New ranged change

[Tzar]

Lets see here...

 

Serious Sam 3: BFE   
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3   
Battlefield 3   
Rage   
Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad   
Resistance 3   
Dead Island   
Call of Juarez
Duke Nukem Forever   
Brink   Splash Damage   
Conduit 2   
Crysis 2   
Homefront   
Red Eclipse   
Killzone 3   Guerrilla Games   
Call of Duty: Black Ops   
UberStrike   
Halo: Reach   
Terrorist Takedown 3   
Quake Live   
Singularity   
Sniper: Ghost Warrior   
Terror Attack: Project Fateh   
Red Steel 2   
Metro 2033   
Operation Wolfsburg   
Battlefield: Bad Company 2   
NecroVisioN: Lost Company   
Aliens vs. Predator   
BioShock 2   
MAG   Zipper Interactive   
The Precursors   Deep Shadows   
Wolfschanze 2   City Interactive      
Rogue Warrior   Rebellion Developments   
Left 4 Dead 2   
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2   
Jonathan Kane: The Protector   
Shattered Horizon   
Painkiller: Resurrection   
Borderlands   Gearbox Software   
Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising   
Stealth Force 2   Midas Interactive      
Halo 3: ODST   Bungie Studios   X360   
Section 8   TimeGate Studios   
Delta Force: Xtreme 2   NovaLogic   
Raven Squad: Operation Hidden Dagger   
Wolfenstein   Raven Software   
Code of Honor 3: Desperate Measures         
Call of Juarez: Bound in Blood   Techland   
Battlefield Heroes

And the list goes on n on n on....

But yet archers still seems to think Mount And Blade war band cRPG is to be the best FPS game out there for some reason  :

Clearly chadz don't want this to be another shooter so why don't u pack your shit folks...

I don't fuckin get it... why don't the archers who wont adapt an does nothing but keep complaining an wanting to turn cRPG into some medieval shooter GTFO an play some of the billion fps games out there with better graphic effects guns ect ect ect....

[CaptainQuantum]

It went from a 75% increase to a 100% increase. Not a big buff to anything worth using.

What accuracy buff are you talking about?

I may have been a bit misleading when I said 175%, the number gets multiplied by 1.75 rather than an increase by 175%. And even with just 100% extra that's your damage (after armour) multiplied by 2, which is significant enough to warrant headshot kills at medium range. I can reliably pull off headshots at 10-20m which is the range I comfortably operate at anyway since I usually stay close to a good melee player so I can support them but get aid from them if I need it.  Even with body shots you stagger people, which is the main role of the archer anyway, to wound and make opening for melee.

The accuracy buff I am talking about is the accuracy buff we got this patch. The bows seem to be more accurate now than they were pre-patch.

I don't think you've been paying attention to the discussion.  You can't accurately aim for the head unless you're really close.  This is what you're probably seeing:

- Archer A aims normally, hits with 50% of their arrows in medium range, 90% of the successful hits hit the body.  Damage is dealt, but few kills.

- Archer B aims high, hits with 20% of the arrows in medium range, but over half of those hit the head and give a kill.  Total damage dealt from this archer might actually be lower than the other guys, but you (seeing the headshots and the kills) think "WOAH THIS ARCHER IS PRO!".

Archer A still does a lot of damage and gets a lot of kills, I aim for the head mostly but sometimes go for this style and gets me a few kills. This style caters more towards the stagger and run technique. This style supports melee a lot more due to the staggers.

Archer B gains their headshots and kills quite easily, but due to a lower hit rate staggers less hence aiding the team less. They also will likely miss when someone dodges.

Both styles are viable, although if you want to be a good archer you will choose to mix up the body shots with the headshots. I myself will body shot when someone is coming straight for me, since that will kill them before they reach me. However when I am aiding infantry and I see someone running in a predictable path I will go for the headshot.

Yeah I was spectating Jambi and noticed that's how he gets a lot of his kills. Most of them are point blank head shots. Hardly ever fires at even a medium range target unless they are completely stationary. So much for that Jambi score proving anything 

If you have to fire at point blank range to sucessfully hit...there is something very wrong.

This is not true at all, Jambi has been tweaking his aim for headshots only for around a month. He seems to be able to aim at medium range and get a reasonable amount of headshots, you just need to know when to shoot for the head and when for the body. Jambi will get most of his kills in close range because he is focused by most people, and hence will not get much chance at the medium range shots. Archery should not be conducted at large ranges either, I have always played archery in close-medium range, any further and it's pointless. I do see people trying to spam arrows across the map which should not be viable since it takes no skill.

So bows are the medieval shotguns? I never knew...

Volley fire in pubby would be completely useless. That's a pretty daft idea Kafein.

In real life bows can be quite good snipers, but this game is about balance and not about "Oh look I fired my bow and the arrow magnetised to that guys face".

[Overdriven]

And the list goes on n on n on....

But yet archers still seems to think Mount And Blade war band cRPG is to be the best FPS game out there for some reason  :

Clearly chadz don't want this to be another shooter so why don't u pack your shit folks...

I don't fuckin get it... why don't the archers who wont adapt an does nothing but keep complaining an wanting to turn cRPG into some medieval shooter GTFO an play some of the billion fps games out there with better graphic effects guns ect ect ect....

Jeez tzar you just keep on going with retarded nonsense don't you.

Because the whole point is to increase skill. If skill is shotgunning people in the head at point blank range, then that's a bloody weird concept. Hitting anyone in the head at even medium range is pretty much pure luck.

This is not true at all, Jambi has been tweaking his aim for headshots only for around a month. He seems to be able to aim at medium range and get a reasonable amount of headshots, you just need to know when to shoot for the head and when for the body. Jambi will get most of his kills in close range because he is focused by most people, and hence will not get much chance at the medium range shots. Archery should not be conducted at large ranges either, I have always played archery in close-medium range, any further and it's pointless. I do see people trying to spam arrows across the map which should not be viable since it takes no skill.

In real life bows can be quite good snipers, but this game is about balance and not about "Oh look I fired my bow and the arrow magnetised to that guys face".

When I watched him he had plenty of chances at medium ranged shots. But he just waited until people came close and headshotted them.

It's pointless because the accuracy is so damn bad. Because of the missle speed shooting at range would still be highly skillfull even if the accuracy was increased because it still requires perfect judgement to get the trajectories right. More skillfull than shooting close. But right now it is ruled by random chance if you just point in the general direction that you should.

[CaptainQuantum]

Jeez tzar you just keep on going with retarded nonsense don't you.

Because the whole point is to increase skill. If skill is shotgunning people in the head at point blank range, then that's a bloody weird concept. Hitting anyone in the head at even medium range is pretty much pure luck.

That is what Tzar does to be honest. You are aware "shot-gunning" with a bow is not possible since you get bumped at the bow range. You don't need to be point blank for a headshot either since that's what you meant, I can pull off headshots reliably at reasonable distances, get your target at about 20m without him focusing on you and if you are good enough enjoy your free kill. This patch is to separate the good from the bad, and it seems to have done that since bad archers are at the bottom of the boards and good archers are at the top.

[CaptainQuantum]

When I watched him he had plenty of chances at medium ranged shots. But he just waited until people came close and headshotted them.

It's pointless because the accuracy is so damn bad. Because of the missle speed shooting at range would still be highly skillfull even if the accuracy was increased because it still requires perfect judgement to get the trajectories right. More skillfull than shooting close. But right now it is ruled by random chance if you just point in the general direction that you should.

The accuracy is not so bad, it's actually not too far from the heavy bows in native now if you have 18/21 or 15/24. It's not random chance if you do it consistently, random chance means unpredictable randomness.

//Sorry for the double post

PS: On headshot pre-patch it was 1.75*1.2*effective damage my mistake I misread the if statement. Also I guess they didn't change the damage equation here but in an earlier stage in damage calculation, so it means that you could actually have a higher effective damage than an extra 100% because more damage gets through the armour.

On a side note: Jambi is actually enjoying the ranged changes, so it's quite clear more than 1 of us thinks this is actually a good move who actually play archery.

[Overdriven]

On a side note: Jambi is actually enjoying the ranged changes, so it's quite clear more than 1 of us thinks this is actually a good move who actually play archery.

That's because it benefits him enourmously on the play style I just described. And anything below 10m or so is shotgunning.

[Dezilagel]

That's because it benefits him enourmously because he doesn't suck at archery

[Adamar]

The devs disregarded both realism and so called ballance with what they have been doing to archery.
And archers in CRPG were never snipers! That's the main feature that drove me to play this mod, the fact that the crosshair is way wider than in native and thus grants us a more realistic challange. But what's the point behind that when damage is so gimped that only a handful of players can score a positive score? And we still have to put up with mindless trolls, both in game and in here, saying that archery is fine, just so that their particular classes dont have to suffer.
It feels quite useless to even adress the dev team at this point, but this issue needs fixing. For once, ballance this mod in a way that each player gets the same chances of inflicting casualties to the enemy team, no matter their class. Which is obviously not the case at present.

Do your own testing if you think Im exagerating about the kill counts, but dont come here feeding crap to people who have first hand experience.

[Overdriven]

Archery is called ranged no? So then it should be used at range.

[Dezilagel]

Archery is called ranged no? So then it should be used at range.

Anything outside melee range is ranged, duh

[CaptainQuantum]

That's because it benefits him enourmously on the play style I just described. And anything below 10m or so is shotgunning.

Then by this definition it's not skill-less, since once a target gets below this range you start to worry and the target will dodge at this range much more. So actually headshotting a target at this range is actually quite hard. This change does not benefit his playstyle solely either since Jambi is possibly the best archer in cRPG, he can easily play any playstyle and does the mixing of the archer A & B style as I mentioned earlier. If it's so easy to play like this then why is Jambi and a few other archers the only ones using it? Like Tzar said, adapt to the change, I would not see it as a nerf since it stops me from being spammed in the body by truly skill-less archers who are firing at me from across the map or just firing randomly into a group or location. 

That's because it benefits him enourmously because he doesn't suck at archery.

Nice edit there

And Overdriven I use a bow at range, I can't stab my twohander's great sword 20m away now can I? As I said I can reliably headshot at 20m and possibly more, so it's not melee range.

But what's the point behind that when damage is so gimped that only a handful of players can score a positive score? And we still have to put up with mindless trolls, both in game and in here, saying that archery is fine, just so that their particular classes dont have to suffer.

You are aware positive means >0? So I hope everyone gets a positive score, what you mean is a non-fractional score, which for archery is hard to get, but it is so for most other classes. The trolls can be annoying but every class gets it, how many times have I seen people call Phyrex a 2h spamming noob? I lost count, and that's aimed at one of the best two handers in Europe.

Do your own testing if you think Im exagerating about the kill counts, but dont come here feeding crap to people who have first hand experience.

I did my own, I play archery on my alt. I have no looms and hence I have a huge disadvantage since looms have more importance for a ranged char, still I get good scores as an archer, if I am in the right mind-set I can outscore Jambi sometimes. Archery is fine and that's from my testing.

[Overdriven]

Then by this definition it's not skill-less, since once a target gets below this range you start to worry and the target will dodge at this range much more. So actually headshotting a target at this range is actually quite hard. This change does not benefit his playstyle solely either since Jambi is possibly the best archer in cRPG, he can easily play any playstyle and does the mixing of the archer A & B style as I mentioned earlier. If it's so easy to play like this then why is Jambi and a few other archers the only ones using it? Like Tzar said, adapt to the change, I would not see it as a nerf since it stops me from being spammed in the body by truly skill-less archers who are firing at me from across the map or just firing randomly into a group or location. 


Nice edit there

And Overdriven I use a bow at range, I can't stab my twohander's great sword 20m away now can I? As I said I can reliably headshot at 20m and possibly more, so it's not melee range.

Because most archers try to use it at a decent range. As soon as anyone comes close they chicken out and put more distance between them and the target. Jambi has the close shooting thing down yes. I didn't say it was skillless obviously it still requires skill, just that if you removed the random chances, scoring successful hits at range would be more skillfull, especially since people dodge at that range as well. I just think long ranged archer is a little to punished here.

20m is pretty much the start of medium range. That's not even a particularly large distance. Melee could close that gap in no time at all.

[Dezilagel]

risk vs. reward

If you don't have the balls to stay near your target then you shouldn't do massive damage.

Simple as that.

[CaptainQuantum]

If you don't have the balls to stay near your target then you shouldn't do massive damage.

Exactly, ranged shouldn't be about running around and firing at that last guy until you have ran out of arrows. For example if a shielder reaches me I don't run away I take the risk to sidestep his shield and sometimes hit, if I fail I manual block until I can get some range again through use of my team mates, if it hits I am free to try again or get back to my team.

[Overdriven]

When did I say anything about massive damage? Even getting a bodyshot on any body at long range is incredibly difficult with the current accuracy.