Author Topic: Shielder (offensive)  (Read 36837 times)

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Offline zagibu

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Shielder (offensive)
« on: June 11, 2011, 02:28:10 pm »
+10
This guide is not very up to date. The tactics still apply, but for the character build, note this: Weapon Master skill is currently not that important, if you choose one of the faster weapons. This means you can either go for a 21/18 build and wear a bit more armor, or stick with the 24/15 build and put some or all of the points into Iron Flesh instead of Weapon Master.

Also, a new build has become very popular that is more agi focused, better armored and uses the fast, short weapons with high damage, like the steel pick. Note that it's currently mostly experienced players with already triple loomed weapons, who use those builds, but feel free to give one of the following a try: 15/21, 15/24, 12/24, 12/27.


We already have an excellent defensive shielder guide. Now, I've rolled 1h + shield after having played 2h or pole for a long time, so I thought I'd write down my impressions. This, with the help of other 1h + shield players, shall become an offensive shielder guide.

First of all, don't get frustrated if you can't get an even K/D before level 25. Maybe it was my inexperience with sword and board or the fact I was using heavier armor at first, but I was pretty much useless before that level. As a 2h, I can usually "break even" at levels 12 - 15, so it's not just because I'm a bad player.

CHARACTER

Now, for 1h and shield, it is important to have enough speed, both movement and swing speed. You don't want to get circled by 2h/pole, you have to keep up with backpedaling agi spammers and you obviously need the swing speed to get a hit or two in from time to time, or your shield will break, and you will be reduced to a handicapped 2h build (manual blocking with shorter reach, lighter weapon and lower damage).
I recommend 15 AGI with 5 Shield, 5 Athletics and 5 Weaponmaster. Now this might sound a bit low, considering I just talked about how important speed is. The reason why these values still make you fast enough is because I also recommend fighting with light gear, not more than 15-16kg (including shield and weapon). Don't rely on armor, your shield is your armor. If you want to wear the same armor as 2h or pole players, you need more AGI than them, because the extra weight of your shield slows you down. I think this is the most important thing for 1h and shield characters.

15 AGI also means you can go rather high in strength. I use 24 STR and 8 Powerstrike. This adds enough extra HP without IF that I usually don't die in 1 hit. It also means my own hits will hurt quite a lot. It's important to have high damage on an offensive character. With 8 PS I can 2-hit kill most anyone with backhand blows to the head, and often I only need 1 hit. It also reduces the chance of glancing blows, which are a death sentence otherwise.

Character build

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 24
    Agility: 15
    Hit points: 59

    Skills to attributes: 8

    Ironflesh: 0
    Power Strike: 8
    Shield: 5
    Athletics: 5
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 0
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 5

    One Handed: 146
    Two Handed: 1
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 1
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 1



Variation build by Aemaelius and firmitas

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 21
    Agility: 15
    Hit points: 70

    Skills to attributes: 2

    Ironflesh: 7
    Power Strike: 7
    Shield: 5
    Athletics: 5
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 0
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 5

    One Handed: 146
    Two Handed: 1
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 1
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 1


This build should help you survive a bit, while sacrificing a little offensive power. You have 70 HP instead of 59, which means you probably won't ever be killed in one blow (except from headshots, of course). The decreased strength also means you can carry less, though, so you must tweak your equipment further to find the new sweetspot. Personally I don't like this build so much, as in my opinion, the increased HP doesn't help in a lot of situations, because if you get hit once, you are probably already in a situation where they will kill you anyway (because someone surprised you, or they circled you). It might help a bit against archers who got on your side, though. Or against friendly fire. In general, your shield should take all the damage, and you, none.

EQUIPMENT

I already wrote about the light armor I use. It consists of a Skullcap, Padded Jack, Leather Gloves and Leather Boots. I also have a set of slightly heavier armor consisting of Mail Coif, White Tunic Over Mail, Mail Mittens and Mail Chausses, but it already slows me down considerably. I rarely use it.

As a shield, I use a Heavy Heater Shield. This is mostly because I think it looks cool. You could actually go with a lighter shield like the Knightly Kite, Knightly Heater or Elite Cavalry Shield. Or you could use a Huscarl's Shield for the better coverage. Norman shields also have quite good stats, if you can live with the look. I find that all those shields last long enough against non-axe weapons. If an axer heads your way, you have to put your shield on your back anyway, unless you use the Steel or Heavy Board Shield with more than 5 Shield skill. But then you'd better read the defensive shielder guide.

Now for weapons I use either a Knightly Arming Sword or a Military Pick. There are many good swords, some actually better than my choice, but I prefer European-style swords. Some less obvious choices include the Military Cleaver, Shashka and Arabian Cavalry Sword. Some of those swords do not have stabs, which can be a pro or a con, depending on how good you are at controlling your swings. You see, an accidental stab when you are close to someone will probably kill you, because the stab takes a long time to recover from, if you bounce on their armor. And you will bounce with stab close on almost every time, unless you know what you're doing. That's why some players fight exclusively with stab-less weapons like the Scimitar and Elite Scimitar.
As for non-sword weapons, I can recommed the Military Pick, the (Broad) One Handed Battle Axe and the Military Hammer. The pick has very good damage against armored targets, the axe is excellent at destroying shields and the hammer has knockdown, which can get you a free follow-up hit. If you feel the Military Hammer is too slow for you, use an Iberian Mace. Of course, since 1h weapons are only 1 slot, you can carry multiple, e.g. an axe with high cut and bonus against shield and a hammer with good armor penetration. Just play around with different loadouts and see what weight still works for you.
I know a lot of 1h players use the Steel Pick or Warhammer. In my opininon, these weapons are too short. It means you either miss swings (which will kill you), or you will have to constantly push into your enemy (which reduces your battle awareness). Another disadvantage of short weapons is the fact that against fast opponents, even if you constantly try to facehug them, they will evade far enough to strike twice, before you are in reach again, which means your shield will take more hits and break faster.
I tried to use them for extended periods of time, but I was simply not as effective as with longer weapons. It is worth to try them, though, since your mileage might vary, and they do a lot of damage, especially if loomed. For me, 70cm was the absolutely shortest length I could be effective with (wait for incoming penis jokes).

Heirlooming is pretty important for all 1h weapons, because their damage levels are located around the 2-hit falloff. A MW might make the difference between 3-hitting or 2-hitting most enemies. Check it in the cRPG damage calculator, 24 str, 8 PS, 140 WPF, 30-37 cut against 40-45 armor. It varies around 50-65 damage in two hits on average (for cut damage): http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm

As a side arm, you can consider a crossbow with steel bolts. They can still be fairly useful, especially on siege, even with no WPF invested. I recommend against sacrificing 1h WPF, though, because if you go much below 130, katana spammers might start to get a hit in before your return strike after you blocked.
Another helpful sidearm, especially for cav maps, is a pike or other form of spear. If you use the pike or similarly long spears, note that they can't be sheathed, so your character will drop them, when you switch to the shield + 1h weapon.
Any sidearm means additional weight, which slows you down. Either drop it before heading into melee, or adjust your equipment to the point you still feel fast enough with it on your back.

Equipment

   Armor: Anything below 7-10 kg (all 4 armor pieces), go for style, not protection
   Shield: Knightly Kite/Heater, Heavy Kite/Heater, Elite Cavalry, Huscarl's or the (Heavy) Norman Shields
   Sword: Knightly Arming, Nordic Champion's, Elite Scimitar, Scimitar, Arabian Cavalry, Military Cleaver, Shashka, many more choices
   Other Weapons: Military Pick, (Broad) One Handed Battle Axe, Military Hammer or Iberian Mace

TACTICS

Now, some tactics for shielders:

- Remember, you have an autoblock: use it. Push into enemy formations like a battering ram, run circles among them and let your allies strike their confused backsides. You might die in the process, but this tactic actually wins battles. You can also protect other team mates, e.g. when they are hacking a door down. Remember to jump, when the archer is located on higher ground, or you won't catch the arrow.

- Keep moving. Especially in tight situations, if you keep moving, those guys in the second row doing overheads with their long weapons will not be able to hit you, if you move around. Change direction abruptly and frequently, don't run regular circles, or they will predict your position.

- Bump those pesky ranged. If you run into ranged opponents with your shield up, you will bump them and they will stagger, unable to shoot. Don't try to hit them before the bump, or they might get a shot off, straight in your face.

- Don't fall for feints. Good 2h/pole players will try to get you into rythm, then break it by feinting. Before you have learnt to abort your own swings midair, only swing back when you hear the hit on your shield.

- Don't get circled. Even in 1 vs 1 situations, 2h/pole and other shielders will try to circle you. If you don't use a Huscarl's Shield, your sides will not be well protected, and if you don't pay attention, they will simply strike past your shield.

- Be wary of the kick. Expert players will try to kickslash you. You can avoid this by always strafing a little. Even if you run up to someone, just before you reach him, start moving to either side a little. Not only will you be able to avoid the kick, you might even get enough to one side to get a hit in.

- Backpedal and sidestep. Against aggressive players, especially steel pick users, at first backpedal. Then suddenly start moving forward and also strafe to one side. You will often be able to get on their side enough so their shield doesn't protect them anymore. It's like Judo, turn their force to their disadvantage.

- Always attack the unaware player in the second row. If two or more players attack you, backpedal. They will try to circle you, but since you are fast enough, you can evade them by sidestepping while backpedaling. If you do so, one player will continue to hit your shield, while the other will be out of reach for a while. Wait for a hit on your shield, then start pushing forward through the gap between them and strike at the player who was previously out of reach. This works 90% of the time and you will even be able to do it multiple times against the same set of enemies. Immediately after having struck at the farther opponent, turn around and restart the backpedaling.

- Vary your swings. Be patient. Even expert blockers will miss a block eventually, if you vary your swings. Of course, this only works in 1 vs 1 against non-axers. If you do get a hit in, try a follow-up hit immediately. It works more often than not, especially if you follow up with a different swing.

- Use feints yourself. Especially against other shielders. The block-swing-block rythm can lull your opponents. Try to break it with your own feints. Against non-shielders, backhand feint -> overhead works very well. In general, most players can't block overheads as well as side swings. Another good feint/move is to strike at thin air on purpose and follow it up with a second swing immediately. Many players are ready to block your first swing, then are surprised that you missed and will try a delayed return swing. It's a bit risky though, especially against spammers who never block anyway. They will just mow you down.

- Keep the pressure up. If you are outnumbering your opponents, constantly push into your enemy with your shield. Don't strike. Focus on blocking the attacks of your enemy, while your allies circle him. After the first one of your allies has hit home, spam your opponent into the ground.

- Never let your allies down. Non-shielders rely on you. If you are engaged with an enemy, they will count on you continuing to block his swings and will let their guard down in order to gain more offensive power (also called spam). Don't stop blocking your enemy until he is down. If you retreat only for a sec, he will take the chance to slash at your allies. They will hate you for it.

- Know your different swings. The backhand slash has the shortest reach, but a high chance to hit the head. It also almost hits immediately, if you strafe your opponent on the right. The overhead slash obviously has the highest chance to hit the head. Use it against opponents without helmet, and you will be able to kill them in one blow. The side swing has a surprising reach, but it's kind of slow and has a high chance to bounce, if it is not perfectly aimed. If you use one of the longer swords, you might be able to surprise the shorter 2h users with its reach. The stab has an own section below.

- If you wield a sword with stab, make use of it. The stab can be a good duel starter. Most 2h/pole will expect you to block their first swing, so with good timing, you can get a stab in. You can also try to get even more reach by jumping before the stab. This way you might also hit their head more easily, which often results in a 1-hit kill. A stab in general is a risky move, though, because if not properly timed, it has a high chance of glancing off. Close on, you have to start the stab looking away from the enemy 90° to either side, then turn and guide the stab into their body. It works like when some piker stabs you at face distance, which means guiding the stab into their feet will lower the chance of glancing further.

- Don't unlearn your manual block. If you are in a duel against a mediocre player, it can be good training to put the shield on your back. You must be able to manual block, even as a shielder. Your shield will not help against axers, and even against regular 2h/pole, it will break eventually, so you better be able to block manually.

- Cav is your weakness. You only have short weapons, and you wear light armor. On a cav map, try to group up with spearmen. You can actually play the blind fool and attract them, then when they get close, turn around and run past the spearman, so they will impale themselves on his long stick. But if you are alone, or with other fellows of the same build, you will die. Even their bumps will hurt you. You can try to carry a light spear, but yeah, it's additional weight. Or you could carry a pike and drop it before you go into melee against infantry. You can drop lighter spears, too, of course.

So, that's it for me. I'm sure more veteran shield players have different opinions and more tips for offensive shielders, so I'm looking forward to hearing of them. As a conclusion, I want to repeat the most important thing I learnt as a shielder:

Your shield is your armor. And don't forget that it's also a weapon. There is nothing more pathetic than timid shielders.

Thanks to Camaris for mentioning the Scimitars, I always forget them, because I don't like the look of them.
Thanks to Fluffy_Muffin for noticing the mixup of WPF.
Thanks to Aemaelius and firmitas for the suggestion of the 21/15 build.
Thanks to Spawny for mentioning the weakness against cav.
Thanks to Mala for mentioning the possibility of carrying a spear against cav.
Thanks to Aemaelius for mentioning the crossbow possibility as sidearm.
Thanks to rustyspoon and Trikipum for various helpful contributions.
Thanks to Rhygar666 for mentioning another disadvantage of short weapons.
Thanks to SgtTeeth for formatting advice.
Thanks to dangah for mentioning how bumpalicious shields are.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 05:42:22 pm by zagibu »
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Offline Camaris

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2011, 02:40:46 pm »
0
Nice guide.
Atm best weapon for 1h-Shields are Scimitars/Elite Scimitars.

Those are the opponents i fear most of ALL enemys on the field atm.
Sometimes they hit so fast i cant get a block up after the first hit.

Offline zagibu

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2011, 03:14:01 pm »
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No veteran shielders with other opinions / additions?
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Offline Shablagoo

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 03:44:08 am »
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I just learned the stab thing a few days ago.  I never really bothered with weapons with a thrust attack until I started messing with the arabian cav sword.  I noticed a lot of 2h and polearm users would just walk right at me with an attack already chambered and since they outranged me I would typically just block it.  With the stab you can actually get in and headshot them before they get their attack off.  Seems to surprise a lot of people.

Offline Rhygar666

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 09:54:40 am »
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15 agj just sucks for a shielder.
your shield breaks from 1 or 2 hits from a two hander
youll also get outspammed from anything cuz your slow as hell.

now rip my comment apart :mrgreen:
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Offline zagibu

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2011, 11:34:30 am »
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Well, neither my Knightly Kite nor my Heavy Heater Shield break in one or two hits. It takes much more, even against Flamberge.

And I don't get outspammed with 146 WPF and a Military Hammer (96 spd). You just can't wear heavy armor in addition to a heavy shield.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 02:55:01 pm by zagibu »
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Offline Spawny

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2011, 12:03:38 pm »
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The build you posted is my favourite. I use it with a nuieweidao or whatever it's called. 88 reach and 33 cut damage with 100+ speed. Couple that with a fast shield like the 100 speed elite cav or knightly heater and you're by far fast enough to keep up with anyone, including 27 agility ninja's (if you do your footwork right).

Try it yourself: Pick a weapon and a heavy board shield. Play a few round and then do the same with a faster shield. It's not just the movement speed, everything feels sluggish.

There's 1 major disadvantage when using light armour with a 1h/shield build and that's cavalry. They really can bumb you to death, as the little armour you have doesn't protect well against full speed courser hits.
Skilled lancers will always kill you. Horse archers will kill you. You only really have a chance if you're up against 1h/cav and you have a sword with a thrust.

Optionally, you can always bring a polearm of some sort. 1h+small shield is just 2 slots and you wear light armour, so you hardly have upkeep. Why not bring an awlpike?
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Offline Mala

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2011, 01:14:52 pm »
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Mostly i use a spear or warspear as backup, they are quite fast and i need them only to stop the horse. Works quite good against medicore cavalry.

Offline Fluffy_Muffin

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2011, 01:20:11 pm »
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I just noticed you had full polearm wpf but later in the post you say you use Knightly Arming Sword or a Military Pick. So shouldnt you have full one hand wpf?
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Offline Spawny

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2011, 02:01:22 pm »
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Mostly i use a spear or warspear as backup, they are quite fast and i need them only to stop the horse. Works quite good against medicore cavalry.

mediocre is the key-word here. A lancer who knows the range of his weapon will kill you when you try to stop his horse with a much shorter spear.

BUT, most cav turn and pick another target when they see a long stick with a pointy end.
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Offline Tristan

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2011, 07:20:52 pm »
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I started as a shielder and sucked.
Played two-hander and learned to block.
Then became a cavalry man in order to kill
And I ended up as a shielder because of strategus.

I completely agree with your guide. I have very little to add.

A variation of your build is 21 str but with 7 IF. Don a heavy armor and go tank and make people attack you so your friends can do the killing.
This is however much more defensive shield style and I actually think less effective.

I like to compare the good offensive shielder with a wiper. You block and maneuver lulling the enemy to sleep and then suddenly strike for a lot of damage.
And as you say learn to block. You don't want to waste your shield against axe-men and against very good duelers you are faster if you do not use your shield (of course you then have to be a decent dueller yourself!).

Do not get to sad if you suck early on. Lvl 25 is need for a shielder. I actually often use a pike until I reach lvl 25 because the shielder is of so little value until then.

For sidearms I like either a crosbow with steel bolts or war spear depending on situation. The war spear works well with shield with no penalties (compared to awlpike and other such weapons).
You may also choose a shield and a variation of 1h weapons depending on enemies. pick for armor bashin, axe for shield bashing and sword for duels.

I use a Masterwork Elite Scimitar. However there are many other good sword and I might think the langes messer is statswise a better weapon. (Any one want to trade?)
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Offline rustyspoon

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2011, 05:28:07 pm »
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I agree with the 21 str and 7 IF. Best shielder build IMO. Since shielders are slower than their 2h and pole counterparts it's a lot easier to get outnumbered. Being able to take a few extra hits is handy when you're doing the "weave through the crowd and slash heads move". Using medium armor you're still fast, do a lot of damage and can tank like a champ.

If you're going up against a good player, it's often a good idea to take a couple hits on your shield to learn their rhythm. It can also lull them into a false sense of security if they think you're a turtler.

With str based 1h builds I prefer swords with a thrust. I generally prefer swords because of their range and speed. Also if you're good at spin thrusting, you can thrust all day long and it often catches opponents off guard.

If I ever carry any other weapon it's the super-long pike which I drop when I get into melee range. Helps kill off the initial horse charge. I found that carrying other weapons slows down movement too much and weapon switching is also an easy way for opponents to get hits in.

It is a common misconception that slow shields slow down your attack and feint speeds. They don't. They DO affect your movement speed however, which is a major point in attacking. I currently use a Masterworked Heavy Round which is ALMOST as good as a standard Huscarl but takes up 1 slot.

Another important note, unless you are running ALWAYS have either your shield up or a swing primed. You block MUCH faster if your weapon is raised than if it is down.

I also think it's a good idea to have an alt that doesn't use a shield and play it often to keep your manual blocking skills fresh. Don't want your manual blocking to atrophy when you're easy-mode-ing your way to victory!
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 05:34:19 pm by rustyspoon »
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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2011, 05:27:54 am »
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I agree with the build, mostly. I did dump some points into Ironflesh so i could take a hit. Also, i find that you can pretty much go up to Mail w/Surcoat in weight along with 2.5 weight helms and Mail Gauntlets. For weapon and shield, I use the Heavy Kite Shield or Huscarl Shield. Weapons that i find good are the Italian Sword (decent damage, range, price), Steel Pick (Great against tin-cans, but very short reach), Grosse Messer (Great cut Damage, but again, short reach )and the Broad One Handed Battle Axe (Good damage, good against shields, low range)Most of these have low reach but do monstrous amounts of damage when you get in close(so you can invest some more points into agility and athletics to get in close quicker) I would advise against plate for an offensive shielder, it slows you down tremendously so you won't go anywhere to kill people. I would use medium armor.
Lvl: 30 Gen:1
Strength    20    
Agility    15    
Weapon proficiency
Available points: 0
One Handed    137    8 points per wpf
Two Handed    1    1 points per wpf
Polearm    1    1 point per wpf
Archery    1    1 point per wpf
Crossbow 1    1 point per wpf
Throwing    1    1 point per wpf
Skills
Available points: 0
Iron Flesh    6    3 strength per level
Power Strike    6    3 strength per level
Shield    5    3 agility per level
Athletics    5    3 agility per level
Riding    1    3 agility per level
Horse Archery    0    6 agility per level
Power Draw    0    3 strength per level
Power Throw    3    3 strength per level
Weapon Master    5    3 agility per level
Armor-
Head:Bascinet with Nose Guard-Weight:2.5-Armor:46H
Body:Heraldic Mail with Surcoat-Weight:13-Armor:46B:14L
Arms:Mail Gauntlets-Weight:.5-Armor:6B
Feet:Splinted Leather Greaves over Mail-Weight:2-Armor:30L

I do just fine in this gear, move fast and get lots of kills (1.7:1 average KDR) Cost is not bad and you can stay alive after one hit with this gear.
On a similar note, it is imperative to carry smoke bombs. Archers get confused because they're so ineffective that they pause to wonder why, so they end up being as effective as intended.

Offline ManOfWar

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2011, 06:43:55 am »
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This is indeed a good build for this, very good guide bravo.

I always wonder though how much of a difference all that IF would make
Just a soldier

Offline firmitas

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Re: Shielder (offensive)
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2011, 06:50:15 am »
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I actually don't like your build in comparison to other builds:

For a 30 level character with max WPF for one handed weapon, and a weapon giving 30 points of cut damage on a 10 level armor you get the following table:

Str/Agi   PS.IF   Dam   HP    Dam Ch  HP.Gain        Tot.Gain

18/18     6.6     42     65      0            0                   0

21/15     7.7     45     70     7.14%    7.69%           14.84%

24/12     8.8     47     75     11.90%  15.38%           27.29%

24/15     8.0     48     59     14.29%   -9.23%           5.05%

27/12     9.2     50     66     19.05%   1.54%           20.59%

All these percentage gains and loses are versus the 18/18 build. In order words this exercise measures the average damage and Hit Points capacity you gain or lose with the different PS, IF, and WPF combination each build yields in relation to the original 18/18 build.

If you were to compare the 21/15 to the 24/15 build you would see that even though you gain 6.67 percent of more damage capacity with your build, you nonetheless lose 15.71 percent in Hit Points. This net commutative loss of 9.05 percent comes with no increase in other attributes: you will not run any faster, you will not have better shields. Yes you will swing faster, but almost immeasurably.

No if you are going to sacrifice 8 skills points I would go with the 27/12 build. Your attack power increases dramatically, your hit points marginally, and your swing strike speed minimally. Yes, running speed is your main casualty--you should run twenty percent slower if I am extrapolating WaltF4's findings correctly, but then again, if you like speed you should go with the 21/15 build.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 07:59:39 am by firmitas »
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