cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tzar on December 27, 2013, 07:18:05 pm
Title: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Tzar on December 27, 2013, 07:18:05 pm
First of all i wanna say, that i really hate archers, its the only ranged class i hate cause of the amount of dmg and havoc they can wreck with bodkin arrows the amount of arrows they carry an their fast little bows.
BUT!!! I've settled with that, an accepted that for people who wont bother to learn or play melee should have a option to deal the same dmg.
People, srly.. have you forgotten how much op and retarded they used to be, when one single archer could outrun 7 inf players and shoot em to death solo :?:
My point is, range is fine as it is now, so stop complaining about range, just be thankful that they made archers unable to kite, that was the most retarded demotivating factor to play this mod ever :!:
So just try an adapt, an stick together an use shield walls.
Avoid charging a hill with a range stack.
Dont go out in the open, when outnumbered by range.
Let cav try an harrash the range blob before you charge.
In short, stop charging like retards, also try an dodge more. Nothing is more easy to land hits on, then a guy running in a straight line.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Molly on December 27, 2013, 07:28:32 pm
You drunk?
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Villain on December 27, 2013, 07:30:54 pm
First of all i wanna say, that i really hate archers, its the only ranged class i hate cause of the amount of dmg and havoc they can wreck with bodkin arrows the amount of arrows they carry an their fast little bows.
BUT!!! I've settled with that, an accepted that for people who wont bother to learn or play melee should have a option to deal the same dmg.
People, srly.. have you forgotten how much op and retarded they used to be, when one single archer could outrun 7 inf players and shoot em to death solo :?:
My point is, range is fine as it is now, so stop complaining about range, just be thankful that they made archers unable to kite, that was the most retarded demotivating factor to play this mod ever :!:
So just try an adapt, an stick together an use shield walls.
Avoid charging a hill with a range stack.
Dont go out in the open, when outnumbered by range.
Let cav try an harrash the range blob before you charge.
In short, stop charging like retards, also try an dodge more. Nothing is more easy to land hits on, then a guy running in a straight line.
I think your right in every point except one, BAN BODKINS! But yes adapt, get 1-3 shield skill with ur 2h weapon , or go shielder. So many things to counter it. Remember we gay mele, they gay range. Everyone's gay.
Giev looms plox
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Tzar on December 27, 2013, 07:33:45 pm
No, i just remembered how retarded archery where back when they could kite, an now we at least have a chance to fight back. So ive stopped an thought, how come people still wanna nerf ranged :?:
An ive noticed that, its only when the server becomes disorganized that inf blob gets ridiculed by ranged.
Also with the motf comming [Granted i know its not working right now, since spawn is bugged] I really dont think people will keep hating archery so much, so nerfing them wont do any good.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Miwiw on December 27, 2013, 07:34:35 pm
You're crying all day about archers, and now you see it different? Stop drinking boy.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Moncho on December 27, 2013, 07:39:23 pm
Who are you and what have you done with Tzar?
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Adamar on December 27, 2013, 08:09:55 pm
Some ranged hacked his account.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Tibe on December 27, 2013, 08:15:23 pm
Inform moderators. Someone clearly has Tzar's account and is making pro-archer posts.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Chris_the_Animal on December 27, 2013, 08:26:41 pm
Tzar is posting something constructive and you guys make jokes? Shame on you! :lol:
Im with you Tzar. Today EU 1 at 6pm gmt+1 we had the Fallen Archer Crew on the Server. About 50% of one team were these Archers. I know Fallens arent the best, but still they can play ranged decent. ;)
So there was the Melee Team and the Ranged Team and actually only the Melee side cried all map long while the Ranged kept firing at them while standing due to writing...In the end the ranged lost as many rounds as the Melees
--> the shit was balanced. Melees got into some teamwork and used their brains and they fucked the ranged team pretty good.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Tzar on December 27, 2013, 08:50:39 pm
Instead of asking for range nerfs, i dont understand why we dont try an ask for melee buff.
Part of the reason people go range is because of the restrictions thats been put on melee.
Biggest of em all are the turn rate nerfs. Which for the love of god, really killed lot of the fun for melee players.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Miwiw on December 27, 2013, 08:52:53 pm
Wasn't, really a buff, more a buff fun factor for the melee crowd. Dont see how it effects you :?:
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Adamar on December 27, 2013, 08:58:39 pm
It might. I had suggested making plate armor particularly good at glancing arrows, so that melee players could always pull that one in their inventories, if the map was heavy on ranged. Balancing through buffs is always better.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 27, 2013, 09:00:05 pm
It might. I had suggested making plate armor particularly good at glancing arrows, so that melee players could always pull that one in their inventories, if the map was heavy on ranged. Balancing through buffs is always better.
Plate armor makes the game a million times more boring.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Leshma on December 27, 2013, 10:41:34 pm
Damn you, Tzar. You found out about my secret plan you Byzmy old friend.
I've opened first nerf archery topic in months to test the waters. Luckily, people agreed with me. But whole point is to change the way players perceive archery. By acting like angry melee turd in nerf archery topics and presenting actual facts about archery in change (read: buff) archery threads I wanted to turn the tide and actually buff my desired hybrid archer and revert last few nerfs Paul did. But now my cover has been blown, by a member of Byzantium Kingdom.
I apologize for trying to manipulate the devs and for lobbying in general. It's Thomek's fault, he taught me this wizardry.
In other words, you can proceed with archery nerfs, I won't try to stop you.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Kalp on December 27, 2013, 10:46:57 pm
Nerf instastab.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: BlueKnight on December 27, 2013, 10:58:00 pm
Damn you, Tzar. You found out about my secret plan you Byzmy old friend.
I've opened first nerf archery topic in months to test the waters. Luckily, people agreed with me. But whole point is to change the way players perceive archery. By acting like angry melee turd in nerf archery topics and presenting actual facts about archery in change (read: buff) archery threads I wanted to turn the tide and actually buff my desired hybrid archer and revert last few nerfs Paul did. But now my cover has been blown, by a member of Byzantium Kingdom.
I apologize for trying to manipulate the devs and for lobbying in general. It's Thomek's fault, he taught me this wizardry.
In other words, you can proceed with archery nerfs, I won't try to stop you.
Hipster
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Kafein on December 28, 2013, 03:06:47 am
Short version : when you see ranged, run away, seek cover and hope they don't find you. It's someone else's problem, now. Also, try to zigzag instead of running in a straight line. You'll get shot anyway, but at least you tried.
In all seriousness, melee needs a serious buff. What is so bad with Native melee combat and dying after two hits ? It seems everybody has to die in 538456 melee attacks or two arrows in cRPG.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: bilwit on December 28, 2013, 03:33:48 am
In all seriousness, melee needs a serious buff. What is so bad with Native melee combat and dying after two hits ? It seems everybody has to die in 538456 melee attacks or two arrows in cRPG.
This. If melee was more lethal it wouldn't feel like you you only died to ranged and teambumps, along with making shit more overall fun.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: wanteds on December 28, 2013, 05:15:52 am
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Corsair831 on December 28, 2013, 01:56:40 pm
simple counter to ranged, shield and light armour
however ... entire cRPG community -
** ME DUN KNO HOW PLAY WITH LESS THUN 60 BUDY ARMUR! ARCHURS R TOO FAST! NERF THEM OMG! **
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: sF_Guardian on December 28, 2013, 02:02:45 pm
I hate a lot less on archers since I'm playin Pitch Fork peasantmy old friend with 15/24 build. I get oneshotted but if those bastards miss I'm on them very quick and nothing feels better than assraping those fuckers with a fork :)
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Grumbs on December 28, 2013, 02:38:52 pm
Shielder is only a defensive counter to ranged. Ranged can still deal damage to everyone else and shielders that aren't facing them. You shut your own offensive abilities down while "countering". When in range you are then melee vs melee which counter each other depending on player skill and some stats. As long as you can manual block you can shit on players in melee with just a bit of power strike, and with the agi ranged usually have. During this melee fight, anything can happen. You get to the point where you can't push any more, you have more ranged shooting at you, other melee get involved etc
So its false to say that shielder is a counter. Its a defensive counter. A real counter to ranged would be something that offensively deals damage to ranged without much risk of taking damage themselves, and they would be able to deal this damage without fulfilling many conditions first, similarly to how ranged deal damage without taking damage themselves
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Spleen on December 28, 2013, 03:28:17 pm
I actually have +3 bodkins, but I never use them since its much funnier to just aim at the general direction of the enemy without even slightly caring for individual arrow dmg. One of the 78 arrows will do the job eventually...
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Corsair831 on December 28, 2013, 03:47:57 pm
Shielder is only a defensive counter to ranged. Ranged can still deal damage to everyone else and shielders that aren't facing them. You shut your own offensive abilities down while "countering". When in range you are then melee vs melee which counter each other depending on player skill and some stats. As long as you can manual block you can shit on players in melee with just a bit of power strike, and with the agi ranged usually have. During this melee fight, anything can happen. You get to the point where you can't push any more, you have more ranged shooting at you, other melee get involved etc
So its false to say that shielder is a counter. Its a defensive counter. A real counter to ranged would be something that offensively deals damage to ranged without much risk of taking damage themselves, and they would be able to deal this damage without fulfilling many conditions first, similarly to how ranged deal damage without taking damage themselves
this is the thing a lot of crpg guys don't understand, ranged in native is very well balanced; every single infantryman can get a shield (as you say defensive), and throwing weapons, which are just not anywhere near as viable in crpg as they are in native.
if you want throwing with a shield in crpg you have to sacrifice ~~ 5+ power throw & ~~ 3 points in weapon master, as well as acquiring +3 throwing weapons, which is a huge sacrifice for having a very small chance of killing a player, compared to what an extra 2 ath or 2 powerstrike instead of the throwing would give you
IMO remove power throw, make it completely dependent on throwing WPF.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Miwiw on December 28, 2013, 03:54:51 pm
So agi whores will also be able to throw?.... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Ronin on December 28, 2013, 04:00:10 pm
Shielder is only a defensive counter to ranged. Ranged can still deal damage to everyone else and shielders that aren't facing them. You shut your own offensive abilities down while "countering". When in range you are then melee vs melee which counter each other depending on player skill and some stats. As long as you can manual block you can shit on players in melee with just a bit of power strike, and with the agi ranged usually have. During this melee fight, anything can happen. You get to the point where you can't push any more, you have more ranged shooting at you, other melee get involved etc
So its false to say that shielder is a counter. Its a defensive counter. A real counter to ranged would be something that offensively deals damage to ranged without much risk of taking damage themselves, and they would be able to deal this damage without fulfilling many conditions first, similarly to how ranged deal damage without taking damage themselves
What you describe sounds like shield+throwers actually, and I find them a bit UP in cRPG. I'm not even taking the ridiculous upkeep on them, into account.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Rumblood on December 28, 2013, 04:01:59 pm
This. If melee was more lethal it wouldn't feel like you you only died to ranged and teambumps, along with making shit more overall fun.
No. Melee needs more survivability vs ranged. They are already plenty lethal vs ranged when in range and melee already complains about how long it takes to kill each other with the skill level in blocking and the weapon speed and lack of turn speed. It should take bodkins as long to kill as it takes the cut arrows to kill now, and the cut arrows could take up to 50% more. Oh, and fuck xbows with no wpf investment, they need a serious rebalance against everything else in the mod.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Grumbs on December 28, 2013, 04:54:38 pm
this is the thing a lot of crpg guys don't understand, ranged in native is very well balanced; every single infantryman can get a shield (as you say defensive), and throwing weapons, which are just not anywhere near as viable in crpg as they are in native.
if you want throwing with a shield in crpg you have to sacrifice ~~ 5+ power throw & ~~ 3 points in weapon master, as well as acquiring +3 throwing weapons, which is a huge sacrifice for having a very small chance of killing a player, compared to what an extra 2 ath or 2 powerstrike instead of the throwing would give you
IMO remove power throw, make it completely dependent on throwing WPF.
Countering ranged with ranged is a poor solution imo. Ranged works against every class in the game without fulfilling much prior conditions such as maneuvering into range, and when they are in short range with someone they have the single best ability in the game->manual block. That with strong melee weapons, agi and some PS makes them too variable. Making ranged good in melee is one of the worst balance tweaks the devs have done. They should be good at ranged and melee should be good at melee, not hybrid ranged and melee
They buffed 1 handers too much. They made 0 slot weapons too good. They increased the armour limit before WPF is affected, increases 1 hander weight so they get less stun without shield, they buffed 1 hand stab too much. They increased the damage on lots of 1 handers. 1 handers with knockdown proc too often
I wouldn't mind having true ranged counters that don't involve having more projectiles flying around. Like have a class of cav player that is strong against ranged but not too strong against regular infantry. So bump damage is increased for eg against low armour, and make it so ranged need to use low armour
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Arthur_ on December 28, 2013, 05:33:39 pm
Ranged got a problem on EU1 becouse melee is just fucking retarded. People just dont realise that if we would leave ranged to die all the time, leaving them protectless in the field, that would slowly make them dissapear. But no 2h tryhard need to be fucking scums and kill everything with ranged behind.
like here http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/all-melee-players-should-show-understanding-to-each-other/
So I did that and what happened, got banned for a hour...
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Grumbs on December 28, 2013, 05:59:09 pm
I'm not going to make my team lose just to spite ranged. The devs need to balance and offer reasons not to be ranged
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Leshma on December 28, 2013, 06:12:58 pm
No. Melee needs more survivability vs ranged. They are already plenty lethal vs ranged when in range and melee already complains about how long it takes to kill each other with the skill level in blocking and the weapon speed and lack of turn speed. It should take bodkins as long to kill as it takes the cut arrows to kill now, and the cut arrows could take up to 50% more. Oh, and fuck xbows with no wpf investment, they need a serious rebalance against everything else in the mod.
As someone who used Horn Bow and Arrows, I must agree. It takes quite a few shots to kill armored melee, unless you aim for the head. But I believe that's fine. In return, archers should get their speed back and increased melee ability.
But xbow will remain an issue. Arbalest is too potent and too easy to use.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Tzar on December 28, 2013, 06:17:50 pm
Countering ranged with ranged is a poor solution imo. Ranged works against every class in the game without fulfilling much prior conditions such as maneuvering into range, and when they are in short range with someone they have the single best ability in the game->manual block. That with strong melee weapons, agi and some PS makes them too variable. Making ranged good in melee is one of the worst balance tweaks the devs have done. They should be good at ranged and melee should be good at melee, not hybrid ranged and melee
They buffed 1 handers too much. They made 0 slot weapons too good. They increased the armour limit before WPF is affected, increases 1 hander weight so they get less stun without shield, they buffed 1 hand stab too much. They increased the damage on lots of 1 handers. 1 handers with knockdown proc too often
I wouldn't mind having true ranged counters that don't involve having more projectiles flying around. Like have a class of cav player that is strong against ranged but not too strong against regular infantry. So bump damage is increased for eg against low armour, and make it so ranged need to use low armour
lol, i have like no problems at all with ranged on my build
if you have even a little native experience you realise rather quickly that the ranged on crpg is just so weak
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Osiris on December 28, 2013, 07:17:20 pm
I'm not so sure :P crpg archers do the same amount of damage % wise to native ones even when im wearing heavy armour :P add that to the fact that people don't want to play native and would like to play 2h or polearm without shield sometimes then you can understand the whine :P
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Arthur_ on December 28, 2013, 07:43:25 pm
lol, i have like no problems at all with ranged on my build
if you have even a little native experience you realise rather quickly that the ranged on crpg is just so weak
them agiwhores
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on December 28, 2013, 07:52:15 pm
I've never understood why there is so much hate towards archers, but little towards the more easier class of crossbow? Possibly an NA/EU difference in ranged makeup?
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Corsair831 on December 28, 2013, 08:04:34 pm
I've never understood why there is so much hate towards archers, but little towards the more easier class of crossbow? Possibly an NA/EU difference in ranged makeup?
ranged makeup? they wear lipstick in NA?
(click to show/hide)
(hue hue)
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: bilwit on December 28, 2013, 08:07:41 pm
I've never understood why there is so much hate towards archers, but little towards the more easier class of crossbow? Possibly an NA/EU difference in ranged makeup?
I hate all ranged classes equally. I play this game for its rich melee combat, not to endlessly kite from multiple people launching shit at me from far away. I've learned to just quit the server when there's too many ranged on. Just the other day I joined at the end of a round and the last guy was kiting 6 archers and it was just like, welp time to rejoin some other time.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Pinche on December 28, 2013, 08:59:46 pm
I hate all ranged classes equally. I play this game for its rich melee combat, not to endlessly kite from multiple people launching shit at me from far away. I've learned to just quit the server when there's too many ranged on. Just the other day I joined at the end of a round and the last guy was kiting 6 archers and it was just like, welp time to rejoin some other time.
For rich melee combat, go duel.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Rebelyell on December 28, 2013, 11:52:59 pm
some of that "elite" duelers are just boring backpedeling cunts that just block, atack, block, atack block, atack block, atack block, atack block, atack block, atack block, atack block, atack block, atack block, atack block, atack block, and there is no way around that. if you drop on that some macro( "I have fast mouse lol bitch") knockdown and kick(that deserve own WTF topic) duel is frustrating, boring and gay as fuck.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: TR_Ragnarok on December 29, 2013, 01:58:55 am
I think throwing should be a more of a concern than archery imo. Sorry xeen, chucky, and of course artie.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Mokou on December 29, 2013, 02:07:29 am
I've never understood why there is so much hate towards archers, but little towards the more easier class of crossbow? Possibly an NA/EU difference in ranged makeup?
I'd say it's because a lot of crossbow users are either A) Hybrid, who go into melee or B) Stupidly good at what they do, like Conqueef and Phantasmal. Whereas a LOT of the archers (at least on NA) are pretty awful, and can't melee, and it's pretty frustrating to get picked off from afar by someone a lot worse than you with no chance to fight back, simply because they got lucky, or you moved the wrong way and walked into the arrow, or they carry so many arrows that being hit is just an inevitability.
It's basically the difference between being beat in, say, Halo, by a professional player who just guns you down with normal weapons, and being killed by a ten year old using a sniper rifle on the other side of the map, who took ten shots to kill you because he's not very good at the game.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: TR_Ragnarok on December 29, 2013, 02:30:15 am
I'd say it's because a lot of crossbow users are either A) Hybrid, who go into melee or B) Stupidly good at what they do, like Conqueef and Phantasmal. Whereas a LOT of the archers (at least on NA) are pretty awful, and can't melee, and it's pretty frustrating to get picked off from afar by someone a lot worse than you with no chance to fight back, simply because they got lucky, or you moved the wrong way and walked into the arrow, or they carry so many arrows that being hit is just an inevitability.
Which is why we cant just nerf something, just because a group of people are bending us over us every round.
I'm sure the balancers know what they are doing despite the backlash from the community.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: kinngrimm on December 29, 2013, 02:50:43 am
First of all i wanna say, that i really hate archers, its the only ranged class i hate cause of the amount of dmg and havoc they can wreck with bodkin arrows the amount of arrows they carry an their fast little bows.
... blabla doesnt matter bla ...
Re: Time to end the range whine.
fuck that shit, no deal.
Fucking kiting prick today on eu1 , made me and 2 others follow him for 2 minutes. I have 10 ath, that dude droped all his shit and just trolled us by running away.
Guess what, in the end a gank group came over us, and while sorrounded by 5 enemy melee i got shot ... which is the usual way to die on eu1.(there are endless similar stories, thats why i stopped playing on eu1 in general a while ago)
new rules "whenever i get shot by friendly ranged, crtl+M" and Panos rule also will come into effect "no support for friendly ranged you fucks are on your own now" Perhaps i can grieve these fucking cunts out of the game as they do nothing less, is this what the devs wanted , so be it.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Leshma on December 29, 2013, 03:51:03 am
It's funny how many times when surrounded by enemies, you get killed by ranged. Happened to me a lot.
These days I'm my old friendchering and despite being an awful shooter (only managed to headshot kinngrimm, which was result of pure luck and nothing else) somehow, every time I choose to be a prick and shoot in melee, I always kill that poor bastard surrounded by friendly players.
Feeling every single nerf on my skin, mostly useless nerfs. You can't nerf archery. I got killed many, many times today. Yet, I've kept playing for that special moment when Lady Luck will look down on me and grant me that sweet headshot on extraordinary dangerous enemy such as kinngrimm or some elite macro twohander, or even enemy bastard archer who can't miss. Playing low level archery in cRPG takes skill and survival instinct and that's what makes it fun for some people.
Also point system is the biggest joke ever. Killed four guys with bow, got like 15 points... then went into melee with a club, 0 ps and 1 wpf. Finished with 20 points from melee only. After I picked up something decent and masterworked I scored some kills as melee (with 0 PS), and obtained more points than I would ever as an archer.
Even picking any type of crossbow grants me more kills than shooting with a bow. That's because bolts are much faster, more damaging and fly straight unlike arrows...
Again, you can't nerf archery. You can only remove bows.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: San on December 29, 2013, 05:57:09 am
I'd say it's because a lot of crossbow users are either A) Hybrid, who go into melee or B) Stupidly good at what they do, like Conqueef and Phantasmal. Whereas a LOT of the archers (at least on NA) are pretty awful, and can't melee, and it's pretty frustrating to get picked off from afar by someone a lot worse than you with no chance to fight back, simply because they got lucky, or you moved the wrong way and walked into the arrow, or they carry so many arrows that being hit is just an inevitability.
It's basically the difference between being beat in, say, Halo, by a professional player who just guns you down with normal weapons, and being killed by a ten year old using a sniper rifle on the other side of the map, who took ten shots to kill you because he's not very good at the game.
All of the struggling archers find themselves doing better with xbow, and there are just more awesome and good-great xbowers around. And that's without a lot of the old Chaos/Remnant/Silveredge old xbow players that are barely on/not playing.
For archers, NA doesn't have much great outside of Vick, Robin_Longstride, Flying_Dildos, Ivana, Les, and.. uh... there was another 1 or 2 but I forget, that's how bad it is (then there's the occasional all-around great player that decides to try out archery for a while, a lot of the SS/Jabonra guys). Some of those guys aren't even on that often, so you never have to deal with much more than 1 or 2 great archers on NA at a time, but getting arbed at any point is still incredibly dangerous.
Tons of great old Hospitaller, BRD, and Fallen archers either don't play archery anymore or just simply don't play.
As a shielder, archers are the easiest to deal with, especially if there are teammates alive to split some of the focus away.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Rumblood on December 29, 2013, 06:29:51 am
Fucking kiting prick today on eu1 , made me and 2 others follow him for 2 minutes. I have 10 ath, that dude droped all his shit and just trolled us by running away.
Guess what, in the end a gank group came over us, and while sorrounded by 5 enemy melee i got shot ... which is the usual way to die on eu1.(there are endless similar stories, thats why i stopped playing on eu1 in general a while ago)
new rules "whenever i get shot by friendly ranged, crtl+M" and Panos rule also will come into effect "no support for friendly ranged you fucks are on your own now" Perhaps i can grieve these fucking cunts out of the game as they do nothing less, is this what the devs wanted , so be it.
An archer kited you for two minutes and now you won't support your team archer? Well you weren't supporting them in the first place or that archer would have been dead and not kiting you around. So nothing changing is it?
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: UnholyRolyPoly on December 29, 2013, 07:33:13 am
I've never understood why there is so much hate towards archers, but little towards the more easier class of crossbow? Possibly an NA/EU difference in ranged makeup?
IMO it's a tactical difference between the two servers. Na is all about two epic blobs of inf charging each other. There isn't as much time for archers to pepper the infantry because there is only a momentary conflict. The clash generally happens dead center of the map so there isn't (as) often a terrain advantage from a ranged perspective. The winner of the field battle mops up range. (Coincidentally it's also why you have more throwers on NA than EU. Throwers break up the infantry formation.) Because of the nature of each server from a tactical/terrain perspective NA archers might get off 1/2 the number of arrows as their EU counterparts. I wouldn't even be surprised if that number was 1/3 on average. That's why very few NA archers have developed into top end ranged players. Archery is simply not as effective on NA1 because the inf is far more cohesive. Obviously there are maps which favor ranged, cav, or inf on both servers. But because the infantry of the winning army is generally in a tighter formation (thus allowing them to beat the enemy inf) they tend to roll the remaining archers quite easily. I know shooting into a blob Seems like easy pickings for archers but agi shielders tend to wind up at the front of that blob and totally negate any ranged opportunities to kill the remaining infantry. Therefore archers on NA1 tend to spread out and camp a bit more than EU1. They do not generally work together. It's VERY rare to see a group of three archers actually working together on NA1 but it's nothing to see a group of 5-7 on EU1 actually firing in formation thus increasing their effectiveness. I think it's simply a different mindset between the two regions. NA players are always looking for a direct fight. We always want to be in the battle line. EU players tend to flank and pull more often. It's not to say there is no battle line in EU or than NA players do not flank. This is just a general difference which holds true more often than not.
BTW... I often find myself frustrated on EU1.... not because of the archers.... but because I cannot get my team to work together to overcome the archers.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Prpavi on December 29, 2013, 11:35:38 am
Fucking kiting prick today on eu1 , made me and 2 others follow him for 2 minutes. I have 10 ath, that dude droped all his shit and just trolled us by running away.
Guess what, in the end a gank group came over us, and while sorrounded by 5 enemy melee i got shot ... which is the usual way to die on eu1.(there are endless similar stories, thats why i stopped playing on eu1 in general a while ago)
new rules "whenever i get shot by friendly ranged, crtl+M" and Panos rule also will come into effect "no support for friendly ranged you fucks are on your own now" Perhaps i can grieve these fucking cunts out of the game as they do nothing less, is this what the devs wanted , so be it.
I actually stuck around my own archers yesterday (imagine that! :shock:) and helped them on my shileder alt with a warspear for the horses and we won. Massa even called me a traitor to melee :mrgreen:
You keep griefing your archers and I'll keep helping them, we'll see who will end up winning rounds. gg
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Dionysus on December 29, 2013, 12:00:55 pm
Every time this debate arises, we are almost always discussing Battle. I no longer think it is an issue of class/build, but with the game mode itself. Battle's "fight-to-the-death" style will undoubtedly cause frustrations when players are defeated by ranged. I still wholeheartedly believe that ranged should be an auxiliary, and I believe the best way to do this would be to refine this current MotF glitch to an actual aspect of Battle. Here is what I've noticed:
1. The team sticks together. Melee stand side by side and ranged take up positions behind. 2. Due to the dense formation and chaos of each fight, ranged are almost always in danger; they have to stay close to the fight in order to be a contributing factor to the fight. 3. Ranged are less effective at killing, but are much more effective at wounding. I would say the biggest exception would be throwers, but they're endanger themselves constantly.
Now, this is only my opinion from all my experiences. I would love to hear what you folks have to say.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Paul on December 29, 2013, 01:06:50 pm
So someone "kites" a group with dropping his stuff on the ground and running away, yet noone suggests adding a "destroy equipment on ground" mechanic.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 29, 2013, 01:13:25 pm
So someone "kites" a group with dropping his stuff on the ground and running away, yet noone suggests adding a "destroy equipment on ground" mechanic.
Actually a fairly decentish idea if done properly, as in, requiring the guy destroying the gear to aim his view at it and stand still uninterrupted for an amount of time.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: 722_ on December 29, 2013, 01:46:46 pm
So someone "kites" a group with dropping his stuff on the ground and running away, yet noone suggests adding a "destroy equipment on ground" mechanic.
Not if it gets instantly destroyed, I always drop my arrows when having to fight someone in melee, having to carry an extra 20 weight from arrows slows you down alot and allows some people to run circles around you
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Leshma on December 29, 2013, 01:58:38 pm
Main problem with EU archers is abuse. For example, I like to hold my bow ready but whenever I want to jump on some roof, I find out I can't do that (need to release bow first, which is something I often forgot to do). All because archers in the past abused jump-shoot mechanic.
Next is arrow weight issue. As an archer I always pull out melee weapon, because that's something I'm used to. Even tho I have piss poor footwork and zero PS. I need that speed to successfully fight with melee weapon, not to run away from danger kiting. But no, I can't do that because assholes abused that for years.
Archery is in pretty sad shape atm. It's optimized for shooting and nothing else really. In a way, archers are forced to go full wpf in archery because everything else doesn't make much sense. Having 100 or more wpf in 1H is useless when I weight more than a bloody tincan, while having only a portion of its survivability.
Of course, to fix things Paul suggested another dumb mechanics implementation. Not saying I'm surprised.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: karasu on December 29, 2013, 02:03:00 pm
Not if it gets instantly destroyed, I always drop my arrows when having to fight someone in melee, having to carry an extra 20 weight from arrows slows you down alot and allows some people to run circles around you
Destroying something that makes me pay in the end of the round almost 2k total.... Nope.
There will always be ranged players. Always. And like op says (sigh..) compared to what we had in the past (plated railgun bows/xbows, infinikite, flamberge archers, 1 hit wonders, etc) this is quite a great place we're at.
Adapt, use the surroundings, evolve. Look at players like chase, saxon, etc, they keep adapting and have a perfect sense of placement. It's the best tool when playing battle.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 29, 2013, 02:08:44 pm
Destroying something that makes me pay in the end of the round almost 2k total.... Nope.
There will always be ranged players. Always. And like op says (sigh..) compared to what we had in the past (plated railgun bows/xbows, infinikite, flamberge archers, 1 hit wonders, etc) this is quite a great place we're at.
Adapt, use the surroundings, evolve. Look at players like chase, saxon, etc, they keep adapting and have a perfect sense of placement. It's the best tool when playing battle.
This could just be due to the time I play, but does Chase even play anymore? Don't think I've seen him in months.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Miwiw on December 29, 2013, 02:09:13 pm
Saw him this month. He and Saxon ended up in duels for some rounds. :lol:
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: TR_Ragnarok on December 29, 2013, 02:26:31 pm
They could make it so that you can throw your equipment in a fit of rage.. *kited by Range* *Throws Flamberge*
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Kafein on December 29, 2013, 02:43:42 pm
** ME DUN KNO HOW PLAY WITH LESS THUN 60 BUDY ARMUR! ARCHURS R TOO FAST! NERF THEM OMG! **
You know what the fun thing is ? When as a light shielder you inevitably get oneshot by an archer, people argue that you should have more armor.
I have during the last few days tried to play 100% ranged counter on EU2. I grabbed a shield and avoided melee combat completely. My observations are that if the enemy melee cooperate a little bit (i.e. don't chase me across the map because they are idiots), I can kill ranged as long as they remain mostly alone. As soon as there are multiple ranged far enough from each other so that it is not feasible to engage both in melee simultaneously, they become impossible to kill. That's with a shield. I don't remember archers having any problem with multiple 2h heroes.
I also during that time had the joy of observing (once again, as I used shields in the past but gave up on them to preserve my sanity) that shields can randomly fail to block arrows on the sides, even when the shield model was on the trajectory of the arrow. I'd estimate the zone in wich I can block arrows with a knightly heather shield to be about 25 degrees wide. Also, shooting the feet works from any horizontal angle, and shooting the head works if you are above me. In the context of siege, archers basically lack a limit of effective range. That is, you can accurately shoot from one end of the largest castle to the other with no big trouble. This is of course entirely irrelevant to xbows.
As a naked 1h, fighting with archers and xbowers using 1h sidearms basically comes down to skill. I move faster than they do, but I need to block all their attacks and I have to hit them three times to kill them when they usually only need one. At the kind of range I get to just before engaging, their ranged weapons always oneshot me. If I personally decided to respec as xbow, it would have almost no impact on my melee capability. I'm already frequently winning 1v3 in melee naked with a side sword, so I can only imagine what better players than me can do with their skills applied to a ranged hybrid. I should test it with STF, but I'm pretty sure I would have no problem defending myself with a 1h sidearm, 6PS and 1wpf in 1h.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Corsair831 on December 29, 2013, 03:16:42 pm
i'm sorry but all this crying about ranged, you guys are just bad
for reals, go play native (IG_Battlegrounds) for like 20 hours or so
you'll come back with a new attitude to ranged :)
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Kafein on December 29, 2013, 03:21:12 pm
"I don't want to listen, therefore I shall argue you are all bad"
Why are you even posting then?
it's just like, after playing native, where archers are accepted as "ok they're fine", then you come to crpg where they're just weak as toffee, and the one which has more rage against archers is the one where they're a lot weaker
it just boggles the mind
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Rumblood on December 29, 2013, 03:53:32 pm
Main problem with EU archers is abuse. For example, I like to hold my bow ready but whenever I want to jump on some roof, I find out I can't do that (need to release bow first, which is something I often forgot to do). All because archers in the past abused jump-shoot mechanic.
Next is arrow weight issue. As an archer I always pull out melee weapon, because that's something I'm used to. Even tho I have piss poor footwork and zero PS. I need that speed to successfully fight with melee weapon, not to run away from danger kiting. But no, I can't do that because assholes abused that for years.
Archery is in pretty sad shape atm. It's optimized for shooting and nothing else really. In a way, archers are forced to go full wpf in archery because everything else doesn't make much sense. Having 100 or more wpf in 1H is useless when I weight more than a bloody tincan, while having only a portion of its survivability.
Of course, to fix things Paul suggested another dumb mechanics implementation. Not saying I'm surprised.
Perfectly plusable post, then you go and insult Paul again. Get the fuck over yourself man. Are you doing anything for the mod? Stick to the mechanics and shut the fuck up with the insults to one of the few people who are still working to improve the mod, even if you disagree with the changes made. :evil:
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Paul on December 29, 2013, 04:21:16 pm
He is ill. Just try to ignore it for now and hope that he decides to get professional help at some point.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Moncho on December 29, 2013, 04:24:32 pm
Main problem with EU archers is abuse. For example, I like to hold my bow ready but whenever I want to jump on some roof, I find out I can't do that (need to release bow first, which is something I often forgot to do). All because archers in the past abused jump-shoot mechanic.
Next is arrow weight issue. As an archer I always pull out melee weapon, because that's something I'm used to. Even tho I have piss poor footwork and zero PS. I need that speed to successfully fight with melee weapon, not to run away from danger kiting. But no, I can't do that because assholes abused that for years.
Archery is in pretty sad shape atm. It's optimized for shooting and nothing else really. In a way, archers are forced to go full wpf in archery because everything else doesn't make much sense. Having 100 or more wpf in 1H is useless when I weight more than a bloody tincan, while having only a portion of its survivability.
Of course, to fix things Paul suggested another dumb mechanics implementation. Not saying I'm surprised.
Good post (except for the last line personal attack, which crossed out as I do not agree with it), this is exactly what killed my archer/shielder main. I enjoyed it, I was not as fast or as accurate as a pure build, but it was fun. Then at some point I had to endure 10kg from arrows, 4 from bow, 7.5 from shield, armour, etc and it was just unplayable like that in melee, I was forced to drop my bow and ended up not using it at all, and from there to completely dropping it was a no brainer...
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Leshma on December 29, 2013, 04:32:45 pm
Perfectly plusable post, then you go and insult Paul again. Get the fuck over yourself man. Are you doing anything for the mod? Stick to the mechanics and shut the fuck up with the insults to one of the few people who are still working to improve the mod, even if you disagree with the changes made. :evil:
I don't want improvements. I'm perfectly satisfied with current cRPG mechanics. To be honest, I'm playing cRPG just to be in touch with this community before Melee alpha comes out. Paul's work on cRPG means nothing to me.
Since chadz announced Melee being in development, this mod just serves one purpose. To keep these people busy until better version comes out.
Edit: Another thing. For few months I play as scavenger or in other words, I pick up gear from the ground. Paul's implementation would destroy that, no wonder I'm against it lol
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: kinngrimm on December 29, 2013, 04:38:25 pm
it's just like, after playing native, where archers are accepted as "ok they're fine", then you come to crpg where they're just weak as toffee, and the one which has more rage against archers is the one where they're a lot weaker
it just boggles the mind
what also is mindboggling, is to make this comparison in the first place.
Why compare with something we dont want? How is it making your argument valid, that you compare an imbalance within this mod with an imbalance in nativ? Apples and Oranges a lot? FFS, i cant even see an argument of yours other then a blunt try to discredit the arguments of another and rectify it afterwards.
Corsair i had seen you brilliantly making points on several topics, this here is not the way you do it normally.
------------------------- Anyways, for me the best thought and creational process would be, imagine the best possible reality, then try to find a way to it.
We may agree or disagree on some points, but anyone who was in the past 2 months regularly on eu1, just knows we have a ranged investation "at times". That then leads to players joining eu2. Eu2 is but for other reasons for many not that much enjoyable as eu1 is ... so they stop playing alltogether. Thats the reality atm, deal with it.
... Since chadz announced Melee being in development, this mod just serves one purpose. To keep these people busy until better version comes out.
depends on your perspective, so sad but true 'also', still perhaps at some point , development of cRPG complettly would be handed over to other programmers, may it be Paul or others, doesnt matter who aslong it would go on. It has not to be only end all start new, both could coexist, and cRPG could also be adapted for M&B2, how unlikely that may seem to you now.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Dalhi on December 29, 2013, 04:47:04 pm
Why compare with something we dont want? How is it making your argument valid, that you compare an imbalance within this mod with an imbalance in nativ?
Got to agree with kinngrimm on that, fact that TW fucked it up in Native doesn't mean that it's any good. If you like it or not, crpg is a different game.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Panos_ on December 29, 2013, 05:15:00 pm
it's just like, after playing native, where archers are accepted as "ok they're fine", then you come to crpg where they're just weak as toffee, and the one which has more rage against archers is the one where they're a lot weaker
it just boggles the mind
A player who cant block more than 2 hits in a row without his shield, that always whines about the kicks, oh I almost forgot the uber 1h spam and the agi whoring, is calling other players bad, haha I fucking love guys like you :lol:
Drop your shield, try playing a normal build, and then see if you`re gonna whine aswell or not.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Rumblood on December 29, 2013, 05:46:44 pm
As long as melee aren't playing as a team and protecting their archers, I can kill them using a shield. Unless there are more than 1 ranged working together, then I find it impossible to solo them. Why can't I solo multiple players at once?
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Leshma on December 29, 2013, 05:49:11 pm
depends on your perspective, so sad but true 'also', still perhaps at some point , development of cRPG complettly would be handed over to other programmers, may it be Paul or others, doesnt matter who aslong it would go on. It has not to be only end all start new, both could coexist, and cRPG could also be adapted for M&B2, how unlikely that may seem to you now.
Exactly (bolded part). I don't have desire to play this mod the moment Melee comes out (unless first alpha ends up being more broken than first versions of CRPG). Melee is the only thing that really interest me. Since I came back only somewhat competitive stuff I've done was Strategus mercing. On public servers I have no desire to compete, that's why mostly running with rags or now playing lolarcher and stuff like that. Me being competitive in cRPG ended the moment I retired my lucky gen number 13 main. Came back because I find other games beyond boring and because I like combat mechanics.
Futher development of this mod is none of my concern. Also have no desire to ever again play the game developed by Talewords or mods for it. Besides them selling the same game over and over again, they also never took the time or effort to fix many annoying bugs this engine has. Yes, whole idea is brilliant and implementation is still unique on the market but I think it's time that more competent people improve this concept.
I also understand why you wish this mod to live. But that's business of yours, not mine. I don't have to automatically like Paul just because he's working on this mod. Not after many insults he threw at me, concealed as examples of finest german humour... Everyone who I ever offended or did harm has the right to dislike me, but same goes in my case.
***
On topic: people pissed at archers mainly because of stun. Fix the stun and most of the hate will disappear.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 29, 2013, 06:02:26 pm
Yeah, I mean ground and horseranged sure as fuck can, it's not like I'm supposed to be somewhat of a counter to archers or anything. I hate xbows as much as the next guy, but as long as their tag isn't SB Xbowies all have to change to melee if an xbow nest is invaded, archers can keep running and shooting while one archer gets caught. Tzar is right in that a lot of heavily outspoken archer haters consider kiting the biggest issue, and it is true that the weight nerf did a lot to nerf kiting, but quite frankly, as long as you don't have to stand still whilst drawing your bow kiting will be an issuel. Only thing I really want nerfed with ranged atm is facehug shooting, and twice as bad, the ability to shoot through a shield at close ranges with all ranged weapons besides maybe trowing (the animation doesn't seem to make it possible, and I've never tested it) without getting my old friendcherstun.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Berserkadin on December 29, 2013, 06:36:22 pm
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Sniger on December 30, 2013, 12:32:29 am
its the amount of each class/highlevels on the same team that makes them OP. not the character sheet. cut to the chase, summa summarum:
banner balance or no banner balance.
banner balance is the reason why teams is devided like they are currently. you can nerf and buff and what not but you will still end up with the same unbalanced garbage.
tinkering with balance is like time-traveling - the more you travel, the more you fuck up :P
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Elio on December 31, 2013, 05:03:16 am
Eu1 these days... :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Kafein on December 31, 2013, 05:28:45 am
As long as melee aren't playing as a team and protecting their archers, I can kill them using a shield. Unless there are more than 1 ranged working together, then I find it impossible to solo them. Why can't I solo multiple players at once?
First, I can not kill "them", I can kill one.
Second, I probably spend a good 10 seconds average chasing and fighting and probably get myself killed shortly after killing one, or before, as even if melee don't actively defend ranged they are often in the way and can be a bitch to disengage if they really want me dead.
Third, "ranged working together" just means "ranged with line of sight between each other". It's not active teamwork, it doesn't require any effort.
Fourth, I am more than able to solo 3 or even 4 melee players on a regular basis, with the same build. That build is one of the least terrible melee "counters" to ranged yet it is definitely much better at fighting melee than at fighting ranged.
Fifth, do you never see archers or xbowers soloing multiple melee players ? Because I do. I don't see what would be the problem with shielders soloing multiple ranged.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Leshma on December 31, 2013, 12:12:05 pm
Despite having 24 kilos of gear on my back, I can still kite a bit. Movement speed has nothing to do with it. With two quivers I'm slower than most on the battlefield, having 7 ATH or 8 ATH makes little to no difference.
I can kite because of arrow stun, which is the strongest weapon in my arsenal. It helps me kill melee guys who are chasing me, it helps my team when I shoot guys who are fighting them. Bring back old gear weight so I can fight properly with melee weapon, but remove the stun.
The main thing that piss people off is arrow stun, not damage. I can feel the rage of some tincan from a far. Not even using bodkins but still see him fuming because every arrow stops him for few seconds.
Title: Re: Time to end the range whine.
Post by: Tzar on December 31, 2013, 12:29:04 pm
Asking for being able to kite again = removing weight nerf, is like Syria asking to switch out its chemical warfare arsenal with nukes....
Anyways, ima lock this thread now.
It doesn't seem to do any good.
Good luck Leshma with trying to lobby to make Archers immune to inf again.