 5-10 inf walking and throwing low damage projectiles that can stun, this will force archers away from stupid open spots like rooftops where they can fire with ease and into firing spots that are better for lower numbers of ranged. Towers and doorways etc give archers spots that are just as good but you cant put 5 of them up there firing at the same time like with a roof.

tl:dr with pew pew! problem is mainly the maps and most maps having easily reached from one side pew pew spots that end up with lots of pew pew on. melee having baby pew pew will make bigger pew pew spread out a little bit so the pew pew will be more pew pew and less pew pew pew pew pew pew with massed spots
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: njames89 on February 07, 2018, 07:29:09 pm
0 difficulty: Throwing daggers, snowflakes, shurikans

I think that makes a lot of sense
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: kasMVC on February 07, 2018, 07:36:54 pm
i put this exact suggestino in suggestion corner stop ripping me off. Just like i said buff shields and when panos says it u all upvote him iw ant recogntiitontiotnotn
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Osiris on February 07, 2018, 07:59:05 pm
i put this exact suggestino in suggestion corner stop ripping me off. Just like i said buff shields and when panos says it u all upvote him iw ant recogntiitontiotnotn

just read your post didn't see it before. perhaps try a more constructive tone in your threads to gain traction :P

I didn't post to try to gain credit for a suggestion, you can have all the recognition and glory? you want if they make the changes ^^ I am sure you will feel warm and fuzzy inside
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Leesin on February 07, 2018, 08:11:08 pm
Tbh the ability to twirl and change direction with an arrow drawn makes it difficult for even cav to take out a decent archer, ducking, changing direction, twirling, all while drawing and firing arrows. Even worse when any kind of object is present for the archer to twirl around firing arrows, cav stand little chance at taking out what should be their easiest targets in many scenarios, it's only bad unaware archers that get back stabbed without reaction. Sadly that is something that extends to the engine and game itself, it would be difficult to balance without butchering archers.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: kasMVC on February 07, 2018, 08:14:55 pm
just read your post didn't see it before. perhaps try a more constructive tone in your threads to gain traction :P

I didn't post to try to gain credit for a suggestion, you can have all the recognition and glory? you want if they make the changes ^^ I am sure you will feel warm and fuzzy inside

haha just playing i hope this happens though xdxdxdxdxdxd
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Asheram on February 07, 2018, 08:47:24 pm
See you on monday cikel
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Corsair831 on February 07, 2018, 08:51:04 pm
problem with that is people want to try things that are not role playing native inf.

big differences though, native inf can carry shields and throwing weapons without being gimped in melee, if you build a char that can throw at archers, stop cav and block arrows in crpg you are going to get rekt by everyone else, thats if you can even catch a crossbower :p and native cav have the tools to take on archers, crpg cav cant really bump slash/stab very well and cant circle and stab at archers.


Archers can be a problem because of the numbers of them, and the numbers can be a problem due to inf/cav inability to deal with them easily. Archers can camp on a roof (which a lot of maps have perfect camp spots) and your average inf has little to no way to really do much to them.

The shield skill reduction is very nice and will work once people figure out they have to aim their shields up or down (i assume you can still do that in crpg ^^) The next step is some simple throwing or to un nerf cav :D

My Suggestion
The 0 skill throwing lances are great for a first volly or anti cav but i would like to see one of or all of the following reduced to 0 difficulty: Darts, War Darts, Throwing daggers, snowflakes, shurikans, With no power throw and no wpf they will be pretty inaccurate and deal limited damage to archers who are high str and a little more damage maybe to agi xbowers.

This wont make throwing OP as most of these hits would be at most annoying and probably bounce off high armour inf but it will help move archers from encamped positions, instead of 5-10 inf walking slowly with or without shields there may be 5-10 inf walking and throwing low damage projectiles that can stun, this will force archers away from stupid open spots like rooftops where they can fire with ease and into firing spots that are better for lower numbers of ranged. Towers and doorways etc give archers spots that are just as good but you cant put 5 of them up there firing at the same time like with a roof.

tl:dr with pew pew! problem is mainly the maps and most maps having easily reached from one side pew pew spots that end up with lots of pew pew on. melee having baby pew pew will make bigger pew pew spread out a little bit so the pew pew will be more pew pew and less pew pew pew pew pew pew with massed spots

Not true about the throwing, try this build

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Using 50 body armour, javelins and a heavy round shield. Javelins 3 shot most archers (~~35 body armour, most are strength builds), you get 10 javelins. 135 WPF is easily enough to fight in melee
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Paul on February 08, 2018, 07:54:53 am
Do you have server statistics? I remember cmp posting them before, and they were quite interesting to analyze

I think Professor has only kill stats. Up to him to post them I think.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Umbra on February 08, 2018, 10:00:53 pm
So, when is the ranged buff?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: bensai on February 09, 2018, 06:43:23 am
problem with that is people want to try things that are not role playing native inf.

big differences though, native inf can carry shields and throwing weapons without being gimped in melee, if you build a char that can throw at archers, stop cav and block arrows in crpg you are going to get rekt by everyone else, thats if you can even catch a crossbower :p and native cav have the tools to take on archers, crpg cav cant really bump slash/stab very well and cant circle and stab at archers.


Archers can be a problem because of the numbers of them, and the numbers can be a problem due to inf/cav inability to deal with them easily. Archers can camp on a roof (which a lot of maps have perfect camp spots) and your average inf has little to no way to really do much to them.

The shield skill reduction is very nice and will work once people figure out they have to aim their shields up or down (i assume you can still do that in crpg ^^) The next step is some simple throwing or to un nerf cav :D

My Suggestion
The 0 skill throwing lances are great for a first volly or anti cav but i would like to see one of or all of the following reduced to 0 difficulty: Darts, War Darts, Throwing daggers, snowflakes, shurikans, With no power throw and no wpf they will be pretty inaccurate and deal limited damage to archers who are high str and a little more damage maybe to agi xbowers.

This wont make throwing OP as most of these hits would be at most annoying and probably bounce off high armour inf but it will help move archers from encamped positions, instead of 5-10 inf walking slowly with or without shields there may be 5-10 inf walking and throwing low damage projectiles that can stun, this will force archers away from stupid open spots like rooftops where they can fire with ease and into firing spots that are better for lower numbers of ranged. Towers and doorways etc give archers spots that are just as good but you cant put 5 of them up there firing at the same time like with a roof.

tl:dr with pew pew! problem is mainly the maps and most maps having easily reached from one side pew pew spots that end up with lots of pew pew on. melee having baby pew pew will make bigger pew pew spread out a little bit so the pew pew will be more pew pew and less pew pew pew pew pew pew with massed spots

i agree with a lot of that and something particular was how you mentioned cav's inability to deal with archers

--- cavs inability to deal with archers --- like really? cavalry in pretty much all medieval video games is used to attack light infantry and archers. while i know cRPG isn't total war attila or whatever, the point remains that archers have far to much power over cavalry

specifics: my +3 destrier can easily get 1 shot by str archers and heavyxbow/arbs if im charging them. it's really ridiculous how weak and non-durable all horses apart from like the plated charger really are. as if cavalry doesn't have enough trouble dealing with any infantryman with half a brain on how to counter cav, they can't even pick of the enemies holding bows and crossbows.

secondly, when you close the distance on an archer while charging them and you miss your swing or get shot/interrupted, you have two choices: keep riding past and hope they dont shoot you and finish you/your horse off, or you can stop your horse and try to melee them/dismount. if you dismount, they run away. you can't catch them since you probably don't have much athletics. you try to melee them off of horseback and they just circle your horse and stay in your melee "blind spots" where you can't hit them. the turn rate on horses is atrocious. a fully stopped horse should be able to turn very quickly. horses should only be affected by their maneuver statistic at higher speeds. it just makes no sense that an archer can outcircle your horses turnrate
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Asheram on February 09, 2018, 06:58:21 am
Bute even if you nerfed cav vs ranged they would still go for the unaware in a fight guys back of the head.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: XyNox on February 09, 2018, 07:50:14 am
you try to melee them off of horseback and they just circle your horse and stay in your melee "blind spots" where you can't hit them. the turn rate on horses is atrocious. a fully stopped horse should be able to turn very quickly. horses should only be affected by their maneuver statistic at higher speeds. it just makes no sense that an archer can outcircle your horses turnrate

So what you are saying is we need a horse rear hoof kick that knocks down people behind the horse and deals damage.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Asheram on February 09, 2018, 08:18:25 am
So what you are saying is we need a horse rear hoof kick that knocks down people behind the horse and deals damage.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: bensai on February 09, 2018, 08:45:25 am
So what you are saying is we need a horse rear hoof kick that knocks down people behind the horse and deals damage.

not a bad start
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Leesin on February 09, 2018, 10:32:27 am
i agree with a lot of that and something particular was how you mentioned cav's inability to deal with archers

--- cavs inability to deal with archers --- like really? cavalry in pretty much all medieval video games is used to attack light infantry and archers. while i know cRPG isn't total war attila or whatever, the point remains that archers have far to much power over cavalry

specifics: my +3 destrier can easily get 1 shot by str archers and heavyxbow/arbs if im charging them. it's really ridiculous how weak and non-durable all horses apart from like the plated charger really are. as if cavalry doesn't have enough trouble dealing with any infantryman with half a brain on how to counter cav, they can't even pick of the enemies holding bows and crossbows.

secondly, when you close the distance on an archer while charging them and you miss your swing or get shot/interrupted, you have two choices: keep riding past and hope they dont shoot you and finish you/your horse off, or you can stop your horse and try to melee them/dismount. if you dismount, they run away. you can't catch them since you probably don't have much athletics. you try to melee them off of horseback and they just circle your horse and stay in your melee "blind spots" where you can't hit them. the turn rate on horses is atrocious. a fully stopped horse should be able to turn very quickly. horses should only be affected by their maneuver statistic at higher speeds. it just makes no sense that an archer can outcircle your horses turnrate

To quote myself
Tbh the ability to twirl and change direction with an arrow drawn makes it difficult for even cav to take out a decent archer, ducking, changing direction, twirling, all while drawing and firing arrows. Even worse when any kind of object is present for the archer to twirl around firing arrows, cav stand little chance at taking out what should be their easiest targets in many scenarios, it's only bad unaware archers that get back stabbed without reaction. Sadly that is something that extends to the engine and game itself, it would be difficult to balance without butchering archers.

The fact they can do all that while drawing and firing arrows is what makes it absolute cancer, like you say, Cavalry really are supposed to counter ranged at close range, but it just doesn't work well because of the game itself, but also because how archers can twirl and move into your blind spots, all while drawing and firing arrows. How we combat this without ruining ranged I don't know, but HA was nerfed into the ground and I still play my HA along with several other players, so I don't see why foot archery can't be nerfed a bit too. Throwers are another story and I am not actually completely against them being able to maneuver so well, it makes more sense when considering the action of holding and throwing weapons compared to holding and firing arrows from a bow, even though I think throwing knives are cancer aimbot stuff lol.

It's a tough scenario but there are several options and I think the team could try them out even just temporarily to get feedback.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gravoth_iii on February 09, 2018, 12:01:49 pm
I do think cav in equal numbers to the archers would crush them, but its kind of hard to organize cav charges like that while archers are naturally just sticking together. But ive mentioned also the gimped nature of cav struggles to pick agile targets off, nerfing something may have bad side effects which ive noticed a lot, but maybe not everyone considers it that way.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Grumbs on February 10, 2018, 10:32:15 am
Is there a coder that could add reflective team damage but just for projectiles (with a damage multiplier)? So if you do 20 damage to a team mate you receive 60 damage yourself too. Then watch people switch class so they don't kill themselves once the melee team fights start
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Ikarus on February 10, 2018, 10:44:35 am
if people at least would have the dignity to not play ranged when there's 10- people on the server

that'd be great and wouldn't kill the mod
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Volk. on February 10, 2018, 10:49:47 am
make each bow require current number+1 power draw pls unplayable
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Asheram on February 10, 2018, 08:36:51 pm
if people at least would have the dignity to not play ranged when there's 10- people on the server

that'd be great and wouldn't kill the mod
And if people would also not play cav on a 10 or lower people server

that'd be great and wouldn't kill the mod
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Yeldur on February 10, 2018, 09:19:54 pm
if you elect me as chancellor of germany c-rpg i promise i will round up all the archers and gas give them a nice shower with hot water (but not too hot) water. i promise this will almost DEFINITELY quell the issue.


signed,

Yeldolf Ladoitler
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Butan on February 10, 2018, 09:46:38 pm
When people say "do/dont do X or Y to not kill the game", it often means the game is dead or dying, and is just hopeful thinking.
Whether cRPG is dead or not, most of the things trying to artificially make it last longer is going to produce adverse effects.
The best thing to do is just to let the players do their thing and ride it 'till is over.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Leshma on February 10, 2018, 10:25:16 pm
Didn't you guys successfully revive cRPG few months ago? Can't be dead again, can it? I don't play it myself but it seems every player I ever crossed path on virtual battlefield is playing.

As long there is crying about ranged, cRPG is doing just fine. Dying phase begins with Krems qq threads and ends with nothingness.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Umbra on February 28, 2018, 09:47:00 pm
Krems killed the mod
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Asheram on March 02, 2018, 07:24:59 am
Do people really quit crpg when there is alot of ranged to go play pubg? Do they get mad about ranged and go play an all range game? Why wouldn't they just play range here then?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Leesin on March 02, 2018, 08:34:02 am
Do people really quit crpg when there is alot of ranged to go play pubg? Do they get mad about ranged and go play an all range game? Why wouldn't they just play range here then?

Mainly because if they wanted to play a shooting game, they go play a game that is pretty much strictly shooting. I think most people play CRPG for a decent mix of classes and not just having half of each team as archers/xbows.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 02, 2018, 01:08:21 pm
Mainly because if they wanted to play a shooting game, they go play a game that is pretty much strictly shooting. I think most people play CRPG for a decent mix of classes and not just having half of each team as archers/xbows.

Isnt a 50/50 divide a decent mix?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Corsair831 on March 02, 2018, 03:42:04 pm
Mainly because if they wanted to play a shooting game, they go play a game that is pretty much strictly shooting. I think most people play CRPG for a decent mix of classes and not just having half of each team as archers/xbows.

Doubt I've ever seen above 40% ranged
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Leesin on March 02, 2018, 07:12:24 pm
Isnt a 50/50 divide a decent mix?

Not when you then factor in throwers and it starts feeling like 3 out of 4 players have some kind of ranged weapon at times lol. Even 2 out of 3 is enough to create a cancerous atmosphere on a lot of the maps.

Doubt I've ever seen above 40% ranged

I can guarantee that in the past two weeks I have seen it above even 60% several times if you include throwers too. Some people come on, play one round as Melee and GTFO because they can't be fucked to deal with that shit. So the server struggles to hold a melee pop, while the ranged stays. I even respecced away from HA to try reduce the amount of ranged, but tbh the amount of ranged playing some times, just makes me want to respec back to HA just so I can fucking shoot them.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Corsair831 on March 02, 2018, 07:58:35 pm
Not when you then factor in throwers and it starts feeling like 3 out of 4 players have some kind of ranged weapon at times lol. Even 2 out of 3 is enough to create a cancerous atmosphere on a lot of the maps.

I can guarantee that in the past two weeks I have seen it above even 60% several times if you include throwers too. Some people come on, play one round as Melee and GTFO because they can't be fucked to deal with that shit. So the server struggles to hold a melee pop, while the ranged stays. I even respecced away from HA to try reduce the amount of ranged, but tbh the amount of ranged playing some times, just makes me want to respec back to HA just so I can fucking shoot them.

I just don't think that's correct, i usually see more 2h alone than ranged, nvm melee in general
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Leesin on March 02, 2018, 08:50:43 pm
I just don't think that's correct, i usually see more 2h alone than ranged, nvm melee in general

You can think what you like, but like I said there were several times in the past two weeks where I joined EU1 and over half the players were ranged builds, I didn't just "think" that, I saw it. I am not saying that this is happening all of the time, but I am saying it's happening more than it should and people aren't bothering to even come and look any more because they're tired of being shot from 4 different directions where "git a shield" doesn't make a difference.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Telford on March 02, 2018, 09:02:37 pm
The amount of ranged is just fucking daft. What the fuck is going on.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Grytviken on March 02, 2018, 10:55:33 pm
You can think what you like, but like I said there were several times in the past two weeks where I joined EU1 and over half the players were ranged builds, I didn't just "think" that, I saw it. I am not saying that this is happening all of the time, but I am saying it's happening more than it should and people aren't bothering to even come and look any more because they're tired of being shot from 4 different directions where "git a shield" doesn't make a difference.

It's just not fun getting 1 or 2 shotted by ranged and chasing kiting 27 agi xbowers around all game. Taking a break till this is fixed.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Hirlok on March 03, 2018, 02:04:47 am
me:

comes back to have a look at the forums after 2 years, nostalghia much.
Sees still the exact same whining going on.  :rolleyes:

ROFL

Good to see you old farts are still at it, guess I have to re-install and dust off that ancient longbow of mine...  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Yeldur on March 03, 2018, 03:20:20 am
me:

comes back to have a look at the forums after 2 years, nostalghia much.
Sees still the exact same whining going on.  :rolleyes:

ROFL

Good to see you old farts are still at it, guess I have to re-install and dust off that ancient longbow of mine...  :mrgreen:
no plz dont come back the last thing we need is yet another archer to infest and ruin c-rpg
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: DaveUKR on March 03, 2018, 10:16:40 am
Doubt I've ever seen above 40% ranged

I've played several games with 100% ranged on population with 20 or lower ppl. Was better than it sounds but still boring.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gnjus on March 03, 2018, 04:03:26 pm
me:

comes back to have a look at the forums after 2 years, nostalghia much.
Sees still the exact same whining going on.  :rolleyes:

ROFL

Good to see you old farts are still at it, guess I have to re-install and dust off that ancient longbow of mine...  :mrgreen:

We were hoping the jungle got you by now. Where's bloody scorpions, snakes & spiders when you need 'em.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: woody on March 03, 2018, 04:39:42 pm
People have a right to play ranged, others have the right not to play at all.

Have fun ranged guys in the 10 vs 10 not very good first person shooter game.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 03, 2018, 05:29:36 pm
I think its fair for ranged to play ranged, people crying about it then joining them are scum but fair enough fight fire with fire. It goes up and down, i think its generally around 50% ranged, but then its often stacked on one team more than not, which leads to the complaints. I dont think the issue is completely bound to ranged as a class, i think its bound to the gamemode simply not being that well made out for infantry currently.

 I made a post at http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/flag-changes-possible/ to kind of adapt the battle more to infantry style objective, which is the flags obviously, but they just arent fast enough right now which makes for a dull waiting time standing on them while getting picked off.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Yeldur on March 03, 2018, 05:41:24 pm
People have a right to play ranged, others have the right not to play at all.

Have fun ranged guys in the 10 vs 10 not very good first person shooter game.
top meme
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: mr_baby_head on March 03, 2018, 07:44:48 pm
I agree with Salad here, logging on to a server of 10 people with over half ranged isn't fun. Enjoy populating the server...
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Leshma on March 03, 2018, 07:51:52 pm
me:

comes back to have a look at the forums after 2 years, nostalghia much.
Sees still the exact same whining going on.  :rolleyes:

ROFL

Good to see you old farts are still at it, guess I have to re-install and dust off that ancient longbow of mine...  :mrgreen:

How's internet in those God forsaken woods of yours? Have ISPs from Paraguay started selling better wifi or 4g internet to households outside big cities?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Corsair831 on March 03, 2018, 08:02:07 pm
You can think what you like, but like I said there were several times in the past two weeks where I joined EU1 and over half the players were ranged builds, I didn't just "think" that, I saw it. I am not saying that this is happening all of the time, but I am saying it's happening more than it should and people aren't bothering to even come and look any more because they're tired of being shot from 4 different directions where "git a shield" doesn't make a difference.

Get a shield only makes a difference if you know how to use it
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Grytviken on March 03, 2018, 10:16:11 pm
Get a shield only makes a difference if you know how to use it

Shield is a good counter to Archers, but not to Xbow.

Archers have to sacrifice melee and movement to do ranged damage, which in the end still ends up to be less dmg than xbows.

Xbow can flank and kite you with 9 athletics, and still be proficient and deadly in melee while doing the highest range damage in the game. They can even wear heavy armor and 1 shot snipe you across the map. There are no drawbacks with this OP class.

We all know why Xbowers won't get nerfed because that's all the balancers play. If it wasn't OP people wouldn't be playing it as much as they do now, it's that simple.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Corsair831 on March 03, 2018, 11:55:51 pm
Shield is a good counter to Archers, but not to Xbow.

Archers have to sacrifice melee and movement to do ranged damage, which in the end still ends up to be less dmg than xbows.

Xbow can flank and kite you with 9 athletics, and still be proficient and deadly in melee while doing the highest range damage in the game. They can even wear heavy armor and 1 shot snipe you across the map. There are no drawbacks with this OP class.

We all know why Xbowers won't get nerfed because that's all the balancers play. If it wasn't OP people wouldn't be playing it as much as they do now, it's that simple.

Drawbacks are you can't be super effective with heavy armour (lowers WPF), and have to put a lot of WPF in to crossbow to be accurate
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Rando on March 04, 2018, 01:23:38 am
tl;dr - nerf archery and throwing, crossbow has been nerfed enough.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Grytviken on March 04, 2018, 01:38:57 am
tl;dr - nerf archery and throwing, crossbow has been nerfed enough.

I hardly see any throwers, it would be absolutely dumb to nerf them. Archery already has severe drawbacks of no mobility or melee capability. Xbow Damage is still way higher than any of them despite being able to kite and do very good melee damage. 2H cut has been nerfed and armor soak changed again so Xbow is still the highest damage, and has the least amount of drawbacks. It's stronger than old Agi Archers ever were .
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Rando on March 04, 2018, 03:22:53 am
I hardly see any throwers, it would be absolutely dumb to nerf them. Archery already has severe drawbacks of no mobility or melee capability. Xbow Damage is still way higher than any of them despite being able to kite and do very good melee damage. 2H cut has been nerfed and armor soak changed again so Xbow is still the highest damage, and has the least amount of drawbacks. It's stronger than old Agi Archers ever were .

Are you serious? Desire has personally tested throwing extensively, and found that throwing lances deal more damage than an arbalest. To say throwers have no mobility is ridiculous, as is saying they have no melee capability - the weapons have a secondary mode for melee which is totally viable. I'm shocked you would suggest that throwing has no mobility or melee capability, how is it possible to be this wrong?
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Leesin on March 04, 2018, 07:45:23 am
Get a shield only makes a difference if you know how to use it

And it doesn't matter how well you use it, if you're being shot at from more than one direction by any decent archer or xbow player ( yes not just some random nub who don't time their shots well ), they stand a good chance at hitting you. I mean honestly mate barely anyone is playing again now, the most I have seen is 20-30 which was last week and a ton of those were ranged, which just puts some people off as soon as they join the server and see that it's a ranged fest, I see people write it in chat and they just leave. Can I deal with it personally? yeah sure, I even play without a shield on my Horse and I get hard ons when I backstab ranged players, but when I look at EU1 and it's pretty much dead 24/7, I can't even be bothered to join knowing half or more of the few players are probably just playing medieval counter strike.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Tristan_of_Erzoth on March 04, 2018, 08:09:03 am
Xbows do more damage on a per shot basis, but archery can do more damage in a second. Most builds let you get ~3 shots off with a high str archery build which will end up outputing more damage than an arb. I don't have exact numbers off the top of my head but I could probably get them if I want, they are in one of the other thousand range rage thread. Dispell this retarded notion of "xbows do more damage than bows and throwing" because its only true if you refuse to look at the whole picture
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gurnisson on March 04, 2018, 10:07:23 am
He believes it's stronger than old agi archery. In other words, he's completely delusional.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Grytviken on March 04, 2018, 10:18:17 am
Xbows do more damage on a per shot basis, but archery can do more damage in a second. Most builds let you get ~3 shots off with a high str archery build which will end up outputing more damage than an arb. I don't have exact numbers off the top of my head but I could probably get them if I want, they are in one of the other thousand range rage thread. Dispell this retarded notion of "xbows do more damage than bows and throwing" because its only true if you refuse to look at the whole picture

That's what's being discussed, " the whole picture ". Archers can't kite, but a 15-27 Xbower can, Archers can't melee, but a 15-27 xbower can. Xbow does more damage and can kite people around. Those are all huge advantages in the whole picture. They can do the highest ranged damage and not have to sacrifice mobility, accuracy and melee like an Archer.

When people say get a shield, I'm saying you can't catch a 27 agility xbower because the shield weight slows you down.



Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Corsair831 on March 04, 2018, 01:36:10 pm
And it doesn't matter how well you use it, if you're being shot at from more than one direction by any decent archer or xbow player ( yes not just some random nub who don't time their shots well ), they stand a good chance at hitting you. I mean honestly mate barely anyone is playing again now, the most I have seen is 20-30 which was last week and a ton of those were ranged, which just puts some people off as soon as they join the server and see that it's a ranged fest, I see people write it in chat and they just leave. Can I deal with it personally? yeah sure, I even play without a shield on my Horse and I get hard ons when I backstab ranged players, but when I look at EU1 and it's pretty much dead 24/7, I can't even be bothered to join knowing half or more of the few players are probably just playing medieval counter strike.

Sounds like the main problem with the game is that the cRPG community doesn't like cRPG/is too stubborn to counter ranged and RQ instead

I get shot from 2 directions all the time, and i rarely die from ranged compared to deaths in melee. Missile travel time is so slow in cRPG that you can just look behind you and catch his arrow on your shield when he shoots
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Nightingale on March 04, 2018, 01:36:52 pm
Odd How many stf xbowmen are level 33-34?

Are you trying to suggest that my 3 ps 5 ath build with 9 wm at level 30 is 'op'... or are you suggesting an 8 ath 9 wm xbow build with 0 ps is capable of meleeing?

Or are you suggesting that a level 34 build shouldn't be effective at the class they have predominately spec'd into?

all of these possibilities baffle me. perhaps you mean 15-24.... but even then at level 30 this build isn't -that- impressive and by design its a glass cannon. it is not until higher levels that 15-27 becomes 'functional'

In all; you are over exaggerating as per usual to appeal to mass idiocy. Which is an equally baffling strategy that you get results with.

15-27 is a hilarious build for a level 30 to try to pull off outside of siege and strat battles. I would suggest next time to do a bit more research before whining.

on top of this xbow has already received hefty nerfs yet you are pretending because "balancers only play this class" which is a far cry. that no nerfs can happen. I suggest looking back and viewing all of the xbowmen's tears when they realized I nerfed the shit out of the class. Even your precious daveUKR suggested lowering the strength requirements to give xbowers back -something- after such heavy nerfs.
 Its insane to me that just after a short while people forget hefty nerfs.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Grytviken on March 04, 2018, 06:55:41 pm
Yes the STF will be sniper only, but it doesn't take much effort to get to lvl 31-32 or higher which is where these become way more versatile than just a sniper, which is the problem ( free respecs every week it isn't hard ). Now you don't just have a CS GO awper that does the highest range damage in the game, they can also kite and melee.

Maybe it was intended that the hybrids would utilize the smaller crossbows and not all use the AWPs ( heavy xbow and arb ) , but there's no reason not to since they will all turn into a competent melee hybrid that can also kite like the old agi archers with a little leveling.

How anyone can think Archers are OP is beyond me, they simply cannot kite or run away from shielders, or flank them at any speed. Sure they might do high damage ( still not as much damage as Arb), but that's ALL they can do. An Xbower doesnt need the protection of their team because they are the FASTEST foot soldiers in the game as it is, an Archer on the other hand is dead meat if their team abandons them or shielders target them.

What we have with this current balance is that CRPG feels more like Napoleonic Wars or CS GO while these easy to make hybrids dominate range and are good enough in melee to more than hold their own + kite.

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When you say you nerfed Xbows it's laughable. You nerfed ALL weapons by changing armor soak, XBOWS STILL DO THE MOST DAMAGE, the weapons that were weaker than xbow before do even less damage as well. Considering you can still 1-2 shot people with ARB i'd say nerfing all other weapons was just another buff to xbows and more reason to play them now than ever.

Nerfing the accuracy and then lowering the requirement really cancels out that accuracy nerf as well. I've been sniped across the entire map by DAVEUKR and killed by a headshot with 60 head armor and 24 str, i've never had a thrower do me like that  :lol:
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Leesin on March 04, 2018, 07:32:05 pm
Sounds like the main problem with the game is that the cRPG community doesn't like cRPG/is too stubborn to counter ranged and RQ instead

I get shot from 2 directions all the time, and i rarely die from ranged compared to deaths in melee. Missile travel time is so slow in cRPG that you can just look behind you and catch his arrow on your shield when he shoots

I'd say it was the fact that this is old news, CRPG is a pensioner in gaming terms, the mod doesn't have any of the charm it used to have, people have done this shit countless times before. They dealt with the ranged shit in the past because there were things that they liked. Now the same people join the server with 20 players on, 12+ are ranged, it's probably worse than it ever was, they just quit because no reason to deal with that shit any more. That's good for you mate but I see plenty of good shielders getting rekt by ranged, and people that only carry a shield for ranged defense ( 2h, polearm etc ) usually don't have enough shield skill to deal with being shot from multiple directions constantly, regardless.

I didn't respec away from HA for shits and giggles, I did it because I could see there was something really unhealthy about the amount of ranged on the server, too bad it didn't really make a difference because mod is already ded again.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Grytviken on March 04, 2018, 07:35:28 pm
Just add the muskets and guns at this point, it's better than some poor soul believing the  "just get a shield" meme and getting kited by horse archers and marathon runner arb players and rage quitting.

I actually go to napoleonic wars mod now if I want a good melee fight, I actually get killed by range less there and EVERYONE has a fucking gun.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Tristan_of_Erzoth on March 04, 2018, 08:02:18 pm
Just add the muskets and guns at this point, it's better than some poor soul believing the  "just get a shield" meme and getting kited by horse archers and marathon runner arb players and rage quitting.

I actually go to napoleonic wars mod now if I want a good melee fight, I actually get killed by range less there and EVERYONE has a fucking gun.

I havent seen you nor be an archer in like a year lol. And archers can definitely kite, ive seen you oyourself just turn around and run away from me and i cant do shit
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Nightingale on March 04, 2018, 08:14:42 pm
arbalest is not the most damaging weapon in the game. With 5 ps most mid to high tier melee weapons will out damage arbalest. High tier throwing out damages arbalest and 10 pd archers are just slightly less damaging. A 9 pd archer can also sport  5 wm 5 ath and go upwards of 9 ps with a side arm of their Choosing.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Grytviken on March 04, 2018, 08:34:09 pm
arbalest is not the most damaging weapon in the game. With 5 ps most mid to high tier melee weapons will out damage arbalest. High tier throwing out damages arbalest and 10 pd archers are just slightly less damaging. A 9 pd archer can also sport  5 wm 5 ath and go upwards of 9 ps with a side arm of their Choosing.

The Arb does more damage than a 30 strength 10 PD Archer, Throwing must be the problem. LOL


Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Asheram on March 04, 2018, 10:18:38 pm
I havent seen you nor be an archer in like a year lol. And archers can definitely kite, ive seen you oyourself just turn around and run away from me and i cant do shit
The last several times I have seen Salad_Fork on he was rocking a bow wearing short tunic that has 8 body armor 2 leg armor.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Nightingale on March 05, 2018, 07:16:56 am
Yeah he obviously should take 3 bolts.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Hirlok on March 07, 2018, 05:35:53 pm
How's internet in those God forsaken woods of yours? Have ISPs from Paraguay started selling better wifi or 4g internet to households outside big cities?

LOL, no Lesh. I still have my iconic epic ping. :) One of the reasons I am about to move to Uruguay, chilling at the coast for some time AND they got fucking optical fiber there. :D

We were hoping the jungle got you by now. Where's bloody scorpions, snakes & spiders when you need 'em.

Heya Gnjus you old salty piece of pork... good to see you have not changed at all.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: _Zetan_ on March 07, 2018, 06:49:26 pm
Hirlok !!!!, I am glad of your return. I hope to see you soon on the battlefield. PS, do you make custom Pipes ? Miserable Old Bastard
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: njames89 on March 07, 2018, 07:38:28 pm
Ayy long time no see Hirlok! Welcome back  :)
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Lord_Carlos on March 09, 2018, 11:27:38 am
Must go for Crossbowman :lol: :lol: :lol:

Welcome back Hirlok
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Gnjus on March 12, 2018, 12:31:19 pm
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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Yeldur on March 12, 2018, 01:08:48 pm
arbalest is not the most damaging weapon in the game. With 5 ps most mid to high tier melee weapons will out damage arbalest. High tier throwing out damages arbalest and 10 pd archers are just slightly less damaging. A 9 pd archer can also sport  5 wm 5 ath and go upwards of 9 ps with a side arm of their Choosing.

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Sorry but no. I've never been one hit with a melee weapon on a 36/3 10 IF account before whereas on the arbalest I have. Your comments about melee weapons SOMEHOW magically outdamaging the arbalest are completely and utterly wrong.

I doubted anything could 1 hit me as I've been hit in the head with basically everything until I got hit with an arbalest and instantly dropped.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: McKli_PL on March 12, 2018, 02:44:46 pm
Sorry but no. I've never been one hit with a melee weapon on a 36/3 10 IF account before whereas on the arbalest I have. Your comments about melee weapons SOMEHOW magically outdamaging the arbalest are completely and utterly wrong.

I doubted anything could 1 hit me as I've been hit in the head with basically everything until I got hit with an arbalest and instantly dropped.
lul reading a Yeldurs post with sense and truth, no bullshit, just pure picture how wrong things went in all this 'range' mess  :|
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Nightingale on March 12, 2018, 03:00:29 pm
Not wrong. Feel free to do your own tests. With a 36 str build with 12 ironflesh you shouldn't insta drop from a headshot unless ur not wearing a heavy helmet.

Headshot dmg is odd atm I am not considering it in my statement of "Not the most damaging weapon" I am only considering all other hit locations other than hit location 9 (head) which does have high dmg *on all projectiles*

As is for a body shot with an arbalest most melee weapons with 5 ps will out dmg the arbalest. This is a very true statement. However, I do see your point you are including headshots where I am not because I'd like to nerf headshot dmg.
Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Deus Immortalis on March 15, 2018, 05:07:36 pm
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(click to show/hide)

I have. It looks like this, but for some reason it doesn't work as intended
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Title: Re: There is nothing wrong with ranged.....
Post by: Osiris on March 15, 2018, 08:02:44 pm
unless you have good shield and shield skill you can just shoot over or under shields :P

The true issue is the Heavy xbow got a buff with its str reduction meaning you can be super agi spammer, run away faster than anyone else and have great ranged damage