The Ranged Problem.

[Thryn]

Crossing out everything that I think is just sarcasm and can be ignored. Please do correct me if there was actually something useful.

I agree; We can never achieve a perfect balance due to the number of calculations going into damage. I also want it to be clear that I never said there was no point to test in a static environment I was just pointing out the things left out and there are many more.

I, like you, wouldn't want faulty tests to affect balance in a poor and illogical way. I am glad you agree that a test like the one you did is just the basic groundwork to continue testing. (which Rico and I have already done)

Hold your horses. You can't hide behind "but you didn't take into consideration ALL of muh factorsss." A test like this helps identify a base level damage output. From this point on, damage calculations deviate from the norm based on things like movement speed, distance, etc. It is completely feasible to determine whether or not something is doing too much damage even from a simple test like this. If I hit someone with snowball and it did half health through plate armor, your first reaction wouldn't be "it was all movement speed." It's also important to point out that a majority of players on EU1 have currently been undergoing heavy crossbow damage testing (unwillingly) and it seems crossbows may be a bit out of line. However, because I believe thorough testing should commence before changes impacting players takes place, I'm perfectly fine with going through all the ropes before implementing changes.

While yes anyone can pick up a xbow if they meet the requirement that is the way it has always been. and it should be changed

 Not saying its ideal but there are other factors to look at when deciding if someone is a dedicated build or not and sacrifices that people make to increase their ability to project damage from further away. what are these factors? you can't just say you're wrong because of x and not give x

I will not argue with your statement because I have always been fundamentally against no investment xbows being able to produce damage the exact same as someone that clearly makes sacrifices and dedicates to the build for ranged gameplay rather than using it as a sidearm which was a common practice until we increased the slots requirements a year ago? almost 2 years ago? idk can't remember an exact date. That's not even where this argument is. This isn't "I'm a dedicated crossbow player and someone who is not can deal as much damage as me." This is literally "every person has to choose a class except for crossbowman." Never thought I'd stand up for archers but shit, the only way you get any effective damage output as an archer is when you're a strength build. You're going to be easier to catch and be fuck all in melee as opposed to some idiot who can get an arbalest, shoot into melee, deal half a person's entire hp, and then charge in.

Let me explain. As damage increases accuracy decreases (there is no way to counter this) Damage effects both reticle size and weight of invested WPF. While accuracy only effects reticle size.
 If we implemented something like PD on top of this formula you'd have a mess. but I already talked to Professor about PD and the possible options there if it were possible.

What I do is irrelevant and yes range and melee both move on the battlefield thank you for that bit of information I don't know what I would have done without it. *sarcasm aside* Its far more likely a Bowman will get additional shots due to their reload speed and the ability to move while reloading. (Just a thought) Here's just a thought, I didn't say anything about changing reload speeds for either bows or crossbows. You said that crossbows only get to fire 1 shot close range. I call bullshit, they run away and reload and they have ample time to fire at range (btw let's not pretend that crossbows don't do damage at range). Now it seems we're at a point where you plan to pick and choose each individual factor to hoist up your argument.

At this point no one has specifically said why we can't make crossbows require power draw other than "messy formula." All of M&B is shitty formulas, put in power draw and make some tweaks. You're goddamn item balancers, test some shit out. As it stands, crossbows have a COMPLETE ADVANTAGE OVER EVERY OTHER CLASS. THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF OVERPOWERED.

Adding power draw to crossbows is a great alternative to the standard "nerf ranged" thread and obviously something needs to be done about this balancing issue.

[Gurnisson]

At this point no one has specifically said why we can't make crossbows require power draw other than "messy formula." All of M&B is shitty formulas, put in power draw and make some tweaks. You're goddamn item balancers, test some shit out. As it stands, crossbows have a COMPLETE ADVANTAGE OVER EVERY OTHER CLASS. THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF OVERPOWERED.

Who are you to make demands? It's not like you're suggesting changes, you're demanding them, claiming your subjective opinions to be correct.

[Thryn]

Who are you to make demands? It's not like you're suggesting changes, you're demanding them, claiming your subjective opinions to be correct.

firstly, i didn't make any demands, i posted some bullshit and brought up the question of ranged in terms balance. now unless you live under a rock, you will realize that the playerbase is conflicted on this issue. the only responses ive gotten so far have been "hard to implement and test" and "i dont feel like crossbow should have power draw." regarding the "hard to formulate damage w/ power draw" argument, my point is that this is the exact job that item balancers are tasked with doing. if item balancers aren't supposed to test ideas and changes, what are they supposed to do?

secondly, balance in and of itself is a subjective matter, it's dependent on how people feel the mod should play, so dont spew this nonsense about subjectivity.

thirdly,

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[Sauce]

Add a power draw to xbow like every other ranged.

[Kadeth]

delet archer, delet xbow, delet thrower, thank me later

[Heibai]

Thryn enlightened me today, please add 6 PD & 6 PT requirement for arb to make it balanced and fair.

[Blackbow]

you should apply as item balancer Thryn.

as archer here is what i think :
first of all i doubt there is still archers with 30 str build (since xp revert)
30 str build mean no fun, very low survivability and playing like an xbower hiding like a russian camper
all my builds have been around 18/24 and 18/21 and believe me atm i do very low damage, but im fine with it... because i play as support

i sugest you to redo your damage test with 18 or 21 str build and see how weak it can be versus armored guys running to you at light speed like if they were naked and on cocain

just please dont do a nerf who will push archers to all play the same build...like we saw in past with everybody 30str build...

now about xbow i know some of item balancers (cough cough Nightingale) always refused to do any change on their favorit weapons and always cry and it finish with no change...
where other ranged weapon got many nerf/buff
how many times i saw ppl crying about getting shot very hard and blame archer when it was an xbower...
so it's maybe time to faith the truth my dear xbow users and accept the fact than something have to  be done!

about powerdraw on xbow from what i know it's not possible the code wont let you doing it...

Personally, I don't think there should be any 0 slot weapons past Hand Axe, but I'd like to know how the community feels about this before I discuss any changes with other balancers.

to me  there is nothing to change with slots... or discuss about!
till we have solution to have 1 bow 2 quiver and a 1h/2h like it is actually i'm fine...
since xp roll back i doubt archers are very dangerous in melee with their low wpf, low ps and no if against so many experimented melee players with full dedicated build
so why would you change slots system ?

[Thryn]

Thryn enlightened me today, please add 6 PD & 6 PT requirement for arb to make it balanced and fair.

lol not power throw as well xd

i think as it stands, if power draw can't be implemented the other options people have suggested ingame are: make it 4 slots, change damage, or something about forcing people to have wpf in crossbow to make it viable

@blackbow yes i don't think anything needs to be done atm to archers, in order to get high damage out of a bow you need to use the highest damage bows + bodkins + high str build to come close to what the arbalest puts out

my point in comparing them was that you need to specifically tailor a build toward high damage to be a powerful archer whereas you can do half a tincan's health reliably with 16 strength and your trusty ARBS

[Gravoth_iii]

Myself and Rico are testing a variety of builds (throwing/archery/crossbow/HA/HX) to see if there are ways to tweak them effectively without completely nerfing dedicated builds out of existence as previous balancers have practiced.[/color]

This i like, and does bring a twitch and a tingle to the corpse of my eagerness to play crpg again. Playing native honestly puts things into perspective, and i wouldnt mind coming back as a shielder if some balancing philosophies like these were implemented.

[Paul]

At this point no one has specifically said why we can't make crossbows require power draw other than "messy formula." All of M&B is shitty formulas, put in power draw and make some tweaks.

Not that I approve any of this but as a messy solution there could powerdraw come into action for reloading only. That means there could a periodical trigger(don't think there is a on_reload trigger) that checks if someone is doing a reloading anim and then disrupts it if the PD requirement(could be max(str_requirement/a-b, 0)) isn't met. Then there also could be an item like a winch or special hook that helps  with  the PD check when having it in the inventory but takes away a slot and adds weight.

[Thryn]

Then there also could be an item like a winch or special hook that helps  with  the PD check when having it in the inventory but takes away a slot and adds weight.

damn thats a hella inventive idea, that kind of brings in a windlass or goatsfoot mechanism into the game. extremely high poundage crossbows required the user to use one of these devices to effectively load them, so it makes sense when considering the arbalest situation.

one guy who builds historical crossbows said this about his 1250lb windlass crossbow:

Myth has it that these things will shoot through 100mm oak planks and all that guff, reality is I am afraid different.  The impact energy of this bow is similar to that of a 150lb English war bow, so enough to kill at distance and sometimes through armour.  The impact energy is around 140J, so a little more than a .22 long rifle round; your basic bullet for rabbits. 

So our medieval ancestors took what they considered to be very powerful weapons onto the battle field that in modern energy delivery terms you would use against rabbits.

[Casul]

On EU crossbows are not that much if an issue tbh, I dont really think it needs to be nerfed.

Power draw should probably not be a requirement, but it could be invested there to increase your reload speed.
Having it on 0 would cause a tremendously long reload time, anything around 3-4 would be the new standard how it is now and anything above would give a small reload speed buff.
To determine the main class crossbowers from the off hand crossbow players.

Anyone with me? something around those lines? yay nay? ok.

edit: Also about the damage, me as high end tank fears 2 things only: couch lances and crossbows.
Both disgusting and gay af, but I believe thats how it should be at least...

[Dionysus]

my point in comparing them was that you need to specifically tailor a build toward high damage to be a powerful archer whereas you can do half a tincan's health reliably with 16 strength and your trusty ARBS

Please put this in the OP.

But I'm not sure I understand the argument. Should a crossbow do less damage than a weapon that can fire more quickly? Or do you believe that there should be more requirements to use a weapon that does more damage, even though it already fires more slowly?

[Thryn]

Please put this in the OP.

But I'm not sure I understand the argument. Should a crossbow do less damage than a weapon that can fire more quickly? Or do you believe that there should be more requirements to use a weapon that does more damage, even though it already fires more slowly?

i think the fire rate vs damage is the question to consider when choosing whether or not you choose crossbow vs archer

the awkward balancing issue is that you can choose to be a crossbowman by fulfilling significantly lower requirements than choosing to be an archer. essentially, you can be an insanely strong hybrid.

[Dionysus]

I understand now. While I don't think it would be a bad idea to increase the requirements to use a crossbow, I personally don't think there is much impetus to now. I really have not encountered very many crossbows, especially those being used by players who are not playing dedicated builds. Maybe I will be a more ardent supporter of such a change if I notice it becomes an issue rather than the possibility it is right now.