so my 18-18 build with 120 wpf in 1h 120 wpf in pole is boned? :DWhat's your WM, I'll tell you what you'd have. 6WM will have you at ~113 in each.
We believe what would be most appropriate is reimbursing something like 6 Strength attributes and however many skill points that amounts to(This is currently the plan).No one should have to respec, unless maybe they have 42str or something.
So what about AGI abusers? You just practically destroyed maulers, are you going to nerf the shit out of 3/36 rondel abusers?
Theyre the real cancer with their OPness.
So what about AGI abusers? You just practically destroyed maulers, are you going to nerf the shit out of 3/36 rondel abusers?
Theyre the real cancer with their OPness.
No buff them, I just made a new alt for rondel daggering. Stop nerfing everything I'm playingAnd i wanted to play mauler but i guess its like this these days: visitors can't see pics , please register or login
So what about AGI abusers? You just practically destroyed maulers, are you going to nerf the shit out of 3/36 rondel abusers?They've been nerfed, just need an item patch.
Theyre the real cancer with their OPness.
Sadly, 10PD archer builds are nearly in the same boat although shik thinks they'll be fine.(click to show/hide)
I'm still probably going to try a 45/3 build assuming armor weight wpf reduction doesn't get changed from purely percentage based since using a weapon a don't have any proficiency in doesn't seem that bad with 36/3 currently.
Btw, thanks for restoring overtime on siege in last patch :PCan thank Urist for that, I believe.
it will buff high lvl archers with maxed MW a lot :cry:Not a lot, but it's true, it will be a buff. We're aware, and nerfs aren't off the table to keep effectiveness the same for ranged.
Say I have 50 in 1h wpf, and 159 in archery using the old system. What would that be like in the new system. Any change?Pretty much exactly what you have now, +/- one ore two points in your main.
now desire is going to headshot me more. I don't like this patch.XBow accuracy caps fairly low, actually. I'm fairly sure she's already at the accuracy cap with her current build, assuming she hasn't changed it recently.
I am a balanced build and not biased.There's an interesting relationship between str builds and agility builds which seems to dictate that the more agility builds you get on a server, the better str builds become (not talking about 21/18 or 18/21 builds). Since hp and damage is tied to str, that means str builds have more opponents they only have to hit a couple of times, if not only once, to kill. Meanwhile, with so many agility builds, there are few builds that can do significant damage to you as well. If you look at group fights, str is pretty much the dominant stat, because movement plays less of a role. Unfortunately, there's not really any reason to believe the opposite is true, although it might be, it's certainly not as significant.
however I will miss the pure strength builds, lessening diversity is always a sad thing imo.
also high agi builds are crazy effective atm, and are getting an undeserved buff.
I would have preferred another path to even the ground of agi/str discrepancy (armor weight penalty reduction with increased agi for instance), but am thankful non the less of you guys working on it ofc.
I'm getting absurdly buffed. My main is 18/27 with 9WM.What's interesting San, is that EU players wear a hell of a lot more armor than NA does, but they're also supposed to have more agility. Forgetting the agility part, more armor on na would nerf your build quite a bit, regardless of the wpf buff. You'd have to switch back to the steel pick.
I saw something like this coming, so I tried to suggest a workaround to getting tons of wpf (http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/balancing-strength/) where armor reduces the same amount of wpf at any point so high wpf builds can use a good 5-10 extra points and low wpf builds lose 5-10 points. It was my second time suggesting it much earlier than the date in the link. I guess we'll see how giving me 200wpf pans out.
So what does the change look like? For starters, free wpf from leveling has been removed. Second, the new base wpp (weapon proficiency point) allows for 20 wpf (weapon proficiency) in a single weapon type
What's interesting San, is that EU players wear a hell of a lot more armor than NA does, but they're also supposed to have more agility. Forgetting the agility part, more armor on na would nerf your build quite a bit, regardless of the wpf buff. You'd have to switch back to the steel pick.
I assume that I as a level 35 with 7 WM will end up with less wpf than before because of the comparatively high wpf bonus I had from levels?
Now with that out of the way, we can get to the part where we want the community’s input. Of course there is the obvious “what do you think of the change?” but what we’re more interested in, is what you believe the minimal reimbursement would be for implementing this. We believe what would be most appropriate is reimbursing something like 6 Strength attributes and however many skill points that amounts to(This is currently the plan).
All responses and critiques appreciated(Aside from grammatical ones). Thanks for reading.
Edit 1: I guess I forgot to state this, but your wpf will be reset.
I am a balanced build and not biased.
however I will miss the pure strength builds, lessening diversity is always a sad thing imo.
also high agi builds are crazy effective atm, and are getting an undeserved buff.
I would have preferred another path to even the ground of agi/str discrepancy (armor weight penalty reduction with increased agi for instance), but am thankful non the less of you guys working on it ofc.
reimbursing something like 6 Strength attributes and however many skill points that amounts to(This is currently the plan).
Edit 1: I guess I forgot to state this, but your wpf will be reset.
And when is this being implemented?That's something we all wanna know. So, do tell please!
So im 39-3 on my main and have 120WPF 2h so what will that do to me now? i have 1 Weapon Master and 3 athletics.....Am i being destroyed with this patch?
This is the question i want to see answered
So im 39-3 on my main and have 120WPF 2h so what will that do to me now? i have 1 Weapon Master and 3 athletics.....Am i being destroyed with this patch?
This is the question i want to see answeredCheck the graph I posted, it shows exactly how much wpf you will have with 3 agility and 1 wm.
So im 39-3 on my main and have 120WPF 2h so what will that do to me now? i have 1 Weapon Master and 3 athletics.....Am i being destroyed with this patch?
1:1 split wpf hybrids will have about 5% less wpf in each type. a 50/150 split or a 90/170 is basically the same as what they have now.So in other words: Hybrids are either gonna stay the same or be nerfed?
So instead of 27-18 1h I can have my old 21-24 2h? Cool :D
Btw, now, when there will be mini respec increase difficulty of xbows, so that arbalest require 18 str. No harm done this way :P
Tydeus is there a possibility to get some aggi attributes and their skills reimbursed? because I might have to change some shield or athletic skill to WM to keep my WPF and I don't want to change any of the str skills.At the moment we don't have plans for that, but that's exactly what this thread is for. It might be the case that we need to perhaps, lower all agi based skills by 1 point, and reimburse those points as well.
So in other words: Hybrids are either gonna stay the same or be nerfed?Because I don't believe specialization grants anything, a perfect example is skill to attribute conversions. Skill conversions are the tool of the specialized build, yet it's very hard to argue in their favor. Compare a 20 point conversion character to a 1 point conversion, there's absolutely no reason to believe the 20 point conversion has any meaningful advantage. Yes, this is an extreme case, nevertheless, it's easy to see how two skills are worth more than one attribute. Now it may be the case that the change goes overboard, but I seriously don't think so. The initial formula that I proposed to the devs had 3 agi builds at 60 wpf, but it wasn't deemed to be a strong enough nerf to the classic 39/3 build.
Why? There's already so few hybrids, why would you punish them even more?
I'm getting absurdly buffed. My main is 18/27 with 9WM.
I saw something like this coming, so I tried to suggest a workaround to getting tons of wpf (http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/balancing-strength/) where armor reduces the same amount of wpf at any point so high wpf builds can use a good 5-10 extra points and low wpf builds lose 5-10 points. It was my second time suggesting it much earlier than the date in the link. I guess we'll see how giving me 200wpf pans out.
your swings are going to be slower.
(click to show/hide)
What we needed was to lower wpf of super-str-chars or to add wpf to agi-monkeys. Now with these formulas you have just deleted full-str from game as high PS itself doesn't grant you attractive damage You also need some wpf. Imho lowering the values of lvl 30 full str to like 80 instead of 111 would be good, but going to 20 wpf???
Have you or other dev tried playing with 20wpf and high str? I believe it's going to suck :| I'm not even talking about making it harder, do whatever you want but just don't make 'str builds' another 'heavy lance'!
What I'm talking about are my predictions but I guess the idea of wpf rebalance should be re-thought.
Not even mentioning that fantastic high level 18/24 and 15/27 2h or pole build with awlpike or greatsword or warspear will be even more annoying.
...not to mention high lvl ranged! fucking asscher Steevee with his 18/27 archer build will be even faster and more accurate. All the xbowmen as well...
Instead of nerfing str guys you have simply deleted them and buffed ranged and gheystyle-users it seems...
For most hybrids, there are two possibilities for how this can affect you. If you have an even 1:1 split, you will find yourself having less wpf in both, up until higher WM values. If you have something like a 2:1 split, you will go largely unaffected.
Any plans to balance ranged accuracy stats? They will get a nice buff from this and balanced builds that favour agi will get an unneeded buff imoYes.
...not to mention high lvl ranged! fucking asscher Steevee with his 18/27 archer build will be even faster and more accurate. All the xbowmen as well...(click to show/hide)
Instead of nerfing str guys you have simply deleted them and buffed ranged and gheystyle-users it seems...
soo, basically instead of nerfing \ buffing to balance
you instead said "fuck this class which only a handful of people actually use...everyone else gets a buff"
Cyr Jona Shift Serbutts etc and the million other spamming Agi whores that run circles around us few str whores.
seriously...how many of us out there actually have 36-3 \ 39-3...?
so basically..."fuck diversity...i personally dont like str users to lets remove them? and have EVERYONE go agi?"
well played agi whores, well played
Yes.
Next nerf for ranged incoming.Actually... that would be funny :wink:
I hope that at least you will make in resonable way. It won't be funny if i'll kill more ppl in melee with 2 PS than with my bow...
I'm gonna be pissed if people stop playing high STR characters (particularly the dreaded tincan mauler)
They serve as a natural focal point for a team, because they are easily identifiable juggernauts who excel in teamfights.
Players tend to follow these juggernauts around (particularly if they are doing well) and before you know it, your team is nicely grouped up and ready to shitroll the opposition.
Voila! Accidental teamwork!
Maybe heavy armour should get more of a str requirement so we still see str guys around, and so people aren't armour/agi crutching. I can't imagine people wanting to take high str now when you can get the extra damage from WPF instead of PS and run faster, and you will swing a lot slower with str
It will surely deal with the excessive amount of str builds that we have around right now
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Yes.
Yes.
(click to show/hide)
Auction 09/11/2013 18:13:09 Training Lessons 1,100,001 gold
that is exactly what i am worried about. as i understand it, we will have less overall wpf points as a result of only having 5 wm, thus bringing me below the threshold i need for throwing lances.
Maybe I missed it, but what happens to your existing WPP expenditures? Say you have 120 1h and 100 throwing, but you end up losing wpp; which proficiency loses those points?
If this is handled incorrectly, I could see throwers getting screwed with "your proficiency is too low" message with no recourse.
EDIT-I say no reimbursement of str, but offer my proposed "mini-respecs" in the store ;-) Make those people that have been crutching strength for 2 years with 0 WM at least have to pay some gold to get agi/wm.
Tydeus is there a possibility to get some aggi attributes and their skills reimbursed? because I might have to change some shield or athletic skill to WM to keep my WPF and I don't want to change any of the str skills.
... lowering the damage on stabs f.e. side sword ...dont you dare nerv the side sword again, i stil lcant really use it, but at least one of its attacks now works, rather reduce overall 1h stab speed on all 1h's
...while people may shout at me as 1h agi i wouldnt be objective, then again who is, what i wanted to say is, the only thing about agi based characters which atm is really fucking me up and as i see also happening to others, is that the weapon length to athl ratio is somehow fucked up. This is not seen out of a reality aspect, but out of playability and gameplay blanacing. When you see heavy armors with very long weapons bunny jumping around, outmanouvering agi based classes often in a fashion you have to wonder why you yourself put anything into athletcis ...
also high agi builds are crazy effective atm, and are getting an undeserved buff.
...
... chadz said no, that's why.even he should be allwoed to change his mind, right? :oops:
...I smell biased opinion here :wink: Btw:
@sans
if you look at the graphs carefully, they do nearly as you suggested. It is more dynamic, the more you invest the more you get out of it, but not so much that it would be exponetial, the less you invest the less you get out of it.
Or id i miss your point here?
you need 27 agi and full wpm to get 198 doesn't seem like there will be that many people with those builds?There will be many. Just like rondel dagger became a new thing in crpg once and everybody decided to create his funny-ass STF with rondel, this time people will swap to a lot of agi if it's the new trend :rolleyes:
(click to show/hide)
I'm gonna be pissed if people stop playing high STR characters (particularly the dreaded tincan mauler)
They serve as a natural focal point for a team, because they are easily identifiable juggernauts who excel in teamfights.
Players tend to follow these juggernauts around (particularly if they are doing well) and before you know it, your team is nicely grouped up and ready to shitroll the opposition.
Voila! Accidental teamwork!
Instead of a bunch of cowardly scavengers following a T Rex around, the new accidental teamwork meta will be a pack of velociraptors circling the enemy at blinding speed and pecking away at them until they die.
Tydeus is there a possibility to get some aggi attributes and their skills reimbursed? because I might have to change some shield or athletic skill to WM to keep my WPF and I don't want to change any of the str skills.
There's an interesting relationship between str builds and agility builds which seems to dictate that the more agility builds you get on a server, the better str builds become (not talking about 21/18 or 18/21 builds). Since hp and damage is tied to str, that means str builds have more opponents they only have to hit a couple of times, if not only once, to kill. Meanwhile, with so many agility builds, there are few builds that can do significant damage to you as well. If you look at group fights, str is pretty much the dominant stat, because movement plays less of a role. Unfortunately, there's not really any reason to believe the opposite is true, although it might be, it's certainly not as significant.
As far as the low str, zero WM issue goes, we're aware of it and considering ways to properly reimburse those characters.
Then you'd have a few people saving the respecs. Unless you had a limited window during which you could respec, say a few days.
Alright, this has probably been asked about more than anything else, so here are some examples of what some wpf splits could look like.
8 WM with 24 Agility could give you 184 WPF in one type or...
170/73
167/84
135/135
135/94/94
5 WM with 15 Agility could give you 139 wpf in one type or...
110/81
120/62
97/97
who cares? what difference does it make? are you affected by a guy respeccing now or later?Really? You don't see the issue? As minor as it is, there are people who always min/max and try to create the optimal build in relation with the build trends. This would mean that they get the chance to cherry pick their build. Being forced to dedicate your skills to one build per gen (especially when you're lvl 35+) is good, because then the build trends are more static, meaning the playfield is more even. Metagaming is just tedious, especially stuff like this. I really don't wanna deal with lvl 35 21/24 guys with awlpikes, for example.
Instead of a bunch of cowardly scavengers following a T Rex around, the new accidental teamwork meta will be a pack of velociraptors circling the enemy at blinding speed and pecking away at them until they die.
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Praise be the revolution. Too long Strengh gave TWO boni: melee damage and hitpoints, while Agi had swingspeed stripped, leaving ONE bonus: movement speed. Now that agility has risen to have two boni again, some balance has been restored. The feeling this gives me is like after a big comfortable shit, that satisfied relaxed confort of a job well done.
All hail this day!
Character's of mine needing reset because of this: None.
Win.
Really? You don't see the issue? As minor as it is, there are people who always min/max and try to create the optimal build in relation with the build trends. This would mean that they get the chance to cherry pick their build. Being forced to dedicate your skills to one build per gen (especially when you're lvl 35+) is good, because then the build trends are more static, meaning the playfield is more even. Metagaming is just tedious, especially stuff like this. I really don't wanna deal with lvl 35 21/24 guys with awlpikes, for example.
You're going to have a lot of weird balance issues now. What I would have done was just divided the WPP you get at 30 (250), that gives you 111WPF in one category by 18 agi (which is your target balance build). This way, once you hit 18 WPF, you have the baseline singular WPF.DO NOT FORGET ARMOR! High strenght build are only viable with armor which already cost a lot , and take away wpf from you.
Now, what about high agi builds? Lets examine the most extreme case a 3/36 builds. It would have 500 WPP. That could be a 111/111 split, or 145 with no WM. Let's say he gets 1PS, PT or PD and 12 atheletics. With only enough left for 10WM, sure, he will have just over 200 singular WPF. But with only 1PS, he will not be effective. That build would have 189 WPF with the current system, ~20 WPF will not make a big difference.
On the other extreme, at 36/3 or whatever -/3, you will have 55 WPP which is around 41 singular WPF. With 1WM, they'd then have 61 WPF.
Now let's look at some more balanced scenarios.
24/15 would get about 101 Singular WPF from agility.
18/21 would get 118 Singular WPF from agility.
15/24: 125
12/27: 130
9/30: 134
You should also take in to account that this would not give players higher than level 30 even more WPF which we have in the current system.
Finally!!!! the 36-3 39-3 and worse get screwed.... IT'S ABOUT TIME.
3-36 3-39 etc weren't viable so glad the other end get the same treatment...
Even more happy about this change for Strategus, since this game mode was heavily favouring STR build. (Multiple castle siege without room for maneuver... or stupid random map with hill everywhere that negate 90% of your athletics... :|
Some questions:"Correctly assessed the new meta and adjusted his build accordingly to have tons of WM." I can't say I agree with that assessment at all, actually.
1.) Decoupling free hp from strength seems like an easier solution to this whole affair if your primary aim was to balance strength builds with everyone else. Is there a reason you didn't just go with that?
2.) Can you post the old wpf cost formula as well for the sake of comparison?
3.) Are you preemptively tweaking any weapon speeds in the same patch that this goes live? A server that's 30-50% 180+ wpf longsworders or 180+ wpf awlpikers is going to be even more of a plague than a team of archers and throwers is now.
4.) Are you going to adjust the amount of damage you get from wpf? I was under the impression that every 50 wpf past 100 is about equal to 1 power strike in terms of damage, so someone who gets 180-220 effective wpf is going to be getting the equivalent of ~2 PS on top of much faster swings.
5.) What's the problem with offering full respecs, exactly? If you're going to be making sweeping changes that affect the entire game (as opposed to just one playstyle or one weapon class), why would that not be something on the table? If you're going to say "that would set an unhealthy precedent", it most certainly would not be an issue. It's not like game-wide changes on the level of this one happen with any regularity or frequency.
Finally, I just want to say that it makes little sense to penalize people who have evenly split wpfs when you are already greatly increasing the value of having your wpf in one weapon class. There will be little reason for any pure melee to opt for an even split when it will disadvantage you by 80-110 wpf points (ie the current difference between an archer in melee against a melee in melee) compared to someone who has correctly assessed the new meta and adjusted his build accordingly to have tons of WM. It will be only worthwhile for melee/ranged hybrids.
I am not sold on this change.Any build is about as good/bad as the players skill is. Even 200 wpf does not help if you´re just plain bad at this game.
I can see all this level 34-35 players going for 27 - 30 agi builds with around 200wpf and superfast weapons and we are in territory when game become broken, a lot more phasing and so on...
And fighting bunch of people like this can be really annoying.
Just image server full of Kinngrims. :D
...i dont have 11 WPM, i have 11 shieldskill, so ...
Just image server full of Kinngrims. :D
i dont have 11 WPM, i have 11 shieldskill, so your argument is mute
Nerf for str builds is good and well deserved, buff for agi - high wpf builds... not so much. As few guys said already some very fast weapons are already very hard to block for majority of players, with even higher wpf they will be almost "unblockable" :P I have 18-24 shielder with 174 wpf (6 PS combined with high wpf and MW weapon is more than enough even on EU side). After patch I will have 184 wpf and if I'd change into 15-27 I'd have 198 wpf, 24 wpf more than currently... Even now this build is really strong according to me, espeically with fast weapons liek niuweidao, so I don't think this buff is justified.
I feel like people have forgotten this. WPF increases have a greater affect on slow weapons, than fast ones.
Nice change, I waited a long time for this, maybe have to play again now :)I miss seeing you and cooties on na topping score boards.
You want to create diversity by forcing people to play builds that have been made obsolete by your radical "balancing" patch. Also, you believe this will be the solution to your "kneejerk reactions" and reduced play style variety? The most diverse this game has ever been was 3 years ago when you didn't fuck with balance and game mechanics patch after patch. Yeah, strength builds are popular and effective at the moment, the solution however, isn't reworking the entire game in the opposite direction.
You want to create diversity by forcing people to play builds that have been made obsolete by your radical "balancing" patch. Also, you believe this will be the solution to your "kneejerk reactions" and reduced play style variety? The most diverse this game has ever been was 3 years ago when you didn't fuck with balance and game mechanics patch after patch. Yeah, strength builds are popular and effective at the moment, the solution however, isn't reworking the entire game in the opposite direction.
I'm getting absurdly buffed. My main is 18/27 with 9WM.
I saw something like this coming, so I tried to suggest a workaround to getting tons of wpf (http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/balancing-strength/) where armor reduces the same amount of wpf at any point so high wpf builds can use a good 5-10 extra points and low wpf builds lose 5-10 points. It was my second time suggesting it much earlier than the date in the link. I guess we'll see how giving me 200wpf pans out.
You could always add polearm proficiency to diversify your build as well. That way you have more options to play if you ever get bored of 1h and gives a cav counter as well.
Funny how an extra 20 wpf for 9 WM, and 10 wpf less for 5 WM Hybrid is consider by you to be "reworking the entire game in the opposite direction". Yes, your full STR stacker 36/3 build will be slower, with less wpf. And ? Is it completely impossible ? No. Has hard as a 3/36 build ? Depends.
I'll still like to see additional changes for STR requirements for armor (going to 21 str for some of the higher stuff for example), but that's another matter, and i deeply await the next patch. NErf rondel daggers, longsword speed, awlpike speed, and buff WM while removing free wpf. It's like an early christmas present.
I've seen a lot of people seconding my sentiment (that we should definitely reduce the speed of LOW speed stat users, but not necessarily increase the speed of HIGH speed stat users at the same time)...and wanted to add something...
...my concerns are similar to what others have said about super agi w/ fast weapons creating situations which are bad for general gameplay. One thing I wanted to add is that the faster combat becomes, the more the differences between players pings becomes a factor. Don't get me wrong, I like fast combat, but if you have 70-80 ping now it's already hard to fight a decently fast player with lets say 10-30 ping, even if the skill levels are similar.
--
On a different note - when are we expecting this to be implemented?
Btw, thanks for restoring overtime on siege in last patch :P
Haha xD oh dev's spend so long not implementing WPF change people have wanted so long, now they decide to implement it, the moment i decide i'm safe to go for 45/3 build xD haha. Oh fate is cruel, and agi-whores gonna spam worse than ever.
Dem feels.....
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...Anyone interested in a gen 16 CD key with multiple looms and a cool banner?
Alright, this has probably been asked about more than anything else, so here are some examples of what some wpf splits could look like.
8 WM with 24 Agility could give you 184 WPF in one type or...
170/73
167/84
135/135
135/94/94
5 WM with 15 Agility could give you 139 wpf in one type or...
110/81
120/62
97/97
| str | ps | agi | wm | if | wpfold | wpfnew | damold | damnew |
| 36 | 12 | 3 | 0 | 11 | 111 | 20 | 86.8936 | 76.192 |
| 33 | 11 | 6 | 2 | 8 | 123 | 76 | 84.3944 | 79.0928 |
| 30 | 10 | 9 | 3 | 7 | 130 | 100 | 81.24 | 78 |
| 27 | 9 | 12 | 4 | 6 | 138 | 121 | 78.1216 | 76.3672 |
| 24 | 8 | 15 | 5 | 5 | 146 | 139 | 74.9264 | 74.2376 |
| 21 | 7 | 18 | 6 | 4 | 154 | 155 | 71.6544 | 71.748 |
| 18 | 6 | 21 | 7 | 3 | 163 | 170 | 68.3944 | 69.016 |
| 15 | 5 | 24 | 8 | 2 | 172 | 184 | 65.048 | 66.056 |
| 12 | 4 | 27 | 9 | 1 | 180 | 198 | 61.536 | 62.9616 |
We believe what would be most appropriate is reimbursing something like 6 Strength attributes and however many skill points that amounts to(This is currently the plan).Edit 1: I guess I forgot to state this, but your wpf will be reset.If this is true, then I'll be one happy camper.
i see no problem with the current wpf system. Plus this will make a rondel dagger build with 238 wpf ridiculous, at the moment with 190 it can pretty much 2-3 hit most people with 0 PS, but with the new formula that will change to 1-2.
And why the nerf to STR builds? i thought this was a game of diversity? fuck having to have more agility and a full STR tin can is so rare these days.
Please dont do this
Edit 1: I guess I forgot to state this, but your wpf will be reset.Only wpf or WM too ?
So an archer or an xbower with 21/18 or 18/21 build will have less wpf than he used to have to fight in melee - > so he will fight less in melee ? did you think of that ?
Now with that out of the way, we can get to the part where we want the community’s input. Of course there is the obvious “what do you think of the change?” but what we’re more interested in, is what you believe the minimal reimbursement would be for implementing this. We believe what would be most appropriate is reimbursing something like 6 Strength attributes and however many skill points that amounts to(This is currently the plan). It’s clear that full respects aren’t desired on our end (chadz says no), so what could you get by with, without an excessive amount of QQ? :P
Edit 1: I guess I forgot to state this, but your wpf will be reset.
I just have no idea how this idea will pan out for the average non hybrid player. But imo hybrids are kinda fucked.
...But imo hybrids are kinda fucked.if that would lead to less overall ranged on the servers, then it is a good thing. All other hybrids :(
I just have no idea how this idea will pan out for the average non hybrid player. But imo hybrids are kinda fucked.
6WM will have you at ~113 in each.
For throwers, we can easily change the wpf per PT requirement if that has been deemed necessary(probably should)
my suggestion is to, on top of the previously mentioned reimbursements, reduce all agi based skills by 1 point.
Can you just allow 6 stat points to be adjusted however we like (including skill conversions)? I.e. 3 str+3agi, 3str+6 skills, 12 skills, etc? For instance, I can see a lot of hybrid throwers (4-6 power throw) wanting to ditch throwing now, because they no longer have enough wpf to go around. But none of the reimbursement concepts presented so far allow for those 4-6 points in power throw to be refunded.It's harder to implement and the -6 str and skill reduction has already been coded. Still, I'm not the one deciding the outcome of the final reimbursement (at least not alone), I'm just keeping the conversation going and throwing out my suggestion for what is the most minimally invasive, least game changing approach.
Thanks for your consideration Tydeus.
It's harder to implement and the -6 str and skill reduction has already been coded. Still, I'm not the one deciding the outcome of the final reimbursement (at least not alone), I'm just keeping the conversation going and throwing out my suggestion for what is the most minimally invasive, least game changing approach.
I think some of you need to add or subtract 10-20 wpf from your melee builds(while staying above an effective 100 wpf amount) so you can get a better idea of how much speed were not talking about.
For throwers, wecandid* easily change the wpf per PT requirement if that has been deemed necessary(probably should), as we're already altering other, similar formulas.
What about instead of the -1 to each agility skill, how about a full reimbursement for a single skill of our choosing? This would allow hybrids to drop their PD or PT secondary. After all, a hybrid crossbowman (who already gets the best deal of all the hybrids), gets to easily drop xbow, but a hybrid archer or thrower will be "stuck".Because you're bordering on changes that are analogous to a full respec. We don't want people to change classes but to some extent, it can't be helped. I am highly doubtful that most players will be doing so, especially because crossbowers are the least affected by this patch out of all classes. Regardless of what people may think, xbows just don't require much wpf to reach max accuracy with. It's not like shieldless players will be respeccing to shielded 1hers or hoplites, that would require skills(in could happen, but would require converting str attributes to skills). This leaves us with the only common or easily accessible class change being 2h to poles and vice versa.
Edit 1: I guess I forgot to state this, but your wpf will be reset.
sure lvl 32 archer with no PD :D
Because you're bordering on changes that are analogous to a full respec.
For throwers, wecandid* easily change the wpf per PT requirement if that has been deemed necessary(probably should),
A 24/18 full 2h player will be able to easily respec to 18/24 archer, which is as close to a full class change as possible. Yet a polearm/thrower can't make the much more minor switch to dedicated polearm?Sure, if they're willing to sacrifice something that is already good, for a really poor build(only 4PD when they could have 6 with that amount of str, that's a 28% raw damage loss). This is what I was talking about, it's illogical and ineffective to do this, so I doubt many will, thus it's a non issue. What would be more likely, is that people would convert str attributes to skills and go 18/21. But I can assure you, there's no reason to think this will happen either. A 7WM 154/73 wpf split will remain exactly a 154/73 wpf split after the patch. So again, why use this change to respec from something that is almost completely unharmed, to something that is literally unchanged? A mere 6 wpf loss isn't very convincing.
Here's something that can be scripted: if melee wpf>bow or throwing wpf, refund all PD/PT points. How's that?
The archer/xbowman will always use his ranged weapon over melee even if he has the same melee capabilities, because using ranged weapons is an advantage and using advantages is smart. Crossbowman with 21/18 build is either not a crossbowman or has a fail build. You can call it a melee player with a crossbow.All i know is when i have 3 ps with 90 wpf i am more enticed to go into melee if i think i can influence things than with 0wpf and 0 ps.
Phew, if you want to get rid of your PT buy training lessons for 1 mln gold... :rolleyes:
and the -6 str and skill reduction has already been coded.Don't throw us a bone and then deny us the pleasure chewing on it.
XBow accuracy caps fairly low, actually. I'm fairly sure she's already at the accuracy cap with her current build, assuming she hasn't changed it recently.what is the xbow wpf cap at? just need a number (180?). also, whens this rework supposed to be implemented?
Indeed, what does sadden me, is that low-medium WM hybrids with 1:1, 1:1:1, or some similar wpf splits will be hurt. Unfortunately there isn't a way to keep both of these two where they are. When one type of split gets better the other gets worse. The high ratio splits (2:1 or greater) remain the more important of the types and therefore were chosen to be what was catered to. Most important, because we want archers and crossbowers and especially throwers, to be able(to want) to melee.
I'm confused, we are getting a WPP respec? -6 str points, and -6 skill points that can only be used for retracting strength based skills?At the current moment, with nothing relating to this area having been changed(yet) after the the OP was created, this is how it will work.
1:1 split wpf hybrids will have about 5% less wpf in each type. a 50/150 split or a 90/170 is basically the same as what they have now.
So 18str and 6 agility and 6 riding gets turned into 12 str, 4 agility, 4 riding and you're credited the points.That's where I started being really confused. :o Is that a typo or am I missing something?
At the current moment, with nothing relating to this area having been changed(yet) after the the OP was created, this is how it will work.now you got me totally confused.
The patch will come out and people will log in to begin playing. They will then notice they have 6 more attributes that they can spend and 6 less str than what they had before. They will also notice that any skill points they had that would have required higher values of str than what they currently(the moment after the patch goes live) have, were also refunded. So 18str and 6 agility and 6 riding gets turned into 12 str, 4 agility, 4 riding and you're credited the points.
You're level 34 you suffer a penalty basically(removal of free wpf based on level), but you've also got that triple hybrid build, so the numbers aren't going to be pretty.(click to show/hide)
now you got me totally confused.Haha, very sorry. I corrected it.
why suddenly 2 aggi are reduced and what has riding to do with str??
That's where I started being really confused. :o Is that a typo or am I missing something?Yeah, that was a typo, very sorry.
The 6 STR refund might be a bit too little for some high level players. Doesn't necessarily justify changing it...just thought I'd point that out.
For me personally it's probably enough - but again just wanted to bring this up.
More agi builds? ok...
Maybe if battle is only game mode you play. On siege there're definitely more str builds. But none of those are important when it comes to cRPG balance. Strategus is what they balance for and in strategus everyone is str build with ton of HP and in plate most of the time.
You're level 34 you suffer a penalty basically(removal of free wpf based on level), but you've also got that triple hybrid build, so the numbers aren't going to be pretty.Wait, WHAT!?!?!?
Here are what some of the possible splits would look like.
88/88/88
82/82/98
75/75/108
Lowering STR by 3 and getting one more WM gives...
99/100/100
95/95/108
88/88/118
For the sake of upkeep though, I'd consider making sure your highest effective melee wpf stays above 100.
Haha, very sorry. I corrected it.Yeah, that was a typo, very sorry.
(click to show/hide)
Nice "leet" kills
erh ? Can you translate for me ? (joke about my poor K/D ? :mrgreen: )
Alright, this has probably been asked about more than anything else, so here are some examples of what some wpf splits could look like.
8 WM with 24 Agility could give you 184 WPF in one type or...
170/73
167/84
135/135
135/94/94
5 WM with 15 Agility could give you 139 wpf in one type or...
110/81
120/62
97/97
Sooo... hybrids are fucked then??
I have 6 wm 139 1h and 90 throwing after this patch im fucked....
Well fuckit... dun have time to play anyways, so putting mah stuff in the armory and ima take a leave ciao every1
Sooo... hybrids are fucked then??
I currently have 6 wm 139 1h and 90 throwing after this patch it looks like im fucked....
Well fuckit... dun have time to play anyways, so no more respeccing adventures for me... fighten lvl 35 steamrollers get tiring.. putting mah stuff in the armory and ima take a leave ciao every1
Well, that rework is not that bad(I don't like these str maul builds :P ) but I don't like this, that it will hit a bit damage of yet normal str builds(3 to 5 wm) but agi builds seems to be buffed to much(that jump from ~175 to8WM right now allows you to get 172 WM, after the patch it'll be 184, as per the graph in the OP.200184 wpf + more dmg :| WOW). The thing I don't like the most is nerfing balanced hybrids, that's just wrong. WRONG.
Need to rethink my builds...
Yes.
Hmmm, as far as I've noticed higher WPF seems to affect the length of time I can hold a small reticule, and my arrows go straighter rather than veering off. Increasing this IMHO isn't a huge buff to an archer.You forget that WPF also makes your arrows do more damage.
It's still up to the archer to manage trajectory and timing, which isn't made that much easier.
As long as it doesn't affect strength of hit I don't think melee will notice much of a difference in archers?
reimbursing something like 6 Strength attributes and however many skill points that amounts to(This is currently the plan)
wpf_gained_per_WM_increase = 55 + 20 * new_WM_value
wpf_gained_per_AGI_increase = 14
sum formula: 15+55*WM+20*(WM*(WM+1)/2)+14*AGI
cost formula: floor(.0005*wpf^2+3)
You forget that WPF also makes your arrows do more damage.
Hmmm, as far as I've noticed higher WPF seems to affect the length of time I can hold a small reticule, and my arrows go straighter rather than veering off. Increasing this IMHO isn't a huge buff to an archer.Tested this already with Urist's archery damage calculator.
It's still up to the archer to manage trajectory and timing, which isn't made that much easier.
As long as it doesn't affect strength of hit I don't think melee will notice much of a difference in archers?
You're level 34 you suffer a penalty basically(removal of free wpf based on level), but you've also got that triple hybrid build, so the numbers aren't going to be pretty.
Here are what some of the possible splits would look like.
88/88/88
82/82/98
75/75/108
Lowering STR by 3 and getting one more WM gives...
99/100/100
95/95/108
88/88/118
For the sake of upkeep though, I'd consider making sure your highest effective melee wpf stays above 100.
Haha, very sorry. I corrected it.Yeah, that was a typo, very sorry.
Tested this already with Urist's archery damage calculator.
So if for an 18/27 6PD 9WM archer you think 1.4 (61.30 to 62.69) more raw(meaning you can expect the actual difference to be cut down to half a point after armor) damage is a large difference, then sure. Huge buff. Keep in mind this is 1/3 of the damage you'd gain if we buffed ammo or bows by 1 damage, or 1/6 of what you'd gain by adding 3 more str and 1 more PD. :wink:
Arrow damage is also reduced by distance, dont forget it. Those numbers (if they are accurate) apply only for point plank hit. The further the target the lest the damage.
Think the bigger balance change for 18/27 archers is that they will be able to go 18/24 and more or less maintain the same WPF, freeing up 7 skill points.High conversion builds are never the way to go for maximum effectiveness, instead they're what you do when you choose to specialize in something, and that's what the build is all about. For a higher level character, 18/27 is the same as 18/24 is to a level 30. This probably won't happen though, because the status quo would have been changed. Another way to put it, is that a build's perceived effectiveness(18/27) isn't only about how well it does against other classes, but how well it does in comparison to other similar builds, primarily within its own weapon class(an 18/24 archer build underperforms an 18/27 with a bow, yet also underperforms an 18/21 as a hybrid build and thus outperforms it with a bow). And it's this perceived effectiveness, not actual effectiveness, that we base our decisions upon.
Any way to address this?Yes, but I'm not convinced we should be catering to certain types of hybrids. Does hybridization bring variety to crpg? Yes, absolutely. Should variety be the overwhelming priority and focus in such a way that we might occasionally forsake other gameplay aspects? No. I love variety and I love customization(no one who has taken a look at the item patches this year can honestly state otherwise), but all things are best in moderation. Do I have a problem with double/triple melee hybrids? No. Do I have a problem with melee+ranged/cav hybrids? Yes, these are what worry me. I don't want to nerf ranged or cav, that would be far too broad of an approach with a wide range of consequences.
I think that whole idea to this patch is to force players to retire and change their builds. Because of strategus, everyone is high level and in strategus everyone wears plate which means that massive strat battle lasts longer and gives insane amount of XP. With more agi oriented builds, we'll have less plate in strat and battle will last shorted therefore giving less XP.
Gothic plate and Heavy Plate armor only require 15 strength.
When the changes will be integrated?
Thanks for explaining Ty, I appreciate it.
This is very disappointing for me though since the only thing that kept me engaged in this game for this long was my variety in play styles (together with my thousand alts). If I am being forced to cut down to a simpler build it will take a lot of the fun out of it for me.
Plus in general, the nerf for hybrids seems like it would lead to a simplification in the game with less "class" variety. Is there no way to make the changes without hybrids being negatively affected? If you ask me, diversification should even be buffed, since it sacrifices the min/maxing capabilities of more dedicated "classes". It is also more team oriented to play as a hybrid, since you can switch to whatever role your team is lacking during a battle.
Any way to address this?
XBow accuracy caps fairly low, actually. I'm fairly sure she's already at the accuracy cap with her current build, assuming she hasn't changed it recently.190 for mw arbalest. Still not a dot though.
remove dmg from WPF and we are fineBut for all clases not only ranged.
190 for mw arbalest. Still not a dot though.Like I said, it caps fairly low.
Questions:1) Not all ranged is getting 'buffed' by this rework, and for the ranged that is getting buffed, the effects aren't exactly the same.
1.) As some ( pure ) ranged builds may end up with more wpf than before, while others ( hybrid ) will possibly end up with less, what factor will this "ranged accuracy nerf" be based on ? Will it be case sensitive ( ie. accuracy simply doesnt scale as much as before with high end wpf levels ) so only the people, who actually have very high single wpf get an accuracy rework or will it be a blanket ranged nerf, even though that would mean some ranged hybrids may end up being nerfed twice with this patch ?
2.) Since all classes with high agi and pure builds will get buffed with this patch, not only ranged, why do devs even feel the need to nerf ranged as "compensation" in the first place ?
remove dmg from WPF and we are fine
But for all clases not only ranged.
WPF should affect only accuracy and speed, not dmg.
Tested this already with Urist's archery damage calculator.Damage really isn't going to be affected much for builds we commonly see. The above is an archer build maximizing the wpf increase, but even there, the results are minimal.
So if for an 18/27 6PD 9WM archer you think 1.4 (61.30 to 62.69) more raw(meaning you can expect the actual difference to be cut down to half a point after armor) damage is a large difference, then sure. Huge buff. Keep in mind this is 1/3 of the damage you'd gain if we buffed ammo or bows by 1 damage, or 1/6 of what you'd gain by adding 3 more str and 1 more PD. :wink:
190 for mw arbalest. Still not a dot though.
Like I said, it caps fairly low.1) Not all ranged is getting 'buffed' by this rework, and for the ranged that is getting buffed, the effects aren't exactly the same.pure agi players with rondel have some around 190 wpf( will have over 200)
2) Because certain weapons get much better rewards from the wpf increase than others and this isn't something desirable for all cases. Melee weapon nerfs and buffs are planned as well.
Damage really isn't going to be affected much for builds we commonly see. The above is an archer build maximizing the wpf increase, but even there, the results are minimal.
Please... The game is currently balanced enough to have fun, and the class you play doesn't matter. After this patch, hybrids will die, with all str biased builds (guys like Mendro, Butan, Nikodin etc will have to respec to another build, which will make those play styles die) . And you will buff every guy with 21 agi, aka archers, lancers, rondelmy old friends , ninjas, etc ...Stevee posted that 6 pages ago but everyone ignore archers sooo..
Having a new formula is fucking cool, but not in this way ... both agi and str should get advantages. As Bobby said, damages from WPF should be removed or nerfed to avoid another nerf, but this time on ranged's accuracy and speed.
[...]ninjas, etc ... -> already pretty annoying.[...]Hey!
pure agi players with rondel have some around 190 wpf( will have over 200)You missed the multiple posts from myself and others where I said weapons(particularly the rondel dagger) was getting nerfed. Both in speed, and in damage.
1ps from 3 str + 2 from WPF(if I remember correctly 100 wpf = 1ps)= 3ps
with super high speed bonus we have really high dmg
that change will bring small change to dmg but players will be able to feel difference
You missed the multiple posts from myself and others where I said weapons(particularly the rondel dagger) was getting nerfed. Both in speed, and in damage.
hmmm, so this time developers reacted only few months after sombody suggested it! Compared to suggested 'commander of the team' which took nearly 3 years to implement, we have a nice dev-progress!(click to show/hide)
You missed the multiple posts from myself and others where I said weapons(particularly the rondel dagger) was getting nerfed. Both in speed, and in damage.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Tested this already with Urist's archery damage calculator.Don't trust the damage calculator if that's the results it's showing.
So if for an 18/27 6PD 9WM archer you think 1.4 (61.30 to 62.69) more raw(meaning you can expect the actual difference to be cut down to half a point after armor) damage is a large difference, then sure. Huge buff. Keep in mind this is 1/3 of the damage you'd gain if we buffed ammo or bows by 1 damage, or 1/6 of what you'd gain by adding 3 more str and 1 more PD. :wink:
Don't trust the damage calculator if that's the results it's showing.
Back when I was 2h/archer hybrid (yeah, long time but no archery damage mechanic changes has been mentioned since then), me and shema (who was also archer/2h hybrid) did some damage test on butan while waiting for a strat battle to start. We had identical builds, except I had less archery wpf and more melee. He needed 3-4 headshots to kill butan with a horn bow and bodkins, while I needed 5-6, we only tested it 3-4 times each though. I don't know the mechanics behind it, but the extra damage you get from wpf is very noticeable.
You just validated the need to increase damage and weapon proficiency by saying someone survives 3-6 headshots.Butan survives two throwing lance (teammate) headshots.
Butan survives two throwing lance (teammate) headshots.
hmmm, so this time developers reacted only few months after sombody suggested it! Compared to suggested 'commander of the team' which took nearly 3 years to implement, we have a nice dev-progress!(click to show/hide)
100 effective wpf = 1 PS is a myth. It takes a lot less wpf to match one power strike level. I had 8 WM for two years and now with same build but with 1 WM can feel the massive difference in damage. Check san's posts in guides section, you'll see how much wpf affects damage.Saul was the first to open my eyes, all credit to him. I just made a few functions based on this and came to some of my own conclusions. Take note that this doesn't include the strength/5 damage bonus which is actually quite good, too.
1:1 split wpf hybrids will have about 5% less wpf in each type. a 50/150 split or a 90/170 is basically the same as what they have now.
But for all clases not only ranged.
WPF should affect only accuracy and speed, not dmg.
Yes, but I'm not convinced we should be catering to certain types of hybrids. Does hybridization bring variety to crpg? Yes, absolutely. Should variety be the overwhelming priority and focus in such a way that we might occasionally forsake other gameplay aspects? No. I love variety and I love customization(no one who has taken a look at the item patches this year can honestly state otherwise), but all things are best in moderation. Do I have a problem with double/triple melee hybrids? No. Do I have a problem with melee+ranged/cav hybrids? Yes, these are what worry me. I don't want to nerf ranged or cav, that would be far too broad of an approach with a wide range of consequences.
My issue, is that a 2:1 or 3:1 ranged:melee wpf split is better for gameplay than a 1:1 is. A 1:1 split doesn't have to make nearly as much of a sacrifice as a 3:1 does. Because of this, we have the current status quo which is too inviting to players to do certain melee/ranged hybrid builds, particularly but not limited to, those that involve crossbows. What I'd rather see done, is doing things like rebalancing the crossbow back to how it was pre-nerf, and changing hybrids so that it's less effective for those 1:1 ratio splits, and more effective for the dedicated/3:1 guys. Unfortunately, the current wpf status quo keeps us from doing this and thus limits the viable options a dedicated(specialized) player has to choose from.
Lastly, for melee hybrids the following would be ideal, although no promises are being made. This falls well outside of my realm and requires overlords.
"<Shik> so tydeus
<Shik> wpf in any melee category having partial effect on other melee categories y/n
<Tydeus> yes.
<Shik> the only difficulty is coming up with the right sort of maths
<Shik> to make it make sense
<Shik> probably easier just to have combined melee wpf
"
tldr; this is the tldr version.
Saul was the first to open my eyes, all credit to him. I just made a few functions based on this and came to some of my own conclusions. Take note that this doesn't include the strength/5 damage bonus which is actually quite good, too.As in +20 wpf when you have a low amount, will grant far more damage than +20 wpf when you already have a lot of wpf. Thus adding 18 wpf to archers(14% damage*PD rather than the 8% from PS) when they already have high wpf, amounts to such a small change in raw damage as mentioned in my previous post.
http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/wpf-and-damage/ (http://forum.melee.org/general-discussion/wpf-and-damage/)
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The higher your PS, the more wpf helps your damage. Getting a lot of wpf isn't as effective with very low PS. Wpf differences also seem to result in a larger change on the lower end, too (don't know exactly why for this).
Also, I have a archer/1h/thrower alt, and this is pretty much going to screw up that character.
I really think there should be a way to respec Powerdraw and/or powerthrow so that hybrids like this can choose one or the other.
I feel like people have forgotten this. WPF increases have a greater affect on slow weapons, than fast ones.
Alright, this has probably been asked about more than anything else, so here are some examples of what some wpf splits could look like.
8 WM with 24 Agility could give you 184 WPF in one type or...
170/73
167/84
135/135
135/94/94
5 WM with 15 Agility could give you 139 wpf in one type or...
110/81
120/62
97/97
Worst part is, this patch does more bad then good.WPF per PT requirement has been lowered for the next patch.
TBH: idc about str whores... ive never found them to be an issue. Most of the time they are just free kills because u can dance/spam em to death...
I feels its a shame you end up fucking over us hybrids....
Anyways, this patch just kills throwers and hybrids...
I don't understand the hybrid problem. Doesn't this only affect hybrids under 6WM?Unless they're triple split hybrids, yes.
WPF per PT requirement has been lowered for the next patch.
WPF per PT requirement has been lowered for the next patch.
Unless they're triple split hybrids, yes.
Like me. :(In which case you get 7 WM to have roughly the same and 8WM to have more.
WPF per PT requirement has been lowered for the next patch.
From 13 to _?I'm curious as well.
Also, it would be nice the know the current wpf weight penalty formula to avoid the "your proficiency is too low" message. None of the formulas posted in the game mechanic megathread or various throwing threads are even close to correct for every armor weight combo I've tried.
Thanks
None of the devs get paid for what they are doing, something many people tend to forget when it comes to changes to this mod. So stop expecting so much for this. Just be happy that there are still some people working to improve this mod, although changes take quite some time.
Let's get some patch specifics and a general timeline for release.
1. throwing wpf requirement is changing to _____penis________
2. __fart____, ___butt___, & ___chadz___ are weapons being re-balanced
3. The patch should come out around _____Thursday______
Let's get some patch specifics and a general timeline for release.
1. throwing wpf requirement is changing to ___potato___
2. _C. Sites_, _Flaming Katana_, & _Voulge_ are weapons being re-balanced
3. The patch should come out around _the world .
:)
Let's get some patch specifics and a general timeline for release.
1. throwing wpf requirement is changing to ___potato___
2. _C. Sites_, _Flaming Katana_, & _Voulge_ are weapons being re-balanced
3. The patch should come out around _the world .
:)
WPF per PT requirement has been lowered for the next patch.
11 WPF per PT
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except it's already there?
Go test it. 7 PT +9.6 Skutatos armor, 1.8 Roman Helmet, .8 Rus cav boots(and leather gloves) only needs 100 WPF right now.(exactly, 100)
So it's something more like 12 unless they did a major armor change.
I do believe this will gimp throwers, unless they do make a nice change to the "Not enough WPF" requirement. Its much more important for throwers than it is for the other ranged units.
Any change to throwing wpf requirement needs to be accompanied with the release of the real wpf penalty due to armor weight equation. None of the posted formulas are accurate anymore.
except it's already there?No, it's not. Please refrain from making statements that could easily spread misinformation.
Looks and sounds great. It will surely deal with the excessive amount of str builds that we have around right now, which gives the combat a very slow and sloppy feel on the servers. I would be fine with a reimbursement of 6 attributes, it should be more than enough to deal with the changes of this new formula, unless you have a crazy build of some sorts ofc. I hope this works and creates more diverse melee builds. 1+ from me.
No, it's not. Please refrain from making statements that could easily spread misinformation.
But it isn't 13. Go test it, they ninja edited PD requirements(i mean, it wasn't even a dev that POSTED that info, yet it has been confirmed), so we have assumed they have fidled with throwing requirements as well(me and the other fact checker who keeps the mechanics thread up to date). I know that I went from 105 min to 100 and heavier armor not long after that change. So they have done something, just what, I don't know.This is exactly what I'm talking about. You say it's not 13 as if it's a fact, then later you say something was done but you don't know what. Yes, something was done, that's obvious. Why does it have to be the wpf per pt requirement and why haven't you done your test with a naked character?
Post what it is right now, cause what I posted earlier is what my level 29 thrower alt has and his armor is pretty heavy(12 total weight) and he's got exactly minimum with 7 power throw and that armor.
(that is, unless they really changed armor stuff, but even then, I went from roughly .8 weight helmet to 1.8 weight helmet and lost the minimum required by 5)
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You say it's not 13 as if it's a fact, then later you say something was done but you don't know what. Yes, something was done, that's obvious. Why does it have to be the wpf per pt requirement and why haven't you done your test with a naked character?
except it's already there?
Go test it. 7 PT +9.6 Skutatos armor, 1.8 Roman Helmet, .8 Rus cav boots(and leather gloves) only needs 100 WPF right now.(exactly, 100)
So it's something more like 12 unless they did a major armor change.
I do believe this will gimp throwers, unless they do make a nice change to the "Not enough WPF" requirement. Its much more important for throwers than it is for the other ranged units.
Huh? If you have 100wpf, that equipment gives you 95.6wpf. 7*13 is 91, of course you'd be over...
I was hoping that combat speed would increase not decrease...Good.
Not a lot, but it's true, it will be a buff. We're aware, and nerfs aren't off the table to keep effectiveness the same for ranged.
Tydeus, you said that you will nerf archery to don't give them a free buff, can you include about what (Speed, accuracy, damages from wpf, etc ...) ?
Tell me more about this global melee proficiency :DUrist, Shik and myself came to the conclusion that it would be great to have and it doesn't necessarily require wse2 work(so cmp won't be distracted from his current work). Each of us seems to have come to this conclusion by themselves and at roughly the same time, so it must be a good idea, right? Nothing much to say about it at this point, except that you'll still most likely end up putting *some* points into the other melee proficiencies if you really enjoy changing things up.
Urist, Shik and myself came to the conclusion that it would be great to have and it doesn't necessarily require wse2 work(so cmp won't be distracted from his current work). Each of us seems to have come to this conclusion by themselves and at roughly the same time, so it must be a good idea, right? Nothing much to say about it at this point, except that you'll still most likely end up putting *some* points into the other melee proficiencies if you really enjoy changing things up.
Could still end up getting stopped from seeing the light of day, but I doubt that's how this will end.
Will this come in a separate patch to this new one? Are we months away from the next patch or weeks?It would need to come with the wpf patch.
effective_weight = 2*head+ body+ leg+ 4*hand - 10
It would need to come with the wpf patch.But when WPF patch will come?
But when WPF patch will come?
But when WPF patch will come?
Still would be nice to know if its months or days we're looking atI don't foresee it taking months to be ready, at the very least.
TBH I don't really care how long this takes to implement it doesn't effect us from being able to play now (not like when siege equip was bugged and it was messing with strat). We can just continue to play as normal till this is released.
Thanks for giving us the new formulas before releasing the update so people can update the build calculators and mechanics threads.
(I hope they are working on that rather than just complaining how long it's taking to get a patch)
Would be great if you can keep updating the OP with the new formulas for throwing and archery changes etc.
And I hope you're reducing the ratio WPF/Repairs, otherwise you're going to break out people playing STR build. And its even more of a bitchslap to those who wear heavy armor (as if that didn't suck already).This
This whole discussion seems to lack a definition of terms. Everyone seems to understand the terms "str-build" and "agi-build" in a different way.
Let's try to set those 2 terms with a definition most can agree with. Should make this discussion way easier.
I start: 15/24 is an agi-build. 24/15 is a str-build.
In Battle and in Strat the 24/15 will always outperform the 15/24 with ease - there are always exceptions but most of the time it will be like that.
This whole discussion seems to lack a definition of terms. Everyone seems to understand the terms "str-build" and "agi-build" in a different way.
Let's try to set those 2 terms with a definition most can agree with. Should make this discussion way easier.
I start: 15/24 is an agi-build. 24/15 is a str-build.
In Battle and in Strat the 24/15 will always outperform the 15/24 with ease - there are always exceptions but most of the time it will be like that.
Or Tydeus could tell me if the HBS is getting nerfed!
if i may adapt yourA true balanced build is when agi equ str. On higher levels the margin between agi and str can increase while the build still counts as balanced.
... definition of ... "str-build" and "agi-build"
leq = lesser or equal
geq = greater or equal
equ =equals
15 leq / 24 geq is an agi-build
24 geq /15 leq is a str-build
15 geq / 15 geq goes towards balanced
... Any agi build with 15 str can use all weapons and armors in game ...while not absolutly true, i agree with the thought behind, to increase some weapons/armors str req and some weight values(depending on the weapon length there perhaps too).
In Strat sure but in Battle 15-24 in let's say transitional will outpreform 24-15 in the same gear. I am in favor of plate armors requring atleast 18 str.I would also like that agi based playstyles are more included for strategus tactics, this seems to be mostly achievable only for overland battles and if the clan/faction cares about it.
Having the highest value armors using 18 to 21 str i also would support.Have any of you guys actually thought that maybe this would set a STR constraint on how little you can have if you want a viable strat character? Scaling str requirements up to 18 might not be so bad for battle, but scaling them to 21 would have serious limitations on how viable 12 - 15 str characters can be.
Have any of you guys actually thought that maybe this would set a STR constraint on how little you can have if you want a viable strat character? Scaling str requirements up to 18 might not be so bad for battle, but scaling them to 21 would have serious limitations on how viable 12 - 15 str characters can be.
So armour and str builds the norm in strat? Make changes within strat to limit armour,
Or strat would have to be something besides all plate users?If that is the goal, there are several other ways of reaching those results, many of which do not even have implications outside of strategus.
Or strat would have to be something besides all plate users?
Edit: Armor makes a huge difference in this game, I would actually argue that of all items and character stats, armor value(or effective HP) makes a larger difference in a fight overall, than anything else .
No, they'd just deny those melee who can't wear plate.That is already happening for quite some time. I have been told twice lately that my 15/24 build is useless in Strat. Since then I don't even bother checking the battle list any more.
If that is the goal, there are several other ways of reaching those results, many of which do not even have implications outside of strategus.
Don't really agree with that. Depends on your playstyle, and if you don't move fast enough you severely limit yourself. People don't dominate in Milanese plate on EU1 at least. Strat might be different, but thats to do with the style of fighting you get, less ranged, respawing and limited mobility in the fights
Armour can get a bit strong when people aren't affected by the encumbrance much or for people who move slow even in light-medium armour. Otherwise I feel the weight just isn't worth it for the heavier armours
Have any of you guys actually thought that maybe this would set a STR constraint on how little you can have if you want a viable strat character? Scaling str requirements up to 18 might not be so bad for battle, but scaling them to 21 would have serious limitations on how viable 12 - 15 str characters can be.yes, increasing the need for armies buying more different armors, thereby having a more deversified army and perhaps getting some different tactics. Would that tehn really accure, no idear, but the thought exactly was to get a bit pressure onto the equiping of armies.
Edit: Armor makes a huge difference in this game, I would actually argue that of all items and character stats, armor value(or effective HP) makes a larger difference in a fight overall, than anything else .If you want to keep it mostly as it is, then at least the weigth values to armor res to movement speed ratio needs to be thought over, that + the 2h/pole effect on movement speed.
what you may or may not know, cRPG was always seen as the first step, but the goal was strategus.(click to show/hide)
I loathe the thought that cRPG balance decisions are affected by Strategus.
Can someone be so kind and "Cliff Note" the 27 pages, thanks in advance
v/r
TheAmerican
At least in my mind - and probably 90% of the population's - cRPG is Battle, Siege, DTV, and Duel
Strategus is a side element that needs work (and most people just play it for XP)
Can we have less 6 AGI too ? :rolleyes:
Can we have less 6 AGI too ? :rolleyes:3 should suffice, why do you need more than that?
[...]What's the ratio for those global wpf?
Edit 3: WPF per PT requirement reduced from 13 to 11. Putting wpf into any melee type will grant bonus wpf to the other melee proficiencies.
3 should suffice, why do you need more than that?I will be very grateful even for 3 :D
OP Updated with some mechanics stuff.
Putting wpf into any melee type will grant bonus wpf to the other melee proficiencies.dont play with us and explain it
dont play with us and explain itHow can I properly nerf your items if I never play on EU?
How can I properly nerf your items if I never play on EU?made my day
What's the ratio for those global wpf?Not releasing that yet. One important thing to note about it though, is that it was created to be beneficial for all sorts of splits that a person could do. So a 3:1 melee/melee, and 1:1 melee/melee, a triple melee hybrid, 2 melee +1 ranged, etc. Basically how it works, is that when you put wpf into one melee proficiency, you gain a certain amount of points to both of your other melee proficiencies. So you'll still need to have WM and you'll have to raise the wpf of any type of melee you're serious about using, it just won't be so costly. I might end up giving the exact formula at a later time, but for now, you're going to have to rely on the above text. And because I've already been asked; No, ranged receives no bonus from this what-so-ever.
Tydeus, can we possibly have 8 Strength refunded instead of 6? :mrgreen:
At higher levels (33, 34, 35), 6 might not be enough to adjust to a new build that the user might prefer....
Can't hurt to ask, right?
it was created to be beneficial for all sorts of splits that a person could do. So a 3:1 melee/melee, and 1:1 melee/melee, a triple melee hybrid, 2 melee +1 ranged, etc.
You make me love you again :DI do what I can :D
I do what I can :Dwith 2h wpf?
I used to have a triple hybrid character myself, it's one of my favorite builds.
Oh, and on a side note, alt modes for 2hers should actually be used with this change and the stat buffs they're getting.
with 2h wpf?Not so important any more since you will have some pole wpf just from putting it into 2her.
Oh, and on a side note, alt modes for 2hers should actually be used with this change and the stat buffs they're getting.
Not fair really to even give a respec.
I saw this coming too and went agility focused, strength builds wanted to abuse game mechanics and should continue to sleep in the beds they made.
This is actually a massive nerf to the servers full of +3 Longsword wielders. They will be so paralyzed by the decision between ultra long range spinning lolstabs, and high damage pointe-blank instastabs, that they will just get killed while they stand there mashing X with crippling indecision.
Putting wpf into any melee type will grant bonus wpf to the other melee proficiencies.This is awesome, finally 1/2h weapons might be just enough useful to be named 1/2, and not just a heavy metal stick while holding shield.
Phew, anytime you wanna borrow my +3 Longsword I'll put it in the armoury for you - I can tell you are jelly.
This is actually a massive nerf to the servers full of +3 Longsword wielders. They will be so paralyzed by the decision between ultra long range spinning lolstabs, and high damage pointe-blank instastabs, that they will just get killed while they stand there mashing X with crippling indecision.
I do what I can :DCurses. Now I won't be the only one using the secondary mode anymore :(
I used to have a triple hybrid character myself, it's one of my favorite builds.
Oh, and on a side note, alt modes for 2hers should actually be used with this change and the stat buffs they're getting.
Curses. Now I won't be the only one using the secondary mode anymore :(It will be a necessity if you are really interested in actually using the other proficiencies. It's just something to incentivize and make easier those types of hybrid builds.
What stat buffs, btw? Even more stab damage would be retarded, so I'm assuming more cut/speed?
Also: With the "get secondary melee wpf for free when you take melee wpf", how useful will it still be to still take secondary melee wpf directly?
Not fair really to even give a respec.
I saw this coming too and went agility focused, strength builds wanted to abuse game mechanics and should continue to sleep in the beds they made.
It will be a necessity if you are really interested in actually using the other proficiencies. It's just something to incentivize and make easier those types of hybrid builds.Would it be possible to make it so melee wpf in one category makes melee wpf in others "cheaper"?
Would it be possible to make it so melee wpf in one category makes melee wpf in others "cheaper"?Not without a hell of a lot more work. Just wait a bit till the patch comes, then take a look at how it works. I think people will be satisfied with what we decided on.
Aka, getting 100 wpf takes 200 wpp, but if you got 100 wpf in one melee wpf, than the others only cost, say, 150 wpp to get to 100.
Could also be capped so the reduced price is only for "half" the main wpf or something.
Not without a hell of a lot more work. Just wait a bit till the patch comes, then take a look at how it works. I think people will be satisfied with what we decided on.That was what I thought. Would have been interesting, though.
Abuse what game mechanics you mean being extremely tamky and doing alot of damage but sacrificing all mobility? Id like to know what abuse of game mechanics they have hahaha
I don't think anyone is really complaining about the damage that strength builds do; they do sacrifice mobility to get that damage like you said.
The "abuse of game mechanics" people refer to is the MASSIVE animation sweetspots that are enabled with high power strike. This allows strength builds to effectively swing faster than agility builds, since they can turn so far into their swings that they connect right as the animation is beginning. I don't think taleworlds had 40/3 +3 Miaodao wielders in mind when they came up with the animation sweetspot mechanics.
I've always thought that sweetspot size should be a function of wpf, and not damage.
Since 18/18 would be a nominal, baseline build, that should be fair to all sides in the upcoming change.
None of the proposed "refund" scenarios (yours included) help out the classes most harmed by this change; melee/ranged hybrids (xbow excluded; they basically get a free respec). The refund scenario in the OP allows certain wholesale class changes (such as 2h->archer or polearm->xbow+1h), while excluding much more minor class changes (melee primary+archer secondary->pure melee).
If hybrid xbowmen are allowed to dump their xbow wpf, why can't hybrid archers dump their PD and hybrid throwers dump their PT?
I say have the refund script do the following: If a player's wpf in any melee proficiency is greater than their wpf in archery or throwing, refund their skill points in PD/PT. Otherwise you are going to end up with a lot of melee+ranged hybrids that no longer have the available wpp to support their build.
The patch will make my desired 15/30 build annoying to make with that pesky 2 shield skill in the way since I miss out on a skill point. That's why I need to level up before the big update.
Cause, that's basically more or less full scale respec. My change(and his) are to allow people who put to much, one way or the other, to actually get BACK their skills. What you're asking for is, essentially a repec out of Class 1 into class 2.
My point is that over half the player base effectively get a full scale respec anyway (you can switch from any pure melee class to almost anything else, and from xbow to almost anything else). So the strength 2h that have dominated the game for years get to adopt the latest flavor of the month build for free, while classes that are already weaker (melee+ranged hybrids) have no choice other than a slightly worse version of what they were before.
Using this opportunity to allow melee+ranged hybrids to dump their secondary role cuts down on the overall amount of ranged (which I think everyone wants), while allowing people to escape builds that are potentially screwed up by this patch.
How are you getting hurt? Please explain. And it's also debatable if a hybrid is "weaker" than a non.
(and, while it's not really efficient, my character is actually specced 1h/HX, but I rarely use the xbow. With this change, I'll still be the same, but I'll actually be probably 130/90 which is better than my 140/70.)
I'm fine, because I'm 18/21 and have 7 WM. I'm thinking of the "Huscarl" types (Turboflex build): 27/12 with 5 PT, in medium-heavy armor. That build really isn't viable with the proposed changes anymore, and a lot of these players would rather just drop throwing and be 27/15 pure melee than go 21/18 just to have enough wpf to go around.
You'd only need 55 min plus about like 20 with armor. he'll be fine.
They are also nerfing Archer accuracy with this patch to, to compensate for the wpf change and increase in accuracy that it'll bring.
Why not just simply reduce the bonus given by spending wpf to really high values from 170 ?We're not setting some arbitrary cap on wpf, for any class. Doing that would remove one of the important reasons for doing this wpf rework(Making WM worth getting at higher levels).
You're forgetting the main reason why we need to keep wpf points lower than pre-upkeep patch time, and that's the fact that some players have single digit ping while many have over 70 ping.
Major update to reimbursements. Had a bit of a chat with chadz where I mentioned some concerns I had about the current reimbursements. Before you jump to conclusions or start planning your new builds, please remember to test all future builds with a stf character first. We would really like to avoid knee jerk reactions so again, please make sure you're really testing a build out with a STF before you decide to stick with a specific build for your characters. chadz just confirmed we will in fact be doing full character respecs for everyone. Keep in mind that all item stats are subject to change, don't create a build around one specific weapon that you think is/will be OP, it could very well end up getting changed in the future and you will not be given another free respec.
Good stuff, one concern though: we won't be able to test builds for our level 31+ characters with a STF.but you will get idea how they will work
Good stuff, one concern though: we won't be able to test builds for our level 31+ characters with a STF.Not in one build at a time, no. I plan on leaving 'Tydeus' alone for a while and simply doing multiple tests on my stf to get an approximation of the overall effectiveness of the build I am thinking about switching to.
I still think free respec is a bad idea.
I fear this will lead to everyone going somewhat the same builds when the next item patch.
But then again: who knows?
Major update to reimbursements. Had a bit of a chat with chadz where I mentioned some concerns I had about the current reimbursements. Before you jump to conclusions or start planning your new builds, please remember to test all future builds with a stf character first. We would really like to avoid knee jerk reactions so again, please make sure you're really testing a build out with a STF before you decide to stick with a specific build for your characters. chadz just confirmed we will in fact be doing full character respecs for everyone. Keep in mind that all item stats are subject to change, don't create a build around one specific weapon that you think is/will be OP, it could very well end up getting changed in the future and you will not be given another free respec.
Major update to reimbursements. Had a bit of a chat with chadz where I mentioned some concerns I had about the current reimbursements. Before you jump to conclusions or start planning your new builds, please remember to test all future builds with a stf character first. We would really like to avoid knee jerk reactions so again, please make sure you're really testing a build out with a STF before you decide to stick with a specific build for your characters. chadz just confirmed we will in fact be doing full character respecs for everyone. Keep in mind that all item stats are subject to change, don't create a build around one specific weapon that you think is/will be OP, it could very well end up getting changed in the future and you will not be given another free respec.
Full respec? Lol... gj its total bull**it. Thanks in advance for killing this mod. Was fun!Whats wrong with that for you?
Next time please just dont give a shit about balancing this mod just because of this useless strategus where 95%of ppl playing it is for free easy farming xp and dont give a shit about conquest.
im really disapointed by how the things are going.
Can you guys hear the world's tiniest violin playing for the dude that'll be running around with 200 wpf and a 103 speed weapon? :wink: Maybe I don't want to drop power throw after all; because a lucky spear to the head will probably be my only chance to kill him now. His Liuyedao will have a higher effective speed than a Rondel Dagger wielded with 1wpf.
P.S.-San, what helmet will you wear once you have 15 str?
Bringing everyone to the same kind of build is going to be boring. Thats not crpg. Mod is fine as it is. Thats allwut
They are also nerfing Archer accuracy with this patch to, to compensate for the wpf change and increase in accuracy that it'll bring.
I'm kind of curious about this. Is wpf itself going to increase accuracy, or is it just anticipated that archers will be taking more wpf and applying it to archery?
If I read the changes correctly, archers with 4, 5, or 6 WM will not be getting any more wpf than before, (str archers may be getting less) so unless I'm missing something it wouldn't make sense to decrease accuracy across the board.
So ur saying they wont be affected so much. So why a full respec? LolLots of reasons. Simplicity, equal opportunities for all, you can ensure you aren't harming any player more than another? Then you get into tertiary side effects like a disproportionate number of players being able to switch to ranged/melee+ranged hybrids, rather than ranged/melee + ranged to dedicated melee, which would mean it's inevitably going to increase the number of ranged on the servers(which isn't desirable).
It's what I fear ... I fear that I get almost nothing from the patch, and then, eat a really good nerf right in my face.
Elindor, yes, the effects that each point of wpf grant stay exactly the same.
To put this in perspective, a level 30 character with 3 agility, no weapon master, and 110 polearm proficiency would attack ~5% slower than a level 30 character with 27 agility, 9 weapon master, and 180 polearm proficiency if both characters were to use a speed 94 polearm. The absolute difference in time per attack between these two characters would be ~0.06 seconds. This is significantly less than the 12% difference in attack speed one would expect if agility was providing the purported 0.5% reduction in attack speed per point and the difference of 70 proficiency was ignored.
Gotcha...something interesting to remind people of then is this quote from WaltF4 in the game mechanics megathread:A point of note for this, is that WaltF4 did his tests by seeing how many swings he could do in a minute. This means he was looking at the total time a swing takes from start to finish but in reality, we don't take nearly that long to hit an opponent with our swings. Generally we hit somewhere around 30(early hit thrusts,1h left swing, str builds turning into their swings)-50%. This means that the .1 and .06 second difference gets reduced to an effective .04~ and .02~, respectably.
With that in mind, after the patch, someone with 0 polearm WPF will swing around ~8-10% slower than someone with 180 polearm WPF from what I can tell. This would roughly equate to ~0.10 seconds instead of the previous ~0.06 difference in absolute time per attack between characters.
So, bottom line remains the same people - small differences in WPF between you and your opponent are not going to change speed difference more than a couple percent (and probably less than a tenth of a second).
What this patch will do (as intended) is make it so that people that do not invest hardly anything in WM will be somewhat slower as they should be.
Now, with the new WPF potential you can attain, characters who hit these 200+ wpf may be significantly faster than those with lower WPF...
And someone with 250 WPF will attack about 5% faster than someone with 170 WPF it would appear, or 0.06 seconds difference in absolute time per attack.
Right, so even less difference.
So, Strength builds, just adjust from 0 WM to like 3-4 at least and you should be fine :)
However str archers will take additional WM to get the same wpf they had before, but they will still be less accurate.
BUT agi archers will have more wpf than they did before -- which is what prompts the accuracy nerf.
So we're pretty much getting rid of str archers then.
Didn't Tydeus just say there would be no accuracy nerf, just a draw rate nerf?Yes, but not only that, the wpf per PD penalty formula is changing slightly to reimburse higher pd builds which aren't able to get sufficient WM due to other hidden penalties. :D
Yes, but not only that, the wpf per PD penalty formula is changing slightly to reimburse higher pd builds which aren't able to get sufficient WM due to other hidden penalties. :D
Right, so even less difference.
So, Strength builds, just adjust from 0 WM to like 3-4 at least and you should be fine :)
Tydeus I'd say at this point with the full respec - if we could just know what the relative timelines of the wpf patch and the item adjustments patch will be.They need to be at the same time.
Will they both be at the same time?
Will the wpf patch come well before the item adjustment patch?
They need to be at the same time.
tell me if I m right : I will need more WPF to keep same speed and damages when I Hit than actually ?
tell me if I m right : I will need more WPF to keep same speed and damages when I Hit than actually ?
They need to be at the same time.
So are we removing this arc of death kick and the instant-1h stab whilst we're at it ? ;)
I'm looking forward to the full respec, now my level 34 (35 in 40 million) can be 24/18 instead of 21/18 (max skills)Wow, do you actually think getting 1 PS more is worth losing 5 IF and 2 shield skill? Huh, I doubt that.
Wow, do you actually think getting 1 PS more is worth losing 5 IF and 2 shield skill? Huh, I doubt that.
You'll miss those ironflesh points!
7 hp for 1 PS seems like fair trade off...
Started out promising - ended up being hot air not really changing anything. That's what I read in here by now.No flippin clue about ranged changes, but for melee..
Let's change something with wpf... but let's add an exception here, here, here and here... oh wait, and here.
Should become politician.
(1 skill left over, maybe shield)
full character respecs ！
I like this idea.
And I have the same question. Could I respecify all of my characters?
tydeus categorically stated it will ONLY BE CHARACTERS UNDER LEVEL 30 which get the free respec.thats shit, i feel sorry for any high lvl people being screwed over by this
tydeus categorically stated it will ONLY BE CHARACTERS UNDER LEVEL 30 which get the free respec.Oh god, I'm torn. I don't know whether to +1 or -1 this post.
Oh god, I'm torn. I don't know whether to +1 or -1 this post.
tydeus categorically stated it will ONLY BE CHARACTERS UNDER LEVEL 30 which get the free respec.
chadz just confirmed we will in fact be doing full character respecs for everyone.
tydeus categorically stated it will ONLY BE CHARACTERS UNDER LEVEL 30 which get the free respec.
You should stick to taleworlds forums, that's the place for mentally challenged.
it will be important to let everyone know about the respec in a decent way.. Should probably give out multi-language server messages so casuals who dont read forums dont get left behind..
You're forgetting the main reason why we need to keep wpf points lower than pre-upkeep patch time, and that's the fact that some players have single digit ping while many have over 70 ping. Difference is quite noticeable and it's unfair to reward players based on location.Yeah, I miss the day when chadz said cRPG will not be an agi-fest game to avoid ping advantage.
Whatever you do, as long as cRPG is a "skill" game (read, must block/attack in 1/10's seconds)
It's amazing how the only free respec in the history of cRPG happens exactly when I don't want to respec. :rolleyes:
That's not skill, just good reflexes. Skill is when you beat your enemy by using your brain.
I think Fasader stole 2/3 of our looms back then.
From playing on NA my problem with high ping is mostly the packet loss, fucking hell the amount of times a hit goes through the correct block when I can't possibly ascribe that to a mere 120 ms delay. It's just seems to wrongly interpret my input all the time. I think catering the entire game to those rare few that play with a 150 ping is not a smart move. At the current point a slight speed up seems in order if you ask me, often I feel like a duel is more of a patience match than anything else. Whoever goes craziest to hit the other guy first because all else fails loses. Those fucking boring duellers who just simply right swing with a Great Long Bardiche win a lot of their duels for a reason.
Ever wondered why ranged and pikes have gotten nerf after nerf when other weapons seem to have been touched much less? It is because as average blocking skill increases, the relative deadliness of weapons that ignore blocks (ranged) or rely on forcing people to block two directions at once (support polearms) increases. The killing rate of a 2h sword continously reduces because people get better at blocking. Remember those archers that backpedalled and blocked with their shitty hammers until help turned up? The longspear from 2010 was ridiculously good compared to what it is now, yet the weapon is still amazing these days. People used to win 15 vs 1's while now even the best player has trouble with any gank unless he has a shit ton of athlethics.
We are getting too good for this game. The age of heroes is over because the skill gap between the best player and the average player has been reduced immensely because almost anyone can block. This turns the game into a game of numbers. Whoever brings the most teammates or the teammates with the longest weapons wins. Bad teambalance or banner stacking becomes all the more of a problem because of this. Speeding the game up will counter-act these problems as it increases the kill rate of the individual because people will have more trouble blocking.
In general speeding up the game is a bad thing, all it does is shit on people with bad fps or high pings, this patch won't really speed up the game very much though (however it does shit on hybrids, which I dislike). I'll repeat what I've said before, the game needs more shit like nudges, chambers, jumps, weaponstun (the way weaponstun is implemented is however, idiotic) and kicks, not buffing Germans with nice pcs and great internet.
i can't believe that people are actually suggesting that crpg gets slowed down, it's already massively slower than nativeNative is at Medium by default unless you change it, so I think Medium (where it apparently is right now) is where it should be. I don't know what EU servers set their speed to, and I really don't care. I don't play EU. I can't play EU. Too much ping. It's as simple as that.
why should we make it slower because A - NA players want to play with us and B - people can't block ?!?!?
what is this madness
is the effective wpf based on armor weight formula going to change? is the one from the mechanics thread currently accurate to begin with?
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do you know if repair costs are based on effective wpf or just having 100 is enough? i think i read in this thread it might be effective wpf, which would mean there's pretty much no point in having just 100 wpf unless you're naked or something right? not only because of the tepair, but also because there's some big dropoff in the stats of a weapon that isn't at or above 100 effective wpf?
There is no "big dropoff". There is no "100 wpf threshold".
This is the wpf and powerstrike relation
(WPF*0.01*0.15+0.85)*(power_strike*0.08+1.0)
If you have 99 wpf, your weapon does 99,85% of weapon damage and if you have a 100 wpf it will do a 100%. Try the formula again and make sure you use 0.85 instead of 85. The progression is constant, which means that the difference between 90 and 100 wpf is the same as the difference between 100 and 110. So no need to worry about reaching that magic 100, because there is nothing magic about it.
If you have 99 wpf, your weapon does 99,85% of weapon damage and if you have a 100 wpf it will do a 100%. Try the formula again and make sure you use 0.85 instead of 85. The progression is constant, which means that the difference between 90 and 100 wpf is the same as the difference between 100 and 110. So no need to worry about reaching that magic 100, because there is nothing magic about it.
If someone may inform me.. I read earlier about max accuracy for a ranged weapon. Anyone knows at what wpf 6pt jarids stop making sense?More than is possible to get with either wpf formula.
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chadz just confirmed we will in fact be doing full character respecs for everyone.
Though it's pretty upsetting to hear all the roundel dagger ***** builds won't be punished by it being nurfed.Should never punish players for something like that.
Should never punish players for something like that.
From playing on NA my problem with high ping is mostly the packet loss, fucking hell the amount of times a hit goes through the correct block when I can't possibly ascribe that to a mere 120 ms delay. It's just seems to wrongly interpret my input all the time. I think catering the entire game to those rare few that play with a 150 ping is not a smart move. At the current point a slight speed up seems in order if you ask me, often I feel like a duel is more of a patience match than anything else. Whoever goes craziest to hit the other guy first because all else fails loses. Those fucking boring duellers who just simply right swing with a Great Long Bardiche win a lot of their duels for a reason.
Ever wondered why ranged and pikes have gotten nerf after nerf when other weapons seem to have been touched much less? It is because as average blocking skill increases, the relative deadliness of weapons that ignore blocks (ranged) or rely on forcing people to block two directions at once (support polearms) increases. The killing rate of a 2h sword continously reduces because people get better at blocking. Remember those archers that backpedalled and blocked with their shitty hammers until help turned up? The longspear from 2010 was ridiculously good compared to what it is now, yet the weapon is still amazing these days. People used to win 15 vs 1's while now even the best player has trouble with any gank unless he has a shit ton of athlethics.
We are getting too good for this game. The age of heroes is over because the skill gap between the best player and the average player has been reduced immensely because almost anyone can block. This turns the game into a game of numbers. Whoever brings the most teammates or the teammates with the longest weapons wins. Bad teambalance or banner stacking becomes all the more of a problem because of this. Speeding the game up will counter-act these problems as it increases the kill rate of the individual because people will have more trouble blocking.
From playing on NA my problem with high ping is mostly the packet loss, fucking hell the amount of times a hit goes through the correct block when I can't possibly ascribe that to a mere 120 ms delay. It's just seems to wrongly interpret my input all the time. I think catering the entire game to those rare few that play with a 150 ping is not a smart move. At the current point a slight speed up seems in order if you ask me, often I feel like a duel is more of a patience match than anything else. Whoever goes craziest to hit the other guy first because all else fails loses. Those fucking boring duellers who just simply right swing with a Great Long Bardiche win a lot of their duels for a reason.
Ever wondered why ranged and pikes have gotten nerf after nerf when other weapons seem to have been touched much less? It is because as average blocking skill increases, the relative deadliness of weapons that ignore blocks (ranged) or rely on forcing people to block two directions at once (support polearms) increases. The killing rate of a 2h sword continously reduces because people get better at blocking. Remember those archers that backpedalled and blocked with their shitty hammers until help turned up? The longspear from 2010 was ridiculously good compared to what it is now, yet the weapon is still amazing these days. People used to win 15 vs 1's while now even the best player has trouble with any gank unless he has a shit ton of athlethics.
We are getting too good for this game. The age of heroes is over because the skill gap between the best player and the average player has been reduced immensely because almost anyone can block. This turns the game into a game of numbers. Whoever brings the most teammates or the teammates with the longest weapons wins. Bad teambalance or banner stacking becomes all the more of a problem because of this. Speeding the game up will counter-act these problems as it increases the kill rate of the individual because people will have more trouble blocking.
Just a completely random and unrelated question, throwing spears in double sided lance mode use polearm wpf or throwing wpf?Throwing weapons in melee mode always use melee wpf (1h or pole).
lol what's this talk about catering to high ping players ?!
i'm of the opinion that if you have ping over 70 that's your problem, i don't think that the game should cater to the 5% that have super high ping, rather cater to the majority, and try to give them as fun an experience as possible
TOO MUCH WPF
GG to hybrids
Umm so I am not gonna read through all this but what's the best build now for 1h with a slash weapon to actually do some damage to all the guys in 65+ armor? Was 24-15 before, worked ok.
Rather not drop throwing. Need 5 PT and about 104 throw WPF, or I could live with 4 PT and about 80 throw WPF if needed.You know the requirement changed from 13 to 11 per pt?
lvl 35
Rather not drop throwing. Need 5 PT and about 104 throw WPF, or I could live with 4 PT and about 80 throw WPF if needed.
lvl 35
lol 45 wpf :shock:...so far....aint all that bad :lol:
fuck diamonds, a str whore is forever :twisted:
Ranged got an indirect accuracy buff, time to nerf all missile speeds by 10 and finally introduce skill on both sides of the arrow
Remember that timing and predicting where enemy will be is also a skill.a thought, so that it is more player skill based and less gear based?
Why you want to reduce missile speed, ....
Remember that timing and predicting where enemy will be is also a skill.Exactly because timing and predicting where your target will be is a skill. Reducing missile speed means archers will have to lead targets more, predict their movement, thus making the effectiveness gap between skilled and bad archers bigger. Also makes proper dodging more effective, as it often is not, even though I know how to dodge properly.
Why you want to reduce missile speed, fot top tier bows like rus and long bow arrows are already slow. Tiny bows have higher missile speed...
Exactly because timing and predicting where your target will be is a skill. Reducing missile speed means archers will have to lead targets more, predict their movement, thus making the effectiveness gap between skilled and bad archers bigger. Also makes proper dodging more effective, as it often is not, even though I know how to dodge properly.
Exactly because timing and predicting where your target will be is a skill. Reducing missile speed means archers will have to lead targets more, predict their movement, thus making the effectiveness gap between skilled and bad archers bigger
love it when kinngrimm talks about balance and using skills over gear etc. makes my day :mrgreen:You may or may not remember the guide i wrote/compiled "worth of a player (http://forum.melee.org/beginner's-help-and-guides/the-worth-of-a-player/msg71025/#msg71025)", perhaps it is not all about skill but about who has not his head in his ars :rolleyes:
So choosing a low damage / high missile speed ranged weapon is bad because it gets easier to hit enemies, which however comes at ( wait for it ) the cost of damage ? Hence, lowering the missile speed would be a good thing because it would make ranged more skill based ?
By that logic, cant we just lower the speed rating of all 2h weapons by 20 so 2h gameplay would become A LOOOT more skillbased instead of just spam spam spam ? :mrgreen:
wonder if something in that guide still is of use
Was the insane ranged spam part of the patch-plan?
Werent you going to reduce the effect of wpf on ranged weapons?
Did you ever try to shoot a long range shot in cRPG or ever played range? Just wondering since most whining about range doesn't seem to ever have tried it themselves.I actually tested that very thing recently. Damage falloff from distance is quite minor at the moment. For archery specifically, I tested using bodkin arrows and a MW Long Bow and MW Horn Bow.
Should it be easy?
Should it be easy?
Should it be harder like some 2-h:ers suggest?
Yes.
So choosing a low damage / high missile speed ranged weapon is bad because it gets easier to hit enemies, which however comes at ( wait for it ) the cost of damage ? Hence, lowering the missile speed would be a good thing because it would make ranged more skill based ?
By that logic, cant we just lower the speed rating of all 2h weapons by 20 so 2h gameplay would become A LOOOT more skillbased instead of just spam spam spam ? :mrgreen:
So choosing a low damage / high missile speed ranged weapon is bad because it gets easier to hit enemies, which however comes at ( wait for it ) the cost of damage ? Hence, lowering the missile speed would be a good thing because it would make ranged more skill based ?
By that logic, cant we just lower the speed rating of all 2h weapons by 20 so 2h gameplay would become A LOOOT more skillbased instead of just spam spam spam ? :mrgreen:
The retard is great in this post. Let me show why :
Lower missile speed increases the prevalence of leading which represents much of the difficulty of aiming. This has absolutely nothing do to with damage. Nothing. Zero. Nope. Nada.
This is so stupid I shouldn't even comment, but it looks like you want a reaction so here it goes : the missile speed of ranged weapon is not an equivalent of the speed rating of a melee weapon. Past a certain low threshold, a melee weapon is so slow one cannot reasonably expect any enemy to fail a block against it in a fair fight. Past a certain high threshold, the weapon is so fast blocking it is literally beyond human reflexes. Currently, all melee weapons are within those boundaries.
Which lets me go on about a parallel between ranged and melee weapons when it comes to human reaction time. Have you ever wondered whether it is possible to dodge an arrow based on a reaction starting at the time you hear the arrow releasing sound ? Unless you are further away than the distance where the same archer would need to be lucky to hit you if you stood still because his COF is too large, it won't work. But, you might say, nobody dodges based on the arrow sound. Yes, most people dodge based on the drawing animation, which is completely unreliable as it varies in length between different archers and it's very easy for the same archer to vary the drawing time while keeping just about the same accuracy.
Now, you might say "get a shield lol" which would better apply to Haitians in their struggle with deforestation and increasing soil erosion than to a cRPG melee player struggling with ranged but anyway, it seems that catchphrase is still popular among people that think it makes the slightest bit of sense. But lo and behold, a shield used based on a reaction to the firing sound cannot work either, the projectile being simply too fast.
The retard is great in this post. Let me show why :
Lower missile speed increases the prevalence of leading which represents much of the difficulty of aiming. This has absolutely nothing do to with damage. Nothing. Zero. Nope. Nada.
This is so stupid I shouldn't even comment, but it looks like you want a reaction so here it goes : the missile speed of ranged weapon is not an equivalent of the speed rating of a melee weapon. Past a certain low threshold, a melee weapon is so slow one cannot reasonably expect any enemy to fail a block against it in a fair fight. Past a certain high threshold, the weapon is so fast blocking it is literally beyond human reflexes. Currently, all melee weapons are within those boundaries.
Which lets me go on about a parallel between ranged and melee weapons when it comes to human reaction time. Have you ever wondered whether it is possible to dodge an arrow based on a reaction starting at the time you hear the arrow releasing sound ? Unless you are further away than the distance where the same archer would need to be lucky to hit you if you stood still because his COF is too large, it won't work. But, you might say, nobody dodges based on the arrow sound. Yes, most people dodge based on the drawing animation, which is completely unreliable as it varies in length between different archers and it's very easy for the same archer to vary the drawing time while keeping just about the same accuracy.
Now, you might say "get a shield lol" which would better apply to Haitians in their struggle with deforestation and increasing soil erosion than to a cRPG melee player struggling with ranged but anyway, it seems that catchphrase is still popular among people that think it makes the slightest bit of sense. But lo and behold, a shield used based on a reaction to the firing sound cannot work either, the projectile being simply too fast.
Loads of guys in heavy armour using xbows with good melee skills
Is this true about armor having no impact on the accuracy? Certainly doesn't sound right :?
Also Tydeus will stabs remain as they are or will they be modified.
thx
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
...the missunderstanding maybe in the term "care/carring"
I am not sure how to say this Kafein and I am sure you will excuse me if I may be mistaken but it somehow gives people the impression that you in fact do care about ranged hits, a lot....
All four (1h, 2h, pole, hoplite) stabs are very good, and pretty equally balanced with each other.
Just accept that stabs are powerful for everyone now (as they were historically), and down block a lot? I don't see the problem.
the missunderstanding maybe in the term "care/carring"
a) not giving a shit
b) doesnt make any difference
You XyNox i think took version a) while Kafein version b)
To get to version b) is quite simple, depending on ranged weapon and build(yours and opponents) you maybe dead after 1 to 2 shots, no matter the armor you use. With the amounts of headshots also accure, armor deosnt matter at all, so not carrying about armor when it comes to ranged is quite obvious and others have taken the same conclusion if not to the same extent but the same tendency.
For a second, I was considering to put a sarcasm hint in my post but then I thought, nobody would actually misunderstand that my post is nothing more than a sarcastic retort. It was aimed to be retarded Kafein ... I merely took your words and switched "archery" with "2h" :)
By the way, when we spoke ingame that other day, ( that day when you wrote "full sprint, zigzag and I still get headshot" while I was actually clearly seeing you running in a straight line because i was 2 meters behind you, remember ? ) when I asked you why you never wear armor, you said you just dont care about ranged hits anymore. I want to ask you Kafein:
As long as I can remember, for several years straight now, you come up with the most extraordinary reasons and ideas about why and how ranged needs nerfs. Day in, day out. On top of that, let us take a look at your sig:(click to show/hide)
...
I am not sure how to say this Kafein and I am sure you will excuse me if I may be mistaken but it somehow gives people the impression that you in fact do care about ranged hits, a lot.
I am aware that this is the internet and people are pretty fast when it comes to accusing complete foreigners of all kinds of misdeeds, especially in this community in my humble opinion I am afraid to say. Still, and again I beg your pardon if I judge the situation inadequately, given your eagerness when it comes to raising your opinion regarding ranged ballance in this game and also taking into account your stunning endurance with which you pursue those affairs, I am almost temped to think that you are in fact obsessed with the subject of getting ranged nerfed at all costs.
I am well aware that expressing such outright ludicrous assumptions, especially on the internet as stated above, may yield me an argumentum ad hominem rather then the self-reflexive and rational retort I am looking for. Yet I finally have to ask, dont you think you are overreacting a bit when it comes to ranged Kafein ? If you take stock of yourself and really ask yourself that question, will you be able to answer it with "no" in all honesty? If I can give you the advise without it being taken as choleric from your side, take a break from the game - it sure helped me to enjoy it more. :)
Now if you would excuse me, I will enjoy my new MW espada before my melee capabilities get nerfed again :mrgreen:
Personally, I'd make heavy armor practically immune to light ranged. Maybe with a some kind of IF based thing that allows to shrug off very low non-melee damage if it is not from headshots. That way high str platers will have some compensation for their lost wpf and thus melee ability from the change. Maybe it would be a new role for tin cans, scaring away agi archers like the chickens they are and giving str archers more purpose. It would feel more realistic and I don't really see the need for ranged to be able to bleed platers to death(apart from headshots) like it is neccessary for melee because of the lack of wrestling and ground daggerwork. Other balancers don't agree though.
Personally, I'd make heavy armor practically immune to light ranged.What I have noticed that +3plate and +3heavy gauntlets give so much body armor that only ranged that actually does decent damage are xbows and throwers. Archers with bodkins hurt too, but archers with anything else than bodkins don´t really do any damage. HA´s with low PD strugle to even manage to do enough dmg to stun on hit.
But yeah I agree, BUFF PLATE! :D
Other balancers don't agree though.
However, according to your explanation, it looks like the problems you have with ranged is the mere existence of ranged weapons in the game rather than their actual strengths and potential. Even if ranged would get a blanket 50 % damage, missile- and drawspeed nerf, you would still die to it and your original problem would still remain, which is dying to something you cannot avoid as easily with your build as dying to melees that are in your plain sight. While this may be toning down the negative experiences at your side it would surely come at the severe expense of every ranged player in the game and not a fair one at all for them.
This brings me back to my original advise. Dont get me wrong Kafein. I can understand your hate but ranged inevitably IS in the game and if they would not be able to cause any harm on your side, there would be no point of playing them at all. I am a low-hp, light-armored archer which means that my primary way of attacking can only be achieved by staying stationary for about 1 second or more. You can imagine how much I had to deal with missles in every of my 16 gens as archer. Still, is nerfing ranged really the solution to your problem ? Or may it be just, and there is certainly no intention to insult you hidden in here, your numbing hate that gives you the impression that nerfing ranged would be a suitable punishment for all the suffering they brought upon you, instead of an actual act of balance ?
Ranged will kill people. It is not like I never play on melee alts and stf's and even I find myself yelling "FUCKING RANGED" in ts every now and then. But then I quickly remember what kind of sacrifices they have to make just to be able to use a ranged weapon properly ( well maybe not so much for xbow ).
Frankly, if you taste rage on your tongue when you get shot while attacking a castle, which is probably the very circumstance in which ranged is supposed to shine, then I can wholeheartedly recommend to take a break from the game and relax a bit. Making things not too easy for archers and alike is the responsibility of map makers and proper game modes, like Joker pointed out for a bazillion times ( which I highly approve ) but it certainly is not achieved by panic reactions like blanket banning ranged mobility as we have seen it in the past IMO.
Personally, I'd make heavy armor practically immune to light ranged.Isn't it atm? I made a test some time ago as Horse Archer, Horn Bow +3, Bodkins +3 against Heraldic Transitional Armor +3 and Heavy Gauntlets +3. I needed 27 (TWENTY SEVEN!) body hits to kill my friend with Heraldic armor, and it's not even full plate armor. The thing is, in battle conditions, you can't hit the guy 27 times in a row, you will lose much more arrows to do so. Isn't it enough protection as it is now?
Isn't it atm? I made a test some time ago as Horse Archer, Horn Bow +3, Bodkins +3 against Heraldic Transitional Armor +3 and Heavy Gauntlets +3. I needed 27 (TWENTY SEVEN!) body hits to kill my friend with Heraldic armor, and it's not even full plate armor. The thing is, in battle conditions, you can't hit the guy 27 times in a row, you will lose much more arrows to do so. Isn't it enough protection as it is now?first instal crpg
The only thing I don't really like in current formula is speed bonus from horse, it gives too much final damage imo (more than twice as much damage as standing - you nerfed horse ranged accuracy few months ago instead of changing this bonus). After accuracy nerf it's really hard to hit someone using full speed bonus - most of the times, you don't use even half the speed of your horse while shooting. Hitting someone from time to time with full speed bonus, causes people to cry how OP horse ranged are, because people thinks it's normal HA/HX damage, but it isn't.
Anyway, can you please PLAY some class for a while, before nerfing it just like that, without any knowledge about it? Because not long time ago everyone agreed HA is surely the most underpowered class, but now suddenly HA is OP, and need to be nerfed? Because it has 10 WPF more than before path?
Main reason why people are mad is because one clan made 10 HA chars, using same banner to abuse broken crpg balance system. Maybe fix the balance in first place, and then see how the game will look like?
Those changes wouldnt change the amount of ranged players. Which since it was never balanced to discourage ranged, now in my eyes became a problem. Again, i meanwhile see the amount of ranged players as a problem, not only their stats, builds item values but how many there are actually at any given time on a server.
One solution could be, fix a percentage of ranged weapons per server:
F.e.
- 20% of all players on eu1 maybe ranged or
- 40% of all players on eu2 maybe ranged
You could tweek those numbers on a weekly base, similar to a flavour of the month build ^^. You could do so with any type of weapon and therfor get very intresting overall combinations.
Another thing, maybe it is time to get rid of banner balance or change it in a way, so that most of a class(ranged/Quincy, cav/GK arent mercs nwo also mainly cav players?) wouldnt end up all in one team, but get balanced teams not only on k/d based but "class/weapon type" based. Another annoyance you could get rid of by that, is the flamewars on the servers of none clan members against clans(you know of whom/what i speak there ^^). By default i like the bannerbalance, but not to the cost of unbalanced teams, whihc then map after map dominate. That then is no fun for the remaining folks and either tehy leave discouraged or join on of those clans, good for those clans bad for cRPG.
there is too many agi spamer shielderAs a shielder I would love this change. because Shields break so easy you need at least 5-6 shieldskill. this doesn't leave a lot for STR and PS.
imo add shield skill based on strengh instead of agi ... they have unbreakable shield they are fast and still does tons of damage
so put shield skill on strengh should balance a bit more shielders build coz every shielder is using same kind of agibuild...
there is too many agi spamer shielderi remember a time with less of both, shielders aswell as ranged .. .wonder why both counts increased? While i can see an argument, for 2h/pole changing to shield or ranged, i am not so sure about any other reasons but then to either join the ranged because there is no other way to fight them or to join shield to at least have one side protected ... which but merily is an illusion when it comes to fighting more then one ranged player which is the usual thing you need to do.
imo add shield skill based on strengh instead of agi ... they have unbreakable shield they are fast and still does tons of damage
so put shield skill on strengh should balance a bit more shielders build coz every shielder is using same kind of agibuild...
about the quota of archers when it will be done ppl will ask quota for cavs too ?I try not to be stupid, also i try not to imply others would be.
dont be stupid plz ...
the problem is we dont have eu 4 anymore to split ranged population ...doesnt change a thing in my opinion
edit : an other problem was the uncessary last buff of archersI cant really tell which stats need to be nerved or buffed with ranged, there i have seen others making good and sensible suggestions, i just know, there are too many and a quota might just be 'a' not necessarily the 'best' solution.
now archery is really more easy and accesible to everyone...
this archery buff have been made in the worst way ever but .... only missile speed needed a buff
now horse archers have acces to all op bows from 1 to 5 power draw
those bows have better range and missile speed than rus and long that's realy stupid ...
long and rus are suposed to be long range bows and they have less range than a nomad bow
a quota might just be 'a' not necessarily the 'best' solution.
sure its ok for you butan with your ole tank armour :D if i wear 50-55 body armour i get 2 shot by any and every ranged except some HA with the worst bows :D
Problem isnt shield skill need AGI (if it was STR, you would see STR crutcher with unbreakable shield, thats why it is AGI, even though it would solve the very high ATH problem)
And what makes you think that only shielder should have a very small variation for their build? The variation range compared to pure melee is already smaler because they can convert less skill points(needed for shield).
13 shield characters may be annoying to fight, but they don't really affect the outcome of the round (in either battle or siege), so it's not a balance issue. Besides, they can be easily countered with kicks, nudges, crushthrough, and teamwork (shields only protect roughly your front third arc from melee, regardless of shield skill).
I'm always amazed by the players that run around with solely a longsword (and 2 free slots) then complain about cav, ranged, and/or shielders. Bring a spear, hunting xbow, shield, or axe/maul. Your Longsword is great in a lot of situations, but you can't expect it to be ideal for EVERY situation. Whatever class annoys you most, use your 2 free slots to equip its counter.
Cmon, no one force you to take powerstrike dude. You are absolutely free to do any freak defensive build.
Try to nudge, kick or crushtrough lolshield horseman with a charger-bumper.
If someone obviously is wasting time, his actions are against the offical eu server rules.(click to show/hide)
We're talking about different classes I think. I'm talking about 13 shield rondel trolls. 13 shield skill or 6 shield skill don't make much difference when mounted; if you don't want to get bumped, bring a fauchard or something and rear the horse.
It make huge difference, because 13 shield skill forcefield will make almost imunne to damage your horse too.
Also - with 39 agi you'll have enough wpf to use hunting crossbow. Or darts. Or scythe, or another discouraging weapon.
just put shield skill based on strengh instead of agi to balance retarded agi shielder build
I hit like a girl (yes, I play one too).higher wpf would give you a bit more dmg(dunno what armour you wear), but with 7PS you should hit quite hard...
Have 7 PS and 125 wpf (with synergy bonus) in 2H/Poles/1H (tripple hybrid). Need silly amount of hits to put down anyone armored. Like 4 hits to the head with high damage blunt weapons and stuff like that.
Have you changed the formula or wpf have extra effects on damage these days because with 7 PS I feel like a weakling?
They say people respecced to AGI but every single soviet player won't go down without 6 or 7 very good hits. Is this just me and my inability to execute proper attack or someone else feels this way?
higher wpf would give you a bit more dmg(dunno what armour you wear), but with 7PS you should hit quite hard...
There is a solution - get weapon with higher dmg :P
btw there needs to be done something with these rondel+shield trolls without armour, they can even kill cav... I don't know the builds maybe they have too high shield skill, because of their insane agi, so they are so well protected that often stand unitl almost the end of the round?
Somehow limit the shield skill of agiwhores - smth about STR and shield requirement? For shield with difficulty 3, you need 3 shield skill AND 9 STR too? It doesn't seem odd, you need some muscles to take hits on it and still hold it...
And/or make nudges/shieldbashing/bumps much more powerfull against low str(and maybe also IF) chars, so they are stunned longer, and make nudges of very low STR chars very weak?
Yes, let's make shield skill STR based and destroy their last bit of hope to ever catch an archer.I didn't write about making shield skill based on STR, man....
let us use any shield we want with drawbacks"with drawbacks" That I know we can't do without wse and since cmp is busy and we need what time he does have to be spent on other things, that's not likely going to happen. Although I agree and even proposed such myself several times.
like no forcefield, low resistance, low shieldspeed ect ect
but let us use that HI-TECH piece of engineering(aliens probably involved) so we can stop arrows
Shields with no force fields worked great in Vikingr.
Maybe there is a possibility to leave shieldskill as is( ath based increases durability[maybe increase speed]) and make the shield difficulty str based.i wouldnt be completly opposed to this idear, one of the major setbacks of shields always were you needed to put so many points into it to even be able to use the high tear shields.
So everybody can pick up shields with a weight matching his strenght. And shield skill is still usefull if you don't want your shield to break very fast.
Maybe there is a possibility to leave shieldskill as is( ath based increases durability[maybe increase speed]) and make the shield difficulty str based.Well, that's almost the same what I suggested, but it's more simple and makes sense. You need str to block and hold, but to use it properly(for dedicated shielder) you need shield skill. Thought bucklers need to be balanced to this, because str isn't really important here...
So everybody can pick up shields with a weight matching his strenght. And shield skill is still usefull if you don't want your shield to break very fast.
*Edit* After leveling, I got free wpp. That's why I have a higher wpf than I thought I should.
...Half year later I must say that it was a bad change. The amount of speed-spam on siege is disgusting.
Half year later I must say that it was a bad change. The amount of speed-spam on siege is disgusting.
I still think I would have preferred linear wpf reduction from armour instead of % based and lessening the scaling of WM to ~10 points instead of 7(old) and 14-15(now). I am glad wpf from leveling is gone, though, and 6-9 strength builds were made somewhat viable.
So, it's a good point for you that you can be killed by a katana/any spammy weapon with less than 5 hits without any ability to block the swings ?What makes you think San is unable to block the swings?
So, it's a good point for you that you can be killed by a katana/any spammy weapon with less than 5 hits without any ability to block the swings ?
So, it's a good point for you that you can be killed by a katana/any spammy weapon with less than 5 hits without any ability to block the swings ?
This really isn't that bad of a problem... assuming everyone has 10 ping. :lol:
The problem with increasing combat speed is that it only makes ping more relevant. Plenty of people (west coast NA players, at least) play with an average of 80 ping, and they are placed at a huge disadvantage (more than ever before) after this last patch. Combine high ping with shittier and shittier server lag, and once again the item balancers have taken a step in the right direction for killing off the mod. :rolleyes:
This really isn't that bad of a problem... assuming everyone has 10 ping. :lol:
The problem with increasing combat speed is that it only makes ping more relevant. Plenty of people (west coast NA players, at least) play with an average of 80 ping, and they are placed at a huge disadvantage (more than ever before) after this last patch. Combine high ping with shittier and shittier server lag, and once again the item balancers have taken a step in the right direction for killing off the mod. :rolleyes:
Considering you were for the wpf change in the past from what I remember, I find this kind of funny.
I'm getting absurdly buffed. My main is 18/27 with 9WM.
I saw something like this coming, so I tried to suggest a workaround to getting tons of wpf (http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/balancing-strength/) where armor reduces the same amount of wpf at any point so high wpf builds can use a good 5-10 extra points and low wpf builds lose 5-10 points. It was my second time suggesting it much earlier than the date in the link. I guess we'll see how giving me 200wpf pans out.
Tydeus your fucking dumb as fuck bro. and the 93 other idiots that +1'd you are just as brain dead incompetent as our good ole balancing team.
AN ENTIRE REWORK OF AGI...ALL BECAUSE A HANDFUL OF PLAYERS PLAYED 36-3? WHEN THERE WAS ALREADY A LOT OF 18-24 USERS THAT WERE GREAT AND OP?!?!?
NOW?
EVERYONE IS 18-24!
WE MIGHT AS WELL HAVE A MESSAGE FOR NEW PLAYERS..."WELCOME TO CRPG THE EX-RPG, NO POINT IN ROLE PLAYING, GET 24 AGI OR GET OUT"
GG MOD, SHIT IS DEAD AS FUCK, THE OLD SCHOOL PLAYERS DONT WANT TO PLAY THIS ANYMORE...AND NEW PLAYERS SEE HOW FUCKING RIDICULOUS IT IS DAY 1
well done Tydeus, well fucking done u moron
EVERYONE IS 18-24!
Tydeus your fucking dumb as fuck bro. and the 93 other idiots that +1'd you are just as brain dead incompetent as our good ole balancing team.For having English as your native language, your grammar has a few errors too many to be able to get away with calling someone else a moron.
AN ENTIRE REWORK OF AGI...ALL BECAUSE A HANDFUL OF PLAYERS PLAYED 36-3? WHEN THERE WAS ALREADY A LOT OF 18-24 USERS THAT WERE GREAT AND OP?!?!?
NOW?
EVERYONE IS 18-24!
WE MIGHT AS WELL HAVE A MESSAGE FOR NEW PLAYERS..."WELCOME TO CRPG THE EX-RPG, NO POINT IN ROLE PLAYING, GET 24 AGI OR GET OUT"
GG MOD, SHIT IS DEAD AS FUCK, THE OLD SCHOOL PLAYERS DONT WANT TO PLAY THIS ANYMORE...AND NEW PLAYERS SEE HOW FUCKING RIDICULOUS IT IS DAY 1
well done Tydeus, well fucking done u moron
I'm 18/24 at level 30 and anyone with 8 PS+ one shots me with my 45 body armour.Some archers in EU have more body armour...
I am 21/21. Point disproven?
Some archers in EU have more body armour...
Tydeus your fucking dumb as fuck bro. and the 93 other idiots that +1'd you are just as brain dead incompetent as our good ole balancing team.
AN ENTIRE REWORK OF AGI...ALL BECAUSE A HANDFUL OF PLAYERS PLAYED 36-3? WHEN THERE WAS ALREADY A LOT OF 18-24 USERS THAT WERE GREAT AND OP?!?!?
NOW?
EVERYONE IS 18-24!
WE MIGHT AS WELL HAVE A MESSAGE FOR NEW PLAYERS..."WELCOME TO CRPG THE EX-RPG, NO POINT IN ROLE PLAYING, GET 24 AGI OR GET OUT"
GG MOD, SHIT IS DEAD AS FUCK, THE OLD SCHOOL PLAYERS DONT WANT TO PLAY THIS ANYMORE...AND NEW PLAYERS SEE HOW FUCKING RIDICULOUS IT IS DAY 1
well done Tydeus, well fucking done u moron
Dude, strength is still very strong.(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
Granted, I'm a high level, but I think the point stands.
Wait, after re-reading your post, it appears that you're complaining that 36-3 isn't a viable build. If that's true, I really don't have any words.
Polearms and great swords are really large weapons, and you can use most of them with 18 STR. The selection for 15 STR characters is much more restricted and it is good like this, but I find we should further differentiate the requirements of weapons with 16 diff and more.
You could always lobby for weapons above 18 difficulty.
30 difficulty weapons/armor would be pretty lulzy.
What has Fin spending time on voice files got to do with Tydeus and chadz? They just added it to the patch
They can spend time on what they want..its not like you have any real say in that. They either work on stuff or they don't, and they work on what they want when they want. cRPG is just a mod
Multi system is good anyway. Don't speak for everyone. The game is pretty badly balanced in some ways but again i'm happy as long as someone is having a go at improving it
Players like myself, who donated, arnt just friendly donators, they are paying customersHow did you come up to this bullshit? No, you're not a customer, you're a donator. There's a difference.
CRPG is a product
Fuck that...this aint save the whales ffs, CRPG is a product. I payed for a product. I bought my opinion.
LOL entitled vs paying customer is a long long discussion ive already had in the Diablo 3 community.
Free to play or not, i bought an opinion and you poor lads are going to hear it.
Actually i was foolish enough to spend money on this and donate. If this was just a mod, a knockoff off another product, you would be right. But im now a paying customer, they make money off this, the servers are kept alive through contributions made from players who saw the potential of this mod. Players like myself, who donated, arnt just friendly donators, they are paying customers, This mod has a TON of potential, and i made the risk of helping to fund it, to help it reach its potential.
So, as a paying customer, i will speak my mind freely about this mod, and give it w.e. criticism. If this was just some hopeless mod i absolutely hated every moment of playing...i wouldnt be here posting...the fact is i played and contributed to a project i feel is going rapidly downhill.
Fuck that...this aint save the whales ffs, CRPG is a product. I payed for a product. I bought my opinion.You're completely delusional. cRPG is not a product, if it were, Taleworlds could literally sue us for breaching the terms of use agreement. Please, get the fuck off your high horse already.
LOL entitled vs paying customer is a long long discussion ive already had in the Diablo 3 community.
They think you're a massive cunt too?